Altmer vs Dummer

Tasear · January 2019

kojou wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What if the gave more damage for spell and weapon to help hybrids and compassionate for not having sustain like others?

150 to Poison and 150 to Flame could be compelling.

I support you guys in this movement but don't think posion dps lorewise is a dummer thing. I think Argonian have a better chance to acquire that idea with posion.

mairwen85 · January 2019

Thing is they don't want races leading to builds focusing on one damage type... Apparently. So no ice mage, fire mage, lightning mage stemming from race passives.

So either a flat damage upgrade, or recovery numbers to equalize dunmer (e.g. Fire damage restores max resource) - - nothing more. Doesn't have to be bis, just level pegging.

BigBadVolk · January 2019

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Altmers don’t have black hair

This ^

GusTheWizard · January 2019

I’m just glad they made Breton better. I’ll be able to run bi-stat food and get 2040 magic because I won’t need any health glyphs while using bi-stat.

binho · January 2019

Facefister wrote: »

Any post with "PvP" in its content should be ignored. No matter what the change is, they whine first, and whine later.

The thing is, in PVP you can get a group regardless of the class you're using... But try doing vet trials and you'll see people are not that understanding

Tasear · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Thing is they don't want races leading to builds focusing on one damage type... Apparently. So no ice mage, fire mage, lightning mage stemming from race passives.

So either a flat damage upgrade, or recovery numbers to equalize dunmer (e.g. Fire damage restores max resource) - - nothing more. Doesn't have to be bis, just level pegging.

How would dummer compare to altmer with more damage increase?

Jamdarius · January 2019

Facefister wrote: »

Besides, dunmer were always allrounder lore wise. The new racials reflect that even more now. How much are they behind? 1%? 2%?

Lore wise Dunmers are good spellsword however this game does not provide us with enough "tools" to create a true hybrid builds:
1. Lack of sustain - when on hybrid you cannot sustain properly as HA from stam weapon does not give you MAGICKA back (unless glyph is used) and Staff HA will not give you stamina (unless glyph is used).
2. Lack of Armor Passives providing something for Hybrid Builds
3. Lack of unique class/skill line that would make us benefit from choosing to be Hybrid build
4. Not rly many sets that provide good bonuses and reward us for playing Hybrid builds.

If you ask me I would love these changes if we actually had spellsword class and I could wield sword and shoot fireballs without switching bars but I bet with current armor passives and lack of good sets I do believe we can only but dream.

As for going back on topic: my friend said that with the "free" 600 HP increase we can now enchant our armor with 1 more magicka glyph instead of health glyph/tri stat to provide us with proper health for vet content however as I am using Skoria (hate Zaan) I already have high health pool so I truly see no benefit from it at all... I wish that meagre 600 health was changed into either magicka or more dmg.

idk · January 2019

I will put Code's quote from Gil's thread in here. It sums up the comparison between the two races on live and the propose changes. It is a well worded statement. If this is how it goes live I will not be keeping a dunmer for anything.

code65536 wrote: »

RIP Dunmer.

Unless you intend to play a hybrid, there's absolutely no reason to pick Dunmer over Altmer for a mag class.

In the current patch, Dunmer-vs-Altmer was a question of damage-vs-sustain. With the high amount of fire damage at play, Dunmer did slightly higher DPS than Altmer, but Altmer had better sustain. Dunmer had 9% max mag (6%+3%) vs. Altmer's 10%, so that was not a substantial difference.

Now with these proposed changes...
The magicka deficit between Dunmer and Altmer is larger.

Replacing Dunmer's higher flame damage with weapon damage (useful only for a hybrid) means that Dunmer now does less DPS than Altmer (as they have the same spell damage bonus).

Dunmer doesn't have Altmer's sustain.

So whereas in the past Dunmer lost sustain in exchange for slightly more damage versus Altmer, now they've lost sustain and lost damage. So... why would anyone pick Dunmer?

Suggestion: Give Dunmer fire abilities an additional X spell damage. It would make them once again a meaningful alternative to Altmer and is consistent with their lore background.

Chrlynsch · January 2019

My lols magical fire werewolf appoves of the change

Numerikuu · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

What if the gave more damage for spell and weapon to help hybrids and compassionate for not having sustain like others?

Who plays hybrid? Hybrid builds have been fewer and fewer ever since the Morrowind sustain nerfs hit the scene. Add on top the constant nerfs to abilities by increasing their costs with each patch...
As nice as hybrid sounds it just isn't a good choice, which really sucks. I wish hybrids were viable in this game other than in overland ezmode content where everything dies to simple light attacks. Sounds great in theory, but is very flawed in execution.

Extra spell and weapon damage sounds reasonable, but there's still issues with sustain, though that's moreso down to increased skill costs and returns from heavy attacks. Stamina has it easier, while Magicka--especially magdk, feels so clunky when it comes to returns... I wish flame staves spat out multiple fire bolts instead of the one, returning magicka with each bolt landing like each tick from a lightning staff does. Because when that one bolt misses for whatever reason? It sucks... But I'm going off topic now lol.

