Magicka Sorc vs DK Reflective Scales

ToRelax

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

To answer the question in the original post: You pretty much can't win. You can beat a bad DK or an average one if you're a great Magsorc. But versus a skilled DK, even if you're really good, it's gg unless you specifically built yourself to counter him before a duel or so. Which leaves you gimped versus other opponents.

To add a contribution to this debate.

What if wings's duration was changed to 6 seconds, the projectile count to 6 but it only reflected projectiles if the DK blocks when the projectile hits?

That would make the skill actually require more than a button press to trololo your way to an EZ victory against Magsorcs, MagNb's, Bowbuilds, etc. A good DK would use wings and then time his blocks to reflect what he wants. A bad DK would fail, mistime it, and still get beaten by a superior opponent.

Finally, wings is overperforming, that is a fact. Proven by the fact that people need to change their entire builds and playstyles just to have even a chance of beating it. They need to slot special skills just to fight it, which leaves them less effective in all other scenario's. That's a hallmark of a skill that is too strong.

Thats not correct. A 1v1 mSorc vs mDk is almost always tie if both classes know what they do.

To be fair, basically the "worst" thing which can happen to a sorc in a 1v1 is playing a tie these days. Literally every class has bad matchups in which it's hard to do well against - on sorc a "bad match up" means not being able to kill your opponent while other classes often just die (and even about that you can argue, I think a sorc with Necrorend can take down almost everything in the game while still doing fine in open world).

Fighting Dks is a tough match up for sorcs, so what? Fighting against a magsorc is a tough match up for every squishy build, just accept that you can't do well against everything and be happy that shields don't have legit counters instead (legit counter = something that isn't 100% useless against every other class). Stop trying to get every defense mechanic from other classes nerfed just because you can't roflstomp them. I can guarantee you that the magdk will struggle to get through your shields as well.

Excluding oblivion damage and dueling builds, stam NBs and especially stam Templars cut through shields very easily. These fights can go either way (though stamplars will have the advantage against most non pet sorc builds), but they'll rarely end in a tie.

KhajiitFelix

So you are saying that every class except sorc and templar is op?

Urvoth

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

lucky_Sage

TheYKcid wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

I agree. Shimmering Shields are also completely over performing against projectile based builds and also need to be addressed, as it got even less counterplay than Scales. While similarly OP as the scales of the DK, Shimmering Shields are not as detrimental to the enemy players, as they are "just" absorbing the damage, but not also damaging and stunning the opponent - like scales do. But just to reiterate: Both Scales & Shimmering are in desperate need of adjustment as both are designed under the assumption that fights are mostly fought at range when in reality fights are fought at melee range, and a such they are completely overperforming!

lucky_Sage wrote: »

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

First off, you don't need 100% uptime to be unkillable.
Secondly, you can have 100% uptime.
Thirdly, you generally have to use it only every second or thrid global cooldown.
Fourthly, magSorc sustain is even worse than DK sustain.

Finally, as for your "mages fury, curse, force pulse, atro" is enough arguement: see above. I already explained why it's not. However, here is a short summary:
Fury is only good as an execute, basically deals no damage outside of execute range -> no pressure
Curse is a good skill, but takes 3.5 sec to deliver ~5k damage (=1.4k DPS) -> not enough pressure
Force Pulse is a great skill, allows to put pressure on the DK, unfortunately ZOS is forcing the Destructive Reach skill down our throats due to the lack of reliable & potent stun alteratives, which is reflectable -> no pressure, instead self-maiming
Atro, nice skill, if your opponent is mentally-handicapped and stays in range and line of sight to take a beating. However, damage can be quite easily outhealed and people generally move out of range or line of sight very quickly -> not enough pressure

As you can see, all your suggested solutions are either inadequate or outright infeasible. Most crucial problem is and remains the imposition of Destructive Reach through the lack of an adequate class stun. (See above)

Maybe it's a learn to play issue a good sorc can beat a Magdk. But sorc build havnt changed much since frag nerf. 98% of Sorcs play the same cookie cutter builds. The avg sorc is easy to fight because they all play the same. Which part of that is that half of the sorc abilties are reworked like daedric summoning and dark magic. But the best magsorc I ever fought and could never kill him was a 2h magsorc.but your argument on stun you have streak which is a solid strong stun and run cage can still be good against mag build who can dodge.

Then why does Legend, the premier duelling guild on PCNA, expressly ban wings in a DK vs. ranged matchup?

Either they all bad "cookie cutter" players,

or you're just a bad DK who lost to an incredibly gimped Sorc running a utility Forward Momentum build.

I have a pretty good idea which.

This game is and should not be balanced around dueling and it is banned because for some reason people think it's fun the cut the unique ability from classes that they learned from zos every class has abilities than can't be reflected. I don't lose to many sorcs they are predictable.

