false information.

Liko's parses have a huge discrepancy in spell strat uptimes, among other stuff.

Kikke wrote: »

false information.

Liko's parses have a huge discrepancy in spell strat uptimes, among other stuff.

They have but it won't matter in the end because those differences become insignificant when you're doing multiple tests in a row.

I don't know why everybody wants to make the discrepancy bigger than it really is.

All seem pretty close to me so its whatever. However I believe solo testing would have given more accurate tests. Raid parses have a lot of variables that can change the outcome even with being half a second off.

UrQuan wrote: »

Based on the sample size the differences are statistically insignificant. A larger sample would be required to be able to say for certain that the races tested are all capable of the same DPS output under full raid support conditions (and with a larger sample I'd expect to see less variation between the averages), but the parses provided certainly seem to support that conclusion.

Commancho wrote: »

That's mag DD comparision. What about healers, tanks, gankers etc?
Do you assume that everyone is playing magicka DD class?

This makes no sense. You can only do this kind of comparison with PVE DPS (and most likely the reason this is only comparing magicka DPS is just because the PTS hasn't been up for very long yet and he hasn't had a chance to do proper stamina DPS testing yet). There's no equivalent way to test and compare healers, tanks, or anything PVP because there are too many variables that cannot be removed from the equation.

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group? Like how many people here can get you a babysitter and dishing orbs, shards, major encourage and maybe even IA lightning staff heavy attack non-stop?

Tbh, both sustain of dark elf and khajiit will be really awful if your healers aren't dedicated enough. And judging by how many healers actually think they don't need to provide elemental drain and orbs/shards here from a old thread I read on this forum. I don't think both of them can sustain well. Yes, they can add heavy attack in their rotation or prepare 1/2 mag regen jewelry. But then this is where the gap begins.

Are we going to ignore that right at the beginning of the OP this is addressed, and a link is provided to a thread with extensive solo DPS testing?

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

Yes, I did read the whole thread, included the one you mentioned. So, what's the misinformation here? Did dummer and khajiit sustain magickally solved? Did the tests here don't skewed at all? Like the altmer and dummer comparison?

Yea, both khajiit and dummer can deal really good damage, but like I said their sustain are awful. I didn't deny they're capable DD, but once again, their both sustain are bad as long as you don't have any good healer that can support your resource and even with a healer support your resource, in the long run, it'll still run out of resource sooner than the others magicka races. So, did you just cherry picking and thinking about a argument in your head and then think "Yea, this dude doesn't know they can be good DD". To be fair, all my stamina DDs are khajiit, I'm not even care about meta, but I still think khajiit and dummer deserved a bit more sustain love.

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Based on the sample size the differences are statistically insignificant. A larger sample would be required to be able to say for certain that the races tested are all capable of the same DPS output under full raid support conditions (and with a larger sample I'd expect to see less variation between the averages), but the parses provided certainly seem to support that conclusion.

Commancho wrote: »

That's mag DD comparision. What about healers, tanks, gankers etc?
Do you assume that everyone is playing magicka DD class?

This makes no sense. You can only do this kind of comparison with PVE DPS (and most likely the reason this is only comparing magicka DPS is just because the PTS hasn't been up for very long yet and he hasn't had a chance to do proper stamina DPS testing yet). There's no equivalent way to test and compare healers, tanks, or anything PVP because there are too many variables that cannot be removed from the equation.

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group? Like how many people here can get you a babysitter and dishing orbs, shards, major encourage and maybe even IA lightning staff heavy attack non-stop?

Tbh, both sustain of dark elf and khajiit will be really awful if your healers aren't dedicated enough. And judging by how many healers actually think they don't need to provide elemental drain and orbs/shards here from a old thread I read on this forum. I don't think both of them can sustain well. Yes, they can add heavy attack in their rotation or prepare 1/2 mag regen jewelry. But then this is where the gap begins.

Are we going to ignore that right at the beginning of the OP this is addressed, and a link is provided to a thread with extensive solo DPS testing?

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

Yes, I did read the whole thread, included the one you mentioned. So, what's the misinformation here? Did dummer and khajiit sustain magickally solved? Did the tests here don't skewed at all? Like the altmer and dummer comparison?

