It's Official. No Champion Point increase next Update. Thank you Rich for listening!

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2019

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for a system that has introduced so much powercreep, meaningless vertical progression, and has been the true root cause of most of the class skill nerfs in the game - sucking the fun and uniqueness out of each class. Powerful class skills are much more fun than just bigger damage numbers. But you cant have powerful skills and super high damage. Something had to give. Thankfully they chose wisely this time.

Here is a clip from the Twitch Stream:
https://clips.twitch.tv/SmilingKnottyNarwhalRlyTho

Notice that Rich ALMOST says the words "Power Creep." I almost cried. Half done is well begun Rich. Thanks for realizing the champion system road is a dead end. Lets hope its revamped to provide non-combat, non-stat based advantages that are fun to unlock for the people that like that sort of thing. Maybe removed entirely in PvP. That would be the best. I look forward to participating in "revamp the champ system" threads.

Aliyavana · January 2019

Thank you rich, now remove clutch points completely

JJBoomer · January 2019

not just with the next update. they said for the foreseeable future. so it sounds like they could be phasing it out. which would be great.

JinMori · January 2019

It's a lazy fix, not impressed.

What they should have done is make new difficulties accounting for cp, but i guess it's too much to ask to actually follow up to the systems you make.

And people are glad about this, Jesus Christ, talk about low standards.

xaraan · January 2019

I'd like to see some sort of end game progression line added with some interesting, even non-combat skills we can earn that give us something to do if they want to get rid of CP totally.

It's nice earning stuff like harvesting, or a little rez bonus, etc. more than just flat buffs and bonuses to entire swaths of damage.

JJBoomer · January 2019

JinMori wrote: »

It's a lazy fix, not impressed.

What they should have done is make new difficulties accounting for cp, but i guess it's too much to ask to actually follow up to the systems you make.

And people are glad about this, Jesus Christ, talk about low standards.

power creep is a real issues that damages combat in games like this. so looking to remedy that is a good thing. and they are allowed to rethink systems once created.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2019

EDIT: THIS IS HOW MAFIA POWER CREEP WORKS

Several people have challenged me to provide a concrete example of what I mean by "Vertical Progression Treadmill" or "Power Creep"

A perfect example to illustrate this is ZOS's new post on upcoming Racial Changes;

They went and did exactly what I predicted they would do: They removed ALL max stat % Racial Passives and replaced them with static values.

For example:

High Elf

Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Syrabane’s Boon: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.

Redguard

Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

So lets say you have an endgame "progression" PvE magicka DPS character that is a breton or high elf with 35 -40K max magicka.
I will use one of Alcasts builds as an example because they are pretty uniform across the board for magicka. (Siroria/spell strat)

That build has about 39,600 magicka. Your breton or High elf had a 10% max magicka perk from racial passives.

Without this magicka perk (39600/1.1) you would have 36,000 magicka. That's a 4000 magicka loss. If you add ZOS's flat rate value (of 2000 magicka) back in, you will end up with 38,000 magicak. On this build, your racial passive was nerfed in half. You lost 2000 magicka, which is about 200 spell damage.

This is what happens every time. ZOS buffs you with one hand, then nerfs you with the other. On a long enough timeline, you don't progress because another sweeping nerf comes in and takes away the power you gained.

So if you have a system like Champion points, that routinely increases your character's power, expect to have nerfs to things like racials or class skills.

We are giving up racial and class uniqueness for bigger numbers. If this continues, the only difference between classes and races will be their skins and particle effects.

Malamar1229 · January 2019

So much to do with CP but I agree.
Would be cool to dive deeper into your class and specialize in certain areas like an Ice Mage

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2019

xaraan wrote: »

I'd like to see some sort of end game progression line added with some interesting, even non-combat skills we can earn that give us something to do if they want to get rid of CP totally.

It's nice earning stuff like harvesting, or a little rez bonus, etc. more than just flat buffs and bonuses to entire swaths of damage.

There are plenty of really cool endgame perks you could add instead of just more damage, more healing, etc. Here's an example.

Beastmaster perk. Prevents low level enemies in base game zones from attacking or aggroing on you when you walk by. Would be nice to not have a low level wolf or bandit always decide to pick a fight with me that they will always lose. Plus it would make you feel like a boss going into low zones where they know not to mess with you. Immersive, useful, respectful of your progression, and fun. that is what the champ system should be.

Imagine farming crafting nodes with no pesky critters attacking you. Because they fear you based on your champion level.

