So Liko did a complete Magicka DPS racial test. Check results here and stop spreading misinformation

What_In_Tarnation · January 2019

UrQuan wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Based on the sample size the differences are statistically insignificant. A larger sample would be required to be able to say for certain that the races tested are all capable of the same DPS output under full raid support conditions (and with a larger sample I'd expect to see less variation between the averages), but the parses provided certainly seem to support that conclusion.

Commancho wrote: »

That's mag DD comparision. What about healers, tanks, gankers etc?
Do you assume that everyone is playing magicka DD class?

This makes no sense. You can only do this kind of comparison with PVE DPS (and most likely the reason this is only comparing magicka DPS is just because the PTS hasn't been up for very long yet and he hasn't had a chance to do proper stamina DPS testing yet). There's no equivalent way to test and compare healers, tanks, or anything PVP because there are too many variables that cannot be removed from the equation.

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group? Like how many people here can get you a babysitter and dishing orbs, shards, major encourage and maybe even IA lightning staff heavy attack non-stop?

Tbh, both sustain of dark elf and khajiit will be really awful if your healers aren't dedicated enough. And judging by how many healers actually think they don't need to provide elemental drain and orbs/shards here from a old thread I read on this forum. I don't think both of them can sustain well. Yes, they can add heavy attack in their rotation or prepare 1/2 mag regen jewelry. But then this is where the gap begins.

Are we going to ignore that right at the beginning of the OP this is addressed, and a link is provided to a thread with extensive solo DPS testing?

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

Yes, I did read the whole thread, included the one you mentioned. So, what's the misinformation here? Did dummer and khajiit sustain magickally solved? Did the tests here don't skewed at all? Like the altmer and dummer comparison?

Yea, both khajiit and dummer can deal really good damage, but like I said their sustain are awful. I didn't deny they're capable DD, but once again, their both sustain are bad as long as you don't have any good healer that can support your resource and even with a healer support your resource, in the long run, it'll still run out of resource sooner than the others magicka races. So, did you just cherry picking and thinking about a argument in your head and then think "Yea, this dude doesn't know they can be good DD". To be fair, all my stamina DDs are khajiit, I'm not even care about meta, but I still think khajiit and dummer deserved a bit more sustain love.

So if you read the OP saying that the tests shown in this thread only apply to fully group buffed DPS, and that there's another thread that analyzes it based on solo-only DPS (which is where sustain issues come into play), then why would you say this:

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group?

Because clearly it's not being ignored. The tests here are one piece of the full story. The tests in the thread linked in the OP are another piece of the story. That thread is specifically the piece of the story that you're complaining is being ignored... but it's not being ignored. It's being pointed out and highlighted as being another piece of the story in the very first post in this thread.

So, can you tell me what's the "misinformation" OP talking about? Dummer and Khajiit are still pretty screwed cause of their sustain. Am I wrong? Ignored something that not many people can even get an dedicated healer is really hard to understand? For real?

Edit: I really think you're totally misunderstood what I'm trying to say. There's no doubt Khajiit and Dummer will be good in a pre-made trials/dungeon group. But in lot of cases like I said before, in many pugs groups there won't be many dedicated healers, one of the things you can do is make your jewelry with mag regen, heavy attack more in rotations..e.t.c. while the others magicka races can use full spell damage or less heavy attacks.

You know that I'm literally not saying anything about what races are good at what right? I've said nothing about what situations Khajiit and Dunmer are and aren't good in.

You complained that the thread was ignoring that these tests are only representative of a fully buffed & supported group situation, and that sustain is more of a factor in solo situations.

I pointed out that the thread was ignoring no such thing, because at the beginning of the very first post it was explicitly highlighted that these are only representative of fully group-buffed situations, and a link was provided to a thread that examines it from a solo self-buffed perspective.