Yea, both khajiit and dummer can deal really good damage, but like I said their sustain are awful. I didn't deny they're capable DD, but once again, their both sustain are bad as long as you don't have any good healer that can support your resource and even with a healer support your resource, in the long run, it'll still run out of resource sooner than the others magicka races. So, did you just cherry picking and thinking about a argument in your head and then think "Yea, this dude doesn't know they can be good DD". To be fair, all my stamina DDs are khajiit, I'm not even care about meta, but I still think khajiit and dummer deserved a bit more sustain love.

So if you read the OP saying that the tests shown in this thread only apply to fully group buffed DPS, and that there's another thread that analyzes it based on solo-only DPS (which is where sustain issues come into play), then why would you say this:

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group?

Because clearly it's not being ignored. The tests here are one piece of the full story. The tests in the thread linked in the OP are another piece of the story. That thread is specifically the piece of the story that you're complaining is being ignored... but it's not being ignored. It's being pointed out and highlighted as being another piece of the story in the very first post in this thread.

So, can you tell me what's the "misinformation" OP talking about? Dummer and Khajiit are still pretty screwed cause of their sustain. Am I wrong? Ignored something that not many people can even get an dedicated healer is really hard to understand? For real?

Edit: I really think you're totally misunderstood what I'm trying to say. There's no doubt Khajiit and Dummer will be good in a pre-made trials/dungeon group. But in lot of cases like I said before, in many pugs groups there won't be many dedicated healers, one of the things you can do is make your jewelry with mag regen, heavy attack more in rotations..e.t.c. while the others magicka races can use full spell damage or less heavy attacks.

What I'm getting out of this: they are all close and unless you are doing leader board/score runs, it will not matter.

Also, if you're worried how this will affect your abilities in a pug...well that's pug life. Too many variables to say what's going to work best because pug groups are going to be different from one to the next.

Play what ya want

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Based on the sample size the differences are statistically insignificant. A larger sample would be required to be able to say for certain that the races tested are all capable of the same DPS output under full raid support conditions (and with a larger sample I'd expect to see less variation between the averages), but the parses provided certainly seem to support that conclusion.

Commancho wrote: »

That's mag DD comparision. What about healers, tanks, gankers etc?
Do you assume that everyone is playing magicka DD class?

This makes no sense. You can only do this kind of comparison with PVE DPS (and most likely the reason this is only comparing magicka DPS is just because the PTS hasn't been up for very long yet and he hasn't had a chance to do proper stamina DPS testing yet). There's no equivalent way to test and compare healers, tanks, or anything PVP because there are too many variables that cannot be removed from the equation.

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group? Like how many people here can get you a babysitter and dishing orbs, shards, major encourage and maybe even IA lightning staff heavy attack non-stop?

Tbh, both sustain of dark elf and khajiit will be really awful if your healers aren't dedicated enough. And judging by how many healers actually think they don't need to provide elemental drain and orbs/shards here from a old thread I read on this forum. I don't think both of them can sustain well. Yes, they can add heavy attack in their rotation or prepare 1/2 mag regen jewelry. But then this is where the gap begins.

Are we going to ignore that right at the beginning of the OP this is addressed, and a link is provided to a thread with extensive solo DPS testing?

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

Yes, I did read the whole thread, included the one you mentioned. So, what's the misinformation here? Did dummer and khajiit sustain magickally solved? Did the tests here don't skewed at all? Like the altmer and dummer comparison?

Yea, both khajiit and dummer can deal really good damage, but like I said their sustain are awful. I didn't deny they're capable DD, but once again, their both sustain are bad as long as you don't have any good healer that can support your resource and even with a healer support your resource, in the long run, it'll still run out of resource sooner than the others magicka races. So, did you just cherry picking and thinking about a argument in your head and then think "Yea, this dude doesn't know they can be good DD". To be fair, all my stamina DDs are khajiit, I'm not even care about meta, but I still think khajiit and dummer deserved a bit more sustain love.