Galarthor

Savos_Saren wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And that admission alone is reason enough, why there should not be a skill that indiscriminantly cancels out or suprresses ranged projectiles. You are getting a additional protection in the form of scales which assumes that you will spent a lot of time at range when fighting ranged builds - but this is simply not true. That's why this skill (and shimmering shields for that matter) is so overperforming.

so to this what about warden shield?
maybe it have no reflect but this absorb every projectile while giving back resource and ulti to this warden for every projectile absorbed and here is no expections for beams etc unreflectable etc, it is just projectile now which is fully absorbed

(if someone has significant changed with this skill dont flame me, wasnt looking at it in last days but just saying how atleast it worked last time when I saw this)

I agree. Shimmering Shields are also completely over performing against projectile based builds and also need to be addressed, as it got even less counterplay than Scales. While similarly OP as the scales of the DK, Shimmering Shields are not as detrimental to the enemy players, as they are "just" absorbing the damage, but not also damaging and stunning the opponent - like scales do. But just to reiterate: Both Scales & Shimmering are in desperate need of adjustment as both are designed under the assumption that fights are mostly fought at range when in reality fights are fought at melee range, and a such they are completely overperforming!

lucky_Sage wrote: »

If a dk has 100% uptime on wings they aren't going to be able to kill you. You have mages wrath, curse, force pulse, atro ult if you stay by it it does alot of pressure if they move out they can hit you. Then pets.
Dk sustain isn't good enough to have 100% uptime on wings if it wants kill potential.
I main a dk but I've played every mag class in the game wings is only strong in 1v1 it's is sub par. Unless your 3 bowtards and the dk doesn't have to attack to kill you

First off, you don't need 100% uptime to be unkillable.
Secondly, you can have 100% uptime.
Thirdly, you generally have to use it only every second or thrid global cooldown.
Fourthly, magSorc sustain is even worse than DK sustain.

Finally, as for your "mages fury, curse, force pulse, atro" is enough arguement: see above. I already explained why it's not. However, here is a short summary:
Fury is only good as an execute, basically deals no damage outside of execute range -> no pressure
Curse is a good skill, but takes 3.5 sec to deliver ~5k damage (=1.4k DPS) -> not enough pressure
Force Pulse is a great skill, allows to put pressure on the DK, unfortunately ZOS is forcing the Destructive Reach skill down our throats due to the lack of reliable & potent stun alteratives, which is reflectable -> no pressure, instead self-maiming
Atro, nice skill, if your opponent is mentally-handicapped and stays in range and line of sight to take a beating. However, damage can be quite easily outhealed and people generally move out of range or line of sight very quickly -> not enough pressure

As you can see, all your suggested solutions are either inadequate or outright infeasible. Most crucial problem is and remains the imposition of Destructive Reach through the lack of an adequate class stun. (See above)

Maybe it's a learn to play issue a good sorc can beat a Magdk. But sorc build havnt changed much since frag nerf. 98% of Sorcs play the same cookie cutter builds. The avg sorc is easy to fight because they all play the same. Which part of that is that half of the sorc abilties are reworked like daedric summoning and dark magic. But the best magsorc I ever fought and could never kill him was a 2h magsorc.but your argument on stun you have streak which is a solid strong stun and run cage can still be good against mag build who can dodge.

Then why does Legend, the premier duelling guild on PCNA, expressly ban wings in a DK vs. ranged matchup?

Either they all bad "cookie cutter" players,

or you're just a bad DK who lost to an incredibly gimped Sorc running a utility Forward Momentum build.

I have a pretty good idea which.

Why do people always go to duels when talking about skills? AvA has nothing to do with 1v1. AvA isn't like old kung-fu movies where one person fights you at a time, either.

It seems to always boil down to "Well, I can't single target ranged pewpew you on my setup..." and it comes from either the shield-stacking class (shields which absorb incoming damage from multiple targets) or the cloaking class which can disappear in the blink of an eye.

Gee, I don't know. Maybe b/c the Topic is "Magicka Sorc vs DK Reflective Scales Bookmark". Or maybe b/c a 1v20 isn't really suitable to ascertain how well class A does against class B.

You complain about wings not being strong in AvA and implicitly in 1vX. I will let you in on a little secret: Shields are even worse in these scenarios. A 10k to 12k Shields is not going to survive 4 hits. And neither is it dealing any damage to the enemy or making the sorc immune to snares.

And just to reiterate: I think this problem should be solved on the side of sorcs and magblades, by giving them damage skills that can bypass the wings to put pressure on the DK. Nerfing wings directly doesn't really make sense. If anything I'd give wings some defense against stamina melee builds as well.

The purpose of wings should be that the DK does not get burst down from range before he can react / reach the target. This is achieved by either (1) preventing the burst spikes or (2) having wings only reflect abilities shot from a certain range (i.e. 15m to 20m).

