New dungeons better be normal

mairwen85 · January 2019

@Arunei

We're essentially saying the same thing here. What I am saying differently is that (purely in the context of the thread title and opening post, but also as an extension of the discussion) if the new DLC 'normal' is easier than then previous DLC 'normal', but veteran stays the same -- the new DLC will not prepare players for veteran versions. This is detrimental to players who want challenging content. Vet only groups will be frustrated with players of lower skill (as they are now for the same reason), players who dabble in both will also be impacted and have a steeper learning curve (as illustrated in the post I linked previously). This creates a divide in ability and enjoyment of the content -- much as it is now. If ZoS instead introduce a lower than normal difficulty version, you instead have the same dungeon in incremental difficulty that is suitable for the entire player base. Casual would be at the base dungeon normal, normal would be at the expected DLC normal, and so on...

what can't happen is that Wrathstone becomes and exception to the established norm, it should instead be an example. Putting story into a dungeon this way is already an exception, but adding the new mode would redefine that as a new direction for group content -- and example for future expectations and far more inclusive.

Arunei · January 2019

@mairwen85
Hmmmm, I can see your point on there being a considerably larger difficulty gap between normal and Vet for Wrathstone dungeons in that case than tends to exist for dungeons in general. One could argue that people should expect Vet and/or HM to be quite a bit harder either way, especially for DLC dungeons, but then it would depend on just how wide that difficulty gap is. For example, on a smaller scale, in vFH, Domihaus is a major jump in difficulty, imo at least, from all the other bosses in that dungeon, and it's really jarring when you can get through 95% of vFH with no issues but then wipe over and over and over on Domihaus because he's a freaking jerk (I might be a little salty that he's being nerfed AFTER me and a few friends nearly smashed our faces in trying across several days to beat that darn dungeon). So in a way, that could be translated to a larger picture between super easy normal and then typical difficulty on vet; the difference might be jarring.

On the other hand, I still think we could say that not all DLC dungeons need to be really hard on normal, and we could have varying degrees of difficulty. I've heard the Wolfhunter dungeons are some of the hardest DLC dungeons released so far, but then we have fairly easy ones like Scalecaller Peak and ICP. The Wrathstone dungeons don't necessarily have to be Wolfhunter difficulty, they could be scaled back to be equal with some of the earlier DLC dungeons.

And again, I wouldn't oppose a story mode for Wrathstone's dungeons or even for dungeons overall. We all see the number of threads made by frustrated players who just want to enjoy a dungeon, even vanilla ones, for the quest/story and for the aesthetics, but they get rushed by other members of the group who just want to blast through stuff as fast as possible. Sadly, as has been shown here and in threads directly pertaining to such a mode, a lot of people do oppose the idea for whatever reason.

Arunei · January 2019

josiahva wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Just want to say I went into a normal Fang Lair for a pledge the other day. I was healer at cp795 and the Dps was 810. The second dps and tank, both max CP, dropped as soon as they ported in. One said "too long" and the other didn't bother saying anything.

and neither said "too dificult". Not sure why people pug if they dot want to play.

Well, the problem is we have no way to filter DLC dungeons, which do tend to take longer and be harder than vanilla ones, from the LFG tool when doing random dailies. People aren't leaving the dungeons because they don't want to play, they're leaving because maybe they don't have time to spend one or two hours on a DLC dungeon (you never know if you've got a group who can handle the content right away and some people don't have the time to spare finding out) or perhaps maybe they know they aren't skilled enough to be doing those DLC dungeons.

As they say, it's not good to assume. It makes an ass out of you and me.

ZOS_RogerJ · January 2019

Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed from this thread, to keep the thread on-topic, civil and constructive. While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole.

AlnilamE · January 2019

Arunei wrote: »

And beyond that, why are people complaining about others wanting normal versions of DLC dungeons to be easier, when Vet and HM versions exist for the people who can do the harder content? How would normal being made more accessible to more people hurt any of you who only want the 'harder content' when it's not that harder content people are asking to be toned down?

And what about the people who enjoy the normal dungeons as they are, but think that Vet and Hard Mode are too stressful? Where do we end up? Running Fungal Grotto 1 level dungeons over and over again to all eternity?

I've not seen anyone yet say that they tried a normal DLC dungeon 5 times and failed every time. Are they a bit longer than Fungal Grotto 1 and Spindleclutch 1? Yes, they are. Are they impossibly to complete in a PUG? Not at all. I only had one normal Scalecaller run fall apart so far, and that was early on when we were all there for the first time and people left after wiping to the ogres 3 times.

Other than that, I've run Scalecaller, Mazzatun, Cradle of Shadows, Falkreath and Bloodrot forge numerous times using the random dungeon finder and was always successful. Sometimes there's a wipe at a boss, but most of the time it's a smooth run.

