Magicka Sorc vs DK Reflective Scales

Minalan · January 2019

What is all this about sorcs being forced to run master staff and reach? That's certainly a good option, but it's by no means BIS optimal this patch. You're trading two pieces front bar over having two full five piece sets and a monster set there.

I agree they need to return cage damage on break again, because right now there's no point to using it.

Galarthor · January 2019

yodased wrote: »

Everyone has access to keeping the fight in melee if they want though. Silver leash pulls,warden teleport thing, sorcs have hurricane and streak, templars have toppling charge. Anyone can slot invasion or stampede or snares whatever.

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

Minalan wrote: »

What is all this about sorcs being forced to run master staff and reach? That's certainly a good option, but it's by no means BIS optimal this patch. You're trading two pieces front bar over having two full five piece sets and a monster set there.

I agree they need to return cage damage on break again, because right now there's no point to using it.

You kinda answered your question there yourself: There is no point in using Rune Cage since ZOS turned it into utter garbage. And there aren't really many alternatives for it, except Destructive Reach. Sure you could also go for streak, but that also stuns yourself and has you facing away from the target. You could also use the Fire Rune from the mages guild, but that's just a poor man's version of Reach. So that leaves ultimates. But that only allows you to stun during your burst combo, which means you forgo a lot of pressure on the enemy by allowing them to move and attack freely for 99% of the time. So you see, there isn't really a good alternative to Reach.

Unless Rune Cage gets a strong secondary (and maybe tertiary) effect like other class stuns (i.e. fear & fossilize) it will remain inferior to Destructive Reach
.

Aedrion · January 2019

To answer the question in the original post: You pretty much can't win. You can beat a bad DK or an average one if you're a great Magsorc. But versus a skilled DK, even if you're really good, it's gg unless you specifically built yourself to counter him before a duel or so. Which leaves you gimped versus other opponents.

To add a contribution to this debate.

What if wings's duration was changed to 6 seconds, the projectile count to 6 but it only reflected projectiles if the DK blocks when the projectile hits?

That would make the skill actually require more than a button press to trololo your way to an EZ victory against Magsorcs, MagNb's, Bowbuilds, etc. A good DK would use wings and then time his blocks to reflect what he wants. A bad DK would fail, mistime it, and still get beaten by a superior opponent.

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

Edziu · January 2019

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

The Uninvited · January 2019

Aedrion wrote: »

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

No, it's not. It's just that sorcerers are underperforming against DK's in BG's or 1v1.

But you know, instead of complaining about 1 skill being OP, why not turn it around and say something like "Frags should be unreflectable!" or "Give us back the old rune cage!". Hell, even make reach unreflectable if that's what you want.

Just, you know, so that both sides are happy.

I run with people that play sorcs and nightblades regularly and I hear their complains about wings.

My response to them is always "You know, you're going to be sorry if they nerf it and we run into a enemy group with sorcs and nightblades afterwards". They always come back with "Oh yeah, forgot that we have DK's in group too"

I get that it's OP in a BG/1v1 scenario with a sorc, but in GvG people are usually happy with DK's being there without even knowing it.

lucky_Sage · January 2019

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

Galarthor · January 2019

Edziu wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

I agree. Shimmering Shields are also completely over performing against projectile based builds and also need to be addressed, as it got even less counterplay than Scales. While similarly OP as the scales of the DK, Shimmering Shields are not as detrimental to the enemy players, as they are "just" absorbing the damage, but not also damaging and stunning the opponent - like scales do. But just to reiterate: Both Scales & Shimmering are in desperate need of adjustment as both are designed under the assumption that fights are mostly fought at range when in reality fights are fought at melee range, and a such they are completely overperforming!

lucky_Sage wrote: »

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

First off, you don't need 100% uptime to be unkillable.
Secondly, you can have 100% uptime.
Thirdly, you generally have to use it only every second or thrid global cooldown.
Fourthly, magSorc sustain is even worse than DK sustain.