The solution can even be rather simple, e.g.: make Rune Cage viable again. Then sorcs get a non-reflectable spammable in the form of Force Pulse and can put pressure on the DK, but the CFrags are still reflectable so the DK won't get burst down as long as he pays attention.

A similar solution can be found fo magblades.

-> Wings remain unchanged
-> Sorcs and magBlades can fight DKs on equal footing
-> Who wins and who loses does no longer depend on which class you play.

Galarthor

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

Obviously you are the one with the l2p issues.

Breaking Scales with only light attacks requires 4 global cooldowns. That's 4 global cooldowns during which you are essentially doing nothing to the DK, you are not putting any pressure on the DK whatsoever since you are dealing a grand total of 0 damage. At the same time the DK is hitting you with 4 light attacks and 4 abilities. And only after the DK has been punching in your face for 4 global cooldowns you can even consider to attack him on the 5th GCD. But the DK can easily reapply his wings and the whole thing repeats itself. And it get's even better, those 4 light attacks the sorc was spamming are all refelctable and hit the sorc aswell.

So in essence: So in essence over an interval of 4 GCD the DK dealt damage equivalent to 8 Light attacks and 4 abilities to the sorc. Meanwhile the sorc dealt 0 damage to the DK. Well the Sorc could use Curse which takes 3.5 to proc so the Sorc dealt 0 light attacks and 1 ability worth of damage to the DK.

I don't know about you, but I got the strange feeling that: 8L +4A =/= 0L +1A

But I can see why DKs find the status quo so appealing and don't want it to change.
But you keep on running around in the forums telling others that THEY got l2p issues ...

ak_pvp

TheYKcid wrote: »

One major difference between an unkillable DK standing their ground—and an uncatchable Sorc streaking off into the sunset—is that only one of them can hold an objective. That might be a flag, scroll pedestal, relic, or even a tower that you and your group need to hunker-down in.

You can't just pretend this fundamental asymmetry doesn't exist.

And only one of them has a chance at escaping the oncoming onslaught if in a bad situation.

Galarthor

ak_pvp wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

One major difference between an unkillable DK standing their ground—and an uncatchable Sorc streaking off into the sunset—is that only one of them can hold an objective. That might be a flag, scroll pedestal, relic, or even a tower that you and your group need to hunker-down in.

You can't just pretend this fundamental asymmetry doesn't exist.

And only one of them has a chance at escaping the oncoming onslaught if in a bad situation.

Yes, the DK. B/c people will eventually give up trying to kill him. Meanwhile the sorc streaked 4 times, is out of magicka, and got killed by a guy spamming gap closers.

ToRelax

Galarthor wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

Obviously you are the one with the l2p issues.

Breaking Scales with only light attacks requires 4 global cooldowns. That's 4 global cooldowns during which you are essentially doing nothing to the DK, you are not putting any pressure on the DK whatsoever since you are dealing a grand total of 0 damage. At the same time the DK is hitting you with 4 light attacks and 4 abilities. And only after the DK has been punching in your face for 4 global cooldowns you can even consider to attack him on the 5th GCD. But the DK can easily reapply his wings and the whole thing repeats itself. And it get's even better, those 4 light attacks the sorc was spamming are all refelctable and hit the sorc aswell.

So in essence: So in essence over an interval of 4 GCD the DK dealt damage equivalent to 8 Light attacks and 4 abilities to the sorc. Meanwhile the sorc dealt 0 damage to the DK. Well the Sorc could use Curse which takes 3.5 to proc so the Sorc dealt 0 light attacks and 1 ability worth of damage to the DK.

I don't know about you, but I got the strange feeling that: 8L +4A =/= 0L +1A

But I can see why DKs find the status quo so appealing and don't want it to change.
But you keep on running around in the forums telling others that THEY got l2p issues ...

It's not quite that extreme, the Sorc should use Curse at least once in this time frame and the DK can cast only three other skills between Scales when keeping them up the entire time.

Priyasekarssk

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As a Magicka Sorc, how do I counter the 100% uptime DK's have with reflect scales in PvP? Everything I cast just comes back to me, and then they talons and whip me to death in close combat. I don't feel like this is very balanced.

Dont play Magic sorc. There is no way to counter DK with sorc. Only spam force pulse which not even move an inch in health bar.
For all noobs who tell who can do, just come with their Mage sorc to me. I will win in all 100 1v1 fights and T bag them everytime. Reason is there is so many streamers with DK ein EP. So , it wont be nerfed and never. No streamers or racists in AD . So magic sorc will be always nerfed. Light armor and shields will be nerfed .
Heavy armor and tanks will be never nerfed.
There is no competive PVP player in ESO. Many competitive players like kodi , sypher left the game. Now we have only noobs and pathetic cry babies . When they go to other games they will get wrecked in 2 seconds. WHat they will do ?
Make DK so much OP and unkillable skills. Make heavy armor super strong and nerf shields.

ak_pvp

Galarthor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

One major difference between an unkillable DK standing their ground—and an uncatchable Sorc streaking off into the sunset—is that only one of them can hold an objective. That might be a flag, scroll pedestal, relic, or even a tower that you and your group need to hunker-down in.

