Altmer vs Dummer

Tasear

I see a lot of fighting about how racial changes are going to effective comparing between the two. So bringing us all together on forums to talk about it. Is there a issue with either race with coming changes?

Also if you want to talk about it more actively or aren't a member of forums here's a discord invite to topic https://discord.gg/9UafDmq

mairwen85

See post from another thread.

mairwen85 wrote: »

I can understand the reasoning behind making Dunmer an even more flexible race for stam or mag -- in fact, I kind of like the approach of even bonuses on either pool. However, the current concept will result in a race that can do either equally, but excels in neither where other races still do.

Dunmer:
+1250 resource
+258 Weapon and Spell Damage
+2310 Flame resistsance
+600 health

Should the damage/sustain margin decrease be that great for what amounts to a minor increase in survivability -- especially as the previous edge on flame damage is now lost (the only real gain previously for sacrificed sustain)?

Setting the resource passive to 1750 is a more realistic value = minor sacrifice to sustain for a minor gain in survivability.

On the other hand, the only logical reasoning for the gimped sustain otherwise is the design concept that Dunmers sacrifice sustain for burst damage, in which case resource sacrifice should be balanced with greater weapon/spell damage:

+1250 max resource
+330 Weapon and Spell Damage*

OR

+1500 resource
+300 Weapon and Spell Damage*

Alternatively
+1250 resource
+258 Weapon and Spell Damage and +4% fire damage

*NB: +/- equal dmg without equivalent recovery bonus or procced sustain (per other classes)

Altmer
2000 = 200 :: 200 + 258 = 458
Dunmer
258 + 75 = 333
1250 = 125 :: 125 + 333 = 458

kojou

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

Tasear

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

I understand they thought but wouldn't that bring issue up making race nich for fire builds again? What about if they had cost reduction with a skill line? What would make them competitive when thinking altmer or dummer?

SaintSubwayy

Altmer is better on every class when these changes go live as they are.

Dunmer cant actually be compared to Altmer anymore, since it got completly changed to a Hybrid Race while altmer still is all about magic.

Dunmer was only ahaed by alot on mDK's on other clases dunmer was jsut slightly better than highelves, which had the benefit of better sustain.

Now Highelves are even better at sustain, while dunmers lost their edge in DMG.

so Altmer > Dunmer on any Magickaclass

mairwen85

Tasear wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

I understand they thought but wouldn't that bring issue up making race nich for fire builds again? What about if they had cost reduction with a skill line? What would make them competitive when thinking altmer or dummer?

It's either damage or sustain. The choice should be the same one as now. Do we sacrifice sustain for damage, or damage for sustain? If not fire damage, the up front damage by increasing the 258 to 325.

With the proposed changes the choice is sacrifice damage and sustain for barely noticeable survivability, or sacrifice negligible health increase for damage and sustain. Hmmm -- not really a hard choice is it?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Altmers don’t have black hair

SaintSubwayy

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Altmers don’t have black hair

wear a Wig you styler

kojou

Tasear wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

I understand they thought but wouldn't that bring issue up making race nich for fire builds again? What about if they had cost reduction with a skill line? What would make them competitive when thinking altmer or dummer?

What's wrong with Dunmer being niche for fire builds?

Maybe someone will come up with a PVP build that uses Dunmer as it is now, but in PvE the passives will not be very compelling after the patch.

Tasear

kojou wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

I understand they thought but wouldn't that bring issue up making race nich for fire builds again? What about if they had cost reduction with a skill line? What would make them competitive when thinking altmer or dummer?

What's wrong with Dunmer being niche for fire builds?

Maybe someone will come up with a PVP build that uses Dunmer as it is now, but in PvE the passives will not be very compelling after the patch.

That's why Dev notes say in regards to design changes.

GarnetFire17

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds. It seems like a slight pve nerf but a pvp not a nerf or a buff but way to make some interesting builds.

Daedric_NB_187

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

I would like to see that too. I'm pretty much in the same boat. I made my MagDK a Dunmer specifically for the added fire damage. This is a nerf for me. /sigh

mairwen85

Tasear wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

I understand they thought but wouldn't that bring issue up making race nich for fire builds again? What about if they had cost reduction with a skill line? What would make them competitive when thinking altmer or dummer?

What's wrong with Dunmer being niche for fire builds?

Maybe someone will come up with a PVP build that uses Dunmer as it is now, but in PvE the passives will not be very compelling after the patch.

That's why Dev notes say in regards to design changes.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Many bonuses provided from races had narrow application or requirements, such as specific damage types or proc conditions. For example, Orc’s have a damage bonus that only applied to melee attacks, instead of all physical attacks.

They do. They also say:

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Some races provided far more mathematical combat power than others.
The delta between some races is noticeably high, leaving some races feeling left behind while others feel too good to pass up from a combat perspective.

So all the more reason to raise that 258 for Dunmer so the 'Delta' between is not so great.

Bargonauts

I personally prefer the way of how it looks in live - Dunmer and Altmer are very close on basically every class besides magDK (where Dunmer is the clear winner). Having good sustain but less damage on one race (Altmer) while the other having less sustain but more damage (Dunmer) was, IMO, a good choice to make. And again, the difference wasn't too huge.

Dunmer originally became the stronk PVE race that it is due to the Summerset changes emphasizing light attacks over other forms of damage in PVE - and since fire gives direct damage, Dunmer was the way to go. The gap between the two was still quite small, however, and you could do great on both races. Now the gap between them is Huge - while other races have picked up the pace, Dunmer is left in the dust. :+(

I'm quite disappointed with the Dunmer nerfs so far - IMO the hybrid race pick is quite interesting, but hybrid damage dealers don't work out in PVE. Dunmer is a jack of two trades and not great at either of them. I'd like to see them bring back the Fire damage bonus for Dunmer, and maybe turn that 600 HP into a mag bonus to help out.