So if you read the OP saying that the tests shown in this thread only apply to fully group buffed DPS, and that there's another thread that analyzes it based on solo-only DPS (which is where sustain issues come into play), then why would you say this:

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

Are we going to ignored that these tests are only legit in a pre-made trial/dungeon group?

Because clearly it's not being ignored. The tests here are one piece of the full story. The tests in the thread linked in the OP are another piece of the story. That thread is specifically the piece of the story that you're complaining is being ignored... but it's not being ignored. It's being pointed out and highlighted as being another piece of the story in the very first post in this thread.

So, can you tell me what's the "misinformation" OP talking about? Dummer and Khajiit are still pretty screwed cause of their sustain. Am I wrong? Ignored something that not many people can even get an dedicated healer is really hard to understand? For real?

Edit: I really think you're totally misunderstood what I'm trying to say. There's no doubt Khajiit and Dummer will be good in a pre-made trials/dungeon group. But in lot of cases like I said before, in many pugs groups there won't be many dedicated healers, one of the things you can do is make your jewelry with mag regen, heavy attack more in rotations..e.t.c. while the others magicka races can use full spell damage or less heavy attacks.

You know that I'm literally not saying anything about what races are good at what right? I've said nothing about what situations Khajiit and Dunmer are and aren't good in.

You complained that the thread was ignoring that these tests are only representative of a fully buffed & supported group situation, and that sustain is more of a factor in solo situations.

I pointed out that the thread was ignoring no such thing, because at the beginning of the very first post it was explicitly highlighted that these are only representative of fully group-buffed situations, and a link was provided to a thread that examines it from a solo self-buffed perspective.

So yes, you're wrong. The thread doesn't ignore that as you claim it does. This thread is explicitly about a comparison of group-buffed DPS, and a link is provided to a thread that is explicitly about a comparison of self-buffed DPS. Obviously you need to look at both types of comparisons to get a full picture.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

All I'm getting out of 5 pages of this is that there a LOT of people that take this stuff WAY too seriously.

Yup. Min/maxers. Bless their 'arts.

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

according to the average, looks like breton is on top

If you're computing an Average, you are already on the wrong track for drawing a meaningful conclusion. Proper analysis begins with Mean, Standard Deviation, Confidence Intervals, Skew, etc.

I need to see some proper mathematical analysis before I would draw any inference from this testing. So far, it's gibberish.

CleymenZero wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwAsgDwnALw

GUESS, who is on top.

Dunmer.... followed by Breton, Khajiit and Altmer.

Averages!


This is surprisingly in line with the statistical tests @susmitds has made.

As so many people wanted data by a well known player , well here's one for you. Go ahead and stop the misinformation.

How about you comment on the previous video? He did the tests on magplar and showed Khajit as being clearly on top.

How would Dunmer be above Altmer as stats are clearly better on Altmer?

Is is there a reason why Khajit was on top on magplar and bottom on mabNB?

How many tests were done?

This video actually raises more questions than it answers. I know there's "video proof" but if you look at the stats sheet, you clearly see that Altmer is better, how would it parse lower than Dunmer?

We live in the era of the fake news, where objective data are objective but who "picks" them up and "how" he picks them up isn't.
Not implying Liko did that (he's not a politician), but the mechanism involved is the same.

In this case, you put together a disgraced Altmer parse with a best Dunmer parse and voilà they are equal!

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

There isn't much to get from this thread yet.

They'll need to do many dozen's of solo tests on each race on equal ground before anyone can see the true numbers compared together. In the end it doesn't matter because even if the dps is even 1%, 2% or 10% in either direction, it will still be an imbalanced change. NO race should be over another, not even by the slightest percent%

Impossible to do unless you restructure passives to be cosmetic only or the same for every race. No MMO in history has been THAT balanced.

The funny thing is the races right now are much more apart than they might be after the changes and yet there is complaining that not every race is identical (=balanced) in the end.

The funny thing happened in 2014, when people KNEW that they would roll an Altmer to be the best at Magicka DPS or a Kajiit / Wood Elf to be best at their competences.

The less funny thing is when ZOS changes which does best what. Does not matter if they are closer, they are disregarding lore (Dunmer less capable at magicka than felines??? Rly?) and race perks (fire affinity race somehow becomes just a turd).