You can't just pretend this fundamental asymmetry doesn't exist.

And only one of them has a chance at escaping the oncoming onslaught if in a bad situation.

Yes, the DK. B/c people will eventually give up trying to kill him. Meanwhile the sorc streaked 4 times, is out of magicka, and got killed by a guy spamming gap closers.

If you can't kill a DK with 2+ people you are literally trash players. Like even 2 magblades/sorcs can slap down wings in a second, 2x projectile+LA so much faster than a DK can up it. A DK has 0 chance to escape, and tanking is *** RIP outside of dealing with potatoes. Every stam build has the advantage of bleeds and can completely ignore wings.

Galarthor

ToRelax wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

Obviously you are the one with the l2p issues.

Breaking Scales with only light attacks requires 4 global cooldowns. That's 4 global cooldowns during which you are essentially doing nothing to the DK, you are not putting any pressure on the DK whatsoever since you are dealing a grand total of 0 damage. At the same time the DK is hitting you with 4 light attacks and 4 abilities. And only after the DK has been punching in your face for 4 global cooldowns you can even consider to attack him on the 5th GCD. But the DK can easily reapply his wings and the whole thing repeats itself. And it get's even better, those 4 light attacks the sorc was spamming are all refelctable and hit the sorc aswell.

So in essence: So in essence over an interval of 4 GCD the DK dealt damage equivalent to 8 Light attacks and 4 abilities to the sorc. Meanwhile the sorc dealt 0 damage to the DK. Well the Sorc could use Curse which takes 3.5 to proc so the Sorc dealt 0 light attacks and 1 ability worth of damage to the DK.

I don't know about you, but I got the strange feeling that: 8L +4A =/= 0L +1A

But I can see why DKs find the status quo so appealing and don't want it to change.
But you keep on running around in the forums telling others that THEY got l2p issues ...

It's not quite that extreme, the Sorc should use Curse at least once in this time frame and the DK can cast only three other skills between Scales when keeping them up the entire time.

Actually it is.
You got 4 global cooldowns you can do anything you want as a DK and only on your 5th you will have to consider to reapply shields. B/c after you applied your wings it takes 4 global cooldowns for the sorc to take down your wing, which means the sorc can actually damage your health the earliest using the 5th GCD.

And I already accounted for the Curse, which takes 3.5 seconds to proc, so it can be used exactly once in that 4 GCD long window.

ToRelax

Galarthor wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

Obviously you are the one with the l2p issues.

Breaking Scales with only light attacks requires 4 global cooldowns. That's 4 global cooldowns during which you are essentially doing nothing to the DK, you are not putting any pressure on the DK whatsoever since you are dealing a grand total of 0 damage. At the same time the DK is hitting you with 4 light attacks and 4 abilities. And only after the DK has been punching in your face for 4 global cooldowns you can even consider to attack him on the 5th GCD. But the DK can easily reapply his wings and the whole thing repeats itself. And it get's even better, those 4 light attacks the sorc was spamming are all refelctable and hit the sorc aswell.

So in essence: So in essence over an interval of 4 GCD the DK dealt damage equivalent to 8 Light attacks and 4 abilities to the sorc. Meanwhile the sorc dealt 0 damage to the DK. Well the Sorc could use Curse which takes 3.5 to proc so the Sorc dealt 0 light attacks and 1 ability worth of damage to the DK.

I don't know about you, but I got the strange feeling that: 8L +4A =/= 0L +1A

But I can see why DKs find the status quo so appealing and don't want it to change.
But you keep on running around in the forums telling others that THEY got l2p issues ...

It's not quite that extreme, the Sorc should use Curse at least once in this time frame and the DK can cast only three other skills between Scales when keeping them up the entire time.

Actually it is.
You got 4 global cooldowns you can do anything you want as a DK and only on your 5th you will have to consider to reapply shields. B/c after you applied your wings it takes 4 global cooldowns for the sorc to take down your wing, which means the sorc can actually damage your health the earliest using the 5th GCD.

And I already accounted for the Curse, which takes 3.5 seconds to proc, so it can be used exactly once in that 4 GCD long window.