Finally, as for your "mages fury, curse, force pulse, atro" is enough arguement: see above. I already explained why it's not. However, here is a short summary:
Fury is only good as an execute, basically deals no damage outside of execute range -> no pressure
Curse is a good skill, but takes 3.5 sec to deliver ~5k damage (=1.4k DPS) -> not enough pressure
Force Pulse is a great skill, allows to put pressure on the DK, unfortunately ZOS is forcing the Destructive Reach skill down our throats due to the lack of reliable & potent stun alteratives, which is reflectable -> no pressure, instead self-maiming
Atro, nice skill, if your opponent is mentally-handicapped and stays in range and line of sight to take a beating. However, damage can be quite easily outhealed and people generally move out of range or line of sight very quickly -> not enough pressure

As you can see, all your suggested solutions are either inadequate or outright infeasible. Most crucial problem is and remains the imposition of Destructive Reach through the lack of an adequate class stun. (See above)

Galarthor · January 2019

I put this one in a different post, as the previous post would become too long:

The Uninvited wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

The Uninvited wrote: »

No, it's not. It's just that sorcerers are underperforming against DK's in BG's or 1v1.

Yes the skill is overperforming against those builds it is intended for - i.e. range projectile-based builds (main mag sorcs & nbs). Ofc it is underperforming against e.g. stamdens, but it was never meant to be used against them.

The Uninvited wrote: »

But you know, instead of complaining about 1 skill being OP, why not turn it around and say something like "Frags should be unreflectable!" or "Give us back the old rune cage!". Hell, even make reach unreflectable if that's what you want.

Well, that's what I have been saying for years now, particaularly when ZOS decided to nerf Rune Cage back into the ground again. I warned them that it would make the skill useless and sorcs would be forced to return to Flame Reach as a spammable and stun, thus making it impossible to fight mDKs - and also really anything that dodges.

Make Rune Cage viable again, by adding a strong secondary effect and make it undodgable again (otherwise stam builds remain unkillable). Then Sorcs can use Rune Cage again and return to Force Pulse, which allows them to put pressure on the DK, and eventually, if they time their attacks right land a CFrag when the DK failed to reapply their wings in time. It becomes a battle of skill again, not one of rock-paper-scissors!

I wouldn't make CFrag unreflectable in it's current state as it is intended as a nuke, b/c with Force Pulse builds being feasible sorcs can put sufficient pressure on the DK and making CFrag unreflectable would just be too much and quite frankly make wings useless against sorcs.

The Uninvited wrote: »

I run with people that play sorcs and nightblades regularly and I hear their complains about wings.

My response to them is always "You know, you're going to be sorry if they nerf it and we run into a enemy group with sorcs and nightblades afterwards". They always come back with "Oh yeah, forgot that we have DK's in group too"

This isn't really a valid arguement. Not wanting to address something that is OP b/c you got somebody in your group using said OP mechanic and you end up profiting from the OP mechanic.

The Uninvited wrote: »

I get that it's OP in a BG/1v1 scenario with a sorc, but in GvG people are usually happy with DK's being there without even knowing it.

Of course it is underperforming against multiple targets. All magicka defensive tools are underperforming against multiple targets, unlike the stamina tools of block and dodge which scale perfectly with multiple targets and allow you to survive even large groups (that's why you see magicka builds dodging or blocking when outnumbered). A notable exception to this rule is Cloak - but that might just be allowed to work well against multiple targets b/c stamina NBs are also using it. For some reason ZOS heavily favors stamina builds in this regard. Which is also evident by the fact that stamina defensive tools such as dodge and block are not affected by lag, but magicka tools are (you can still dodge and block attacks in an laggy environment even after the visual effects have hit you). But this is another issue.

clocksstoppe · January 2019

Lmao remember when you couldn't ever beat a non-braindead sorc because they would be shielded up 100% of the time and just blink away if they figured they are losing? Seems like sorcs are now getting a taste of what it's like to be normal power level.

Galarthor · January 2019

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Lmao remember when you couldn't ever beat a non-braindead sorc because they would be shielded up 100% of the time and just blink away if they figured they are losing? Seems like sorcs are now getting a taste of what it's like to be normal power level.

Lmao remember when the TVs were in black and white?

Lmao remember when DKs were absolute god-mode?
(And pretty much still are against sorcs)

Lmao remember when DKs were perma-rooting and perma-stunning people sucking the fun out of pvp ... oh wait.

Not that what you described was ever really a thing though, b/c you could simply spam your gap closer as the sorc spammed streak and the sorc would drop dead.

TheYKcid · January 2019

One major difference between an unkillable DK standing their ground—and an uncatchable Sorc streaking off into the sunset—is that only one of them can hold an objective. That might be a flag, scroll pedestal, relic, or even a tower that you and your group need to hunker-down in.

