Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

gp1680 · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

I wish zos would figure out a fundamental aspect to making a good mmo great... You don't balance. Race's and classes are supposed to be unbalanced. One race/class should always be better than the next. Rock paper scissors...

This applies to classes, not to races. And if they used this approach the scissor would complain about why the stone is killing them. Stones would complain about why they can't roflstomp scissors and paper at the same time etc. Neverending story.

I agree with this. But all ZOS does from update to update is change the identity of the rock, the paper, and the scissors. So what is their purpose for making these changes? I mean, the game’s been “unbalanced” since inception. Do you really think these racial changes bring anything new to the table except to create a new rock, paper, scissors?

Fuzzybrick · January 2019

All I'm saying is, in WoW vanilla warlock<sorc, so I made 2 warlocs.. An orc and undead. Undead warlock > sorc every time.

Retro68 · January 2019

Well, looks like I'll be deleting about half of my builds when I go on today. Rather pointless now that the reason I was building them up for will soon be nerfed/removed... Thanks ZOS.

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

I wish zos would figure out a fundamental aspect to making a good mmo great... You don't balance. Race's and classes are supposed to be unbalanced. One race/class should always be better than the next. Rock paper scissors...

Agreed 100%.

Uryel · January 2019

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

This is ludicroulsy bad. Probably the worst change you've made to the game in all the years I've been playing, and that's saying something. Even more ludicrous than the recent nerf to the nightblade's path of shadow. So incredibly bad that I crawled from below the rock I usually hide under to actually post, which has happened like... Twice in 3 years ?

Bosmers ARE stealthy. Check with the lore team, if you have to, even though you say you worked with "other teams". They should remain so.

So, Khajiits get a major boost to their stealth (+2m !), and Bosmers get [snip]. Amazing. So, of course, on a more personal note, what am I supposed to do with my very stealthy PvE-only bosmer ? I don't give a damn about stealth detection, that's for PvP, and I don't do that. I don't CARE about that. The whole point of my character is that she can sneak anywhere, anytime, effortlessly. Am I supposed to race-change her into a Khajiit to keep her efficiency, and to hell with the looks ? Or maybe just change completely the playstyle I really enjoy because some [Self-censoring the expletive] decided that everything should be "unique" (understand, overspecialised and minmaxing-friendly), and as such it's not fashionable to have a comparable bonus on two different races ?

Seriously, there are lots of things you guys made over the years that have been very questionable, but you're going way to far in that "let's make everything specialised to please the minmaxers" trend. Gotta love all your so called "let's have freedom and all", while you're actually doing otherwise.

By the way, on a related note, if you wanted people to have freedom in character development, there wouln't be a need to chose morphs based on the ressource they use, we could chose based on the effect of the morph itself... But of course you need to specialise in either magicka or stamina, so we don't really, unless we play hybrids, and everyone will tell you that hybrids aren't all that great. Whatever... I could detail why and how it would be alot better for that so called freedom of choice to remove magicka and stamina and have only one ressource instead, with only minimal adjustments to the game mechanics, I've actually thought it through thoroughly, but never bothered to do so because I knew no one would listen. It's freedom-friendly, not minmaxing friendly, and despite all your talks, freedom of choice is NOT something you're encouraging.

I guess I'm just gonna have to play something different entirely because obviously it's impossible for 2 races to have similar mechanics. I haven't been this pissed by a change log in about 15 years. Congrats, that's quite an achievement.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Alexsae · January 2019

Coming from a pvp perspective, DE Vamps get to keep their flame resistance...in fact they get it buffed.

Meanwhile, Argonian werewolves now get ZERO poison resist. Where is the balance? Please rethink this.

Inig0 · January 2019

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings everyone! First the combat team would like to thank you all for the feedback you’ve provided, and we want you to know that we’ve been closely monitoring the direction of the conversations thus far, and will be discussing them internally for potential adjustments if the feedback stays similar after PTS goes live. While we won’t be making any changes for the first PTS, there might be tweaks for PTS week 2. On that note, we’d like to clear up some commonly asked questions.

“Why are some of the stat values different when comparing races?”
In the initial post we referenced how each race had been balanced around our set bonus efficiency system, which aims to break down all the bonuses into a mathematical value of comparison. Each race uses a number as their benchmark (~6.5 set bonuses), and the values of their individual passives all add up to reach it. That means that not every bonus is compared one to one; such as the Orc’s Brawny passive vs the Imperial’s Tough and Imperial Mettle passives, nor were they compared point for point to their current bonuses on Live.