If the Sorc is using a light attack once per second and not firing other projectiles, it will take them between 3 and 4 seconds to take scales down, depending on the point in their rotation they were at at the time scales were cast. If the DK then recasts scales 4 seconds later, it will be just in time to reflect the next light attack. Casting them 4 seconds later means there is time for 3 GCDs other than scales between the casts.

bardx86

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

WHAT? so 4 GCD is the way? dude you would be dead as a sorc or in 4 sec they would just recast. Seriously try and get into competitive PVP.

Heimpai

I’ve recently gone from magblade to magsorc so i don’t know the class well tbh but I’m having success using defensive rune then light attacking, when the la reflects they get caged then burst them or at least you have extra time to regen

It also helps with snipe spammers so i don’t see it as a wasted slot

Galarthor

ToRelax wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

Obviously you are the one with the l2p issues.

Breaking Scales with only light attacks requires 4 global cooldowns. That's 4 global cooldowns during which you are essentially doing nothing to the DK, you are not putting any pressure on the DK whatsoever since you are dealing a grand total of 0 damage. At the same time the DK is hitting you with 4 light attacks and 4 abilities. And only after the DK has been punching in your face for 4 global cooldowns you can even consider to attack him on the 5th GCD. But the DK can easily reapply his wings and the whole thing repeats itself. And it get's even better, those 4 light attacks the sorc was spamming are all refelctable and hit the sorc aswell.

So in essence: So in essence over an interval of 4 GCD the DK dealt damage equivalent to 8 Light attacks and 4 abilities to the sorc. Meanwhile the sorc dealt 0 damage to the DK. Well the Sorc could use Curse which takes 3.5 to proc so the Sorc dealt 0 light attacks and 1 ability worth of damage to the DK.

I don't know about you, but I got the strange feeling that: 8L +4A =/= 0L +1A

But I can see why DKs find the status quo so appealing and don't want it to change.
But you keep on running around in the forums telling others that THEY got l2p issues ...

It's not quite that extreme, the Sorc should use Curse at least once in this time frame and the DK can cast only three other skills between Scales when keeping them up the entire time.

Actually it is.
You got 4 global cooldowns you can do anything you want as a DK and only on your 5th you will have to consider to reapply shields. B/c after you applied your wings it takes 4 global cooldowns for the sorc to take down your wing, which means the sorc can actually damage your health the earliest using the 5th GCD.

And I already accounted for the Curse, which takes 3.5 seconds to proc, so it can be used exactly once in that 4 GCD long window.

If the Sorc is using a light attack once per second and not firing other projectiles, it will take them between 3 and 4 seconds to take scales down, depending on the point in their rotation they were at at the time scales were cast. If the DK then recasts scales 4 seconds later, it will be just in time to reflect the next light attack. Casting them 4 seconds later means there is time for 3 GCDs other than scales between the casts.

Well it will only be 3 GCDs if the sorc hits the DK right away in second 0 when he casts the wings.
But given that DKs usually use those wings before the first blast hits, it is more likely than not that they will be 1 GCD ahead of the sorc. This means he will have 4 GCD. And even if the sorc hits the wings at second 0, which will give the DK a total of 3 GCD the situation is not much better.

You'd get:
6L +3A =/= 0L +0A

Instead of:
8L +4A =/= 0L +1A

Because in the 3 GCDs between Wings the DK will use 3 light attacks + 3 abilities. At the same time, the sorc already hitting the DK in second 0, will still land 0 attacks. In fact, 3 GCDs isn't even enough to proc the Curse which needs 3.5 seconds.

We could expand the whole thing to also include the light attacks used in second 0 when the wings are applied (which is 1 light attack each), which assuming the sorc will always start with a curse (which now procs b/c we are looking at 4 secs again) would result into:

8L + 3A =/= 0L + 1A

But given that the sorc will most likely start with a shield just like the DK start with wings, it is far more realistic that the equation will look like this:

8L + 3A =/= 0L + 0A

And that is assuming that the sorc hits the wings in the instant they are cast.

However, if the DK casts the wings before the fight starts and thus remains 1 GCD ahead of the sorc we get:

9L + 4A =/= 0L + 1A

since the DK now get off 5 Light Attacks, before having to recast the wings.


In reality the (in)equation will be somewhere between:

8L + 3A =/= 0L + 0A (Best case scenario for the sorc)

And

9L + 4A =/= 0L + 1A (Best case scenario for the DK)

Either way it remains highly imbalanced.


Note: I did not choose 8L + 3A =/= 0L + 1A as the best case scenario for the sorc b/c it is realistic to assume that the sorc will also start with shields just like the DK starts with wings. Even if you were to assume 8L + 3A =/= 0L + 1A it doesn't really change the outcome.

twofaced

When you're talking about LA GDC make sure you count it right. Delay between LA is 600ms. So you can deplete scales in 2,5 sec. BUT in realuty it's not possible to spam LA to DK. For example I got 20k damage back if I do this, because my LA deals 4k plus 35% reflected "bonus". I'd be dead in this 2.5 sec. DK don't even need to hit me. Press a button to win.