The feeling I get is that people give up on a dungeon if they don't succeed on the first try, and I don't think that should be the baseline. Failing sometimes is ok. Try to figure out what went wrong and try again.

I remember before One Tamriel when I ran vet dungeons more regularly, how hard vet Crypt of Heart (now CoH II) was. There was just so much stuff happening on the last boss, we just wiped so many times. Then you got used to the mechanics and you could anticipate what he would do and it became a lot easier. The same is true for the DLCs. They can be completed on the first try, but they will get easier with practice as well, so don't give up and enjoy the ride.

Vaerth · January 2019

ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »

Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed from this thread, to keep the thread on-topic, civil and constructive. While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole.

So, are they normal or no?

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · January 2019

AlnilamE wrote: »

No DLC dungeon is harder than City of Ash 2, so there you go.

LOL

The Planar Inhibitor in normal WGT, is more difficult for many "not so good" DDs, compared to the whole COA2, which relies on a good tank.

AlnilamE · January 2019

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

No DLC dungeon is harder than City of Ash 2, so there you go.

LOL

The Planar Inhibitor in normal WGT, is more difficult for many "not so good" DDs, compared to the whole COA2, which relies on a good tank.

Planar Inhibitor can be done by not so good DDs if people take turns on the pinion and have at least one ranged skill on their bar for portals. It can get a bit hectic the first time you are there, but I've had no group wipe more than twice there.

Arunei · January 2019

AlnilamE wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

And beyond that, why are people complaining about others wanting normal versions of DLC dungeons to be easier, when Vet and HM versions exist for the people who can do the harder content? How would normal being made more accessible to more people hurt any of you who only want the 'harder content' when it's not that harder content people are asking to be toned down?

And what about the people who enjoy the normal dungeons as they are, but think that Vet and Hard Mode are too stressful? Where do we end up? Running Fungal Grotto 1 level dungeons over and over again to all eternity?

Not necessarily. Making the normal versions easier doesn't have to mean nuking them down to FG or Wayrest 1 levels. But making things more accessible overall to more people isn't a bad thing, and there can still be a variety of difficulties between both vanilla and DLC dungeons. Do they all have to be hard or do they all have to be easy? No, but they all should be able to be something everyone has a fair shot at being able to complete. The really end game stuff like trials, vet trials, and doing the Challenger achieves for the DLC dungeons/trials will also always still exist for people wanting harder content, as no one is saying those need any sort of changes.

I've not seen anyone yet say that they tried a normal DLC dungeon 5 times and failed every time. Are they a bit longer than Fungal Grotto 1 and Spindleclutch 1? Yes, they are. Are they impossibly to complete in a PUG? Not at all. I only had one normal Scalecaller run fall apart so far, and that was early on when we were all there for the first time and people left after wiping to the ogres 3 times.

Just because you haven't seen anyone say it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People post here all the time about continuously failing pugging for vanilla dungeons for whatever reason. I've had dungeon pugs fall apart and fail on DLC dungeons, I've had easy runs too. And yes, a lot of the times these dungeons CAN be impossible to pug, since it's completely random (unless you group up with 1-3 other people) who you'll get paid with. You might get that person who can only do 10k DPS and the tank that's still leveling, or a healer who's more concerned with DD than the heals and buffs, and so on.

Other than that, I've run Scalecaller, Mazzatun, Cradle of Shadows, Falkreath and Bloodrot forge numerous times using the random dungeon finder and was always successful. Sometimes there's a wipe at a boss, but most of the time it's a smooth run.

Your experience is not everyone else's. Again, a loooooot of people post fairly often about having terrible luck in dungeons, both vanilla and DLC. When I was pugging I got these dungeons a lot too, and a lot of the time people will either just nope out of the group (which I've had to do a few times when I found myself in a DLC dungeon I knew I wasn't equipped to run) or there will be multiple wipes that result in the group giving up. We all have different experience.

The feeling I get is that people give up on a dungeon if they don't succeed on the first try, and I don't think that should be the baseline. Failing sometimes is ok. Try to figure out what went wrong and try again.

It could be that, or it could be people having legitimate limitations that keep them from succeeding at the dungeon. When my and my friends decided to do vBF and vFH, we spent hours on the first and had to shuffle group member and characters, and even then it was a slog to make it. vFH took us a lot longer, with the first run ending in numerous wipes at Domihaus before two of the group had to go. My and the other person tried to pug it but that failed miserably. A few days later we tried again, and there were even more wipes at Domihaus (iirc at least) but that time we managed to clear it. But there are people who play this game who might not have the luxury of running harder content with decently skilled friends, or may have a harder time with things for whatever reason. Part of the reason it was so hard for us doing vFH is because my situational awareness isn't all that great. I try to pay attention to things that are going on, but then my attention gets distracted by several different things and I lose track of what's going on somewhere else. That there isn't a L2P or git gud issue, it's a matter of how I perceive and react to things, and for me it's not nearly as good as other people. That's just one example of something that can hold people back from content that others might consider easy.