“Why are these stats lower than what I’m used to?”
Similarly to the note above, not all of the stats have been converted 1:1 in our adjustment from percentages to flat bonuses. The bonuses to Health, Magicka, and Stamina in particular will be lower compared to previously, since these will not scale with your Champion Point’s bonus of 20% increase. This is because they do not apply to your base stats, similarly to food or 5 piece bonuses. With this in mind, we increased some other areas of racial bonuses to make up for the potential loss of power.

Again, thank you all for the perspectives granted, and we look forward to seeing even more feedback once you get your hands on it this week, on the PTS!

I was really pleased to see you guys introduce the methodology for balancing the racial with racial power like youve talk about previously. How do you weigh things like ulti gen or crit chance into racial power? The ult gen one is really tough because there arent many set bonuses like it and the crit one is also very difficult to consider because it has a variable effectiveness based on present buffs like major force. Im concerned those two passives/ effects being anywhere in the racial bonuses weigh too much to balance with things like base stats. @ZOS_Gilliam

killa_shroomz · January 2019

I feel like these changes are making very core changes to what some races were chosen for in the hope of balance in the wrong places. The classes you feel were "always exceptional at x" retain their feeling, while some races lose it entirely. High elf retains it's ability to be great spellcasters, Also you said charging up a skill makes them more powerful. It just reduces some damage they take while doing a cast or channel. (I think) They also restore stamina or magika while casting a class ability, but gain no bonus to max stamina or Stam (specifically) recovery.
The dark elf is losing its fire damage which affects the reason a large number of people chose that race. Then you give them some stamina and health, and then weapon and spell damage. So, (imo) you are taking a class that excelled at fire magical (anything) roles, and turning them into OK stamina and magical damage dealers, with a bit of extra health. My dark elf Templar didn't have the regen of a high elf, or cost reduction of a Breton, but I got extra damage with fire. A trade I could decide if I wanted. So now my dark elf Templar is going to be subpar to a high elf and Breton because they don't get stamina additions, just changes to the magical passives they have.
Not also added stamina or health passives that remove the extra magika they once had (ie dark elf) , just changed magical passives. This class that was also predominantly magical, is getting reduced and molded into OK at both. Does that make sense? You are not removing high elves very powerful magical abilities to mesh them into wielding stamina also. Why do this to dark elves and khajit? These 2 races become OK at both, while most other races gain stamina or magical presence.

The rest of this is personal feelings and not as important as what I wanted to say above, but still relevant I feel to the race changes.

You removed the wood elf and khajit bonus damage from stealth. You previously removed the bonus damage from stealth against enemies(I don't remember if it was a stun or the bonus damage you removed). So now the only bonus damage from stealth is from the night blade passive. Which I think we are going to see disappear soon, simply because people don't like being killed by someone that plays and builds a sneaky class. Which you put all these additional ways to counter. I personally dislike people using damage shields, and so do a lot of other people, but those players are not getting direct damage reductions for playing that specific way.

I see a lot of comments about "Well, now my magical wood elf is going to be viable". That is like saying my magical redguard will be viable now.(wood elves gain nothing magical, so I'm not even sure why I am seeing these posts. Anyway) If you pick the wrong race and class combo and level that character to 50, you made a mistake. That's OK, it's part of the learning process and part of the community's responsibility to help new players. That doesn't always happen, but usually, it does. The game company should not be responsible for taking a community worth of mistakes and changing the whole game to make those mistakes viable, while simultaneously coming out with harder and harder content those people will never be able to play because it is "OK" for you to make a bad choice.

This is all in my opinion of course. Thank you for reading and allowing us to share our opinions. No harshness meant.

NobleMatias · January 2019

I have to say the changes are very balanced, and pretty much most people complaining about them are bias because their race choice used to be meta, but now the gap is so close you really cant say one race is the best. Flat stats was a perfect choice and I appreciate ZOS combat team and Gil for the much needed changes to race and game balance. The only two races I would have a look at would be the Nord and Imperial, If I look at their stats side by side it would seem as if the Nord has much more power in a broad spectrum, and the imperial is secluded to only two small stat increases and shoehorned into a sword and board build. basically the imperial only has 1000 health and 500 stamina compared to a Nords ultimate gen, cold resist and chill immunity. I would make an imperials stats just a tad higher to compensate for the lack of diversity or just make them more diverse In what unique stats and capabilities they have. I am sure ZOS has done the math and I can test and see this. Great job guys and gals.