DK is still killable, but with exact certain HA build. HONESTLY devs, Magsorc gameplay is like 4 different builds for each class you face. I can't even imagine my life without Dressing Room addon. Annoying af.

Jsmalls

I agree that wings hard counter ranged Magicka players (Mag Sorcs and Mag Nb).

But Mag DKs aren't in some overpowered spot either, and are also hard countered by other classes. Such as Templars (Stam and Mag), and stamina classes with forward momentum/shuffle since all their damage is close range. They also are mostly slow single target killers, which does not play well with this games play style.

I'm not saying it should be this way because it shouldn't, but this is a persistent problem in the game that is being brought up again because Wings are now usable (snare/root immunity for 4 secs? Is huge)

But I also think I'm a competitive 1v1 stand point ranged Magicka classes are greatly suffering already. It's very easy to counter and the damage isn't very high.

Galarthor

twofaced wrote: »

When you're talking about LA GDC make sure you count it right. Delay between LA is 600ms. So you can deplete scales in 2,5 sec. BUT in realuty it's not possible to spam LA to DK. For example I got 20k damage back if I do this, because my LA deals 4k plus 35% reflected "bonus". I'd be dead in this 2.5 sec. DK don't even need to hit me. Press a button to win.

DK is still killable, but with exact certain HA build. HONESTLY devs, Magsorc gameplay is like 4 different builds for each class you face. I can't even imagine my life without Dressing Room addon. Annoying af.

Well to keep it simple I assumed 1 light attack + 1 ability = 1 global cooldown. While the sorc may not be able to throw alot of offensive abilities, the sorc will have to use the shield at least twice in those 4 GCD. So together with the Curse we are at 3 GCD. The 4th will be either another shield, or maybe a heal, or a buff, maybe fury ... depending on the situation.

If I went through all the possible combinations / scenarios and the exact math then the post would be considerably longer and nobody would have read it. I am fairly sure, the post above was already too long for most people to read, even though it contained not that much text.

Savos_Saren

Those light attacks often come from multiple attackers. Not just a single player. So, you're not looking at a 4 GCD of just your attacks.

Again- wings is meant to drive off multiple attackers from range. PVP skills are based off AVA- not dueling. If you keep going back to 1v1 situations and trying to get wings nerfed for down to 1v1- then do the same for all skills.

Suddenly, empowering/hardening ward and harness magicka are going to be waaaaaay overpowered because they're set up to absorb incoming damage from multiple attackers. Not just 1v1 situations. Those shields would drop down to much weaker shields.

ToRelax

@Galarthor you can't just translate this model into what is actually happening. I showed a flaw in your assertion of what would happen if you tried to take down scales by weaving light attacks, you will hit scales in second 0 of their uptime unless dodged or you are stunned etc.
In reality, there is no starting rotations at the same time with defensive skills. The whole fight will revolve around both players trying to release their burst at an opportune moment when their opponent won't have all defenses up, and refreshing those defenses when that burst might be incoming.

twofaced wrote: »

When you're talking about LA GDC make sure you count it right. Delay between LA is 600ms. So you can deplete scales in 2,5 sec. BUT in realuty it's not possible to spam LA to DK. For example I got 20k damage back if I do this, because my LA deals 4k plus 35% reflected "bonus". I'd be dead in this 2.5 sec. DK don't even need to hit me. Press a button to win.

DK is still killable, but with exact certain HA build. HONESTLY devs, Magsorc gameplay is like 4 different builds for each class you face. I can't even imagine my life without Dressing Room addon. Annoying af.

Assuming anyone spams light attacks without abilities makes little sense I think.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Those light attacks often come from multiple attackers. Not just a single player. So, you're not looking at a 4 GCD of just your attacks.

Again- wings is meant to drive off multiple attackers from range. PVP skills are based off AVA- not dueling. If you keep going back to 1v1 situations and trying to get wings nerfed for down to 1v1- then do the same for all skills.

Suddenly, empowering/hardening ward and harness magicka are going to be waaaaaay overpowered because they're set up to absorb incoming damage from multiple attackers. Not just 1v1 situations. Those shields would drop down to much weaker shields.

Wings are garbage against 2+ projectile based builds. That's hardly balance either. And yes, shields are another non scaling defensive mechanic. Should be adjusted as well.

Urvoth

Galarthor wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

Obviously you are the one with the l2p issues.

Breaking Scales with only light attacks requires 4 global cooldowns. That's 4 global cooldowns during which you are essentially doing nothing to the DK, you are not putting any pressure on the DK whatsoever since you are dealing a grand total of 0 damage. At the same time the DK is hitting you with 4 light attacks and 4 abilities. And only after the DK has been punching in your face for 4 global cooldowns you can even consider to attack him on the 5th GCD. But the DK can easily reapply his wings and the whole thing repeats itself. And it get's even better, those 4 light attacks the sorc was spamming are all refelctable and hit the sorc aswell.

