ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

However I am not arguing against buffing Warden some more, by all means make us more powerful but when they add that extra power, we better not be losing power in other places because that's what ZoS does, they give and little but also take away more.

Why would buffing warden damage take away from warden tanks (which I know is all you care about)? They don't even share any abilities due to how warden skills are broken down.

I get you're defensive because some people keep asking for ice skills to be turned into DPS skills (because they want to play an "ice mage"), but these discussions are not productive and hurt the class. We shouldn't be having these kinds of divisions within.

No, magden DPS is not fine and absolutely needs a buff. You're being purposely disingenuous when you argue otherwise.

And no, ice skills should not be changed to DPS skills. Ice mage warden will never be a thing and doesn't need to be a thing. It's just an archetype.

Ice skills should be changed. There are several unused/underperforming morphs. Not enough dps skills and a lot of people wanting to play an ice dps mage since its been in every other game. It DOES need to be a thing to increase our dps. Why give us increased ice damage passives at all if it wasn't supposed to be a thing?

This sentiment is ridiculous. You may argue that its just an archetype. But i see it as warden gets more dps options and increased dps. While ice mages have more skills to play around with and ysgrammors will finally become useful.

As long as there are skills that are completely useless for tanking, then sure. I don't play warden tank to know what those skills are, but I do see tank players getting defensive at every suggestion so it's obviously a sensitive topic.

But right now, every warden thread devolves into the following:

Group 1: Let's change some ice skills to DPS skills.

Group 2: No, magicka DPS is fine. Leave ice skills for tanking.

And 20 months later, nothing has changed because the player base can't even form a unified front around the issues plaguing the class. You get warden tanks furthering the agenda that "magden DPS is fine" every chance they get as a way of "protecting" their ice skills. While on the DPS side, we are constantly recommending changes that the tanks are opposed to and that ZOS doesn't seem receptive to since to them, ice is a tanking element.

we are looking at reworking underused and underperforming morphs. we don't want to change the entire line to be dps. we want to KEEP ice for tanking too. i don't see what you're describing here happening at all (this Group 2). there may be a few objectors. but it seems like a few of them don't understand what we want to do. we don't want to delete ice tanking. we just wish to create dps skills from the tank skills people rarely use because they underperform. i understand a few people may not like this. but i have not seen any massive backlash. never before has there been a movement like the one we are building for ice.

I get it you want to change unused morphs but who the F asked for Arctic Blast to be changed the way it did? What happened with Arctic Blast is what I am afraid of by them changing morphs and who is our Warden Rep?

ZOS and our rep are not competent enough to be changing things without completely trashing something. I am not even fully bought into the bear nerfs and putting the 8% dmg on Prey, I rather have Prey's minor Berzerk activatable rather than having it sit on my main bar with no other use except for the 8% dmg when I want to deeps on my Warden.

casparian wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

However I am not arguing against buffing Warden some more, by all means make us more powerful but when they add that extra power, we better not be losing power in other places because that's what ZoS does, they give and little but also take away more.

Why would buffing warden damage take away from warden tanks (which I know is all you care about)? They don't even share any abilities due to how warden skills are broken down.

I get you're defensive because some people keep asking for ice skills to be turned into DPS skills (because they want to play an "ice mage"), but these discussions are not productive and hurt the class. We shouldn't be having these kinds of divisions within.

No, magden DPS is not fine and absolutely needs a buff. You're being purposely disingenuous when you argue otherwise.

And no, ice skills should not be changed to DPS skills. Ice mage warden will never be a thing and doesn't need to be a thing. It's just an archetype.

Ice skills should be changed. There are several unused/underperforming morphs. Not enough dps skills and a lot of people wanting to play an ice dps mage since its been in every other game. It DOES need to be a thing to increase our dps. Why give us increased ice damage passives at all if it wasn't supposed to be a thing?

This sentiment is ridiculous. You may argue that its just an archetype. But i see it as warden gets more dps options and increased dps. While ice mages have more skills to play around with and ysgrammors will finally become useful.

As long as there are skills that are completely useless for tanking, then sure. I don't play warden tank to know what those skills are, but I do see tank players getting defensive at every suggestion so it's obviously a sensitive topic.

But right now, every warden thread devolves into the following:

Group 1: Let's change some ice skills to DPS skills.

Group 2: No, magicka DPS is fine. Leave ice skills for tanking.

And 20 months later, nothing has changed because the player base can't even form a unified front around the issues plaguing the class. You get warden tanks furthering the agenda that "magden DPS is fine" every chance they get as a way of "protecting" their ice skills. While on the DPS side, we are constantly recommending changes that the tanks are opposed to and that ZOS doesn't seem receptive to since to them, ice is a tanking element.

we are looking at reworking underused and underperforming morphs. we don't want to change the entire line to be dps. we want to KEEP ice for tanking too. i don't see what you're describing here happening at all (this Group 2). there may be a few objectors. but it seems like a few of them don't understand what we want to do. we don't want to delete ice tanking. we just wish to create dps skills from the tank skills people rarely use because they underperform. i understand a few people may not like this. but i have not seen any massive backlash. never before has there been a movement like the one we are building for ice.