You can't just pretend this fundamental asymmetry doesn't exist.

Galarthor · January 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

One major difference between an unkillable DK standing their ground—and an uncatchable Sorc streaking off into the sunset—is that only one of them can hold an objective. That might be a flag, scroll pedestal, relic, or even a tower that you and your group need to hunker-down in.

You can't just pretend this fundamental asymmetry doesn't exist.

Plus, one can be overcome by a single person spamming gap closer, while the other one needs an entire raid group.

lucky_Sage · January 2019

Galarthor wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

I agree. Shimmering Shields are also completely over performing against projectile based builds and also need to be addressed, as it got even less counterplay than Scales. While similarly OP as the scales of the DK, Shimmering Shields are not as detrimental to the enemy players, as they are "just" absorbing the damage, but not also damaging and stunning the opponent - like scales do. But just to reiterate: Both Scales & Shimmering are in desperate need of adjustment as both are designed under the assumption that fights are mostly fought at range when in reality fights are fought at melee range, and a such they are completely overperforming!

lucky_Sage wrote: »

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

First off, you don't need 100% uptime to be unkillable.
Secondly, you can have 100% uptime.
Thirdly, you generally have to use it only every second or thrid global cooldown.
Fourthly, magSorc sustain is even worse than DK sustain.

Finally, as for your "mages fury, curse, force pulse, atro" is enough arguement: see above. I already explained why it's not. However, here is a short summary:
Fury is only good as an execute, basically deals no damage outside of execute range -> no pressure
Curse is a good skill, but takes 3.5 sec to deliver ~5k damage (=1.4k DPS) -> not enough pressure
Force Pulse is a great skill, allows to put pressure on the DK, unfortunately ZOS is forcing the Destructive Reach skill down our throats due to the lack of reliable & potent stun alteratives, which is reflectable -> no pressure, instead self-maiming
Atro, nice skill, if your opponent is mentally-handicapped and stays in range and line of sight to take a beating. However, damage can be quite easily outhealed and people generally move out of range or line of sight very quickly -> not enough pressure

As you can see, all your suggested solutions are either inadequate or outright infeasible. Most crucial problem is and remains the imposition of Destructive Reach through the lack of an adequate class stun. (See above)

Maybe it's a learn to play issue a good sorc can beat a Magdk. But sorc build havnt changed much since frag nerf. 98% of Sorcs play the same cookie cutter builds. The avg sorc is easy to fight because they all play the same. Which part of that is that half of the sorc abilties are reworked like daedric summoning and dark magic. But the best magsorc I ever fought and could never kill him was a 2h magsorc.but your argument on stun you have streak which is a solid strong stun and run cage can still be good against mag build who can dodge.

TheYKcid · January 2019

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

I agree. Shimmering Shields are also completely over performing against projectile based builds and also need to be addressed, as it got even less counterplay than Scales. While similarly OP as the scales of the DK, Shimmering Shields are not as detrimental to the enemy players, as they are "just" absorbing the damage, but not also damaging and stunning the opponent - like scales do. But just to reiterate: Both Scales & Shimmering are in desperate need of adjustment as both are designed under the assumption that fights are mostly fought at range when in reality fights are fought at melee range, and a such they are completely overperforming!

lucky_Sage wrote: »

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

First off, you don't need 100% uptime to be unkillable.
Secondly, you can have 100% uptime.
Thirdly, you generally have to use it only every second or thrid global cooldown.
Fourthly, magSorc sustain is even worse than DK sustain.

Finally, as for your "mages fury, curse, force pulse, atro" is enough arguement: see above. I already explained why it's not. However, here is a short summary:
Fury is only good as an execute, basically deals no damage outside of execute range -> no pressure
Curse is a good skill, but takes 3.5 sec to deliver ~5k damage (=1.4k DPS) -> not enough pressure
Force Pulse is a great skill, allows to put pressure on the DK, unfortunately ZOS is forcing the Destructive Reach skill down our throats due to the lack of reliable & potent stun alteratives, which is reflectable -> no pressure, instead self-maiming
Atro, nice skill, if your opponent is mentally-handicapped and stays in range and line of sight to take a beating. However, damage can be quite easily outhealed and people generally move out of range or line of sight very quickly -> not enough pressure

As you can see, all your suggested solutions are either inadequate or outright infeasible. Most crucial problem is and remains the imposition of Destructive Reach through the lack of an adequate class stun. (See above)

Maybe it's a learn to play issue a good sorc can beat a Magdk. But sorc build havnt changed much since frag nerf. 98% of Sorcs play the same cookie cutter builds. The avg sorc is easy to fight because they all play the same. Which part of that is that half of the sorc abilties are reworked like daedric summoning and dark magic. But the best magsorc I ever fought and could never kill him was a 2h magsorc.but your argument on stun you have streak which is a solid strong stun and run cage can still be good against mag build who can dodge.

