Altmer vs Dummer

Tasear

Faulgor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

What could help situation?

Dmg stat increase from 258 to 325/340. Provides a burst argument.

That might push them too far ahead of Orcs for stam, though.

Dunmer hasn't anything unique going for them besides stats, i.e. there are no interesting resource mechanics or cost reductions going on. Their stats are ahead of comparable races for stam (Orcs, maybe Khajiit), but behind those for magicka (mainly Altmer). Whatever buffs they get, that should probably be considered.
For actual hybrids Khajiit would also be better, as you'd have to wear Pelinal's anyway, and there is no comparable set to equalize crit values. Maybe if Ruination added a bonus to Critical Damage instead of weapon/spell damage.

That really need some uniqueness.

jlmurra2

Dunmer should be able to produce the most damage with fire magicka, and fire enchantments. I would be content with the Altmer having the magicka advantage in all other Magicka applications, just let Dunmer have thier fire.

KhajiitFelix

Filthy n'wahs

ToRelax

The extra stamina and health you get on Dunmer as a magicka build doesn't compare to the efficiency of prismatic glyphs and purple food; why do people don't get this? If you don't play stam or hybrid, it's never going to be as good as Altmer.
In PvP the fire resistance (or more specifically, the burning immunity) becomes relevant against magicka DKs, but otherwise the Altmer's regen passive is much better.

JumpmanLane

mairwen85 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

What could help situation?

Dmg stat increase from 258 to 325/340. Provides a burst argument.

That might push them too far ahead of Orcs for stam, though.

Dunmer hasn't anything unique going for them besides stats, i.e. there are no interesting resource mechanics or cost reductions going on. Their stats are ahead of comparable races for stam (Orcs, maybe Khajiit), but behind those for magicka (mainly Altmer). Whatever buffs they get, that should probably be considered.
For actual hybrids Khajiit would also be better, as you'd have to wear Pelinal's anyway, and there is no comparable set to equalize crit values. Maybe if Ruination added a bonus to Critical Damage instead of weapon/spell damage.

I can see your argument on the additional dmg -- the proposed U21 changes really only mean Dunmer has to build for burst or sustain to be competitive. It means that for mag PvE, you'd build for penetration, spell damage and crit, or still push for max resource to back fill spell dmage with some increased recovery. Something like Spinners for pen (targetting 8-9k) to free up CP to reinvest into Elfborn, Staff expert, Elemental Expert, Master-at-Arms, something like necropotence for resource or Julianos/mother's sorrow (subtracting minimally from Thaumaturge for the same reasons as for Spinners) for raw power and crit, or lich/arch-mage/bloodthorn for sustain, enchants for recovery and cost reduction on infused jewelery, or arcane/infused with spell damage/bloodthirsty, and use a monster set like Zaan (for incremental damage increase per second) or Slimecraw (consistent 8% increase of damage output). Apprentice mundus (or mage/lover) to even out the stat you didn't stat up for with a 5pc.It's really not hard to imagine a usable build, not a millions miles away from what would usually be the goal -- just more considered for more factors at greater expense.

Dunmer has shocking sustain as is, so no change there . But the increased flame damage did mean you could build specifically around fire and be competitive regardless. A minor boost to the dmg base by 50-75 points to compensate for that lost uniqueness wouldn't push the race beyond any other, just make it comparable because of no recovery -- because building for it specifically means even less damage or resource. Orc could viably receive a similar exception.

I wouldn't mind a flat recovery bonus, or (as I said), proccable recovery from fire damage.

Unless ZoS releases a spell sword or bard class that allows us to exploit both sides of these passives (as true hybrid by design) with adequate gear, then the reality for Dunmer is a PvP only race, cosmetic choice, or sub-optimal at every class.

^This!

SirSilver

My understanding was that they did not want to pigeonhole which race you need. With the changes Altmer is #1 magdd race. I feel that the +600 health bonus should be removed and replaced with some additional damage. It could be a flat bonus of +100 spell power, or +100 power to an element that procs off a light attack or skill of the type of weapon you use, the buff would be active for 10 seconds and would have a 10 second cool down.

For example, inferno staff with elemental blockade procs +100 fire damage power for 10 seconds. Or poison injection procs +100 poison damage power for 10 seconds.