So yes, you're wrong. The thread doesn't ignore that as you claim it does. This thread is explicitly about a comparison of group-buffed DPS, and a link is provided to a thread that is explicitly about a comparison of self-buffed DPS. Obviously you need to look at both types of comparisons to get a full picture.

*Sigh* you just don't understand, do you? Thought it's because I'm not native Engligh speaker, so you might misunderstand. I think I'm really specific about the situation that this post only point out what's the best dps in the fully support situation and the other thread only tells the self-buff without any actual fight pressure. Like I said before, I'll said it again, in a pugs groups if both khajiit and dummer (just let you know, I know nord and imperial doesn't get any sustain love either, but they're not really DD favor anyway) will struggle a bit more due to their sustain in a real fight (without a dedicated/decent healer).

Both threads are great, but they're really in a comfortable situations here. Not to mention some other people here had point it out that altmer should be slughtly higher than dummer.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is they need sustain love. And if we're going to talk about *big picture*, then maybe we should start talking about both PvP and PvE then. The no-cp experience is gonna be painful for them.

What_In_Tarnation · January 2019

BuddyAces wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Based on the sample size the differences are statistically insignificant. A larger sample would be required to be able to say for certain that the races tested are all capable of the same DPS output under full raid support conditions (and with a larger sample I'd expect to see less variation between the averages), but the parses provided certainly seem to support that conclusion.

Commancho wrote: »

That's mag DD comparision. What about healers, tanks, gankers etc?
Do you assume that everyone is playing magicka DD class?

This makes no sense. You can only do this kind of comparison with PVE DPS (and most likely the reason this is only comparing magicka DPS is just because the PTS hasn't been up for very long yet and he hasn't had a chance to do proper stamina DPS testing yet). There's no equivalent way to test and compare healers, tanks, or anything PVP because there are too many variables that cannot be removed from the equation.

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group? Like how many people here can get you a babysitter and dishing orbs, shards, major encourage and maybe even IA lightning staff heavy attack non-stop?

Tbh, both sustain of dark elf and khajiit will be really awful if your healers aren't dedicated enough. And judging by how many healers actually think they don't need to provide elemental drain and orbs/shards here from a old thread I read on this forum. I don't think both of them can sustain well. Yes, they can add heavy attack in their rotation or prepare 1/2 mag regen jewelry. But then this is where the gap begins.

Are we going to ignore that right at the beginning of the OP this is addressed, and a link is provided to a thread with extensive solo DPS testing?

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

Yes, I did read the whole thread, included the one you mentioned. So, what's the misinformation here? Did dummer and khajiit sustain magickally solved? Did the tests here don't skewed at all? Like the altmer and dummer comparison?

Yea, both khajiit and dummer can deal really good damage, but like I said their sustain are awful. I didn't deny they're capable DD, but once again, their both sustain are bad as long as you don't have any good healer that can support your resource and even with a healer support your resource, in the long run, it'll still run out of resource sooner than the others magicka races. So, did you just cherry picking and thinking about a argument in your head and then think "Yea, this dude doesn't know they can be good DD". To be fair, all my stamina DDs are khajiit, I'm not even care about meta, but I still think khajiit and dummer deserved a bit more sustain love.

So if you read the OP saying that the tests shown in this thread only apply to fully group buffed DPS, and that there's another thread that analyzes it based on solo-only DPS (which is where sustain issues come into play), then why would you say this:

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group?

Because clearly it's not being ignored. The tests here are one piece of the full story. The tests in the thread linked in the OP are another piece of the story. That thread is specifically the piece of the story that you're complaining is being ignored... but it's not being ignored. It's being pointed out and highlighted as being another piece of the story in the very first post in this thread.

So, can you tell me what's the "misinformation" OP talking about? Dummer and Khajiit are still pretty screwed cause of their sustain. Am I wrong? Ignored something that not many people can even get an dedicated healer is really hard to understand? For real?