BringerOfOmens · January 2019

CP also allows flexibility in the game which diverts from a rigid class system. Expect to see more "nerf that class" threads as distinction betweens the classes grow.

In addition, they said they dont see how or when they can do "class change" tokens. This becomes problematic as a large set of players spend 6 months training mounts, 1 year doing research on a toon, spending considerable time and effort doing questing and skill point hunting to level and round out their toons. Class rigidity too often punishes this group of players and they end up leaving the game rather than starting over.

Food for thought.

MasterSpatula · January 2019

JinMori wrote: »

It's a lazy fix, not impressed.

What they should have done is make new difficulties accounting for cp, but i guess it's too much to ask to actually follow up to the systems you make.

And people are glad about this, Jesus Christ, talk about low standards.

It's a start, which is all they said it was. It's a good thing. Your expectations aren't reasonable. This is a good start. See where they do (or don't) go with it before getting upset.

Siohwenoeht · January 2019

Did they happen to hint at what char progression will be after hitting cp cap?

BlueRaven · January 2019

So the extra champion points I have are for nothing? That's disappointing.

How about letting the extra points go towards a discount for champion point respeccing or something. Or maybe redoing the trees entirely to accommodate higher champion point totals?

Odovacar · January 2019

So what do we do with all these accumulated points hmmmm

Shadow-Fighter · January 2019

Ok. No increase. Lets remove Champion System but they dont have a vision.

Not having a replacement or vision is a problem

Tasear · January 2019

Was a class rep suggestion

Loves_guars · January 2019

Yes, good decision. I'm maxed but think there's no much point for more CPs, never tried to grind them, and it's an insane amount to catch up for new players.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2019

OH man here come all the "BUT MUH POINTS" cries.

My beautiful fake, meaningless, vertical progression treadmill points!!!!!1!!!!

What will I ever do if I can't log in when the new update hits and increase my elemental damage by 0.002%
How will I feel useful to my raid guild?

You are all on a treadmill. While you happily invested more and more points into damage and sustain. ZOS was busy nerfing Helping Hands passive from DK, Leeching strikes passive from nightblade, dark deal from sorc. Making class abilities more homogenized and less unique, all to pay for the power gained by the champion system.

You were getting buffs from one system and then getting your class skills nerfed from the other and some of you still want more fake imaginary points. Im sure ZOS can implement something to spend your points on that doesn't destabilize the game.

VanyelMohr · January 2019

I like feeling a sense of progression. I hope they add a system that makes me feel like I have something to work towards. Your Beastmaster suggestion does nothing for me.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

There are plenty of really cool endgame perks you could add instead of just more damage, more healing, etc. Here's an example.

Beastmaster perk. Prevents low level enemies in base game zones from attacking or aggroing on you when you walk by. Would be nice to not have a low level wolf or bandit always decide to pick a fight with me that they will always lose. Plus it would make you feel like a boss going into low zones where they know not to mess with you. Immersive, useful, respectful of your progression, and fun. that is what the champ system should be.

Cage_Lizardman · January 2019

So can I get an option to turn my 1135 cp into inventory capacity?

Ertosi · January 2019

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Did they happen to hint at what char progression will be after hitting cp cap?

Only that they're "thinking about it". Until then, there will be no character progression after hitting CP cap, and that cap will no longer ever be increased. Many here consider it a good thing, but I disagree. You should always have something to show for putting in more time than others in a game.

Being at the cap, while still collecting levels, it was comforting to know that even if I didn't play for a while, I could come back and still see the CP cap catch up to me but now, once you're there.... that's it.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2019

VanyelMohr wrote: »

I like feeling a sense of progression. I hope they add something to make me feel like I have something to work towards. Your Beastmaster suggestion does nothing for me.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

There are plenty of really cool endgame perks you could add instead of just more damage, more healing, etc. Here's an example.

Beastmaster perk. Prevents low level enemies in base game zones from attacking or aggroing on you when you walk by. Would be nice to not have a low level wolf or bandit always decide to pick a fight with me that they will always lose. Plus it would make you feel like a boss going into low zones where they know not to mess with you. Immersive, useful, respectful of your progression, and fun. that is what the champ system should be.

I know there are some people that are never pleased unless there is some mindless thing to grind towards. There is so much to do in this game horizonally. There are so many builds I have wanted to try, but cant because I don't have time or money, or inventory space to grind all the gear. But to only desire vertical progression seems so mindless. Who cares if your numbers are bigger? ZOS will just adjust the mobs to compensate.