I remember before One Tamriel when I ran vet dungeons more regularly, how hard vet Crypt of Heart (now CoH II) was. There was just so much stuff happening on the last boss, we just wiped so many times. Then you got used to the mechanics and you could anticipate what he would do and it became a lot easier. The same is true for the DLCs. They can be completed on the first try, but they will get easier with practice as well, so don't give up and enjoy the ride.

I doubt anyone is running DLC dungeons and clearing them on their first try, unless they're running in a group with someone who's done it before or they're an exceptionally lucky group. There's too much needing to get a hang of the mechanics (even if you're using a guide to know what those mechanics are, it doesn't help you learn and adapt to them like actually getting in there does) for a group who are all doing stuff the first time. And while yes, the content does get easier the more you run it and become familiar with it, that's only the case if you can run and complete it to begin with. I, for example, will probably never do a trial like MoL simply because it takes so long and such planning to get a raid together for it. I'm never going to learn and get used to MoL mechanics if I can't take part in and clear the content.

Androconium · January 2019

ookami007 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

How about this: players play the game, skill up, advance and progress until they can complete the new dungeons.

Let's ease up on the hate speech.

Hate speech? I think you'll find that it's sarcasm.

Very minor sarcasm at that, as the DLC dungeons are intended to supplement what you have already done; not be an introduction to the game.

So, let's ease up on the feigned outrage, yes?

karekiz · January 2019

jainiadral wrote: »

...and this is why I hate MMO bosses. None of these mechanics make sense on a very basic level, or in world/story logic. They're just there to test group coordination and make sure you have something to make combat more interesting*. And so devs can pat themselves on the back and say, "Look at this cool thing I just made!"

Your kinda wrong on that. A lot of bosses are based on theme's, themes that tend to be based on the mob type or lore surrounding it. It isn't hard to think that "big baddie X" has a trick up their sleeve that the <Insert player hero RP here> hasn't discovered.

Of course they make a mechanics to be interesting at the same time. It would be silly to say "Alright guys, lets make the worst encounter everybody hates!" Or even. Alright guys we need tank and spank on all our dungeons. So make the mob do light attacks - a couple heavy - and bam copy paste that mofo and were done.

Libonotus · January 2019

karekiz wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

...and this is why I hate MMO bosses. None of these mechanics make sense on a very basic level, or in world/story logic. They're just there to test group coordination and make sure you have something to make combat more interesting*. And so devs can pat themselves on the back and say, "Look at this cool thing I just made!"

Your kinda wrong on that. A lot of bosses are based on theme's, themes that tend to be based on the mob type or lore surrounding it. It isn't hard to think that "big baddie X" has a trick up their sleeve that the <Insert player hero RP here> hasn't discovered.

Of course they make a mechanics to be interesting at the same time. It would be silly to say "Alright guys, lets make the worst encounter everybody hates!" Or even. Alright guys we need tank and spank on all our dungeons. So make the mob do light attacks - a couple heavy - and bam copy paste that mofo and were done.

:think:

Reistr_the_Unbroken · January 2019

Libonotus wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

...and this is why I hate MMO bosses. None of these mechanics make sense on a very basic level, or in world/story logic. They're just there to test group coordination and make sure you have something to make combat more interesting*. And so devs can pat themselves on the back and say, "Look at this cool thing I just made!"

Your kinda wrong on that. A lot of bosses are based on theme's, themes that tend to be based on the mob type or lore surrounding it. It isn't hard to think that "big baddie X" has a trick up their sleeve that the <Insert player hero RP here> hasn't discovered.

Of course they make a mechanics to be interesting at the same time. It would be silly to say "Alright guys, lets make the worst encounter everybody hates!" Or even. Alright guys we need tank and spank on all our dungeons. So make the mob do light attacks - a couple heavy - and bam copy paste that mofo and were done.

:think:

I read the quote “big baddie X” and I thought it said something else-

josiahva · January 2019

Arunei wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

And beyond that, why are people complaining about others wanting normal versions of DLC dungeons to be easier, when Vet and HM versions exist for the people who can do the harder content? How would normal being made more accessible to more people hurt any of you who only want the 'harder content' when it's not that harder content people are asking to be toned down?

And what about the people who enjoy the normal dungeons as they are, but think that Vet and Hard Mode are too stressful? Where do we end up? Running Fungal Grotto 1 level dungeons over and over again to all eternity?

Not necessarily. Making the normal versions easier doesn't have to mean nuking them down to FG or Wayrest 1 levels. But making things more accessible overall to more people isn't a bad thing, and there can still be a variety of difficulties between both vanilla and DLC dungeons. Do they all have to be hard or do they all have to be easy? No, but they all should be able to be something everyone has a fair shot at being able to complete. The really end game stuff like trials, vet trials, and doing the Challenger achieves for the DLC dungeons/trials will also always still exist for people wanting harder content, as no one is saying those need any sort of changes.