Edit: I really think you're totally misunderstood what I'm trying to say. There's no doubt Khajiit and Dummer will be good in a pre-made trials/dungeon group. But in lot of cases like I said before, in many pugs groups there won't be many dedicated healers, one of the things you can do is make your jewelry with mag regen, heavy attack more in rotations..e.t.c. while the others magicka races can use full spell damage or less heavy attacks.

What I'm getting out of this: they are all close and unless you are doing leader board/score runs, it will not matter.

Also, if you're worried how this will affect your abilities in a pug...well that's pug life. Too many variables to say what's going to work best because pug groups are going to be different from one to the next.

Play what ya want

I already play what I want, sort of.. One of my DD is breton before I knew they're going to buff their passives. Thanks for your concern.

Seraphayel · January 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

There isn't much to get from this thread yet.

They'll need to do many dozen's of solo tests on each race on equal ground before anyone can see the true numbers compared together. In the end it doesn't matter because even if the dps is even 1%, 2% or 10% in either direction, it will still be an imbalanced change. NO race should be over another, not even by the slightest percent%

Impossible to do unless you restructure passives to be cosmetic only or the same for every race. No MMO in history has been THAT balanced.

The funny thing is the races right now are much more apart than they might be after the changes and yet there is complaining that not every race is identical (=balanced) in the end.

If they aren't completely balanced after the change there is no point in changing them, because then they'll need to be changed again.

Those parses are flawed parses and there aren't enough of them to draw a real conclusion. Once again, you're coming with assumptions and misinformation instead of waiting for facts.

Do you even read what you post?

So instead of closing the gap and bringing races closer together they should do nothing and keep the huge differences? What logic is that? There was NEVER the need to make every race equal, just to bring them closer together - something ZOS surprisingly seemed to have achieved.

Those parses might be flawed but they're still a lot more relatable than the whole complaining WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE. At least we got some flawed parses, you complainers got nothing but feels to "verify" your complaints.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2019

YOOOOO!!! I CAN ROCK BRETON AND MY SUSTAIN AND DPS WILL BE AS GOOD

Seraphayel · January 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

There isn't much to get from this thread yet.

They'll need to do many dozen's of solo tests on each race on equal ground before anyone can see the true numbers compared together. In the end it doesn't matter because even if the dps is even 1%, 2% or 10% in either direction, it will still be an imbalanced change. NO race should be over another, not even by the slightest percent%

Impossible to do unless you restructure passives to be cosmetic only or the same for every race. No MMO in history has been THAT balanced.

The funny thing is the races right now are much more apart than they might be after the changes and yet there is complaining that not every race is identical (=balanced) in the end.

The funny thing happened in 2014, when people KNEW that they would roll an Altmer to be the best at Magicka DPS or a Kajiit / Wood Elf to be best at their competences.

The less funny thing is when ZOS changes which does best what. Does not matter if they are closer, they are disregarding lore (Dunmer less capable at magicka than felines??? Rly?) and race perks (fire affinity race somehow becomes just a turd).

ZOS is not disregarding lore. Khajiit are as capable of being Sorcerers as Dunmer. There's no lore that would indicate something different.

Btw 2014 Templar was the only real healing class and players chose Templar to be the (best) healer. Fast forward 5 years and we have 5 classes that are very well capable of healing. Guess what, things change within 5 years, it's naive to assume something is forever in an ONLINE game.

Haquor · January 2019

So the altmer average was less than 200dps below dunmer (which had significant variety in its parses) and people are still mind blow by it all.

Its human error and crit chance guys. Thats all it is. Stop flipping out over maths.

Half of you are still going to take 8 minutes to kill bloodspawn. Its ok.

Onefrkncrzypope · January 2019

Kitty cat will be bis my dudes. If you read the description he goes into why. But yes all mag(and hybrid?) Races are very close on a solo parse. Group DPS will be very different. Kitty will perform better there after Altmer then dunmer then Breton probably.

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2019

Going to flat stat vs % is good when trying to balance out a class or a race in a game when there are passive that can provide an advantage over one class/race.