Then why does Legend, the premier duelling guild on PCNA, expressly ban wings in a DK vs. ranged matchup?

Either they all bad "cookie cutter" players,

or you're just a bad DK who lost to an incredibly gimped Sorc running a utility Forward Momentum build.

I have a pretty good idea which.

Savos_Saren · January 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

I agree. Shimmering Shields are also completely over performing against projectile based builds and also need to be addressed, as it got even less counterplay than Scales. While similarly OP as the scales of the DK, Shimmering Shields are not as detrimental to the enemy players, as they are "just" absorbing the damage, but not also damaging and stunning the opponent - like scales do. But just to reiterate: Both Scales & Shimmering are in desperate need of adjustment as both are designed under the assumption that fights are mostly fought at range when in reality fights are fought at melee range, and a such they are completely overperforming!

lucky_Sage wrote: »

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

First off, you don't need 100% uptime to be unkillable.
Secondly, you can have 100% uptime.
Thirdly, you generally have to use it only every second or thrid global cooldown.
Fourthly, magSorc sustain is even worse than DK sustain.

Finally, as for your "mages fury, curse, force pulse, atro" is enough arguement: see above. I already explained why it's not. However, here is a short summary:
Fury is only good as an execute, basically deals no damage outside of execute range -> no pressure
Curse is a good skill, but takes 3.5 sec to deliver ~5k damage (=1.4k DPS) -> not enough pressure
Force Pulse is a great skill, allows to put pressure on the DK, unfortunately ZOS is forcing the Destructive Reach skill down our throats due to the lack of reliable & potent stun alteratives, which is reflectable -> no pressure, instead self-maiming
Atro, nice skill, if your opponent is mentally-handicapped and stays in range and line of sight to take a beating. However, damage can be quite easily outhealed and people generally move out of range or line of sight very quickly -> not enough pressure

As you can see, all your suggested solutions are either inadequate or outright infeasible. Most crucial problem is and remains the imposition of Destructive Reach through the lack of an adequate class stun. (See above)

Maybe it's a learn to play issue a good sorc can beat a Magdk. But sorc build havnt changed much since frag nerf. 98% of Sorcs play the same cookie cutter builds. The avg sorc is easy to fight because they all play the same. Which part of that is that half of the sorc abilties are reworked like daedric summoning and dark magic. But the best magsorc I ever fought and could never kill him was a 2h magsorc.but your argument on stun you have streak which is a solid strong stun and run cage can still be good against mag build who can dodge.

Then why does Legend, the premier duelling guild on PCNA, expressly ban wings in a DK vs. ranged matchup?

Either they all bad "cookie cutter" players,

or you're just a bad DK who lost to an incredibly gimped Sorc running a utility Forward Momentum build.

I have a pretty good idea which.

Why do people always go to duels when talking about skills? AvA has nothing to do with 1v1. AvA isn't like old kung-fu movies where one person fights you at a time, either.

It seems to always boil down to "Well, I can't single target ranged pewpew you on my setup..." and it comes from either the shield-stacking class (shields which absorb incoming damage from multiple targets) or the cloaking class which can disappear in the blink of an eye.

NyassaV · January 2019

Streak Away

TheYKcid · January 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

I agree. Shimmering Shields are also completely over performing against projectile based builds and also need to be addressed, as it got even less counterplay than Scales. While similarly OP as the scales of the DK, Shimmering Shields are not as detrimental to the enemy players, as they are "just" absorbing the damage, but not also damaging and stunning the opponent - like scales do. But just to reiterate: Both Scales & Shimmering are in desperate need of adjustment as both are designed under the assumption that fights are mostly fought at range when in reality fights are fought at melee range, and a such they are completely overperforming!

lucky_Sage wrote: »

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

First off, you don't need 100% uptime to be unkillable.
Secondly, you can have 100% uptime.
Thirdly, you generally have to use it only every second or thrid global cooldown.
Fourthly, magSorc sustain is even worse than DK sustain.