I get it you want to change unused morphs but who the F asked for Arctic Blast to be changed the way it did? What happened with Arctic Blast is what I am afraid of by them changing morphs and who is our Warden Rep?

ZOS and our rep are not competent enough to be changing things without completely trashing something. I am not even fully bought into the bear nerfs and putting the 8% dmg on Prey, I rather have Prey's minor Berzerk activatable rather than having it sit on my main bar with no other use except for the 8% dmg when I want to deeps on my Warden.

There aren't reps for specific classes. Multiple reps play Warden. None of the reps suggested or approved of the Arctic Blast change, nor the Prey nerf.

I can't believe after all this time people still don't understand the class rep system.

Then explain what the point of a rep is for if ZOS isn't going to use them?

IronWooshu wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

However I am not arguing against buffing Warden some more, by all means make us more powerful but when they add that extra power, we better not be losing power in other places because that's what ZoS does, they give and little but also take away more.

Why would buffing warden damage take away from warden tanks (which I know is all you care about)? They don't even share any abilities due to how warden skills are broken down.

I get you're defensive because some people keep asking for ice skills to be turned into DPS skills (because they want to play an "ice mage"), but these discussions are not productive and hurt the class. We shouldn't be having these kinds of divisions within.

No, magden DPS is not fine and absolutely needs a buff. You're being purposely disingenuous when you argue otherwise.

And no, ice skills should not be changed to DPS skills. Ice mage warden will never be a thing and doesn't need to be a thing. It's just an archetype.

Ice skills should be changed. There are several unused/underperforming morphs. Not enough dps skills and a lot of people wanting to play an ice dps mage since its been in every other game. It DOES need to be a thing to increase our dps. Why give us increased ice damage passives at all if it wasn't supposed to be a thing?

This sentiment is ridiculous. You may argue that its just an archetype. But i see it as warden gets more dps options and increased dps. While ice mages have more skills to play around with and ysgrammors will finally become useful.

As long as there are skills that are completely useless for tanking, then sure. I don't play warden tank to know what those skills are, but I do see tank players getting defensive at every suggestion so it's obviously a sensitive topic.

But right now, every warden thread devolves into the following:

Group 1: Let's change some ice skills to DPS skills.

Group 2: No, magicka DPS is fine. Leave ice skills for tanking.

And 20 months later, nothing has changed because the player base can't even form a unified front around the issues plaguing the class. You get warden tanks furthering the agenda that "magden DPS is fine" every chance they get as a way of "protecting" their ice skills. While on the DPS side, we are constantly recommending changes that the tanks are opposed to and that ZOS doesn't seem receptive to since to them, ice is a tanking element.

we are looking at reworking underused and underperforming morphs. we don't want to change the entire line to be dps. we want to KEEP ice for tanking too. i don't see what you're describing here happening at all (this Group 2). there may be a few objectors. but it seems like a few of them don't understand what we want to do. we don't want to delete ice tanking. we just wish to create dps skills from the tank skills people rarely use because they underperform. i understand a few people may not like this. but i have not seen any massive backlash. never before has there been a movement like the one we are building for ice.

I get it you want to change unused morphs but who the F asked for Arctic Blast to be changed the way it did? What happened with Arctic Blast is what I am afraid of by them changing morphs and who is our Warden Rep?

ZOS and our rep are not competent enough to be changing things without completely trashing something. I am not even fully bought into the bear nerfs and putting the 8% dmg on Prey, I rather have Prey's minor Berzerk activatable rather than having it sit on my main bar with no other use except for the 8% dmg when I want to deeps on my Warden.

So long as stamdens are performing the way they are, it's really unlikely that magdens will be anything more than what they've been since introduction...an overland explorer. But anyways....

Bird of prey does seem rather an empty space on the bar for sure, I'd suggest giving the bear a minor berserk (maybe as a group buff?) instead but non-bear deeps would likely oppose even though animal companion passive already promotes the idea that the more animal skills we have the better for dps. But doing that would make bird of prey a near useless skill, and PVE wardens have plenty of those already. So probably not.

Agreed artic blast is out of place. I use it in pvp on occasion. I'd have to cast it early even when my health isn't low just to get the stun. But maybe this is supposed to be a tuck and run, cast it to get a monkey off your back while you recover or retreat? In any event the skill doesn't make whole lot of sense in the way it's currently designed.