Even if you bring back some extra fire damage, it'll still probably be weaker than it is live - for PVE, anyways - simply because hybrids don't end up working that well.

mairwen85

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

GarnetFire17

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

Vahrokh

kojou wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see about 150 additional spell damage for fire damage in the last passive.

At this point it looks like my DK will be an Altmer next patch.

I understand they thought but wouldn't that bring issue up making race nich for fire builds again? What about if they had cost reduction with a skill line? What would make them competitive when thinking altmer or dummer?

What's wrong with Dunmer being niche for fire builds?

Maybe someone will come up with a PVP build that uses Dunmer as it is now, but in PvE the passives will not be very compelling after the patch.

That I play a Dunmer mag sorc and TODAY it's a fire build. After patch, it is just trash.

Vahrokh

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds. It seems like a slight pve nerf but a pvp not a nerf or a buff but way to make some interesting builds.

"Slight PvE nerf" on a race that was easily 1-2k behind Altmers to begin with.

Think about the implications, the next time they deny you to join a trial.

mairwen85

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

Like I said, Pvp has options. Pve less so. Dark deal is no good for pve dps... That cast time is a killer.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Carbonised

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

Tasear

Carbonised wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

What could help situation?

Facefister

Any post with "PvP" in its content should be ignored. No matter what the change is, they whine first, and whine later.

mairwen85

Tasear wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

What could help situation?

Dmg stat increase from 258 to 325/340. Provides a burst argument.

Facefister

Besides, dunmer were always allrounder lore wise. The new racials reflect that even more now. How much are they behind? 1%? 2%?

CrimsonGTX

Honestly the battle for top magicka races should've always been between Altmer and Bretons. With that said Dunmer should have a boost in their magicka destruction, so I'm guessing the Ruination passive is the devs way of achieving that? I don't know how effective it will be, but if Dunmer lands slightly behind both High Elf and Breton while also being valuable as a Stam DPS...the Devs got it right.

GarnetFire17

Vahrokh wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds. It seems like a slight pve nerf but a pvp not a nerf or a buff but way to make some interesting builds.

"Slight PvE nerf" on a race that was easily 1-2k behind Altmers to begin with.

Think about the implications, the next time they deny you to join a trial.

I am not arguing that is BIS. it shouldn't be BIS. Dunmer wasn't BIS even before this. But it's dynamic its a race you can be pretty good at just about anything and that is obivously why they wanted to do go that way. For fun unique builds. It's not going to be hurt that badly to future changes to classes. Bc unlike altmer if your class get's nerfed on the magicka side you can respec to a stam build or vise versa.

GarnetFire17

Vahrokh wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds. It seems like a slight pve nerf but a pvp not a nerf or a buff but way to make some interesting builds.

"Slight PvE nerf" on a race that was easily 1-2k behind Altmers to begin with.

Think about the implications, the next time they deny you to join a trial.

so"? that already happens, that is why they are guilds that aren't so *** about such things.

MartiniDaniels

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds. It seems like a slight pve nerf but a pvp not a nerf or a buff but way to make some interesting builds.

"Slight PvE nerf" on a race that was easily 1-2k behind Altmers to begin with.

Think about the implications, the next time they deny you to join a trial.

I am not arguing that is BIS. it shouldn't be BIS. Dunmer wasn't BIS even before this. But it's dynamic its a race you can be pretty good at just about anything and that is obivously why they wanted to do go that way. For fun unique builds. It's not going to be hurt that badly to future changes to classes. Bc unlike altmer if your class get's nerfed on the magicka side you can respec to a stam build or vise versa.

Problem is that nobody wants fun unique builds in vet trials.

MartiniDaniels

mairwen85 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

I don't know. I don't see it as Hybrid so much. you get 2500 total resources and altmer only gets 2000 running a dumner stam sorc that extra magicka is nice for crit surge and/or streak. the complainers seem to be the ones wanting to cling to their current mag builds.

But damage scales off max resource -- the class is equal across both resource pools; that 2500 is split down the middle. This means what is true for mag is also true for stam. Dunmer has:

• 0 stamina recovery bonuses, less stamina than other races, not enough base weapon damage to compensate.
• 0 Magicka recovery bonuses, less magicka than other races not enough base spell damage to compensate.

MagSorc has extra stam to break free or roll one more time, maybe -- that's it right there. That's the decider for magsorc!
Now what about stamsorc? Why choose Dunmer over another race?

PvP, Dunmer has some options open still. PvE, not really. There's only cosmetic reasons -- that would be enough for me normally, but not when I've put 4 years of effort in.

Reguard might be better than dunmer, but if your are redguard would sorc be the best class. You want that extra magicka and damage bonus for utilizing dark deal. Redguard has enough stamina it doesn't need any dark deal. But its not going to be able to streak cast ward then dark deal.

OK. So what stam class does Dunmer now have incentive vs other races?

And which mag versions?

Magicka? None. Dunmer are outclassed by khajiit, altmer and breton for all mag specs, including their signature spec, the magdk. ZOS completely ruined mag specs for dunmers, in favour of buffing them in stamina specs.

What could help situation?

Dmg stat increase from 258 to 325/340. Provides a burst argument.

Well, there were better lore based options like those additional 150 damage to fire attacks. Which will have good synergy with DK which is already best class for hybrids.

Tasear

What if the gave more damage for spell and weapon to help hybrids and compassionate for not having sustain like others?

kojou

Tasear wrote: »

What if the gave more damage for spell and weapon to help hybrids and compassionate for not having sustain like others?

150 to Poison and 150 to Flame could be compelling.