We need more horizontal progression. Now I know why Psijic Order was so grindy. for people like you that have to have a goal. I just wanted to implement new skills in new builds but grinders gotta grind. and make work for the rest of us.

How about a system of Champion points that let you spend points permanently on new characters to instantly unlock or progress the various guild skill trees? that would be useful at least.

idk · January 2019

Aliyavana wrote: »

Thank you rich, now remove clutch points completely

They did say there were reviewing it which can lead to a redesign. However, they will not take something away that we worked for. That is never a good idea in an MMORPG.

Also, they are not clutch pointes. Especially since for the most part we are going up against players with the same number of points. It has puzzled me why you call them clutch points any skilled player can do well with and without them and I can hardly see a reason they think it gives someone else an advantage.

Morgul667 · January 2019

Quite sad about this

They remove cp power creep but keep gear induced power creep

So what reason do we have playing? No progression ? No pvp due to bad performance?

That does not look fun

WrathOfInnos · January 2019

Power creep = character progression, and is a core element of RPG games. I’m not saying that the CP system was the most interesting way to advance strength, but if the new plan is complete power stagnation it will get boring very quickly.

jainiadral · January 2019

Glad for the temporary cap, but not for what will probably be the solution. The CP system has made the game enjoyable for me. I hated the difficulty when I first started playing. Every group of mobs felt like getting punched in the face over and over again. I play to relax, not to get my face bashed in by RandomTrashDude1.

I really hope ZoS takes its sweet time before doing anything.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

Quite sad about this

They remove cp power creep but keep gear induced power creep

So what reason do we have playing? No progression ? No pvp due to bad performance?

That does not look fun

Yeah gear induced power creep is still an issue. Its funny that Julianos/willpower used to be pretty BIS. Now with Spell Strat/ Sriraccha from Cloudrest you get about 600 more spell damage from that setup. So are they just going to make more and more powerful gear each update? you are right, that still needs to be resolved.

VanyelMohr · January 2019

Some people are never pleased and some people are pleased with the way things are now. Those not wanting more CP points are now pleased. Those that were fine with more CP points are unpleased. Congratulations! You got what you wanted. I didn't.

The things that motivate you, don't motivate me. We obviously have different play styles. They are preferences and the way you play isn't better than mine (or vice versa).

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I know there are some people that are never pleased unless there is some mindless thing to grind towards. There is so much to do in this game horizonally. There are so many builds I have wanted to try, but cant because I don't have time or money, or inventory space to grind all the gear. But to only desire vertical progression seems so mindless. Who cares if your numbers are bigger? ZOS will just adjust the mobs to compensate.

We need more horizontal progression. Now I know why Psijic Order was so grindy. for people like you that have to have a goal. I just wanted to implement new skills in new builds but grinders gotta grind. and make work for the rest of us.

How about a system of Champion points that let you spend points permanently on new characters to instantly unlock or progress the various guild skill trees? that would be useful at least.

Girl_Number8 · January 2019

JinMori wrote: »

It's a lazy fix, not impressed.

What they should have done is make new difficulties accounting for cp, but i guess it's too much to ask to actually follow up to the systems you make.

And people are glad about this, Jesus Christ, talk about low standards.

I agree. This laziness is starting to be a trend with them. Veteran ranks which were not easy like cp were a grind but at least we got something for our time. Again they show their lack of direction for long time players.

Skwor · January 2019

The CP will be raised for the next chaper, just not for this DLC.

Also they will not be taking CP away, to many players have to much time vested in it, it would be one of the few things that really would kill this game.

This same BS line of complianing was around when we had Veteran Ranks. When they announced it was going away those short sighted cheered believing that was the end of vertical prograssion. I warned them then that it would never happen and that what will happen will just be another system of vertical progression, well sure enough we got CP.

It seems I get to say this again, mark my words we will either see another CP increase OR just another vertical progression system, either way you will always have some sort of leveling system to chase after.

No MMORPG can survive without some sort of vertical progression, wether you like this or not it is just a fact, the nature of the beast so to speak.

You can bet on this.

twitch_zero · January 2019

JinMori wrote: »

It's a lazy fix, not impressed.

What they should have done is make new difficulties accounting for cp, but i guess it's too much to ask to actually follow up to the systems you make.

And people are glad about this, Jesus Christ, talk about low standards.

How can it be a lazy fix when they haven't even announced an actual fix yet? This is just a hold while they evaluate the system.