So Liko did a complete Magicka DPS racial test. Check results here and stop spreading misinformation

Seraphayel

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

The parses have already been shown to be skewed, and there are way too little of the parses here to determine anything. The characters must be on equal footing with dozens of before after parses of every single race. This is just spreading misinformation. SO nothing changed. There is still no concrete set of numbers to go on.

And still the complaining continues, based on nothing but "feels"...

Wildberryjack

CleymenZero wrote: »

Is is there a reason why Khajit was on top on magplar and bottom on mabNB?

I'm hardly an expert but it seems logical that the answer to your question is because some class abilities synergize better with one race over another.

Azyle1

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

This is one of those areas where ZoS should swoop in, break protocol, and show some internal data.

ZoS can produce a perfect parse. They can remove crit from the equation entirely. They can guarantee perfect proc uptime, enchant uptime, perfect weaves, and perfect cancels.

It can do this programmatically, one time, once per race, all on common builds. This would guarantee an even baseline with zero RNG for comparison. Eliminate every human factor, every RNG factor, and then show the result spread.

I realize that @Liko is probably the closest to a perfectly executed parse that anyone could hope for, but there are still other factors.

While it's appreciated, it honestly shouldn't have to be done by any player to see the baseline results across any race, any build, any class.

The perfect numbers (you could factor in crit after the fact, knowing that the highest DPS would be 100% crits, so adding that crit damage increase to the base) would be the best attainable.

The (optional) follow up would then be the Liko's, followed by the average, followed by the newer players, to see how the various tiers are really affected by these changes and what the DPS spread for race/class is ideally, and in practice, in an assortment of hands.

While the top end numbers being close sounds promising, anyone not top end is going to fumble, make some mistakes, and have different results, both in final parse and the regen required to obtain it.

It needs to be shown on various setups, not just BiS gear in the hands of BiS players to really show what's going on.

Kudos to both @Liko and @susmitds for the testing they honestly shouldn't have had to even do.

Start with the ideal scenario, adjust, see how it works out in actual gameplay, adjust again.

Bro.... it's just a game.

Arrodisia

Seraphayel wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

The parses have already been shown to be skewed, and there are way too little of the parses here to determine anything. The characters must be on equal footing with dozens of before after parses of every single race. This is just spreading misinformation. SO nothing changed. There is still no concrete set of numbers to go on.

And still the complaining continues, based on nothing but "feels"...

based on ZOS'S info supplied and not skewed parses which you knew already had been challenged. There is a reason why you lose most arguments in the forums. YOu don't know all of the issues before you comment, you pick parts of people's statements and manipulate what's said to suit you, you asssume things then argue with yourself about them, try to bully people to think what you think,try to make them believe they have no reason to complain..........................

You're more bothered about the topics than ZOS is.

Objectivity is very helpful when there are 2 sides to a subject.

coj901

Y'all folk need to go outside. The point is most races are close now. Good job by zos.

Merlin13KAGL

Feanor wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

It’s a game still. ZOS doesn’t attempt a flight to Mars. People are really unreasonable about all of this.

@Feanor , it would primarily be an internal tool. While it would take a bit to develop in the first place, the ROI would be well worth it. it would be usable for every patch from here to eternity.

Enter a race/class/build. Put in a 'standard' rotation, press a key and watch it go.

I'm simply of the mindset that no one should ever have as good of a dataset as ZoS has at their fingertips on any given day. This goes for the ideal scenario, and real player scenarios.

CleymenZero

Seraphayel wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

It obviously happens in parse, it's all statistics and timing of abilities but he compared an average one with a very good one.

I'm not saying he crit-farmed his parse but they are not the same "context" if you will. If you truly believe that "it happens in a parse" why bother making multiple tries to get a bigger sample instead of just using the first one you get? It happens in a parse right? Not trying to demean you, just saying that the argument is not valid.