I've not seen anyone yet say that they tried a normal DLC dungeon 5 times and failed every time. Are they a bit longer than Fungal Grotto 1 and Spindleclutch 1? Yes, they are. Are they impossibly to complete in a PUG? Not at all. I only had one normal Scalecaller run fall apart so far, and that was early on when we were all there for the first time and people left after wiping to the ogres 3 times.

Just because you haven't seen anyone say it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People post here all the time about continuously failing pugging for vanilla dungeons for whatever reason. I've had dungeon pugs fall apart and fail on DLC dungeons, I've had easy runs too. And yes, a lot of the times these dungeons CAN be impossible to pug, since it's completely random (unless you group up with 1-3 other people) who you'll get paid with. You might get that person who can only do 10k DPS and the tank that's still leveling, or a healer who's more concerned with DD than the heals and buffs, and so on.

Other than that, I've run Scalecaller, Mazzatun, Cradle of Shadows, Falkreath and Bloodrot forge numerous times using the random dungeon finder and was always successful. Sometimes there's a wipe at a boss, but most of the time it's a smooth run.

Your experience is not everyone else's. Again, a loooooot of people post fairly often about having terrible luck in dungeons, both vanilla and DLC. When I was pugging I got these dungeons a lot too, and a lot of the time people will either just nope out of the group (which I've had to do a few times when I found myself in a DLC dungeon I knew I wasn't equipped to run) or there will be multiple wipes that result in the group giving up. We all have different experience.

The feeling I get is that people give up on a dungeon if they don't succeed on the first try, and I don't think that should be the baseline. Failing sometimes is ok. Try to figure out what went wrong and try again.

It could be that, or it could be people having legitimate limitations that keep them from succeeding at the dungeon. When my and my friends decided to do vBF and vFH, we spent hours on the first and had to shuffle group member and characters, and even then it was a slog to make it. vFH took us a lot longer, with the first run ending in numerous wipes at Domihaus before two of the group had to go. My and the other person tried to pug it but that failed miserably. A few days later we tried again, and there were even more wipes at Domihaus (iirc at least) but that time we managed to clear it. But there are people who play this game who might not have the luxury of running harder content with decently skilled friends, or may have a harder time with things for whatever reason. Part of the reason it was so hard for us doing vFH is because my situational awareness isn't all that great. I try to pay attention to things that are going on, but then my attention gets distracted by several different things and I lose track of what's going on somewhere else. That there isn't a L2P or git gud issue, it's a matter of how I perceive and react to things, and for me it's not nearly as good as other people. That's just one example of something that can hold people back from content that others might consider easy.

I remember before One Tamriel when I ran vet dungeons more regularly, how hard vet Crypt of Heart (now CoH II) was. There was just so much stuff happening on the last boss, we just wiped so many times. Then you got used to the mechanics and you could anticipate what he would do and it became a lot easier. The same is true for the DLCs. They can be completed on the first try, but they will get easier with practice as well, so don't give up and enjoy the ride.

I doubt anyone is running DLC dungeons and clearing them on their first try, unless they're running in a group with someone who's done it before or they're an exceptionally lucky group. There's too much needing to get a hang of the mechanics (even if you're using a guide to know what those mechanics are, it doesn't help you learn and adapt to them like actually getting in there does) for a group who are all doing stuff the first time. And while yes, the content does get easier the more you run it and become familiar with it, that's only the case if you can run and complete it to begin with. I, for example, will probably never do a trial like MoL simply because it takes so long and such planning to get a raid together for it. I'm never going to learn and get used to MoL mechanics if I can't take part in and clear the content.

Wrong...both times on normal first try clear for the werwewolf dungeons...all new people in both of them...they are just not very hard on normal. To be truthful I got a first time clear on vet as well for them(though I had run them once each normal before I tried vet)

Smitch_59 · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

@Arunei

We're essentially saying the same thing here. What I am saying differently is that (purely in the context of the thread title and opening post, but also as an extension of the discussion) if the new DLC 'normal' is easier than then previous DLC 'normal', but veteran stays the same -- the new DLC will not prepare players for veteran versions. This is detrimental to players who want challenging content. Vet only groups will be frustrated with players of lower skill (as they are now for the same reason), players who dabble in both will also be impacted and have a steeper learning curve (as illustrated in the post I linked previously). This creates a divide in ability and enjoyment of the content -- much as it is now. If ZoS instead introduce a lower than normal difficulty version, you instead have the same dungeon in incremental difficulty that is suitable for the entire player base. Casual would be at the base dungeon normal, normal would be at the expected DLC normal, and so on...

what can't happen is that Wrathstone becomes and exception to the established norm, it should instead be an example. Putting story into a dungeon this way is already an exception, but adding the new mode would redefine that as a new direction for group content -- and example for future expectations and far more inclusive.