The next big thing to look at would be the champion point system, I believe it should have never seen the light of day, but I understand why it was implemented. It was implemented to give players a sense of power progression after lvl 50, [snip] If you made a skilltree somewhat like Skyrim In that you can choose a path with a branching subclass system. There would be many different paths a character could choose, but of course you would have the 3 main types or Mundus paths being warrior, mage, and thief with branched and intertwined paths for hybrid play styles and builds. These paths would not feature so much stat bonus but more unique skills and abilities that are made up by you guys. It would stop the power creep and mind numbing stat increases the champion point system offers, and at the same time bring self uniqueness to a players play style and build. This would allow players to feel special about what they have created.
[edited for bashing]

Uryel · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

I have to say the changes are very balanced, and pretty much most people complaining about them are bias because their race choice used to be meta

They are balanced indeed, I'll give you that. It doesn't mean they are necessary, welcome, or even justified by any need. Not some of them, anyway. And if there is one thing I cannot be accused of, it's being meta. The word itself gives me the creeps. There used to be a word for "join the bandwagon and do just like everyone else", and that word was "mainstream", but hey, kids those days and all that.

Personnaly, I'm crossed because those changes go along the same line as previously, but even further, and that line is "let's say we're giving more freedom of choice and more open possibilities when we're actually making sure pople will fit nicely in the tiny boxes we have designed".

I'm an old timer. My first MMO was Anarchy Online, and since then I've seen my fair share of games with a large variety of game mechanics. Over the years I've noticed an oversimplification of general mechanics in games (a direct consequence of the commercial success of World of Warcraft, that everyone wants to replicate, which means appealing to larger crowds rather than giving some complexity to the enthusiast), and unfortunately ESO has been strolling along that path quite merrily. But I could forgive that, because the game universe itself is pretty amazing, and well, I don't have time to tinker with a build for months just to realise it's crap and start again from scratch. Somewhat simple, I'm fine with. "MMORPG for dummies", though, is getting a bit annoying. Even more so because I really love this game. I'm pretty sure the sheer amount of crowns I've spent over the years is proof enough of that... Along with the fact that I gifted it to my wife and we're now playing together most evening, and SHE is also spending some crowns. Good thing we don't have kids, eh ?

So, ok, we don't have support classes or proper crowd control. We merely have the holy trinity of heal, tank and damage dealer. There was a time in MMOs where support and control would be proper classes, but ok, one make do with what one has. For the support, I've made a magblade that fights with a restoration staff on both bars (a nirnhoned one on the "damage" bar, mind you !), a "life stealing" vampire. Every attack heals and / or buffs myself and / or the party. But I can only play her with friends, because shes "not a proper healer". Whatever, she's amazing at what she does, but doesn't fit in a tiny box. As for the control... Well, proper crowd control doesn't exist in ESO, and can't exist with the immunity mechanic, and was nerfed even more with Murkmire, so let's forget about that. I do miss my gravity / radiation controler from City of Heroes, but that was long ago, back in the days where keeping a group of enemies incapacitated until you killed them all wasn't considered outlandish.

But recently, the trend was to "bring something unique to the party". Apparently, it's too complicated to have multi-use skills. I'm especially thinking about "path of shadows", which was nerfed really hard in Murkmire. The base skill has absolutely ZERO use, it's only once morphed that you get to chose between healing OR damaging. Previously, you had damage in the base skill, and either a larger damaging area for one morph or a damage enemies / heal allies morph. The latter was simply one of my favorite skills, but obviously, it wasn't a main damage skill nor a main heal skill, so it got removed. Not specialised enough. Didn't fit in tiny boxes.

So, my point is, all this talk about changes to "bring more freedom of choice" and "bring unique things to the party" is simply preposterous. The whole point is to please single-minded minmaxers, at the expense of people who actually try "non meta" stuff. The change with Khajiits and Bosmers is spectacular in that respect : one becomes even better at hiding, the other entirely loses this ability but becomes super good at spotting hidden characters. I smell PvP interference in my PvE. And that is happening even though Bosmers have been spectacularly good at sneaking since at the very least 2002 and the original "Morrowind". Probably even before that, but I never played Arena or Daggerfall so I wouldn't know.

But hey, this change is specialised, perfectly fits in tiny boxes, and infuriating AF. As mentionned by someone above, these changes do have an impact on the reason a race was chosen in the first place. They might be inconspicuous for the newcomers, but not for people who have been around for a while.

