Savos_Saren wrote: »Facefister wrote: »You can blame PvP for that, every "homogenizing" move by any dev is an attempt to balance PvP.Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »OH man here come all the "BUT MUH POINTS" cries.
My beautiful fake, meaningless, vertical progression treadmill points!!!!!1!!!!
What will I ever do if I can't log in when the new update hits and increase my elemental damage by 0.002%
How will I feel useful to my raid guild?
You are all on a treadmill. While you happily invested more and more points into damage and sustain. ZOS was busy nerfing Helping Hands passive from DK, Leeching strikes passive from nightblade, dark deal from sorc. Making class abilities more homogenized and less unique, all to pay for the power gained by the champion system.
You were getting buffs from one system and then getting your class skills nerfed from the other and some of you still want more fake imaginary points. Im sure ZOS can implement something to spend your points on that doesn't destabilize the game.
Because of the imbalance that the cp system created...
CP didn't always exist. And the game was imbalanced before it.
People are still going to want some form of vertical progression to separate a character that's 4+ years old vs a freshly created character. You want your main to feel legendary.
LiquidPony wrote: »This is one of the worst decisions they could have made.
The problem with the CP system wasn't so much the power creep, BUT was the fact that ZOS didn't reinstitute soft caps on all our stats to compensate for that power creep and force us to make decisions on where to spend those points.
What's the point for any one at cap, to bother buying the new chapter or to continue playing? There isn't any. Nothing but wasted XP that could have gone to something.
CP's with their power creep, would actually help people like me, who are disabled and have to use certain non-Xbox controllers because they are smaller in order to play on PC, to increase and be able to do harder content and continue to improve, despite not being able to animation cancel reliably or hold a perfect rotation.
So now, no improvement, despite hours and hours of playing and events, and what not. So then, what's the point?? If I can't improve either through raised stats so I can do more end game content, then there is no reason for me to bother buying the new content, or to pay for a sub, or really even to log on daily.
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno
This is a bad decision. Very bad decision. The only way you are going to FIX CP's is to bring back SOFT CAPS!!! Yep, there are going to be a lot of end game and pvp players that aren't going to like that. BUT it is the only way you are going to be able to lower that ceiling you kept talking about earlier without obliterating he middle ground (like you've been doing), while also raising the floor.
These changes are NOT hurting your end game elite players. These changes are not hurting your lowest floor players. They are hurting your mid-ranged players who find normal dungeons and trials too easy, but some Vet Trials and most Vet HM too hard to complete or even be considered to be allowed to participate in because they don't meet the magick number DPS.
If you don't want player pulling 50K DPS, then put a god damned SOFT CAP on it!!!!! There, problem solved.. It forces them to use their CP in another spot other than DPS.
STOP punishing everyone because a few people are complaining about the power creep!!!!
People want to complain that CP is making them too powerful in overland content... create an on/off toggle. Make CP a PVE thing only.... can't have it in Cyrodiil.
ZOS needs to stop looking at how END GAME elite players are doing in this game and making decisions around them. They need to pay more attention to what the middle ground players are doing, especially those who fall in the GAP of being left out of things when decisions like this are made.
We already have soft caps. Soft caps are diminishing returns. CP have (severe) diminishing returns. That hasn't solved anything.
No... dimishing returns don't work as well as soft caps on our actual stats.
Make is so that you can only get a MAX of 35k mag or stam, 4.5k max mag or stam dmg, 2k max recovery and hit overall damage with a max 45kDPS.
The only thing with a real soft cap in this game at the moment are resistances. Capped at 33.4k or something close to that.LiquidPony wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »This is a disaster. The arguments for and against the CP system are irrelevant. What matters is that the developers appear to be RENEGING on a key feature of the game for longtime players.
If ZOS rolls back the CP system, they will be cheating players out of hundreds of hours of their life. How can we ever trust ZOS again? My time is valuable to me. I'll never invest in a new system if they are just going to steal my progression.