I for one have no interest in being "prepared for veteran versions" of dungeons. I don't enjoy hard content and therefore I don't play vet. I don't want to drag a group down and I don't want to be carried. I simply don't play vet, plain and simple. I play ESO to relax, not to be frustrated.

So your argument that I won't be prepared for vet is not relevant to me.

Rungar · January 2019

zos is pretty good making combat simulator mini trials but they dont know anything about making dungeons.

combat simulator relies on mechanic research and muscle memory (practice)

dungeon is a fun time in an interesting setting with variable goals that is challenging but not (necessarily/always) split second challenging.

when they learn the difference i will grant them 3 soul gems!

zvavi · January 2019

for those who gave me answers on my previous comments, as i were saying, story mode will be good for the game imo, i would love the game to have it, i was just being realistic that i dont believe there will exist one. and i think it will be harder on the server, because instead of generating 1 instance, it will have to generate 4. i mean, before it loads on your screen, it loads on the server. it is not a single player game that is on your computer.

my example with me going to tank vet was to show that the level of normal is not that high up if vet can be completed with 3 inexperienced players with dd's that can output 18k dps top. yes, we wiped a lot. but with a lot of encouraging and repeating mechanics, we passed it in the end. (honestly it might be because the dungeon mechanics are mostly taxing on the tank, and if he executes it well it is much easier for dd's and healer, but in normal, what else should he do other than permablock on first three bosses, ignore block and search for geysers at 4th, maybe last might be a problem).
usually you dont even need to know mechanics beforehand, since you are getting them explained by the npc that runs it with you #jorvuld

uh my comment was half wrong, was sure it is a different discussion. time to make a poll about it!

Arunei · January 2019

josiahva wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I doubt anyone is running DLC dungeons and clearing them on their first try, unless they're running in a group with someone who's done it before or they're an exceptionally lucky group. There's too much needing to get a hang of the mechanics (even if you're using a guide to know what those mechanics are, it doesn't help you learn and adapt to them like actually getting in there does) for a group who are all doing stuff the first time. And while yes, the content does get easier the more you run it and become familiar with it, that's only the case if you can run and complete it to begin with. I, for example, will probably never do a trial like MoL simply because it takes so long and such planning to get a raid together for it. I'm never going to learn and get used to MoL mechanics if I can't take part in and clear the content.

Wrong...both times on normal first try clear for the werwewolf dungeons...all new people in both of them...they are just not very hard on normal. To be truthful I got a first time clear on vet as well for them(though I had run them once each normal before I tried vet)

And that is most likely the exception, not the norm. Once again, the dungeons might not be hard to you, just like they aren't hard to me, but you and I aren't other players. Difficulty is very subjective and can vary wildly from one person to another depending on an array of factors.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2019

TimeWizard wrote: »

I am an experienced end game raider and I pug a lot of dungeons for fun, normal or vet, non-dlc or dlc its whatever. What my take away from all of this has been that the vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how the game mechanics work, no idea what dps even is, half the tanks have never heard of taunting, blocking or add control, I play a healer I end end up healing the group, tanking the boss, and doing 60-70% of group dps. I can carry groups through all non-dlc content, normal or vet, but I can't hard carry the wolfhunter dungeons.

I personally am in favor of harder and harder content being made, I don't think light attack bowtards who hide in the corner should get to feel like they can do content. I just wish that more people that queue for dungeons could actually play.

Exactly, one of the major issues is that Tam one was poorly implemented . sorry but the community should probably get on with the fact the game is a MMO. for the vast majority of us who love the genre, dumbing down the game so much so that all the overland content can be accomplished in underwear and light attacks has done nothing for the multiplayer aspect of the MMO acronym. none of the player base is prepared to play the actual game content. most of the problems arise when this whole population of single player RPG people deciede they want the things the actual MMO player achieved through team work , online community particpation , and finding friends in guilds to run groups with has achieved. when they realise it wont be served to them on a platter they scream cry and ask the game just be made a single player experience. ZOS is so greedy they will destroy their own game in a effort to make as much money as possible.Truthfully id have no problem if they turned the DLC dungeons into having VMA type diffculty versions for the solo community. i think what is wrong is these type of players really dont want single player content. they want the content to be dumbed down to a level they dont have to do anything to accomplish it. I wont play another MMO that is developed by a studio that wants only money and cares nothing for game play. this genre was fine when they had in mind 400 or 500 k in a player base was hugely profitable ,and they only needed a few hundred thousand subscriptions to stay in buisness. Catering to a population that just wants to play a single player RPG with a hard coded easy story mode is gross.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2019

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

It astounds me how many people are posting in this thread going on about people 'whinging for dungeons to be made easier' when the thread is talking about making the specific DLC dungeons tied to a year-long story easier for people who might normally have problems with DLC dungeons, not making normal DLC dungeons overall easier. Seriously, is reading comprehension that hard of a skill for people these days?