Also, there is one major flaw in the reasoning. Well, several, but at least this one. Every race needs to be overly specialised in something, and balanced. I'm fine with balancing, but why specialise ? This reasoning relies on the fact that everyone starts the game with complete knowledge of the races' bonuses and chose them exactly for that, and that only. However, again, that's only true for minmaxers. Lots of people will go with what they feel look nice, or chose from whatever is available in the alliance they feel would be good for them... Whatever the reason, the stats are not always the main reason. But assuming they are... Why do we not have a complete description of the effects of racial passives at the race selection screen ? If racial passives are this much of a matter, shouldn't the ingame information be at least available from start ?

But of course, if it's a matter of chosing between lore and stats, then why not go any further ? Obviously, Bosmers are no longer supposed to be stealthy, even though it's been one of their most defining traits in the lore along their archery prowesses in the whole history of the elder scrolls... So why not go even further and forgo the lore entirely ?

We talk about freedom, right ? Then make people able to chose any 3 passives from every racial passive in the game. I mean, since obviously lore doesn't matter anymore no matter what has been said, at least THAT would be freedom, would allow strong specialised characters, would let people be inventive if they wish to, and could even lead to a new sort of token for the crown store : "change passives". But of course, not gonna happen. Doesn't fit in tiny boxes. If it did happen though, I'd happily spend crowns for my 7 characters in order to do just that...

I'll go even further along the path of freedom of choice : let's remove "magicka" and "stamina", and have only one pool called, say, "energy". Every current build ? Still viable. What is currently hybrid, and not so efficient ? Suddenly viable. EVERY morph in every line would suddenly become a viable morph, because we wouldn't need to chose according to the ressource we're specialised in (when there is one available, else it means that most of the time we don't even use the skill at all). We could chose based on the effect we want. A staff suddenly becomes a viable ranged weapon for a sword fighter. Now that would allow some creativity with builds. Sure, it would require some adjustments to some sets and a few skills, Pelinal's set would become moot, but generally speaking it's perfectly doable and would remove the worst flaw this game has had since it came out : required overspecialisation. I had thought about a more detailed post about that, explaining in great length why it would be amazing, how to do it properly, and so on. Until today and the details about the racial changes, I was even considering actually writting it and submitting it to public opinion. As of today, I realise it's moot. It doesn't fit in tiny boxes.

Even putting aside the coding work, it will never happen, because the clear will behind the changes is that we should specialise even more. No "let's heal a bit and damage a bit" skill, this should be removed because it's not "unique" enough. No real crowd control, let's make sure that you can't be knocked down for many seconds after you've been stunned for half a second. No two races with any overlapping field of expertise, that's not "unique" enough. Magicka OR stamina, and then chose your morphs from that, because THAT fits in tiny boxes. Specialise more, play mostly by the stats, and google it all, because no detailed information will be provided at character creation and very little after that. Let's go several step further the path to dumbed down town. What's the next step ? Being unable to attack at all when wielding a restoration staff ? That would certainly be "unique" !

Well, while I'm on the matter of skills... Why the heck are all class abilities magicka ones until morphed ? In a game where specialisation is mandatory and becoming even more so, it's a bit weird that you'd have to use a skill for a long while before you can make it fit. Special mention to the new "path of shadows" that will take one of the precious 5 spots on the skill bar doing nothing useful until it can be morphed. Why are informations about the morphs not available before morphs actually become available ? Some addons can do that, but "virtually", they can't read informations about something that isn't there, so they actually have their own database for that, meaning a non up to date addon will get it wrong... That could, and should, be a built-in game function. But of course, it's taken like 4 years to have built-in proper search functionalities for guild traders announced, so I guess I'm asking way too much here.

Also, will the infinite loading screens ever get fixed ? I gave it a try today, I counted almost 10 real life minutes before I could actually enter some area. Plenty of time to make some tea, and even let it cool off a bit. Maybe some work on fixing the bugs and some quality of life improvements would be more urgent than messing with the classes, breaking lore, and removing some interesting options, don't you think ?

My point with this long-winded, angry post, is simply that the reasons announced to make these changes are so obviously lies that I'm actually angry for real. Those changes, along with the ones that occured in the previous overhauls, are not giving people more choices, they are removing choices. They tend to incite more specialisation, more "meta" play, and ALOT less creativity. They are made to please minmaxers and other stat crunchers, but do nothing positive for the average player. Best case scenario, the average player won't see much of a difference and won't care. Worst case scenario, the average player will feel their character is broken and ragequit. I sure will feel like my Bosmer is broken when her stealth will be taken away.