That's what he did. I am pretty sure even if he does 100 parses the average result will still be nearly identical. There's such a fuzz about nothing honestly, neither race has been destroyed nor overbuffed. They're all closer together now. In a 1%/2%-difference scenario it doesn't matter at all.

We're both sure in one case that there is a difference (especially in raid) and in the other case that it is the same. Raw stats though lean towards my take.

IN HIS PARSES, it shows Dunmer max mag as 40.45k and Altmer as 41.36. That's 910 extra magicka which translates to roughly 87 more spell damage. That's a 2% extra spell damage. It is already a difference without considering sustain which would help in fights like vCR and vAS. That in itself would not may not justify a race change for the average Joe but for someone who is min/maxing and had a Dunmer NB, it's 2%.

For my self-buffed parses sitting at 48-49k (I'm not that good), that would be a difference of almost 1k before considering sustain and I'm not using raid buffs like he is. Without warhorn, it would be 1.2k on a 60k parse and in a raid, I'm sure the Khajit would actually easily win. They have less max mag and spell damage than Altmer and Dunmer but a bit more recovery than Dunmer and with that crit rate, major force (which adds 25% damage to your crits) would shoot the Khajit forward.

Remember that about 72% of the damage comes from crit and the parses, although very appreciated, show relatively high crits on Dunmer vs average compared to the Khajit parse shown.

In the end, you're saying they are the same based on trust that Liko did 100 parses and I'm saying that raw data contradicts that and that with a very important raid ability (Warhorn), the differences would be amplified.

Bouldercleave

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Where's argonian? No data is relevant until argonians are included!

#ArgonianLivesMatter

Unfortunately the training dummy won when parsed against the Argonian....

CleymenZero

I also want to insist that I think Liko is probably the best DPS in the game and I'm not bashing his parses but the samples are a bit skewed. He is probably busy as hell figuring things out and we should appreciate his work.

Just look at the data keeping in mind passives (raw stats) and discuss it in a civil manner.

Merlin13KAGL

Azyle1 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

This is one of those areas where ZoS should swoop in, break protocol, and show some internal data.

ZoS can produce a perfect parse. They can remove crit from the equation entirely. They can guarantee perfect proc uptime, enchant uptime, perfect weaves, and perfect cancels.

It can do this programmatically, one time, once per race, all on common builds. This would guarantee an even baseline with zero RNG for comparison. Eliminate every human factor, every RNG factor, and then show the result spread.

I realize that @Liko is probably the closest to a perfectly executed parse that anyone could hope for, but there are still other factors.

While it's appreciated, it honestly shouldn't have to be done by any player to see the baseline results across any race, any build, any class.

The perfect numbers (you could factor in crit after the fact, knowing that the highest DPS would be 100% crits, so adding that crit damage increase to the base) would be the best attainable.

The (optional) follow up would then be the Liko's, followed by the average, followed by the newer players, to see how the various tiers are really affected by these changes and what the DPS spread for race/class is ideally, and in practice, in an assortment of hands.

While the top end numbers being close sounds promising, anyone not top end is going to fumble, make some mistakes, and have different results, both in final parse and the regen required to obtain it.

It needs to be shown on various setups, not just BiS gear in the hands of BiS players to really show what's going on.

Kudos to both @Liko and @susmitds for the testing they honestly shouldn't have had to even do.

Start with the ideal scenario, adjust, see how it works out in actual gameplay, adjust again.

Bro.... it's just a game.

Right. You can also change a tire with a hammer, but the right tool quickly makes it worth the time.

In description, I'm sure this appears much more daunting than it actually would be, and the time saved in seeing balance issues and OP items/skills/race/whatever would make it well worth having in the toolbox.

Just my opinion, but it's how I'd do it.

Bouldercleave

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

It’s a game still. ZOS doesn’t attempt a flight to Mars. People are really unreasonable about all of this.

@Feanor , it would primarily be an internal tool. While it would take a bit to develop in the first place, the ROI would be well worth it. it would be usable for every patch from here to eternity.