ZOS has never tied an overarching story line to previous DLC dungeons. The simple fact of the matter is if you don't do these dungeons, you're missing out on part of the story for Elseweyr. This was never a problem before because it's never been done before. Everyone on here posting about how people *should* be able to hit x or y DPS or *should* be able to find groups that won't rush them through content need to take something basic into consideration: not every person who plays this game is you. Just because you can do it doesn't mean everyone can. Do people not take into consideration things like lag b/c of internet providers, or slow reaction time because of possible disability? Not everyone is capable of doing this or that; if they were, threads like this wouldn't even exist.

And beyond that, why are people complaining about others wanting normal versions of DLC dungeons to be easier, when Vet and HM versions exist for the people who can do the harder content? How would normal being made more accessible to more people hurt any of you who only want the 'harder content' when it's not that harder content people are asking to be toned down?

If ZOS wants to tie DLC dungeons to overarching plots like this, they can't just keep ramping up the difficulty for them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting content tied to a new chapter to be something they can actually complete. And before anyone tries to say anything, I may not be the best player, but I've got a solidly built tank, a pretty good healer (tho she still needs her Olorime stuff), and several DPS chars who can hit 30k fairly easily. I've done a lot of the DLC dungeons on normal and several on Vet (Vet versions of HotR dungeons can die in a fire x__x). I've got friends I can ask to do these dungeons with me who are also extremely skilled in their roles. Am I a decent player? Sure. Do I think everyone else should be able to play on my level (even though it's not very high)? Absolutely not, b/c their circumstances and abilities may vary wildly from mine for any given reason.

This ^ is 100% true
some people probably didn’t read and just assumed the thread was about taking away the regular dungeons or something, and when people explain to them multiple times they still don’t get the point

ok none of the dungeons have been ever been mandatory for the main plot line. your mad that you cant experience the story lines of the dungeon?

Reistr_the_Unbroken · January 2019

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

I am an experienced end game raider and I pug a lot of dungeons for fun, normal or vet, non-dlc or dlc its whatever. What my take away from all of this has been that the vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how the game mechanics work, no idea what dps even is, half the tanks have never heard of taunting, blocking or add control, I play a healer I end end up healing the group, tanking the boss, and doing 60-70% of group dps. I can carry groups through all non-dlc content, normal or vet, but I can't hard carry the wolfhunter dungeons.

I personally am in favor of harder and harder content being made, I don't think light attack bowtards who hide in the corner should get to feel like they can do content. I just wish that more people that queue for dungeons could actually play.

Exactly, one of the major issues is that Tam one was poorly implemented . sorry but the community should probably get on with the fact the game is a MMO. for the vast majority of us who love the genre, dumbing down the game so much so that all the overland content can be accomplished in underwear and light attacks has done nothing for the multiplayer aspect of the MMO acronym. none of the player base is prepared to play the actual game content. most of the problems arise when this whole population of single player RPG people deciede they want the things the actual MMO player achieved through team work , online community particpation , and finding friends in guilds to run groups with has achieved. when they realise it wont be served to them on a platter they scream cry and ask the game just be made a single player experience. ZOS is so greedy they will destroy their own game in a effort to make as much money as possible.Truthfully id have no problem if they turned the DLC dungeons into having VMA type diffculty versions for the solo community. i think what is wrong is these type of players really dont want single player content. they want the content to be dumbed down to a level they dont have to do anything to accomplish it. I wont play another MMO that is developed by a studio that wants only money and cares nothing for game play. this genre was fine when they had in mind 400 or 500 k in a player base was hugely profitable ,and they only needed a few hundred thousand subscriptions to stay in buisness. Catering to a population that just wants to play a single player RPG with a hard coded easy story mode is gross.

Go play WildStar-
Oh wait.

Wifeaggro13 · February 2019

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

I am an experienced end game raider and I pug a lot of dungeons for fun, normal or vet, non-dlc or dlc its whatever. What my take away from all of this has been that the vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how the game mechanics work, no idea what dps even is, half the tanks have never heard of taunting, blocking or add control, I play a healer I end end up healing the group, tanking the boss, and doing 60-70% of group dps. I can carry groups through all non-dlc content, normal or vet, but I can't hard carry the wolfhunter dungeons.

I personally am in favor of harder and harder content being made, I don't think light attack bowtards who hide in the corner should get to feel like they can do content. I just wish that more people that queue for dungeons could actually play.