MLGProPlayer · January 2019

Comparing just their magicka bonuses (since the other stuff is irrelevant for magicka DPS):

Altmer:

- 2000 max magicka
- 258 spell damage
- 192 magicka recovery

Dunmer:

- 1250 max magicka
- 258 spell damage

Difference:

- 750 magicka (or around 72 spell damage)
- 192 magicka recovery (since Dunmer has none)

That's a significant difference and leaves no room for debate about which race is BiS.

Numerikuu · January 2019

And Magdks already struggle enough as it is with sustain... Dunmer loosing extra magicka recovery, when they're a magic using race, is gonna hurt big time...

Restore their magicka recovery!!!

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · January 2019

So, comparing the two races - what do y'all think about their passives in a dueling context?

Does the Dunmers' extra health, fire resistance, and immunity to the Burning status compare to the Magicka sustain of the Altmer?

And speaking of Altmer, I'm wondering how the 5% damage reduction from their Spellcharge passive will synergize with the Deliberation passive from the Psijic Order skill line?

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

Red_Feather · January 2019

Give Dunmer a higher +Weapon Damage and +Magicka bonus and drop the +Spell Damage and +Stamina bonuses.
That way they can be competent as either magicka or stamina, in different ways, but that stat combo is also really good for hybrids.

Savos_Saren · January 2019

Why not give Dunmer a flat buff that would help any form that their hybrid may take (stamina or magicka based... DD, healer, or tank)?

Perhaps:

1357 to spell and physical penetration (this could help light, medium, or heavy armored builds)

or

2% healing done

or

Gain 100 magicka, 100 stamina, and 125 health when damaged with fire or poison. This effect can occur every 2 seconds.

or

Gain 100 magicka recovery, 100 stamina recovery, and 100 health recovery.

Just pretty much anything that can justify being put into a niche hybrid build... but still allow them to be viable.

Sinolai · January 2019

I think this thread had pretty good idea of how to deal with dunmer.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453692/rebalancing-ideas-for-upcoming-race-changes-to-pts#latest

Instead of 600hp they could be given increased status proc change. That would help with damage by proccing extra burning and concussions for magicka and extra poisons, diseases and bleeds(?) for stamina.

grannas211 · January 2019

Nah it’s fine. Everyone is set in their ways with it being Altmer vs Dunmer for Magicka but read the little blurb from the Devs. Also it matches up with the lore. They are a mix of spell and sword. Ironically they will be the highest stamina damage dealer.

Not everything needs to confirm the pve dummy meta.

mairwen85 · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Thing is they don't want races leading to builds focusing on one damage type... Apparently. So no ice mage, fire mage, lightning mage stemming from race passives.

So either a flat damage upgrade, or recovery numbers to equalize dunmer (e.g. Fire damage restores max resource) - - nothing more. Doesn't have to be bis, just level pegging.

How would dummer compare to altmer with more damage increase?

Slightly increased damage over a shorter period. It would be a burst option. Also allowing us to build out that capability by stacking sd/wd instead of max resource, optionally using more recovery/reduction glyphs.

Acrolas · January 2019

Soooooo...
Altmer magicka vampire or Dunmer stamina vampire or Dunmer magicka vampire?
Base class sorcerer.

Konstant_Tel_Necris · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:
0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.

0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

What could help situation?

I believe additional ulti gen on doing damage helps MagDK a lot, but also will bring to more to diversity to all roles and even will help hybrids.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

Actually tired of needing my Altmer for my main. Dunmer are way cooler, but I needed the very specific passives I used to get.

Those passives have been thrown out of line, but for dunmer they where thrown completely out of the picture for magic DD. They get less max stat, the same damage and no regen. The other stuff is kinda cool but just not viable when looking to max out a DD, meanwhile altmer is still swimming in magic regen and higher maxstat.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

kojou wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What if the gave more damage for spell and weapon to help hybrids and compassionate for not having sustain like others?

150 to Poison and 150 to Flame could be compelling.

Why does poison HAVE to be the stamina equivalent of fire damage? Its actually sad. Im a dunmer, I want fire not poison.

Not to mention this really highlights how with the classes damage types being so hard locked, dunmer was pretty much just by default a DK race.

ezio45 · January 2019

The issue is that dummer and highelf passives are too similar now.

before it was a toss up, if you were a sorc or warden you would likely go highelf, nightblade and dk would go darkelf. the majority of templars ik are highelf or breton but i havent met to many dps templars

losing the elemental passives really made these just to similar to the point were they are going to be competing with eachother wear one is ultimately always going to be better than the other.

I think it also narrowed the available options or at the very least just swapped darkelf for khajiit but i dont see khajiit making a good mag class. khajjit could find a nice place as a magblade

ccfeeling · January 2019

Dunmer is perfect , they can burst better than Redguard as a stam dps , I can't imagine LOL !

Developer wise ? No

Zacuel · January 2019

It's a Nerf to my main too.