So in essence: So in essence over an interval of 4 GCD the DK dealt damage equivalent to 8 Light attacks and 4 abilities to the sorc. Meanwhile the sorc dealt 0 damage to the DK. Well the Sorc could use Curse which takes 3.5 to proc so the Sorc dealt 0 light attacks and 1 ability worth of damage to the DK.

I don't know about you, but I got the strange feeling that: 8L +4A =/= 0L +1A

But I can see why DKs find the status quo so appealing and don't want it to change.
But you keep on running around in the forums telling others that THEY got l2p issues ...

I’m a sorc main, not DK. You weave light attacks between your non reflectable abilities and then CC them with rune cage as your combo hits before they can put wings back up. Your LAs do barely any dmg vs your shields when reflected and if your timing is good, you can land everything when wings goes down.

Urvoth

bardx86 wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

It’s not hard. Use light attacks to take their wings off and make them waste magicka recasting. You can also use force pulse and rune cage instead of flame reach. Fighting dks on a sorc is a l2p issue.

WHAT? so 4 GCD is the way? dude you would be dead as a sorc or in 4 sec they would just recast. Seriously try and get into competitive PVP.

I’m a high bg mmr magsorc that fights dk mains every game. You don’t spam light attacks, you weave them with non reflectable skills like wrath, curse, force pulse, and rune cage. If your positioning and timing is good, you can kill them fine and hit your burst when wings go down. Just don’t hit them with frags while wings are up.

Urvoth

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As a Magicka Sorc, how do I counter the 100% uptime DK's have with reflect scales in PvP? Everything I cast just comes back to me, and then they talons and whip me to death in close combat. I don't feel like this is very balanced.

I use lightning staff front bar, restro staff back bar.
Use following skills: Crushing shock, Elemental drain, Curse, Endless furry and Frags.
Meteor ultimate and resto ultimate.

Of the above only Frags are reflect-able and you use it between DK's wings...if it is 100% up just don't use it.

It is a long fight, but it is well balanced imo, unlike Templar's Power of Light + Bleed + Dawn-breaker + Jabs + Proc set for example.

Yeah but you have no hard cc on your bar.

Conduit0 wrote: »

Curse, mages wrath, force pulse, and lightning staff heavies can not be reflected. Wings does not provide CC immunity, it provides snare immunity, so they can still be stunned. When you get a frag proc, rune cage/streak/stun of choice them then blast them in the face with frags before they can break free. Bonus points if you can time your stun/frag combo with a haunting curse tick.

Lightning staff heavy + curse will not be able to get them down because they have insane healing, so no execute can be used either. This means I have to change my whole bar in order to have force pulse and a hard cc.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

As a Magicka Sorc, how do I counter the 100% uptime DK's have with reflect scales in PvP? Everything I cast just comes back to me, and then they talons and whip me to death in close combat. I don't feel like this is very balanced.

I used a stun.

Like I have a stun, destructive clench, but it gets reflected back to me... Rune cage takes up another slot, and after the changes to overload, and a pet taking up two slots, I can't afford it. How is it fair they only have to slot 1 ability to hard counter 75% of my abilities? That is not balanced.

Banana wrote: »

As a mdk i find cloak more annoying

Well I find cloak annoying too, a spammable disengage that can be used while someone is channeling lightning heavy on you. It's bs. Then don't get me started on players standing in base in BG spamming snipe. There is no counter play, no risk to them for doing it. Stealth should have a cooldown and an extended duration, that way you still can travel in stealth, BUT once you commit to a fight you can't just instantly disappear when you're about to die unless you engage and save your cloak. Also hate seeing it spammed for criticals, because you can't hit them in between their cloak attacks. Snipe just needs either a damage nerf or a range nerf.

Don’t use a pet then.

ezio45

Conduit0 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

Curse, mages wrath, force pulse, and lightning staff heavies can not be reflected. Wings does not provide CC immunity, it provides snare immunity, so they can still be stunned. When you get a frag proc, rune cage/streak/stun of choice them then blast them in the face with frags before they can break free. Bonus points if you can time your stun/frag combo with a haunting curse tick.

pulse can i think if its a fire staff

and oh yey, the only good stun sorc has is flame reach, that can be reflected

Force Pulse/Crushing Shock is more powerful on a fire staff since the Ancient Knowledge passive increases single target damage by 8% when using a fire staff, and it can't be reflected either way. Also Sorcs have access to multiple stuns, streak and rune cage are both effective stuns and even the scamp aoe pulse can be used to stun opponents. In fact the scamp stun can be hugely effective with some practice on the timing since players usually ignore pets.