Finally, as for your "mages fury, curse, force pulse, atro" is enough arguement: see above. I already explained why it's not. However, here is a short summary:
Fury is only good as an execute, basically deals no damage outside of execute range -> no pressure
Curse is a good skill, but takes 3.5 sec to deliver ~5k damage (=1.4k DPS) -> not enough pressure
Force Pulse is a great skill, allows to put pressure on the DK, unfortunately ZOS is forcing the Destructive Reach skill down our throats due to the lack of reliable & potent stun alteratives, which is reflectable -> no pressure, instead self-maiming
Atro, nice skill, if your opponent is mentally-handicapped and stays in range and line of sight to take a beating. However, damage can be quite easily outhealed and people generally move out of range or line of sight very quickly -> not enough pressure

As you can see, all your suggested solutions are either inadequate or outright infeasible. Most crucial problem is and remains the imposition of Destructive Reach through the lack of an adequate class stun. (See above)

Maybe it's a learn to play issue a good sorc can beat a Magdk. But sorc build havnt changed much since frag nerf. 98% of Sorcs play the same cookie cutter builds. The avg sorc is easy to fight because they all play the same. Which part of that is that half of the sorc abilties are reworked like daedric summoning and dark magic. But the best magsorc I ever fought and could never kill him was a 2h magsorc.but your argument on stun you have streak which is a solid strong stun and run cage can still be good against mag build who can dodge.

Then why does Legend, the premier duelling guild on PCNA, expressly ban wings in a DK vs. ranged matchup?

Either they all bad "cookie cutter" players,

or you're just a bad DK who lost to an incredibly gimped Sorc running a utility Forward Momentum build.

I have a pretty good idea which.

Why do people always go to duels when talking about skills? AvA has nothing to do with 1v1. AvA isn't like old kung-fu movies where one person fights you at a time, either.

It seems to always boil down to "Well, I can't single target ranged pewpew you on my setup..." and it comes from either the shield-stacking class (shields which absorb incoming damage from multiple targets) or the cloaking class which can disappear in the blink of an eye.

No one's exclusively talking about duels. The poster I addressed explicitly brought-up their anecdotal 1v1 experience as substantiation for their argument. Thus I responded in kind, within the same context.

I have directly called for buffs to wings in outnumbered scenarios.

Murador178 · January 2019

Aedrion wrote: »

To answer the question in the original post: You pretty much can't win. You can beat a bad DK or an average one if you're a great Magsorc. But versus a skilled DK, even if you're really good, it's gg unless you specifically built yourself to counter him before a duel or so. Which leaves you gimped versus other opponents.

To add a contribution to this debate.

What if wings's duration was changed to 6 seconds, the projectile count to 6 but it only reflected projectiles if the DK blocks when the projectile hits?

That would make the skill actually require more than a button press to trololo your way to an EZ victory against Magsorcs, MagNb's, Bowbuilds, etc. A good DK would use wings and then time his blocks to reflect what he wants. A bad DK would fail, mistime it, and still get beaten by a superior opponent.

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

Thats not correct. A 1v1 mSorc vs mDk is almost always tie if both classes know what they do.

bardx86 · January 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

Streak Away

would be nice if it didn't cost a whole bar of magicka to do so.

bardx86 · January 2019

Murador178 wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

To answer the question in the original post: You pretty much can't win. You can beat a bad DK or an average one if you're a great Magsorc. But versus a skilled DK, even if you're really good, it's gg unless you specifically built yourself to counter him before a duel or so. Which leaves you gimped versus other opponents.

To add a contribution to this debate.

What if wings's duration was changed to 6 seconds, the projectile count to 6 but it only reflected projectiles if the DK blocks when the projectile hits?

That would make the skill actually require more than a button press to trololo your way to an EZ victory against Magsorcs, MagNb's, Bowbuilds, etc. A good DK would use wings and then time his blocks to reflect what he wants. A bad DK would fail, mistime it, and still get beaten by a superior opponent.

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

Thats not correct. A 1v1 mSorc vs mDk is almost always tie if both classes know what they do.

Thats a very broad statement. If said DK is wearing sloads,caldrins,skoria the sorc isn't going to even tie unless he just leaves.

ccmedaddy · January 2019

bardx86 wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

To answer the question in the original post: You pretty much can't win. You can beat a bad DK or an average one if you're a great Magsorc. But versus a skilled DK, even if you're really good, it's gg unless you specifically built yourself to counter him before a duel or so. Which leaves you gimped versus other opponents.