Didn't they "steal your progression" when they nerfed the hell out of CP with Morrowind?
Didn't they "steal your progression" when they nixed the VR system and switched to CP?
Didn't they steal our progression when they nerfed Sunderflame and NMG into the ground? I bet I spent 100+ hours farming Sunderflame daggers, and across my 2 accounts I bet I've got 5+ full sets of gold NMG and 20+ gold NMG weapons all collecting dust now.
Y'all are just afraid of change.
Yes, they have gutted our progression several times already..... and guess what, a hell of a lot of end game players quit. Many Raiding guilds imploded because they are sick and tired of having their progression fracked with.
Why do you think they are now running so many damn events? They know it's the only way to boost their numbers to get players back because they screwed up hard!
The players they hurt with those changes were not the players that needed to be brought in line to lower the ceiling. They actually ended up hurting the players who are in the middle who are on the cusp of being able to achieve harder content and needed the progression improvement. But instead, ZOS killed their progression outright and created an even wider gap between the Middle Tiered players by flattening them into the group while the Top Tier Ceiling level players pulled ever fuller forward.
It shows that ZOS has no concept of the consequences of their actual changes, and they need to STOP listening to just the ELITE end game Math players and listen to those in the middle most affected by these changes!!
Ok, go ahead and remove CP's. However, (ESPECIALLY in PvP) there has to be sweeping changes to gear, resource pools and sustain. Otherwise an enormous amount of builds suddenly become useless? Nah, I'm sorry. This is a very bad move imo.
I don't wanna hear about "well git good etc." That's not an acceptable retort when you've played CP campaigns since they came out. They will have to convert or do something different with all the points we've earned so far.
Just as an example. I have an Ice warden wearing Iceheart, Winterborn, and Torugs. He's fine in CP. But even then, the build isn't particularly ideal for resource pool and regen. Put him in no-cp? It pretty much can't be played. Not enough sustain, not enough resources, not enough resists. The build was based on certain proc's and CP's holding it up. Now I have other toons of course. I can change out a set or something to try and compete in no-cp. But again, some builds that people busted their tails for, become suddenly obsolete. NOT good, not by a long shot.
Another example. Just last night I was doing vMA. As a PvP'er I'm not happy about having to do this, but I'd like to get some of those weapons. Can you imagine vMA in it's current state withOUT using CP's? How about hard mode vet trails? Slowing down CP's is one thing, but when ya all talk about removing them from the game, your not seeing the big picture.
MLGProPlayer wrote: »Facefister wrote: »You can blame PvP for that, every "homogenizing" move by any dev is an attempt to balance PvP.Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »OH man here come all the "BUT MUH POINTS" cries.
My beautiful fake, meaningless, vertical progression treadmill points!!!!!1!!!!
What will I ever do if I can't log in when the new update hits and increase my elemental damage by 0.002%
How will I feel useful to my raid guild?
You are all on a treadmill. While you happily invested more and more points into damage and sustain. ZOS was busy nerfing Helping Hands passive from DK, Leeching strikes passive from nightblade, dark deal from sorc. Making class abilities more homogenized and less unique, all to pay for the power gained by the champion system.
You were getting buffs from one system and then getting your class skills nerfed from the other and some of you still want more fake imaginary points. Im sure ZOS can implement something to spend your points on that doesn't destabilize the game.
Because of the imbalance that the cp system created...
It's not even a PvP issue. CP point's have ruined PvE too. They've trivialised the majority's of content which used to be fun and challenging
Lack of character progression and forced main story group content are such negatives that they have completely overridden the man positives that I saw announced. I had just recently purchased a new 6 month sub but have now taken it off auto renew. I'll reevaluate in 4 months but if all of this comes to fruition then I'll just play some other games until the next TES drop. I have no desire to play a group action-adventure game whether set in the Elder Scrolls universe or not.
You are aware this is an MMO an not a single player?