The change would enable hybrid builds still, however sustain would remain an an issue.

Doing this would also ensure that there is no cut and dry best race for magdd. Though this could be an issue on the stam side.

ToRelax

SirSilver wrote: »

My understanding was that they did not want to pigeonhole which race you need. With the changes Altmer is #1 magdd race. I feel that the +600 health bonus should be removed and replaced with some additional damage. It could be a flat bonus of +100 spell power, or +100 power to an element that procs off a light attack or skill of the type of weapon you use, the buff would be active for 10 seconds and would have a 10 second cool down.

For example, inferno staff with elemental blockade procs +100 fire damage power for 10 seconds. Or poison injection procs +100 poison damage power for 10 seconds.

The change would enable hybrid builds still, however sustain would remain an an issue.

Doing this would also ensure that there is no cut and dry best race for magdd. Though this could be an issue on the stam side.

Such a change would help any build specialized on a single damage type, which hybrids generally aren't.

SirSilver

ToRelax wrote: »

SirSilver wrote: »

My understanding was that they did not want to pigeonhole which race you need. With the changes Altmer is #1 magdd race. I feel that the +600 health bonus should be removed and replaced with some additional damage. It could be a flat bonus of +100 spell power, or +100 power to an element that procs off a light attack or skill of the type of weapon you use, the buff would be active for 10 seconds and would have a 10 second cool down.

For example, inferno staff with elemental blockade procs +100 fire damage power for 10 seconds. Or poison injection procs +100 poison damage power for 10 seconds.

The change would enable hybrid builds still, however sustain would remain an an issue.

Doing this would also ensure that there is no cut and dry best race for magdd. Though this could be an issue on the stam side.

Such a change would help any build specialized on a single damage type, which hybrids generally aren't.

It would still be more beneficial to a hybrid build than the planned 600 health. This game is more focused on damage. Right now the dd builds normally don't have survival issues, or if a player does they can spec their own health points or use the triune to get more health and be in a better position.

Savos_Saren

SirSilver wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

SirSilver wrote: »

My understanding was that they did not want to pigeonhole which race you need. With the changes Altmer is #1 magdd race. I feel that the +600 health bonus should be removed and replaced with some additional damage. It could be a flat bonus of +100 spell power, or +100 power to an element that procs off a light attack or skill of the type of weapon you use, the buff would be active for 10 seconds and would have a 10 second cool down.

For example, inferno staff with elemental blockade procs +100 fire damage power for 10 seconds. Or poison injection procs +100 poison damage power for 10 seconds.

The change would enable hybrid builds still, however sustain would remain an an issue.

Doing this would also ensure that there is no cut and dry best race for magdd. Though this could be an issue on the stam side.

Such a change would help any build specialized on a single damage type, which hybrids generally aren't.

It would still be more beneficial to a hybrid build than the planned 600 health. This game is more focused on damage. Right now the dd builds normally don't have survival issues, or if a player does they can spec their own health points or use the triune to get more health and be in a better position.

It could just be a flat:

"Adds 100 weapon or spell damage to a target with an active status effect (burning, chilled, concussed, poisoned, or diseased)."

Status effects don't last very long- so it wouldn't be a constant 100 point damage increase. It only marginally closes the gap between Dunmer and Altmer. It would allow for the Dunmer to have a slight burst and it would benefit both stamina and magicka builds. It's a good hybrid passive.

HowlKimchi

Dunmer's current proposed passives dont fit with ESO's min/maxing both in endgame pvp and pve. literally every class is better than dunmer at endgame because hybrids dont really exist. Sure there are some in pvp but most of the builds I see make use of Pelinal's where you are rewarded better if you go all in on weapon damage (easier to build up).

I will be fine if instead of having a measly health bonus, they still retain their niche of dealing the most fire damage.

mxxo

So it´s Khajiit vs Dunmer now?

Olupajmibanan

Back in the days it was Altmer vs Dunmer = Sustain vs Dmg

Now it is Redguard vs Orc Vs Dunmer = max sustain vs moderate damage and sustain vs max damage

Reaper_00

binho wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Any post with "PvP" in its content should be ignored. No matter what the change is, they whine first, and whine later.