To add a contribution to this debate.

What if wings's duration was changed to 6 seconds, the projectile count to 6 but it only reflected projectiles if the DK blocks when the projectile hits?

That would make the skill actually require more than a button press to trololo your way to an EZ victory against Magsorcs, MagNb's, Bowbuilds, etc. A good DK would use wings and then time his blocks to reflect what he wants. A bad DK would fail, mistime it, and still get beaten by a superior opponent.

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

Thats not correct. A 1v1 mSorc vs mDk is almost always tie if both classes know what they do.

Thats a very broad statement. If said DK is wearing sloads,caldrins,skoria the sorc isn't going to even tie unless he just leaves.

I mean.... the sorc can have 4 pets out and camp mines all day and there's literally nothing a magDK can do about that so I'm not sure what your point is.

DRTE · January 2019

Y'all leave my wings alone. Flap flap has been one of my favorite skills since beta and it's had its nurfs.
Ones hating on wings just lucky we can't reflect comets anymore and that time we could reflect force shock and morphs. It's DK's defensive skill to deal with you god damn bowtards and frag spammers it's not OP or broken its to counter silly plays.
I get smacked down by a lot of players who can counter wings see them about to drop and boom they CC me and go on the offensive. Problem is you have play with smarts against every class thats a fact.
NB goes invisible i use a detect pot, Warden heals hard and hits hard so i CC and stay behind them if i can(Same goes for DK) , Sorc streak can be very deadly if used right strong CC so i need my wings to stop that incoming frag after a stun.
those are just a few examples of things i have to do to deal with everyone else's classes, So come on guys get off the nurf bandwagon this game will never be 100% balanced you can't do it unless you limit everyones abilitys to all the same and everyones gear to all the same and who the hell wants that.

Aedaryl · January 2019

Wings are clearly overperforming in 1v1 situations VS magsorc (and magblade).

The problem come both from the skill and from the sorc bad toolkit (if not on a pet build).

On a class that rely on a 3s minimum time to set up a burst, the dk can just use wings around the curse explosion or when the frag have it's new "OMG I'M HERE REFLECT ME" animation and so totaly counter the sorc burst.

The way to kill a flappy magdk is with pressure, and non pet sorc is the worst class ever to put pressure. Most build use reach, wich is countered by wings and even with force pulse, the main sorc pressure over time, aka light attacks, is hardcountered.

If you add the magdk pressure and it's ability to have it's heal when attacking + the sorc passivity when shield stacking it's ez for a magdk to go full damage on the sorc, ingoring his burst and take some flappy break when the sorc use 2 or 3s to shieldstack.

4 projectile reflected is too powerfull in 1v1, but it's kinda meh in 1vX.

On the other hand a magsorc hwo use harness magicka can literally spam it and totaly face tank the DK. But it's not a sorc skill, just the same old overpowered manaback when using harness.

ToRelax · January 2019

DRTE wrote: »

Y'all leave my wings alone. Flap flap has been one of my favorite skills since beta and it's had its nurfs.
Ones hating on wings just lucky we can't reflect comets anymore and that time we could reflect force shock and morphs. It's DK's defensive skill to deal with you god damn bowtards and frag spammers it's not OP or broken its to counter silly plays.
I get smacked down by a lot of players who can counter wings see them about to drop and boom they CC me and go on the offensive. Problem is you have play with smarts against every class thats a fact.
NB goes invisible i use a detect pot, Warden heals hard and hits hard so i CC and stay behind them if i can(Same goes for DK) , Sorc streak can be very deadly if used right strong CC so i need my wings to stop that incoming frag after a stun.
those are just a few examples of things i have to do to deal with everyone else's classes, So come on guys get off the nurf bandwagon this game will never be 100% balanced you can't do it unless you limit everyones abilitys to all the same and everyones gear to all the same and who the hell wants that.