Exactly, one of the major issues is that Tam one was poorly implemented . sorry but the community should probably get on with the fact the game is a MMO. for the vast majority of us who love the genre, dumbing down the game so much so that all the overland content can be accomplished in underwear and light attacks has done nothing for the multiplayer aspect of the MMO acronym. none of the player base is prepared to play the actual game content. most of the problems arise when this whole population of single player RPG people deciede they want the things the actual MMO player achieved through team work , online community particpation , and finding friends in guilds to run groups with has achieved. when they realise it wont be served to them on a platter they scream cry and ask the game just be made a single player experience. ZOS is so greedy they will destroy their own game in a effort to make as much money as possible.Truthfully id have no problem if they turned the DLC dungeons into having VMA type diffculty versions for the solo community. i think what is wrong is these type of players really dont want single player content. they want the content to be dumbed down to a level they dont have to do anything to accomplish it. I wont play another MMO that is developed by a studio that wants only money and cares nothing for game play. this genre was fine when they had in mind 400 or 500 k in a player base was hugely profitable ,and they only needed a few hundred thousand subscriptions to stay in buisness. Catering to a population that just wants to play a single player RPG with a hard coded easy story mode is gross.

Go play WildStar-
Oh wait.

lol plenty of MMOs going strong . your argument is weak

Reistr_the_Unbroken · February 2019

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

I am an experienced end game raider and I pug a lot of dungeons for fun, normal or vet, non-dlc or dlc its whatever. What my take away from all of this has been that the vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how the game mechanics work, no idea what dps even is, half the tanks have never heard of taunting, blocking or add control, I play a healer I end end up healing the group, tanking the boss, and doing 60-70% of group dps. I can carry groups through all non-dlc content, normal or vet, but I can't hard carry the wolfhunter dungeons.

I personally am in favor of harder and harder content being made, I don't think light attack bowtards who hide in the corner should get to feel like they can do content. I just wish that more people that queue for dungeons could actually play.

Exactly, one of the major issues is that Tam one was poorly implemented . sorry but the community should probably get on with the fact the game is a MMO. for the vast majority of us who love the genre, dumbing down the game so much so that all the overland content can be accomplished in underwear and light attacks has done nothing for the multiplayer aspect of the MMO acronym. none of the player base is prepared to play the actual game content. most of the problems arise when this whole population of single player RPG people deciede they want the things the actual MMO player achieved through team work , online community particpation , and finding friends in guilds to run groups with has achieved. when they realise it wont be served to them on a platter they scream cry and ask the game just be made a single player experience. ZOS is so greedy they will destroy their own game in a effort to make as much money as possible.Truthfully id have no problem if they turned the DLC dungeons into having VMA type diffculty versions for the solo community. i think what is wrong is these type of players really dont want single player content. they want the content to be dumbed down to a level they dont have to do anything to accomplish it. I wont play another MMO that is developed by a studio that wants only money and cares nothing for game play. this genre was fine when they had in mind 400 or 500 k in a player base was hugely profitable ,and they only needed a few hundred thousand subscriptions to stay in buisness. Catering to a population that just wants to play a single player RPG with a hard coded easy story mode is gross.

Go play WildStar-
Oh wait.

lol plenty of MMOs going strong . your argument is weak

Just because you and what, the 5% of you, can clear hardcore content, doesn’t mean the rest of us can or want it.

FlyingSwan · February 2019

Completed both of the new dungeons in my lunch hour. Only did them on normal so I can learn the layout etc., both faceroll easy, one wipe on Frostvault where we had to sus out the mechs on the boss but the rest was the typical ESO button mashing spamfest.

Storm in a teacup.

Starlock · February 2019

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Completed both of the new dungeons in my lunch hour. Only did them on normal so I can learn the layout etc., both faceroll easy, one wipe on Frostvault where we had to sus out the mechs on the boss but the rest was the typical ESO button mashing spamfest.

Storm in a teacup.

This doesn't really tell us much without you telling us a bit about yourself. Are you a competitive gamer? Do you min-max? Are you among the many that do not find it easy to reach 30k dps? Do you run dungeons often? Was the group made entirely of randoms? What was voice/text communication like?

I have to assume that if you found it "faceroll easy" you are a min-maxing meta following super experienced elite player, because there are a bunch of things that prevent dungeons from being "faceroll easy" for the majority of players, especially the latest DLC dungeons. I'm really, really skeptical that these dungeons are on par with, say, base game normal dungeons (which can be legitimately "faceroll easy" even for players who are not min-maxers).

BuddyAces · February 2019

Starlock wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Completed both of the new dungeons in my lunch hour. Only did them on normal so I can learn the layout etc., both faceroll easy, one wipe on Frostvault where we had to sus out the mechs on the boss but the rest was the typical ESO button mashing spamfest.

Storm in a teacup.

This doesn't really tell us much without you telling us a bit about yourself. Are you a competitive gamer? Do you min-max? Are you among the many that do not find it easy to reach 30k dps? Do you run dungeons often? Was the group made entirely of randoms? What was voice/text communication like?