The thing is, in PVP you can get a group regardless of the class you're using... But try doing vet trials and you'll see people are not that understanding

Well the thing is in PVE the things you're fighting don't actually have racial passives so the only thing affecting you there is elitism with trial groups and not an actual game mechanic. Where as in PVP the things you're fighting most of the time do have racial passives so balancing is actually a lot more important there.

zaria

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds. It seems like a slight pve nerf but a pvp not a nerf or a buff but way to make some interesting builds.

Not hybrid as so just that you can do both stamina or magic build.

Now something I don't understand is why Dunmer is ahead of Khajiit for stamina builds but behind in magic ones?
Is crit more effective for magic?

SirSilver

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds. It seems like a slight pve nerf but a pvp not a nerf or a buff but way to make some interesting builds.

The problem is not so much whether or not it is a nerf or a buff, but rather that the previous comparison between races no longer exists. The initial posts said they were trying to even out the races, but they instead ensured one would be better than the other in all magdd situations, and it appears that most content is more about how much damage you can deal, or at the least makes the content easier or gives you a better score.

I know that you will still be able to complete all content no matter which race you pick. I think it needs to be set up to be more situationally dependent on which mag dps is better. Removing the health increase and switching it for some additional damage would ensure that trade offs still exist.

CrimsonGTX

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Dunmer should be able to produce the most damage with fire magicka, and fire enchantments. I would be content with the Altmer having the magicka advantage in all other Magicka applications, just let Dunmer have thier fire.

No Dunmer shouldn't be able to produce the most fire damage. They should be slightly ahead or tied with Altmer in destruction magic, which is what the spell damage at 258 is there for. In ESO Dunmer have only been looked at as a magicka spec'd race, when realistically they should also be equally competitive as a stam race. ESO have confused/condition a lot of people to this "Dunmer only have talent in fire damage" mindset.

People who are Dunmer fans should be asking for maybe a value change in damage by 10(maybe). It's obvious that ZOS wanted to eliminate such spec from racial passives which I understand.

StarOfElyon

Altmer get higher DPS but Dunmer get more health. It's like the balance each other out.

Savos_Saren

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Altmer get higher DPS but Dunmer get more health. It's like the balance each other out.

Then Dunmer need enough health to balance out the damage the Altmer can do. With the regen passives and extra magicka pool- Altmer can spec toward more damage. Dunmer, however, have to give up speccing toward damage to get more sustain.

Thus, in PVP- an Altmer has greater damage potential than a Dunmer can put out. 500 health is miniscule compared to that damage potential.

ToRelax

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Altmer get higher DPS but Dunmer get more health. It's like the balance each other out.

You know what you can do when you want some more health in your build at the cost of your main stat? Put on a prismatic glyph. You know what that also does? Give you stamina. You know what does the same, but worse? Dunmer.
To top it off, even when you did go for a hybrid, and so run all prismatic glyphs, the health would be almost entirely pointless because with hybrid options like prismatic glyphs providing it, it becomes one of the weakest stats for hybrids.

merpins

The reason altmer and dunmer were comparable before was due to the fire damage bonus of the dunmer. For a magicka build, they aren't even comparable anymore: a DPS used to choose dunmer over altmer due to the slight increase in damage, but now that the damage is the same, no one will use dunmer aside from those that don't care about damage. They used to be good at one thing, but now it is sub-par at two things. It's not bad, but it's no longer an option people will consider since altmer is just a better dunmer now.

JumpmanLane

I think a lot of people are forgetting about stuff like block casting on a MagDk.

I also think fighting practice dummies and parses have very little to do with what goes on in PvP.

Just because the magicka based damage an altmer and Dunmer can put out is equal doesn’t automatically make an altmer the best choice for that class. Without an execute a MagDk has to do more in combat than out damage everyone the fight.

StarOfElyon

I'm excited to see what builds people create because I'm interested to see if things will be as bad as people believe they will be.

Konstant_Tel_Necris

mxxo wrote: »

So it´s Khajiit vs Dunmer now?

You know how it will end eventually lol.

Dracane

People forget that even DDs need health and stamina. Dunmer get a good amount of that, while Altmer has no versatility.
The devs have presented their intended race hierarchy to us and it does make sense lore wise. There is no way Dunmer should be better at pure magic potential than Altmer. The difference between the races are small damage wise and each have their own benefits and drawbacks.