MLGProPlayer wrote: »Facefister wrote: »You can blame PvP for that, every "homogenizing" move by any dev is an attempt to balance PvP.Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »OH man here come all the "BUT MUH POINTS" cries.
My beautiful fake, meaningless, vertical progression treadmill points!!!!!1!!!!
What will I ever do if I can't log in when the new update hits and increase my elemental damage by 0.002%
How will I feel useful to my raid guild?
You are all on a treadmill. While you happily invested more and more points into damage and sustain. ZOS was busy nerfing Helping Hands passive from DK, Leeching strikes passive from nightblade, dark deal from sorc. Making class abilities more homogenized and less unique, all to pay for the power gained by the champion system.
You were getting buffs from one system and then getting your class skills nerfed from the other and some of you still want more fake imaginary points. Im sure ZOS can implement something to spend your points on that doesn't destabilize the game.
Because of the imbalance that the cp system created...
It's not even a PvP issue. CP point's have ruined PvE too. They've trivialised the majority's of content which used to be fun and challenging
I would say it's not just a PvP issue. 100% agree with your view on it's affect on PvE, but it's definitely an issue in PvP too. I know people will say just play no cp PvP then but last I checked the no cp campaign on my server is completely empty. And yes there are battlegrounds for no cp but that scratches a different itch.
Emma_Overload wrote: »This is a disaster. The arguments for and against the CP system are irrelevant. What matters is that the developers appear to be RENEGING on a key feature of the game for longtime players.
If ZOS rolls back the CP system, they will be cheating players out of hundreds of hours of their life. How can we ever trust ZOS again? My time is valuable to me. I'll never invest in a new system if they are just going to steal my progression.
shieeeet, now it is harder to kill bad player on cyrodiil if cp is removed
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »An MMO with no form of progression is an MMO that will not hold my attention much longer. Simple as that. The game will truly feel like a chore to play rather than something to do out of enjoyment. This game is turning more and more into a virtual world social networking platform. People already sit idle in Craglorn, Cyrodiil, etc. just to socialize. Now there is less reason to actually play the game. GG!
What feels like a chore is constantly grinding up meaningless champion points. Regrinding all the guild skills and passives on every new character and build I make.
I never get bored in this game. There is always some crazy build i'm thinking of that I want to make. The part that makes me want to quit is when there is a huge unnecessary grind wall between me and the outcome I want.
If I could easily just gear and level all my characters i'd have so many cool builds to play. People that need some silly point system to guide them seem to lack any imagination. Grinding up points is the thing you do before you get to have fun, not the fun in itself.
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »What feels like a chore is constantly grinding up meaningless champion points.
Does this only apply to the next update or is it ongoing? Do we need to be enlightened anymore?
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »I hope all you progression people saw ZOS's new post on Racial Changes;
They went and did exactly what I predicted they would do: They removed ALL max stat % Racial Passives and replaced them with static values.
@VanyelMohr @Diminish
Perhaps I'm being too flippant and hyperbolic in this thread. Here is a concrete example of why I say Vertical Progression is essentially a "Treadmill" or Meaningless
So lets say you have an endgame "progression" PvE magicka DPS character (breton or high elf) with 35 -40K max magicka.
I will use one of Alcasts builds as an example because they are pretty uniform across the board for magicka. (Siroria/spell strat)
That build has about 39,600 magicka. Your breton or High elf had a 10% max magicka perk from racial passives.
Without this magicka perk (39600/1.1) you would have 36,000 magicka. That's a 4000 magicka loss. If you add ZOS's flat rate value back in, you will end up with 38,000 magicak. Your racial passive was nerfed in half. You lost 2000 magicka, which is about 200 spell damage.
This is what happens every time. ZOS buffs you with one hand, then nerfs you with the other. On a long enough timeline you don't progress because another sweeping nerf comes in and takes away the power you gained.
MLGProPlayer wrote: »Facefister wrote: »You can blame PvP for that, every "homogenizing" move by any dev is an attempt to balance PvP.Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »OH man here come all the "BUT MUH POINTS" cries.