Enter a race/class/build. Put in a 'standard' rotation, press a key and watch it go.

I'm simply of the mindset that no one should ever have as good of a dataset as ZoS has at their fingertips on any given day. This goes for the ideal scenario, and real player scenarios.

You act as if you know for a fact that they don't already do just that. It's logically possible that they don't wish to share their data with the entire planet (including the competition). You are NOT entitled to every scrap of data in the game design - that is just a foolish, entitled thing to wish for. If you want to know that kind of sensitive data, get a job at ZoS..

I promise you, they did not just throw a dart at the wall and make changes wherever the dart stuck. Just because you can't see the logic and can't see the "perfect data set" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Seraphayel

Oh man I just hope someone does all the tests the min-maxers are waiting for with the same result that no race is being destroyed and that the differences are totally negligible. Pretty sure they'll find another argument why the racial changes are so drastic and massive that it almost breaks the game. Funny enough that almost nobody cared about it before ZOS came up with the changes and where things were far more "drastic" then they will be after the update...

CleymenZero

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

It’s a game still. ZOS doesn’t attempt a flight to Mars. People are really unreasonable about all of this.

@Feanor , it would primarily be an internal tool. While it would take a bit to develop in the first place, the ROI would be well worth it. it would be usable for every patch from here to eternity.

Enter a race/class/build. Put in a 'standard' rotation, press a key and watch it go.

I'm simply of the mindset that no one should ever have as good of a dataset as ZoS has at their fingertips on any given day. This goes for the ideal scenario, and real player scenarios.

I have been convinced for a while that they always had such a tool. It's a matter of making a mathematical model and inserting variables. They know the DPS ceiling, they know the results and that's what I think allowed them to make them so close this time but as a player who does end game content, it is annoying that I chose races based on numbers and that they change the game in a way that has me spending money. An extra expense created by the developer (monetizing the meta?).

If I had to grind a new skill line, farm a new set or anything that doesn't involve real-world money, I would not say a word. I would not be on the forums probably but this is a potential expense created by the developer changing the meta; ever so slightly, but it is still a change. I already pay for each chapter, buy special motifs in the Crown when available, buy Crown Store skins, costumes and polymorphs if they interest me. I subscribe to ESO+. I'm already giving them more than 200$ a year, I think they should have a better mechanism than a simple race change token.

I don't feel entitled to these tokens or to a discount, I think that in the business relationship that I have as a customer and them as a service provider, that I do my part and it's a bad move if changes aren't made to compensate. I would even say that I'm fine with them significantly discounting the tokens (1k Crowns instead of 3k a piece), I just don't think it's appropriate if changes are made that impact race choice and that we have to pay for race choices because of that.

Wrong or not, exagerated or not, that's my opinion based on information available.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

As others have said, there is just no mathematical way that dunmer should be ahead of altmer. That said, we all understand that unless tests like this are done a ton of times, results like this can happen. I will say its nice that if you at least pic a race that passes the smell test for your build, you wont be at a wild disadvantage.

Merlin13KAGL

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

It’s a game still. ZOS doesn’t attempt a flight to Mars. People are really unreasonable about all of this.

@Feanor , it would primarily be an internal tool. While it would take a bit to develop in the first place, the ROI would be well worth it. it would be usable for every patch from here to eternity.

Enter a race/class/build. Put in a 'standard' rotation, press a key and watch it go.

I'm simply of the mindset that no one should ever have as good of a dataset as ZoS has at their fingertips on any given day. This goes for the ideal scenario, and real player scenarios.

You act as if you know for a fact that they don't already do just that. It's logically possible that they don't wish to share their data with the entire planet (including the competition). You are NOT entitled to every scrap of data in the game design - that is just a foolish, entitled thing to wish for. If you want to know that kind of sensitive data, get a job at ZoS..

I promise you, they did not just throw a dart at the wall and make changes wherever the dart stuck. Just because you can't see the logic and can't see the "perfect data set" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Enlighten me how showing a final DPS parse (the very thing the chat window shows you once the dummy dies) would somehow give an edge to the 'competition?'