I think Dunmer should get a lower spell damage bonus and instead get a significant fire damage bonus. A bonus that surpasses 258 spell damage by a good amount. This way they are without a question the best with fire magic, but still not the best all around.

mairwen85

I agree, dunmer shouldn't be the best. Nobody is advocating that. The racial passives right now in U21 are the most balanced they've been for all races, but they do need fine tuning. Especially bosmer, orc and dunmer. I've presented my arguments in this thread and several others... After PTS cycle, it'll be interesting to see the practical results, and what tweaks are presented to ZOS, and ultimately what they do with them.

Dracane

mairwen85 wrote: »

I agree, dunmer shouldn't be the best. Nobody is advocating that. The racial passives right now in U21 are the most balanced they've been for all races, but they do need fine tuning. Especially bosmer, orc and dunmer. I've presented my arguments in this thread and several others... After PTS cycle, it'll be interesting to see the practical results, and what tweaks are presented to ZOS, and ultimately what they do with them.

Yep. The thing is, we got used to a very overtuned dunmer version. Dunmer have never been this magicka oriented in any TES game before. They have never been a contender for the best mage. It always was between Altmer and Bretons. Dunmer received too many buffs and we got used to it.

Dunmer is really where they should be now. Take some spell damage and give them more fire damage in return and it's good.

mairwen85

Dracane wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I agree, dunmer shouldn't be the best. Nobody is advocating that. The racial passives right now in U21 are the most balanced they've been for all races, but they do need fine tuning. Especially bosmer, orc and dunmer. I've presented my arguments in this thread and several others... After PTS cycle, it'll be interesting to see the practical results, and what tweaks are presented to ZOS, and ultimately what they do with them.

Yep. The thing is, we got used to a very overtuned dunmer version. Dunmer have never been this magicka oriented in any TES game before. They have never been a contender for the best mage. It always was between Altmer and Bretons. Dunmer received too many buffs and we got used to it.

Dunmer is really where they should be now. Take some spell damage and give them more fire damage in return and it's good.

I personally think an increase in spell/weapon damage (~50) or some recovery mechanic such as fire abilities restore X resource. That really is all that's needed.

Lord_Eomer

Vahrokh wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

I understand they thought but wouldn't that bring issue up making race nich for fire builds again? What about if they had cost reduction with a skill line? What would make them competitive when thinking altmer or dummer?

What's wrong with Dunmer being niche for fire builds?

Maybe someone will come up with a PVP build that uses Dunmer as it is now, but in PvE the passives will not be very compelling after the patch.

That I play a Dunmer mag sorc and TODAY it's a fire build. After patch, it is just trash.

Races should not be limited to specific build, Fire damage need to go anyway or else Dunmer will be MDK puppet only!

Lord_Eomer

kojou wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What if the gave more damage for spell and weapon to help hybrids and compassionate for not having sustain like others?

150 to Poison and 150 to Flame could be compelling.

No Disease/Poison or Fire/Lighting damage bonus, Thanks to ZOS for removing limited gameplay options in races.

Cloudless

CrimsonGTX wrote: »

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Dunmer should be able to produce the most damage with fire magicka, and fire enchantments. I would be content with the Altmer having the magicka advantage in all other Magicka applications, just let Dunmer have thier fire.

No Dunmer shouldn't be able to produce the most fire damage. They should be slightly ahead or tied with Altmer in destruction magic, which is what the spell damage at 258 is there for. In ESO Dunmer have only been looked at as a magicka spec'd race, when realistically they should also be equally competitive as a stam race. ESO have confused/condition a lot of people to this "Dunmer only have talent in fire damage" mindset.

People who are Dunmer fans should be asking for maybe a value change in damage by 10(maybe). It's obvious that ZOS wanted to eliminate such spec from racial passives which I understand.

Thank you. This whole "Dunmer should have fire damage" nonsense was never part of how Dunmer's racial bonuses were handled in previous TES games, people who keep arguing about it are really just salty mDKs wanting their toys back and using the lore as an excuse.

Edit: I'm glad about these changes and yes, I do have Dunmer characters: a magicka DK, a stamina DK, a magicka Sorcerer and a magicka Nightblade. Once the update hits, I'll still be playing them and having fun with them.