It's not difficult to keep up wings 1v1 on a mag DK, and unless they are rather squishy and somehow manage to run out of stamina, there's usually not much I can do about it then with my own build, regardless of skill level. It's like fighting a mag Sorc with BoL in 1.6. You could just keep it up and there would be no danger of dieing.
Now there are better ways to balance a skill than stacking costs, especially since wings has already been made somewhat underwhelming against multiple attackers. But it isn't something that you can play around with on just any build, you have to make sacrifices for it that you probably wouldn't make otherwise.
The main reason mag sorc vs mag dk ends in a stalemate usually outside of pet builds or other cheesy dueling setups is scales on one side and harness on the other. Both defensive skills that are exceptionally powerful against a certain type of build in a 1v1 that don't scale well with number of attackers.

Edziu · January 2019

bardx86 wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

To answer the question in the original post: You pretty much can't win. You can beat a bad DK or an average one if you're a great Magsorc. But versus a skilled DK, even if you're really good, it's gg unless you specifically built yourself to counter him before a duel or so. Which leaves you gimped versus other opponents.

To add a contribution to this debate.

What if wings's duration was changed to 6 seconds, the projectile count to 6 but it only reflected projectiles if the DK blocks when the projectile hits?

That would make the skill actually require more than a button press to trololo your way to an EZ victory against Magsorcs, MagNb's, Bowbuilds, etc. A good DK would use wings and then time his blocks to reflect what he wants. A bad DK would fail, mistime it, and still get beaten by a superior opponent.

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

Thats not correct. A 1v1 mSorc vs mDk is almost always tie if both classes know what they do.

Thats a very broad statement. If said DK is wearing sloads,caldrins,skoria the sorc isn't going to even tie unless he just leaves.

you know sloads, calurion(I think you was mean this) and skoria are jsut sets avaible for everyone?

most dk at all will run just skoria as set from these you mentioned, most dk will use sustain sets than these because mag dk have the hardest with sustain from other classes

I can add here cloak is just op and need nerf because stamblade with master axes, sload/viper/any other proc dmg set is running and stacking tons of dots then hiding and I cant heal through this while he is sitting safe in cloak and waiting for me to get out of resources for just healing out this hell

Aedaryl · January 2019

Edziu wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

To answer the question in the original post: You pretty much can't win. You can beat a bad DK or an average one if you're a great Magsorc. But versus a skilled DK, even if you're really good, it's gg unless you specifically built yourself to counter him before a duel or so. Which leaves you gimped versus other opponents.

To add a contribution to this debate.

What if wings's duration was changed to 6 seconds, the projectile count to 6 but it only reflected projectiles if the DK blocks when the projectile hits?

That would make the skill actually require more than a button press to trololo your way to an EZ victory against Magsorcs, MagNb's, Bowbuilds, etc. A good DK would use wings and then time his blocks to reflect what he wants. A bad DK would fail, mistime it, and still get beaten by a superior opponent.

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

Thats not correct. A 1v1 mSorc vs mDk is almost always tie if both classes know what they do.

Thats a very broad statement. If said DK is wearing sloads,caldrins,skoria the sorc isn't going to even tie unless he just leaves.

you know sloads, calurion(I think you was mean this) and skoria are jsut sets avaible for everyone?

most dk at all will run just skoria as set from these you mentioned, most dk will use sustain sets than these because mag dk have the hardest with sustain from other classes

I can add here cloak is just op and need nerf because stamblade with master axes, sload/viper/any other proc dmg set is running and stacking tons of dots then hiding and I cant heal through this while he is sitting safe in cloak and waiting for me to get out of resources for just healing out this hell

False.

Magicka sorc have the hardest sustain, not magicka DK. Just look how much regen/cost reduction meta build run with. You will find sorc investing into more regen than the magdk, even if the sorc have harness magicka (most broken sustain tool) + dark conversion, all dedicated to sustain.

When you need more regen + 2 sustain skill when other can do fine with less regen and 0 to 1 sustain skill, you can affirm the class is the hardest to sustain.

Ragnaroek93 · January 2019

Murador178 wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

To answer the question in the original post: You pretty much can't win. You can beat a bad DK or an average one if you're a great Magsorc. But versus a skilled DK, even if you're really good, it's gg unless you specifically built yourself to counter him before a duel or so. Which leaves you gimped versus other opponents.

To add a contribution to this debate.

What if wings's duration was changed to 6 seconds, the projectile count to 6 but it only reflected projectiles if the DK blocks when the projectile hits?

That would make the skill actually require more than a button press to trololo your way to an EZ victory against Magsorcs, MagNb's, Bowbuilds, etc. A good DK would use wings and then time his blocks to reflect what he wants. A bad DK would fail, mistime it, and still get beaten by a superior opponent.