How I see it. It's serving the needs of the many vs the needs of the few. I'm sure theres a lot more people who would rather not be compelled to play a dunmer mag build.

And now they won't be.

I however, loved the combination of being dunmer magdk.

It's a bummer.

GarnetFire17 · January 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds. It seems like a slight pve nerf but a pvp not a nerf or a buff but way to make some interesting builds.

"Slight PvE nerf" on a race that was easily 1-2k behind Altmers to begin with.

Think about the implications, the next time they deny you to join a trial.

I am not arguing that is BIS. it shouldn't be BIS. Dunmer wasn't BIS even before this. But it's dynamic its a race you can be pretty good at just about anything and that is obivously why they wanted to do go that way. For fun unique builds. It's not going to be hurt that badly to future changes to classes. Bc unlike altmer if your class get's nerfed on the magicka side you can respec to a stam build or vise versa.

Problem is that nobody wants fun unique builds in vet trials.

They don't all demand BIS builds. Some do some don't. As long as you have a minimum amount of Dps you are usually accepted and in most situations Dumner is going to do just fine.

JumpmanLane · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

What if the gave more damage for spell and weapon to help hybrids and compassionate for not having sustain like others?

I got sustain worked out. I want more damage on my MagDk. Instead Of 258 spell and weapon damage how about 300+ on dunmer (spell and weapon) and leaving alter at 258.

I run DW Destro in PvP. I weave light attacks in with every whip to get crusher and beserker going, gen ulti etc. let those lil light attacks hit a lil harder lol.

I’m happy as it is. I see it as a buff, given my playstyle.

Tasear · January 2019

Sinolai wrote: »

I think this thread had pretty good idea of how to deal with dunmer.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453692/rebalancing-ideas-for-upcoming-race-changes-to-pts#latest

Instead of 600hp they could be given increased status proc change. That would help with damage by proccing extra burning and concussions for magicka and extra poisons, diseases and bleeds(?) for stamina.

That's interesting

Faulgor · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:
0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.

0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

What could help situation?

Dmg stat increase from 258 to 325/340. Provides a burst argument.

That might push them too far ahead of Orcs for stam, though.

Dunmer hasn't anything unique going for them besides stats, i.e. there are no interesting resource mechanics or cost reductions going on. Their stats are ahead of comparable races for stam (Orcs, maybe Khajiit), but behind those for magicka (mainly Altmer). Whatever buffs they get, that should probably be considered.
For actual hybrids Khajiit would also be better, as you'd have to wear Pelinal's anyway, and there is no comparable set to equalize crit values. Maybe if Ruination added a bonus to Critical Damage instead of weapon/spell damage.

mairwen85 · January 2019

Faulgor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:
0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.

0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

What could help situation?

Dmg stat increase from 258 to 325/340. Provides a burst argument.

That might push them too far ahead of Orcs for stam, though.

Dunmer hasn't anything unique going for them besides stats, i.e. there are no interesting resource mechanics or cost reductions going on. Their stats are ahead of comparable races for stam (Orcs, maybe Khajiit), but behind those for magicka (mainly Altmer). Whatever buffs they get, that should probably be considered.
For actual hybrids Khajiit would also be better, as you'd have to wear Pelinal's anyway, and there is no comparable set to equalize crit values. Maybe if Ruination added a bonus to Critical Damage instead of weapon/spell damage.

I can see your argument on the additional dmg -- the proposed U21 changes really only mean Dunmer has to build for burst or sustain to be competitive. It means that for mag PvE, you'd build for penetration, spell damage and crit, or still push for max resource to back fill spell dmage with some increased recovery. Something like Spinners for pen (targetting 8-9k) to free up CP to reinvest into Elfborn, Staff expert, Elemental Expert, Master-at-Arms, something like necropotence for resource or Julianos/mother's sorrow (subtracting minimally from Thaumaturge for the same reasons as for Spinners) for raw power and crit, or lich/arch-mage/bloodthorn for sustain, enchants for recovery and cost reduction on infused jewelery, or arcane/infused with spell damage/bloodthirsty, and use a monster set like Zaan (for incremental damage increase per second) or Slimecraw (consistent 8% increase of damage output). Apprentice mundus (or mage/lover) to even out the stat you didn't stat up for with a 5pc.It's really not hard to imagine a usable build, not a millions miles away from what would usually be the goal -- just more considered for more factors at greater expense.

Dunmer has shocking sustain as is, so no change there

. But the increased flame damage did mean you could build specifically around fire and be competitive regardless. A minor boost to the dmg base by 50-75 points to compensate for that lost uniqueness wouldn't push the race beyond any other, just make it comparable because of no recovery -- because building for it specifically means even less damage or resource. Orc could viably receive a similar exception.

I wouldn't mind a flat recovery bonus, or (as I said), proccable recovery from fire damage.

Unless ZoS releases a spell sword or bard class that allows us to exploit both sides of these passives (as true hybrid by design) with adequate gear, then the reality for Dunmer is a PvP only race, cosmetic choice, or sub-optimal at every class.