I don't know how they compare, but I'm guessing much of it isn't simulation based, but rather involving certain goals and standardizations, followed by testing by the internal @ZOS_Gilliam 's and such.

Sometimes those intents work out. Sometimes they don't.

You equally can't presume to know their methods or lack thereof unless you get a job at ZoS.

There is no 'sensitive' data to be had in a table showing final parse results in comparison, or even the statement that high/mid/low end results were within X% of each other.

My ultimate point being, they already have more data than anyone on the subject. Seems a shame if that data is not being put to full use.

EDIT: The fastest way to quell the masses concerned that the King is dead is to have the King address his subjects.

Nestor

With every Racial or Class or Skill or Gear update, we have people running around saying the sky is falling, when it is not. ZOS is really good at balancing everything, as they should be as they have the numbers for everything that we players don't and wont ever have.

CleymenZero

Nestor wrote: »

With every Racial or Class or Skill or Gear update, we have people running around saying the sky is falling, when it is not. ZOS is really good at balancing everything, as they should be as they have the numbers for everything that we players don't and wont ever have.

I'm not of those who think the sky is falling, I just think that 2% difference on a 50k parse is 1k and that is significant to me. I'm of those who think that I shouldn't pay because they suddenly decide they want to changes passives and changing that can only be done with real world money.

Also, I'm repeating it again: if Khajit has a similar or same parse without Warhorn, just what and see what will happen in a raid with a good group. So if you make Khajit DPS OP better and I have a Dunmer magNB, you just made me have to spend money and that's what I don't accept.

In the end, there's a difference between making me buy a chapter with content and making me grind a new skill line vs making me buy tokens to react to changes the developer made. Making me pay for new content is ok, monetizing the meta isn't. You can't blame people for chasing the meta, it is expected when doing end game content.

Again, I hope I'm wrong.

Merlin13KAGL

Nestor wrote: »

With every Racial or Class or Skill or Gear update, we have people running around saying the sky is falling, when it is not. ZOS is really good at balancing everything, as they should be as they have the numbers for everything that we players don't and wont ever have.

@Nestor Because it's what people do.

• ZoS changes something.
• People freak out.
• Excellent players show actual test results showing the panic is unwarranted.
• People point out discrepancies in the results because RNG and the excellent testers are still human.
• People freak out again.

No matter how many proofs would be provided, some will insist the sky is falling until they see it hasn't. Some more will insist that it has or will, even still.

fioskal

People will freak until the changes are on the live server, then they'll adjust and move on.

That said, there are still weeks left of the PTS and much more testing to be done and potential changes in the pipeline.

zaria

Wildberryjack wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Is is there a reason why Khajit was on top on magplar and bottom on mabNB?

I'm hardly an expert but it seems logical that the answer to your question is because some class abilities synergize better with one race over another.

This, its also why Khajiit does better for magic build than stamina.
Also because its an significant error factor, first is parse errors, look at the results parses is up and down 2-3k. And even if an scripted perfect parse you have crit.

Note that Kajiit and more so Dunmer will benefit from an organized group raid group with lots of resources but will struggle more solo.

Commancho

coj901 wrote: »

Y'all folk need to go outside. The point is most races are close now. Good job by zos.

I wish to have a magic wand to turn your Sorcerer into Wood Elf and your Stamblade into Imperial .
You would definetly see how close they really are... Nooooot!!!

CleymenZero

fioskal wrote: »

People will freak until the changes are on the live server, then they'll adjust and move on.

That said, there are still weeks left of the PTS and much more testing to be done and potential changes in the pipeline.

People who freak out serve the community and the reaction part of the community is having will only make them adjust it before it goes live.

Remember that cast time on shields? It never went live but now instead of a cast time, we get one that 40-50% of your max health and a CP line that is completely useless. Not a big deal honestly, I didn't freak out but they backtracked because of the community.