Also, saying they try to "respect the lore" while removing stealth from the Bosmers is especially infuriating. Blantant lies or complete disregard of the lore ; expectations of short memory from the player base or simple blunder ; I can't tell, but I certainly don't like it. But the changes that would indeed bring real freedom of choice, like free passive selection or a way to chose the morphs for what they do rather than what ressource they use ? We'll never see them, of course. I'm betting the official reason would be "it breaks the lore" or such, while it's actually that... Well, I'm sure you know what I'm gonna say by now, if you read it all : it doesn't fit in tiny boxes.

helios777 · January 2019

An awful decision by ZOS when it comes to the racial changes

Zombi_Cat · January 2019

10/10 - Balanced, and really unique. If you keep it like it is, I really think it'll accomplish the whole 'effective combos/universal applicability/gameplay uniqueness/mathematical balancing' thing fantastically! The new buffs sound and feel like they really fit their respective races. A new, better meta and more distinguished races for everyone!

Dakatar · January 2019

Regarding the removal of Stealthy from Bosmer / Wood Elf:

Uryel wrote: »

"Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds."

This is ludicroulsy bad. Probably the worst change you've made to the game in all the years I've been playing, and that's saying something. Even more ludicrous than the recent nerf to the nightblade's path of shadow. So incredibly bad that I crawled from below the rock I usually hide under to actually post, which has happened like... Twice in 3 years ?

Bosmers ARE stealthy. Check with the lore team, if you have to, even though you say you worked with "other teams". They should remain so.

The above is spot on. Team, please take a good look.

xaraan · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

I have to say the changes are very balanced, and pretty much most people complaining about them are bias because their race choice used to be meta, but now the gap is so close you really cant say one race is the best. Flat stats was a perfect choice and I appreciate ZOS combat team and Gil for the much needed changes to race and game balance. The only two races I would have a look at would be the Nord and Imperial, If I look at their stats side by side it would seem as if the Nord has much more power in a broad spectrum, and the imperial is secluded to only two small stat increases and shoehorned into a sword and board build. basically the imperial only has 1000 health and 500 stamina compared to a Nords ultimate gen, cold resist and chill immunity. I would make an imperials stats just a tad higher to compensate for the lack of diversity or just make them more diverse In what unique stats and capabilities they have. I am sure ZOS has done the math and I can test and see this. Great job guys and gals.

Not much for the dismissive nature of the first sentence. The changes to Argonian are not balanced. Making them fight for runner up at support (where racials matter the least compared to DPS) and come in last place for mag dps and not even worth testing in stam dps roles =/= balance. I have 15 argonians, you think the 10 dps I have are because they were meta best? spoiler: no. And my first Argonian: my DK tank that has been Argonian since launch wasn't picked b/c it was meta best either.

I certainly expected to see the potion passive nerfed (though I might disagree that it needed it, I could see people believed it enough that it would get one), I did not expect to see them take a hammering on every single passive and not get much in return for doing a little better at DPS. Not asking for anything crazy, but it would have been fair.

TheTraveler · January 2019

megageeklizzy wrote: »

It feels like Dunmer are being made almost entirely useless. I won't be race-changing mine, as I role-play them, and I am frankly very unhappy with the fact that they will now be far less effective. I hope some of these changes are reconsidered. Many do not make sense from a lore standpoint at all or from a gameplay standpoint in terms of balance. The constant power creep is already bad enough without a major unexpected nerf.

Absolutely. I can't understand the removal of the magica buff the Dunmer race had. And the flame damage is a buff they've had since at least Morrowind, and possibly earlier Elder Scroll games, which fit in perfectly with the lore. At least these buffs still made them useful as magica toons, but now there are literally only two races left that are any good as magica users, especially when it comes to DPS.: Altmer and Breton. Seems that ZOS has decided magica users besides Altmer have to be relegated to the healer ranks and stay there... but wait, they have nerfed Argonians, previously an obvious healer choice into oblivion... I bet a lot of Argonian healers are having nerd rage upon reading these patch notes.

They have not made the races more equal, they have made them less equal.

TheTraveler · January 2019

code65536 wrote: »

I can see competitive tanks going for score race-changing to Nord for that ultgen...

Yep, a cash-grab by ZOS unless we get a race-change token for every toon. Because some races have now become more niche and some have become useless. My orc tank will now be better off as a DPS than a tank, except that I have already mastered sword and shield on him. So it's either sit without a tank and gain yet another DPS toon by learning a new weapon skill line, or race change to Nord.

Not to mention my other toons in which I carefully selected race (already spent about 4 race change tokens to get it just right) that have already invested in skill lines that would now benefit from yet another race change.