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

Thats not correct. A 1v1 mSorc vs mDk is almost always tie if both classes know what they do.

To be fair, basically the "worst" thing which can happen to a sorc in a 1v1 is playing a tie these days. Literally every class has bad matchups in which it's hard to do well against - on sorc a "bad match up" means not being able to kill your opponent while other classes often just die (and even about that you can argue, I think a sorc with Necrorend can take down almost everything in the game while still doing fine in open world).

Fighting Dks is a tough match up for sorcs, so what? Fighting against a magsorc is a tough match up for every squishy build, just accept that you can't do well against everything and be happy that shields don't have legit counters instead (legit counter = something that isn't 100% useless against every other class). Stop trying to get every defense mechanic from other classes nerfed just because you can't roflstomp them. I can guarantee you that the magdk will struggle to get through your shields as well.

ZarkingFrued · January 2019

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As a Magicka Sorc, how do I counter the 100% uptime DK's have with reflect scales in PvP? Everything I cast just comes back to me, and then they talons and whip me to death in close combat. I don't feel like this is very balanced.

100% uptime? WHAT?! Lmao, short duration as well as unsustainable cost. Maybe make a Balanced build. My magsorc has no problems with wings. Haunting curse, Force pulse, wrath, meteor, and time in Crystal's and stuns for when wings drop. Nothing to see here.

ZarkingFrued · January 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

Look at it from the other side. Reflective Scales is an expensive (for what it offers, especially compared to Warden's Crystallized Shield) ability that grants immunity from up to 4 projectiles by reflecting them back at the attacker, while also removing snares and granting two seconds of immunity to snares. Sure, when I describe it like that, sounds strong.

But factor in that's a flat 4 projectiles, meaning it doesn't care how many players you're fighting against, meaning it can practically drop the moment you cast it when fighting against 2 or more ranged players. It's either the best thing in the world when fighting one-on-one with a ranged player, or when fighting some melee guys and a ranged guy decides to jump into the fight, or it is utterly useless and a waste of like 3400 magicka (base cost of the Reflective Plate morph, since nobody uses the other morph, with no cost reduction) when fighting 2 or more ranged players.

The snare removal is nice to have as a magicka class, and I do think other classes need avenues of snare removal, but the snare immunity is inconsequential at 2 seconds. Forward Momentum in its current state is a bit hard to justify maintaining at 4 seconds, nobody maintains Reflective Scales' 2 seconds worth of snare immunity, it's pointless to when considering the magicka cost.

It also has many counters, it doesn't protect against set procs, and some projectiles outright ignore it, namely Warden's bird. It also has an annoying bug where it will occasionally let a projectile through, even though it hasn't reflected a single projectile. So it isn't a hard counter to all projectiles, either.

It sucks to fight against, I get it, but it is such a binary skill, where it is either amazing or utterly useless, so nothing can be done to it or else it will be ruined. I'll be fine with reducing the cap, if the cap is made per-player, to help fighting outnumbered with multiple ranged players. 3 projectiles per-person would be fine, maybe 2, but in its current state, it shouldn't be touched.

To compare it to Warden's Crystallized Shield, which, in my opinion, is the most direct comparison to Reflective Scales (minus the reflect), Warden's Crystallized Shield costs about 3200 magicka, absorbs an amount of damage from up to 3 projectiles (so it protects against less than Reflective Scales), but it restores about 600 magicka for each projectile absorbed (restoring 1800 in total, bringing the effective cost down to 1400 since it will restore 56% of the cost when the cap is fully expended), and grants Major Heroism for 6 seconds, hugely increasing your ultimate generation. Protects from a bit less damage, but is effectively under half the cost, and grants ultimate generation for 6 seconds. Which would you want?

I'll take shimmering shield all day every class please

ZarkingFrued · January 2019

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Again? DK wings have been nerfed to hell and back! Back in the day, it used to reflect ALL projectiles and was not limited to 4. This was including skills like Force Pulse and even their own skills like chains.

Now that was OP indeed! Nowadays, it's fine. L2P.

If it's any consolation to you, I would say not to nerf DK but to buff Sorc. They could use a bit more power since the recent nerfs.

Reflective projectiles (reflective scales) is a broken mechanic, spammable combat invisibility (cloak) is a broken mechanic. You cannot balance broken mechanics, you need to remove them.

I'd trade both off of my builds for the removal of snipe from the game