In my case, I don't want them to backtrack and welcome the changes. I just to want the changes to not cost me more than play-time if they are significant or the purchase of Elweyr. Hey, why don't they add 3-4 race-change tokens with the purchase or pre-purchase of the new chapter? Now THAT would crank up sales.

Bouldercleave

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

It’s a game still. ZOS doesn’t attempt a flight to Mars. People are really unreasonable about all of this.

@Feanor , it would primarily be an internal tool. While it would take a bit to develop in the first place, the ROI would be well worth it. it would be usable for every patch from here to eternity.

Enter a race/class/build. Put in a 'standard' rotation, press a key and watch it go.

I'm simply of the mindset that no one should ever have as good of a dataset as ZoS has at their fingertips on any given day. This goes for the ideal scenario, and real player scenarios.

You act as if you know for a fact that they don't already do just that. It's logically possible that they don't wish to share their data with the entire planet (including the competition). You are NOT entitled to every scrap of data in the game design - that is just a foolish, entitled thing to wish for. If you want to know that kind of sensitive data, get a job at ZoS..

I promise you, they did not just throw a dart at the wall and make changes wherever the dart stuck. Just because you can't see the logic and can't see the "perfect data set" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Enlighten me how showing a final DPS parse (the very thing the chat window shows you once the dummy dies) would somehow give an edge to the 'competition?'



You equally can't presume to know their methods or lack thereof unless you get a job at ZoS.


My ultimate point being, they already have more data than anyone on the subject. Seems a shame if that data is not being put to full use.

EDIT: The fastest way to quell the masses concerned that the King is dead is to have the King address his subjects.

I don't work for them, but I do have a degree in Business Management and I can tell you - you will never get them to disclose the type of data that you are asking for. Not as much for the data itself, but that leads to HOW the data was obtained, and the methods used in the programming to achieve the data set. THAT is what is sensitive. They will not be disclosing that.

Again, you are not entitled to that information. You are merely a consumer of their product. What gives you the right to even ask for their methods?

mxxo

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwAsgDwnALw

GUESS, who is on top.

Dunmer.... followed by Breton, Khajiit and Altmer.

Averages!


This is surprisingly in line with the statistical tests @susmitds has made.

As so many people wanted data by a well known player , well here's one for you. Go ahead and stop the misinformation.

Yes, pls stop misinformation, this doesnt even correlate with the new passives.

Kikke

come on guys, look at the buff uptimes...

Dunmer's Spell strat = 92%
Breton's Spell strat = 89%
Khajit's Spell strat = 90%
Altmer's Spell strat = 86%

So.. Dunmer and altmers are 6% apart, enough that you will see these differences in DPS. Nothing to do with Race.

A Pure Race race *lol* Altmers would come out first. Should really not use proc sets to figure out the new BiS Race...
But it seems, we will be more or less the same..

Also, why is every race magicka dps test on PTS on NBs? Want to see other classes as well.

Merlin13KAGL

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

It’s a game still. ZOS doesn’t attempt a flight to Mars. People are really unreasonable about all of this.

@Feanor , it would primarily be an internal tool. While it would take a bit to develop in the first place, the ROI would be well worth it. it would be usable for every patch from here to eternity.

Enter a race/class/build. Put in a 'standard' rotation, press a key and watch it go.

I'm simply of the mindset that no one should ever have as good of a dataset as ZoS has at their fingertips on any given day. This goes for the ideal scenario, and real player scenarios.

You act as if you know for a fact that they don't already do just that. It's logically possible that they don't wish to share their data with the entire planet (including the competition). You are NOT entitled to every scrap of data in the game design - that is just a foolish, entitled thing to wish for. If you want to know that kind of sensitive data, get a job at ZoS..

I promise you, they did not just throw a dart at the wall and make changes wherever the dart stuck. Just because you can't see the logic and can't see the "perfect data set" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Enlighten me how showing a final DPS parse (the very thing the chat window shows you once the dummy dies) would somehow give an edge to the 'competition?'