I have 12 toons on the NA server, 9 of them are CP 810. I have 8 toons on the EU server. Can you imagine how much I'd have to pay to try and recover from these ridiculously over the top changes?

TheTraveler · January 2019

Minno wrote: »

jlb1705 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

jlb1705 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.

Is it not balanced by this part though?:

Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.

This line is definitely a nerf - not just the difference between 9% and 8%, but the difference between passive recovery and cost reduction to only weapon skills. It sounds like the cost reduction wouldn't apply to things like Surprise Attack, Killer's Blade, Relentless Focus, Razor Caltrops, Resolving Vigor, Rearming Trap, etc.

You forget weapon abilities could also include ultimates.

Ultimate abilities consume ultimate and not stamina, therefore the Redguard passives didn't affect them either before or after these changes.

I think you are misreading the benefit. Instead of some Stam recovery percentage, you'll get a cost reduction on potentially all weapon abilities. Includes staffs, swords, etc. And might include ultimate costs, something that isn't a Nerf, at least in my eyes. Plus they still get some Stam recovery out of it anyway.

Don't you think stamina abilities instead of weapon abilities would have been more in line with what it was previously? Why radically change characters that players have been playing for years and have spent time and money on fine-tuning them? Small changes I can go with. But these people have been trying to reinvent the wheel here and it smells like cash grab to me.

TheTraveler · January 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

Everyone saying RIP Dunmer and all I see is Dunmer looking pretty good as potential stamblade in PVP. The extra stam and mag paired with the weapon damage has potential. Get a few more cloaks off.

Yes, and what about the people who have already invested in Dunmer as magDKs? They have completely removed the 3% magica buff that came with resist flame.

TheTraveler · January 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

I'm overall okay with it, but tanking Argonians can expect to lose 1.5-2k health. Hoping ZOS can meet us in the middle over that. 1000 is not a good compensation for losing 9% max health especially if we're losing healing received.

We've been relegated to being Healbots only now, which sucks honestly. We lost poison immunity as well so that's going to sting a bit in PvP too. Not really thrilled about these changes honestly.

Even the healing has been nerfed...

TheTraveler · January 2019

Gilcroixb14_ESO wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Can we please start moving away from the need to use actual consumables to take advantage of Resourceful? I was hoping this whole rework would address this problem because it's still the only passive that requires you to go out of your way and spend gold (or time farming) to constantly take advantage of it. Having it be a sustain tool is great and all, but having it come with an out-of-pocket expense makes it extremely costly the longer it's used.

This ^

That has been the worst racial in game since beta. I can't believe it's been 5 years and it's still there. It's linked to something you try your best not to use , because it costs you, not only that but potions are not needed for much of the content. You can go days without ever having to use one. where other races have their bonuses tied to using weapons or spells , which is something you do constantly.

There are other racials that would seem to fit much better than potions. Scaly skin would give physical resistance. There is a lot of Shadowscale lore for stealth abilities. As someone who has walked across my share of swamp lands while deer hunting, I can tell you it is very difficult and tiring. Which makes me think argonians would have been better as a stamina race rather than magicka. I have never understood why they have magical healing abilities either. Since reptiles regenerate physically , you would think health regeneration would fit much better.

I don't really understand the + health for Dark elf instead of magikca.

I liked the Breton changes , not sure Nords should get the same spell resist bonus as a Breton though.

Don't you realize that you could have used ANY potions? I have so many potions that I pick up from the game itself in combat that I don't have space to keep them and have to sell them. Since I made an argonian toon, I could palm off all my useless potions onto her, since my other toons use custom made potions. But maybe I should not be saying this, in case ZOS decides to nerf Argonians even MORE...

TheTraveler · January 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Left4Daud wrote: »

Wood elves losing disease immunity and stealth bonuses for a worthless detection bonus?

I just don’t get why you guys are trying to reinvent the wheel with these changes. You didn’t need to take anything away from our beloved characters, small tweaks to the numbers over a series of monitored updates would have more than sufficed.

Now wood elves will have these unexciting passives for the next two years until you decide to smash everything and change it again.

I’m just not enthused about this and I know nothing I say will have any influence over the balance direction so I won’t even bother making suggestions. All I can say is that if I wasn’t so attached to my wood elves I’d delete them after seeing this news, that’s how much of a let down it is.

First time since Morrowind that Bosmer get no bonus to sneaking. That's what chaps my hiney.

I can't believe that they took away the stealth bonus. That was one of Bosmer's main selling points. Watch all the Bosmer stamblades change to Kahjit now. Kajhit is now the only remaining stealth toon. Tell me that's not removing race diversity... Cash grab!