This update shows just how balance the change is. As for additional parsing, it won't really say which one is better or not; overall each are around 60K DPS and under a 5% variance. I call that good fixing by the devs.

The question now is how do the rest of the races compare to these races as a magika DPS, how does all races perform for the other class magika builds, and how does all races perform for stamina build for each class.

These are things that need to be tested to determine how balance or imbalance the change to races are.

I'm curious if Redguard is still the best stamina race or has this update made it so that all races can be viable as a stamina or magika DPS.

ZonasArch · January 2019

robpr wrote: »

Everybody cares only about Templars and NBs. Where is Sorc and DK parses?

#AllClassesMatter

The irony is huge in your text... Hashtag hurr Durr all classes matter, but you forgot wardens! 🤣🤣🤣🤣😋

ZonasArch · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

false information.

Liko's parses have a huge discrepancy in spell strat uptimes, among other stuff.

They have but it won't matter in the end because those differences become insignificant when you're doing multiple tests in a row.

I don't know why everybody wants to make the discrepancy bigger than it really is.

Because they wanna keep prophetisizing Doomsday. Only that. Negativity attracts attention here.

StarOfElyon · January 2019

I'm guessing Dunmer and Kajiit will be BIS for stam and mag Necromancers.

Aurielle · January 2019

This is a very small sample based on BIS trial sets that are universally good for PVE magicka players. People with off-meta builds built around previous racial perks (e.g. stacking fire damage, health regen, etc.), especially in PVP, will likely see a reduction in power. I would test it, but I’m on console and don’t have PTS access. I don’t care about my characters’ performance in PVE relative to other classes after the update; I care about what a few of my PVP characters will be losing between updates after previously key race-defining attributes (e.g. dunmers’ boost to fire damage) are completely taken away or otherwise nerfed.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · January 2019

I'm more concerned about not-so-optimal conditions myself. Like those cr@ppy pug groups where the healer sometimes runs shards and might have some uptime but not 100% on weakness to elements.

Frankly, I'm not casual but I'm not hardcore either. I don't think I'll ever be in a trials group that's totally optimized. I'll usually have breach up, but anything beyond that is a maybe haha.

When you stop considering optimal conditions, things like racial sustain and racial crit chance may start to matter more.

I'd love to see the same tests done but with little to no raid support.

D0PAMINE · January 2019

So what it comes down too is that some players are going to do better on one race and others will benefit on a different one yes?

AerionMagnus · January 2019

@nsmurfer Heya, awesome stuff. I was wondering, however, would it be possible to do a test on an Imperial Magicka Sorcerer, by any chance? Thanks.

D0PAMINE · January 2019

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

YOOOOO!!! I CAN ROCK BRETON AND MY SUSTAIN AND DPS WILL BE AS GOOD

I went on the PTS last night on my breton magplar and I can just spam jesus beam the entire dungeon if I feel like without running out of magicka or health. That 7% cost reduc is quite good, like the old magician CP node.

stileanima · January 2019

@Liko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lBO23Dh23I

susmitds · January 2019

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score#latest

Here you guys go.

Fallewarrior · January 2019

Oopsie

OtarTheMad · January 2019

This is great information, thank you. It goes to show that everyone was freaking out before testing anything. Further testing probably is required by so far things look fairly balanced

zaria · January 2019

Haquor wrote: »

So the altmer average was less than 200dps below dunmer (which had significant variety in its parses) and people are still mind blow by it all.

Its human error and crit chance guys. Thats all it is. Stop flipping out over maths.

Half of you are still going to take 8 minutes to kill bloodspawn. Its ok.

This, discussion has become politic.
Races is so close that dummy parses error margin is higher.
Now add that Khajiit and Dunmer need more resources. Stamina builds need to stay close but also has more resitance.
And lastly player skill is 80%.
Has not soloed bloodspawn but remember that boss was hard back in the days then keeper Indril was hard.
Now then leveling an tank I ran into an group wiping on keeper Indril in normal, yes it require some skill and no AoE

molecule · January 2019

Yeh but, i'm 0.67% behind Altmer on my parses.