I have to assume that if you found it "faceroll easy" you are a min-maxing meta following super experienced elite player, because there are a bunch of things that prevent dungeons from being "faceroll easy" for the majority of players, especially the latest DLC dungeons. I'm really, really skeptical that these dungeons are on par with, say, base game normal dungeons (which can be legitimately "faceroll easy" even for players who are not min-maxers).

I clear all vet dlc dungeons in a toss up of VO/Hundings/TFS. Sometimes I may combo in AY but when doing them the first time (speed/no death/hm) I usually stick with vo/hundings. Is that meta? They've been around since, well, forever?

When MHK/MOS launched and my group was learning that, we had skills on our bars that you don't use in vet trials.

You don't need meta to clear them.

FlyingSwan · February 2019

Starlock wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Completed both of the new dungeons in my lunch hour. Only did them on normal so I can learn the layout etc., both faceroll easy, one wipe on Frostvault where we had to sus out the mechs on the boss but the rest was the typical ESO button mashing spamfest.

Storm in a teacup.

This doesn't really tell us much without you telling us a bit about yourself. Are you a competitive gamer? Do you min-max? Are you among the many that do not find it easy to reach 30k dps? Do you run dungeons often? Was the group made entirely of randoms? What was voice/text communication like?

I have to assume that if you found it "faceroll easy" you are a min-maxing meta following super experienced elite player, because there are a bunch of things that prevent dungeons from being "faceroll easy" for the majority of players, especially the latest DLC dungeons. I'm really, really skeptical that these dungeons are on par with, say, base game normal dungeons (which can be legitimately "faceroll easy" even for players who are not min-maxers).

I'm a total casual, I only dinged CP cap last November despite playing since beta.

I do have some min-maxed chars, but was just pootling about over lunch when someone in zone asked me if I wanted to try them and we formed a PUG.

So the char I was using is a jack of all trades char I use to farm and quest with. He does only 25k DPS but I was still pulling 50% of the total DPS, so considering healer and small tank DPS input, the other DPS was below me, yet we still cleared very quickly. All my gear is half-crafted half-drops (Hundings/Blood Moon), as I can't be arsed to farm two dropped sets. I wear no trials gear at all. Tank for both was a mage with ice staff, nothing especially tanky. We'd all even forgotten to do our racial passives until the end of the first dungeon, one person stopped halfway through to answer the phone while we cleared trash, another DC'd at one point, a typically disorganised PUG.

If you do not believe me, logon and do them, they're a cakewalk (well below nMHK) but also nice to look at and of a nice duration, one has a fun mechanic at the end.

But as the other chap says, you do not need meta on any NORMAL dungeon in ESO, you just need a co-ordinated team for the likes of nMHK, but in this case we hardly spoke in chat. None of us had done these dungeons before.

emily3989 · February 2019

ookami007 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

How about this: players play the game, skill up, advance and progress until they can complete the new dungeons.

Let's ease up on the hate speech.

Wow, telling someone to actually try to learn a game for. Ore than 24 hours is now hate speech? Wow.

Vaerth · February 2019

Libonotus wrote: »

And by normal I mean the same difficulty as the old dungeons and some DLC dungeons on the normal setting. I don’t think it’s fair to have “normal” dlc dungeons be vet difficulty and vet dlc dungeons be trial difficulty. That means only a minority of the player base get to form the tablet and see Abnur Tharne

I wont even try it if it is that hard. I wont do trials as I enjoy more casual / exploring / story driven gameplay. I have done Vet dungeons years ago, but if DLC stuff is just harder than it should be I simply wont do it or pay for it.

zaria · February 2019

Starlock wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Completed both of the new dungeons in my lunch hour. Only did them on normal so I can learn the layout etc., both faceroll easy, one wipe on Frostvault where we had to sus out the mechs on the boss but the rest was the typical ESO button mashing spamfest.

Storm in a teacup.

This doesn't really tell us much without you telling us a bit about yourself. Are you a competitive gamer? Do you min-max? Are you among the many that do not find it easy to reach 30k dps? Do you run dungeons often? Was the group made entirely of randoms? What was voice/text communication like?

I have to assume that if you found it "faceroll easy" you are a min-maxing meta following super experienced elite player, because there are a bunch of things that prevent dungeons from being "faceroll easy" for the majority of players, especially the latest DLC dungeons. I'm really, really skeptical that these dungeons are on par with, say, base game normal dungeons (which can be legitimately "faceroll easy" even for players who are not min-maxers).

I tanked both of them on normal. Dropped quest on one as group was to gogogo. Wiped once because not understanding mechanic. Group dps was below 30K single target.
Medium CP group.

Problem with vet DLC is how much pain you are wiling to take for an clear.
Yes this kind of require you have progressed trough them.