pretty sure pluse can be reflected

and no, streak sucks, runecage sucks, mines is situational at best and i cant believe your suggesting pets for cyro

Urvoth

ezio45 wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

Curse, mages wrath, force pulse, and lightning staff heavies can not be reflected. Wings does not provide CC immunity, it provides snare immunity, so they can still be stunned. When you get a frag proc, rune cage/streak/stun of choice them then blast them in the face with frags before they can break free. Bonus points if you can time your stun/frag combo with a haunting curse tick.

pulse can i think if its a fire staff

and oh yey, the only good stun sorc has is flame reach, that can be reflected

Force Pulse/Crushing Shock is more powerful on a fire staff since the Ancient Knowledge passive increases single target damage by 8% when using a fire staff, and it can't be reflected either way. Also Sorcs have access to multiple stuns, streak and rune cage are both effective stuns and even the scamp aoe pulse can be used to stun opponents. In fact the scamp stun can be hugely effective with some practice on the timing since players usually ignore pets.

pretty sure pluse can be reflected

and no, streak sucks, runecage sucks, mines is situational at best and i cant believe your suggesting pets for cyro

Pulse can’t be, streak isn’t viable to use as a stun, and pets are pretty meh. Rune cage is actually still viable though.

Galarthor

@ToRelax , ofc it does not depict 100% accurately what's going on. You'd have to factor in latency, different skill level of the players, timing between the first abilities used and attacks landed on both sides, etc, etc, etc.

But the purpose of this model is the show the fundamental problem with (current) sorcs VS scales. And the model does that quite well by illustrating how many attacks more the DK can land on a sorc than vice versa.

And btw, the gap only increases if you factor in stuns, since the Sorc cannot really stun the DK, but the DK can stun the Sorc, thus, giving the DK another GCD before having to recast the wings. But I omitted that b/c it is a model that showcases the fundamental imbalance and not an exact reconstruction of a particular encounter - b/c every encounter is unique.

Trying to say the model has no validity b/c it does not meticulously reconstruct an engagement down to the millisecond is nit-picking.

But if you feel I forgot a crucial factor, let me know.

Note: things like "maybe the DK does not use his abilities as fast as the sorc does" don't count, b/c you can make that argument for the sorc as well, so they cancel out.

simeion

Sorry but this issue is a build or a learn to play issue. I have fought plenty of Sorcs that know how to play against a DK with and without a build to fight DKs. If you are having an issue fighting mDKs you need to change your build or not fight the DK. Sorcs complaining about wing and not thinking about how templars negate DKs have not clue. Each class in this game has a class that counters another.

For those calling for a DK wing nerf go play mDK for a month straight and tell me DK wings are not balances. Every class that the DK can shutdown some of the attack has the capability to reset or leave the fight.

The standard mDKs build are a melee class that require target to be close to do damage. Then are expected to be alright being T off on by snipers, sorcs, and magblades from a distance. DK is supposed to be the stand your ground class and with no mobility.

I agree reflect can be a strong mechanic but you have to take yourself out of the mentality of my class is negates because all glasses have a hard counter to other classes.

Elusiin

simeion wrote: »

Sorry but this issue is a build or a learn to play issue.

Let me stop you right there, as this is neither. A spammable self buff that completely nullifies all projectile damage and cc to you, redirects it back onto the caster, prevents the caster from weaving light attacks, and allows you to attack the caster while immune to their damage is broken. There is no balancing such a mechanic, It must be removed from the game.

simeion

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

simeion wrote: »

Sorry but this issue is a build or a learn to play issue.

Let me stop you right there, as this is neither. A spammable self buff that completely nullifies all projectile damage and cc to you, redirects it back onto the caster, prevents the caster from weaving light attacks, and allows you to attack the caster while immune to their damage is broken. There is no balancing such a mechanic, It must be removed from the game.

Sorry but saying it is and not supporting any data are two different things. I have fought plenty of Sorcs that build for DKs or play well against them and even win. Wings do not make you immune to CC, it has a two 2 snare immunity. Sorcs have plenty of ways to CC a DK besides using something that is reflectable. Players need to adjust. I guess it is a DK to winning a fight and a player to streak or cloak away and the DK has nothing they can do. There is balance. DK is strong against Sorcs. Sorcs are strong against Nightblades. Templars are strong against DKs.

DK deal with the same thing with extended ritual. DK needs to pressure with DOTS and when they are always being purged it hurts the DK. But the templar needs purge to be effective.

I just want to make sure I understand. If we remove wings it is okay for a class to T off on a melee class from range with no counter? I would listen to any idea that makes them more balanced? Let them only reflect projectiles over 7 meters, this put the player in DK attack range and give the ability to counter the wings beside using ones intelligence, but lets dumb down things for player more than they are already.