You equally can't presume to know their methods or lack thereof unless you get a job at ZoS.


My ultimate point being, they already have more data than anyone on the subject. Seems a shame if that data is not being put to full use.

EDIT: The fastest way to quell the masses concerned that the King is dead is to have the King address his subjects.

I don't work for them, but I do have a degree in Business Management and I can tell you - you will never get them to disclose the type of data that you are asking for. Not as much for the data itself, but that leads to HOW the data was obtained, and the methods used in the programming to achieve the data set. THAT is what is sensitive. They will not be disclosing that.

Again, you are not entitled to that information. You are merely a consumer of their product. What gives you the right to even ask for their methods?

Congratulations. I Engineer things for a living. Data can usually tell you almost everything you need to know.

At no point has it been asked for the method or the data involved, only the end result. There was a method proposed. There was never a request, nor expectation of the method to be disclosed.

I do not feel entitled to, nor have I claimed the right to that which I've never asked for.

The only data I'm suggesting is the final number on a DPS parse, not unlike what Liko has done, simply in a more controlled environment.

EDIT: I'll even take it a step further. They could pick a baseline, call it a '1,' and then show the race variances based on that, without ever actually disclosing the actual high end DPS numbers.

ZonasArch

Kikke wrote: »

come on guys, look at the buff uptimes...

Dunmer's Spell strat = 92%
Breton's Spell strat = 89%
Khajit's Spell strat = 90%
Altmer's Spell strat = 86%

So.. Dunmer and altmers are 6% apart, enough that you will see these differences in DPS. Nothing to do with Race.

A Pure Race race *lol* Altmers would come out first. Should really not use proc sets to figure out the new BiS Race...
But it seems, we will be more or less the same..

Also, why is every race magicka dps test on PTS on NBs? Want to see other classes as well.

Test on NB because that's the OP one right now. The rest isn't relevant at all for the people on leaderboard runs, same people that would actually feel the changes in races, not most of these ones in the forums... Most here, even the good ones, will still not be hurt by anything, as previously stated by many.

robpr

Everybody cares only about Templars and NBs. Where is Sorc and DK parses?

#AllClassesMatter

UrQuan

Based on the sample size the differences are statistically insignificant. A larger sample would be required to be able to say for certain that the races tested are all capable of the same DPS output under full raid support conditions (and with a larger sample I'd expect to see less variation between the averages), but the parses provided certainly seem to support that conclusion.

Commancho wrote: »

That's mag DD comparision. What about healers, tanks, gankers etc?
Do you assume that everyone is playing magicka DD class?

This makes no sense. You can only do this kind of comparison with PVE DPS (and most likely the reason this is only comparing magicka DPS is just because the PTS hasn't been up for very long yet and he hasn't had a chance to do proper stamina DPS testing yet). There's no equivalent way to test and compare healers, tanks, or anything PVP because there are too many variables that cannot be removed from the equation.

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group? Like how many people here can get you a babysitter and dishing orbs, shards, major encourage and maybe even IA lightning staff heavy attack non-stop?

Tbh, both sustain of dark elf and khajiit will be really awful if your healers aren't dedicated enough. And judging by how many healers actually think they don't need to provide elemental drain and orbs/shards here from a old thread I read on this forum. I don't think both of them can sustain well. Yes, they can add heavy attack in their rotation or prepare 1/2 mag regen jewelry. But then this is where the gap begins.

Are we going to ignore that right at the beginning of the OP this is addressed, and a link is provided to a thread with extensive solo DPS testing?

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

zaria

Commancho wrote: »

coj901 wrote: »

Y'all folk need to go outside. The point is most races are close now. Good job by zos.

I wish to have a magic wand to turn your Sorcerer into Wood Elf and your Stamblade into Imperial .
You would definetly see how close they really are... Nooooot!!!

Khajiit hides tail inside robe while looking and Dunmer shouting on soap box.
Khajiit and Dunmer envy is another tread.