Sabretusks · January 2019

Okay, so I logged into the PTS, and yeah... both of my Orc PvE tanks were hit pretty hard with the health and stamina adjustments. I would hope that if you don't give Orcs a fair amount of base stats, you should adjust something where tanks can get additional resources. Maybe passives from heavy armor or something? All I know is that I'm missing about 2k health and stamina and I don't see any way to get that back.

Uryel · January 2019

TheTraveler wrote: »

Absolutely. I can't understand the removal of the magica buff the Dunmer race had. And the flame damage is a buff they've had since at least Morrowind, and possibly earlier Elder Scroll games, which fit in perfectly with the lore.

TheTraveler wrote: »

I can't believe that they took away the stealth bonus. That was one of Bosmer's main selling points. Watch all the Bosmer stamblades change to Kahjit now. Kajhit is now the only remaining stealth toon. Tell me that's not removing race diversity... Cash grab!

Precisely. I say these changes reek of PvP interference. I suppose some of these changes make sense from a PvP point of view, but I don't give a rat's bottom about PvP. Dunmers have had fire bonus for several games now (in Morrowind, it was actually "destruction spells" bonus, but that's the closest you could find back then), Bosmers have been stealthy for as far as I remember, and that was precisely why I played one in EVERY Elder Scrolls so far, for the stealth and bow combo...

Here we clearly have a team that spits on the lore. If they want to add freedom and diversity, there are some way more ballsy solutions, like letting people pick their own passives at creation. That's not even more lore-breaking than this, and that would at least achieve that so-called goal of adding diversity. But no, let's spit on the lore AND f*** up the players in the process, shall we ?

TheTraveler · January 2019

Here's an idea: Why not give every race 4 set passives, but let the player choose the 5th one. That would TRULY allow for racial diversity.

Uryel · January 2019

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Right now there are a lack of effective options in picking your race/class combination.
]This is mainly due to the fact that many of the racial bonuses are percent increases of stats, rather than flat ones. This means races that provided a bonus to a stat that you didn’t focus into gave very little tangible impact.

Well, in a game that wants you to specialise, this should be pretty obvious. But the opposite is going to be true, too : if you DID specialise in a stat, flat values will lower the benefit compared to a percentage. From what I read, it's obvious to me that some of my characters will lose some max stamina, for instance.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Not every race provides a completely unique gameplay element.

Why should they ? Again, we have this "unique" nonsense. I still don't understand how you guys can pull both "let's have more variety" and "let's make things unique" together as if they were the same thing. Variety means the possibility to make different things. Uniqueness means restrictions to make sure things do not overlap. At least the way you guys use them. So, they are completely different, and even opposed, things.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom.

Sorry for the language, but I call [snip] on that.

If your "core mantra" was freedom, then racial choice wouldn't be tied to alliance choice. Well of course we can pay more to have real freedom there, but that's not "core".

If your "core mantra" was freedom, there would be no problem in having a skill like the previous version of "path of shadow" in the game, that did damage and healing, both subpar, but both amazing for support or solo, instead of having something "unique" and mutually exclusive.

If your "core mantra" was freedom, we wouldn't have to specialise in either stamina or magicka to be efficient. We wouldn't be forced to pick a morph from the ressource it uses rather than the effect we want to use. We wouldn't have our damage tied to the size of a ressource pool (which, with the planned changes, means a damage nerf for those who had specialised alot, since flat values will return less than percentage for specialised characters, by the way).

If your "core mantra" was freedom, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd be picking whatever passive we like at creation, or purchasing a "respec passives" token from the crown store when the update goes live.

If your "core mantra" was freedom, we'd be free to play the character we love the way we like them, and not be forced to endure ludicrous changes such as fire damage boost removal from Dunmers or stealth removal from Bosmers, which have been some major defining traits for those races throughout the whole history of the Elder Scrolls.

You're not "expanding the horizon for choice", you're restricting it. And spiting on the lore as you do so.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling. This was one of our more challenging but exciting tasks

Well then, the team should probably get back to work, because this goal was utterly failed.

[edited for profanity bypass]

TheTraveler · January 2019

biggda76 wrote: »

rip dunmer vs altmer conflict

Yes, they have dumbed down the game to simple choices now. Welcome, age of the Altmer. Luckily I already had a few. But I had a few Dunmer too. They shall henceforth be retired.

At least stam builds still have a bit of variety to choose from, though I am very sad for all the thief and assassin Bosmers.