I'm gonna quit and take all my toys with me.

Worlds a joke..............stomps out of room

JumpmanLane · January 2019

750 divided by 10.5 is like 71 point something in terms of effective spell power...it’s not so very much.

On a MagDk in PvP I’ll stick with dunmer. DW (5% total damage) Extra stam for an extra block cast/ break free in a pinch. Plus a little bit extra damage on light attacks weaved in with every lash (to proc glyphs and build ulti). Loving the new passives.

A MagDk does more than run a damage rotation on people in Cyrodill. You block don’t you lol.

InvictusApollo · January 2019

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

There is no sense at all that dumner outdps Altmers, Altmers have more max magicka and better sustain. These are different attempts at dps parses could be a perfect parse or could have some slight mistakes.

It needs to be done over a sample of at least 10 parses each and the average is compared

Do it. Just do it! For the science!

Edit: To all who wonder why Dunmer has better results than Altmer - please look at skill bar. Can you see that? There is Rearming Trap slotted. Do you know what affects it's damage? Yes! Stamina and weapon damage that Dunmer have bonuses to. This and some randomness in parses are all reasons why there are differences. Also look at critical ratings. Dunmer in this parse had a little more critical hits. The poin t is that if you are good, then all four of these races are meta for pve magblades.

Vahrokh · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

There isn't much to get from this thread yet.

They'll need to do many dozen's of solo tests on each race on equal ground before anyone can see the true numbers compared together. In the end it doesn't matter because even if the dps is even 1%, 2% or 10% in either direction, it will still be an imbalanced change. NO race should be over another, not even by the slightest percent%

Impossible to do unless you restructure passives to be cosmetic only or the same for every race. No MMO in history has been THAT balanced.

The funny thing is the races right now are much more apart than they might be after the changes and yet there is complaining that not every race is identical (=balanced) in the end.

The funny thing happened in 2014, when people KNEW that they would roll an Altmer to be the best at Magicka DPS or a Kajiit / Wood Elf to be best at their competences.

The less funny thing is when ZOS changes which does best what. Does not matter if they are closer, they are disregarding lore (Dunmer less capable at magicka than felines??? Rly?) and race perks (fire affinity race somehow becomes just a turd).

ZOS is not disregarding lore. Khajiit are as capable of being Sorcerers as Dunmer. There's no lore that would indicate something different.

Btw 2014 Templar was the only real healing class and players chose Templar to be the (best) healer. Fast forward 5 years and we have 5 classes that are very well capable of healing. Guess what, things change within 5 years, it's naive to assume something is forever in an ONLINE game.

Not at all. In 2014 I was trial healer including, my friends had NB and Templar main tanks and NB healer.

These days? GL with your magsorc "main trial healer" or your Templar main tank.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2019

Feanor wrote: »

The funny thing is the Average Joe - who can't even reach 25k DPS, let alone 60k - is completely losing his mind over the changes when all these tests show the races come very close.

The average joe wouldnt be losing their minds if people werent intentionally fear-mongering as they always do whenever changes are announced. Especially since the average joe has no clue how any of these changes will play out.

russelmmendoza · January 2019

This is why eso community rocks.
Sure all most all are ass hats.
But this guys makes up for that
I think.

People going out of their way to make the game great.
People doing things for the whole community.

I just wish I can give an awesome and insightful at the same time.

Iskiab · January 2019

Yes, please if you have time parse nord out. It can’t be only me who wants to try a nord magblade or healer in pvp.

firedrgn · January 2019

People do your own fn parses if u dont like someone else numbers. My guess is you cant do over 25k anyways and you will never see the dang differance.

Sit back down and stop bitchen

ccfeeling · January 2019

We cannot analyse the result base on LIKO parsers , he is not human .