My beautiful fake, meaningless, vertical progression treadmill points!!!!!1!!!!
What will I ever do if I can't log in when the new update hits and increase my elemental damage by 0.002%
How will I feel useful to my raid guild?
You are all on a treadmill. While you happily invested more and more points into damage and sustain. ZOS was busy nerfing Helping Hands passive from DK, Leeching strikes passive from nightblade, dark deal from sorc. Making class abilities more homogenized and less unique, all to pay for the power gained by the champion system.
You were getting buffs from one system and then getting your class skills nerfed from the other and some of you still want more fake imaginary points. Im sure ZOS can implement something to spend your points on that doesn't destabilize the game.
Because of the imbalance that the cp system created...
It's not even a PvP issue. CP point's have ruined PvE too. They've trivialised the majority of content which used to be fun and challenging
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for a system that has introduced so much powercreep,.
The majority of balance issues has risen because of this CP system, I hope they nuke the entire thing and then focus on putting the power and uniqueness back into the classes. That being said, I wouldn't mind a perk system more akin to skyrim which would add actual meaningful variation in builds instead of just some dumb stat increase, which is what the CP system should have been to begin with.
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »I hope all you progression people saw ZOS's new post on Racial Changes;
They went and did exactly what I predicted they would do: They removed ALL max stat % Racial Passives and replaced them with static values.
@VanyelMohr @Diminish
Perhaps I'm being too flippant and hyperbolic in this thread. Here is a concrete example of why I say Vertical Progression is essentially a "Treadmill" or Meaningless
So lets say you have an endgame "progression" PvE magicka DPS character that is a breton or high elf with 35 -40K max magicka.
I will use one of Alcasts builds as an example because they are pretty uniform across the board for magicka. (Siroria/spell strat)
That build has about 39,600 magicka. Your breton or High elf had a 10% max magicka perk from racial passives.
Without this magicka perk (39600/1.1) you would have 36,000 magicka. That's a 4000 magicka loss. If you add ZOS's flat rate value back in, you will end up with 38,000 magicak. Your racial passive was nerfed in half. You lost 2000 magicka, which is about 200 spell damage.
This is what happens every time. ZOS buffs you with one hand, then nerfs you with the other. On a long enough timeline you don't progress because another sweeping nerf comes in and takes away the power you gained.
VanyelMohr wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »I hope all you progression people saw ZOS's new post on Racial Changes;
They went and did exactly what I predicted they would do: They removed ALL max stat % Racial Passives and replaced them with static values.
@VanyelMohr @Diminish
Perhaps I'm being too flippant and hyperbolic in this thread. Here is a concrete example of why I say Vertical Progression is essentially a "Treadmill" or Meaningless
So lets say you have an endgame "progression" PvE magicka DPS character (breton or high elf) with 35 -40K max magicka.
I will use one of Alcasts builds as an example because they are pretty uniform across the board for magicka. (Siroria/spell strat)
That build has about 39,600 magicka. Your breton or High elf had a 10% max magicka perk from racial passives.
Without this magicka perk (39600/1.1) you would have 36,000 magicka. That's a 4000 magicka loss. If you add ZOS's flat rate value back in, you will end up with 38,000 magicak. Your racial passive was nerfed in half. You lost 2000 magicka, which is about 200 spell damage.
This is what happens every time. ZOS buffs you with one hand, then nerfs you with the other. On a long enough timeline you don't progress because another sweeping nerf comes in and takes away the power you gained.
Make cookie cutter builds. All have the same stats and abilities. No one can claim someone else's class race is broken. Everything is based on raw skill instead of progression. The only thing one has to differentiate themselves from one another is their costumes. Wonderful fun.
The treadmill you describe does not exist. I am not as weak at CP719 as I was at level 1. A game where there is no progression and you just repeat content ad nauseum is a treadmill.