Fuzzybrick · January 2019

Instead of "fixing" racial passives... "Fix" load times.

anadandy · January 2019

JiDul wrote: »

Finally NB gank builds get a nerf though.

At a cost to every non-ganker Bosmer in the game (aka PVE and other class PVP - we do exist).

Moonsorrow · January 2019

Uryel wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Right now there are a lack of effective options in picking your race/class combination.
]This is mainly due to the fact that many of the racial bonuses are percent increases of stats, rather than flat ones. This means races that provided a bonus to a stat that you didn’t focus into gave very little tangible impact.

Well, in a game that wants you to specialise, this should be pretty obvious. But the opposite is going to be true, too : if you DID specialise in a stat, flat values will lower the benefit compared to a percentage. From what I read, it's obvious to me that some of my characters will lose some max stamina, for instance.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Not every race provides a completely unique gameplay element.

Why should they ? Again, we have this "unique" nonsense. I still don't understand how you guys can pull both "let's have more variety" and "let's make things unique" together as if they were the same thing. Variety means the possibility to make different things. Uniqueness means restrictions to make sure things do not overlap. At least the way you guys use them. So, they are completely different, and even opposed, things.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom.

Sorry for the language, but I call [snip] on that.

If your "core mantra" was freedom, then racial choice wouldn't be tied to alliance choice. Well of course we can pay more to have real freedom there, but that's not "core".

If your "core mantra" was freedom, there would be no problem in having a skill like the previous version of "path of shadow" in the game, that did damage and healing, both subpar, but both amazing for support or solo, instead of having something "unique" and mutually exclusive.

If your "core mantra" was freedom, we wouldn't have to specialise in either stamina or magicka to be efficient. We wouldn't be forced to pick a morph from the ressource it uses rather than the effect we want to use. We wouldn't have our damage tied to the size of a ressource pool (which, with the planned changes, means a damage nerf for those who had specialised alot, since flat values will return less than percentage for specialised characters, by the way).

If your "core mantra" was freedom, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd be picking whatever passive we like at creation, or purchasing a "respec passives" token from the crown store when the update goes live.

If your "core mantra" was freedom, we'd be free to play the character we love the way we like them, and not be forced to endure ludicrous changes such as fire damage boost removal from Dunmers or stealth removal from Bosmers, which have been some major defining traits for those races throughout the whole history of the Elder Scrolls.

You're not "expanding the horizon for choice", you're restricting it. And spiting on the lore as you do so.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling. This was one of our more challenging but exciting tasks

Well then, the team should probably get back to work, because this goal was utterly failed.

Thanks for this, it is nice to see others also here who say things as they are.

Sometimes feedback might sound harsh, but someone has to say it for those who do not even yet understand what all these mean. And what the path ahead will be like for the entire game if this is the chosen way of "freedom" (less options and nerfs to anything that is not a meta pve dps pretty much)

The last couple of days been feeling a bit lonely sort of since not many here seem to defend common sense in middle of all these changes. Even i am almost stunned that the feeling of "play how you want" is being hammered down and everyone, dps, healers and tanks are being pushed to just even smaller circle of variety.

As i said in another thread, wish i could rewind everything back to Summerset launch situation, before the speed nerfs and current racial nerfs, the nerf to 1h enchants efficiency (that are making tanks actually have even less freedom, you know this if play a serious tank). Even class rep @Liofa said that he did warn them about the health flat amount stat to racials and the 1h enchant nerf to be limiting choices actually, and did give alternative solution, but was not able to do anything to stop them.

So the whole "play how you want" is more and more "play how WE want", sadly.

I mean seriously, what does ZOS loose if we have more creative and fun builds using % bonuses and imagination if someone wants? What was the benefit from this racial bonus flat stat roulette?

Funny thing is, more freedom would be if racials were taken off completely from all races, if not bother to make them actually properly be equal in opportunity. But i feel that the decision has been made already, and it is to take away all the outside of the box building, variety and fun.. now and in future.

Year of the Dragon is upon us, one really must find the inner dragon to endure this prison called freedom. *keeps pressing Green Dragon Blood when taking massive Oblivion damage from all these nerfs*

[edited to remove quote]

silver1surfer69 · January 2019

The thing with the race change is, that it completely changes the looks of ur char. On my first char i did e race changes and it completely took the personality away.

hakan · January 2019

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

The thing with the race change is, that it completely changes the looks of ur char. On my first char i did e race changes and it completely took the personality away.

What do you mean? i want to change my dunmers face so i was counting on this race change, so i need to design her from the start? Like i cant do small changes cuz it will show a different template?