With rumors of new possible race changes of certain sustain (cough cough Argonians) It might be too sudden to start requesting or suggesting tank skills to modified and maybe warden tanks might leap above dragonknights in the future? But this is entirely speculative and just an open thought.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

we are looking at reworking underused and underperforming morphs. we don't want to change the entire line to be dps. we want to KEEP ice for tanking too. i don't see what you're describing here happening at all (this Group 2). there may be a few objectors. but it seems like a few of them don't understand what we want to do. we don't want to delete ice tanking. we just wish to create dps skills from the tank skills people rarely use because they underperform. i understand a few people may not like this. but i have not seen any massive backlash. never before has there been a movement like the one we are building for ice.

As I've stated before, You cant have all the current defensive and utility aspect of Ice and add in DPS. It would be OP then. Just look at how mad people are in the current PermaRoot meta. The only way to have Ice be both is for them to some how be mutually exclusive. Something like Ancient Knowledge passive having a morph 1-Current or 2-(DPS Ideas)

Did you look at our Crystallized Slab rework on the Discord? That isn't defencive anymore. And it certainly isnt op either. We arent looking at adding any more snares into the game. Just a few skills that magden and ice dps mages will benefit from. The only thing that is op is the snares. and you said yourself that they are probably going to deal with that soon.

IronWooshu wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

However I am not arguing against buffing Warden some more, by all means make us more powerful but when they add that extra power, we better not be losing power in other places because that's what ZoS does, they give and little but also take away more.

Why would buffing warden damage take away from warden tanks (which I know is all you care about)? They don't even share any abilities due to how warden skills are broken down.

I get you're defensive because some people keep asking for ice skills to be turned into DPS skills (because they want to play an "ice mage"), but these discussions are not productive and hurt the class. We shouldn't be having these kinds of divisions within.

No, magden DPS is not fine and absolutely needs a buff. You're being purposely disingenuous when you argue otherwise.

And no, ice skills should not be changed to DPS skills. Ice mage warden will never be a thing and doesn't need to be a thing. It's just an archetype.

Ice skills should be changed. There are several unused/underperforming morphs. Not enough dps skills and a lot of people wanting to play an ice dps mage since its been in every other game. It DOES need to be a thing to increase our dps. Why give us increased ice damage passives at all if it wasn't supposed to be a thing?

This sentiment is ridiculous. You may argue that its just an archetype. But i see it as warden gets more dps options and increased dps. While ice mages have more skills to play around with and ysgrammors will finally become useful.

As long as there are skills that are completely useless for tanking, then sure. I don't play warden tank to know what those skills are, but I do see tank players getting defensive at every suggestion so it's obviously a sensitive topic.

But right now, every warden thread devolves into the following:

Group 1: Let's change some ice skills to DPS skills.

Group 2: No, magicka DPS is fine. Leave ice skills for tanking.

And 20 months later, nothing has changed because the player base can't even form a unified front around the issues plaguing the class. You get warden tanks furthering the agenda that "magden DPS is fine" every chance they get as a way of "protecting" their ice skills. While on the DPS side, we are constantly recommending changes that the tanks are opposed to and that ZOS doesn't seem receptive to since to them, ice is a tanking element.

we are looking at reworking underused and underperforming morphs. we don't want to change the entire line to be dps. we want to KEEP ice for tanking too. i don't see what you're describing here happening at all (this Group 2). there may be a few objectors. but it seems like a few of them don't understand what we want to do. we don't want to delete ice tanking. we just wish to create dps skills from the tank skills people rarely use because they underperform. i understand a few people may not like this. but i have not seen any massive backlash. never before has there been a movement like the one we are building for ice.

I get it you want to change unused morphs but who the F asked for Arctic Blast to be changed the way it did? What happened with Arctic Blast is what I am afraid of by them changing morphs and who is our Warden Rep?

ZOS and our rep are not competent enough to be changing things without completely trashing something. I am not even fully bought into the bear nerfs and putting the 8% dmg on Prey, I rather have Prey's minor Berzerk activatable rather than having it sit on my main bar with no other use except for the 8% dmg when I want to deeps on my Warden.

on the contrary, I love having a mobility ability on my bars that actually does something for my combat prowess. My bars are otherwise too full to spare a space for mobility.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

we are looking at reworking underused and underperforming morphs. we don't want to change the entire line to be dps. we want to KEEP ice for tanking too. i don't see what you're describing here happening at all (this Group 2). there may be a few objectors. but it seems like a few of them don't understand what we want to do. we don't want to delete ice tanking. we just wish to create dps skills from the tank skills people rarely use because they underperform. i understand a few people may not like this. but i have not seen any massive backlash. never before has there been a movement like the one we are building for ice.

As I've stated before, You cant have all the current defensive and utility aspect of Ice and add in DPS. It would be OP then. Just look at how mad people are in the current PermaRoot meta. The only way to have Ice be both is for them to some how be mutually exclusive. Something like Ancient Knowledge passive having a morph 1-Current or 2-(DPS Ideas)

Did you look at our Crystallized Slab rework on the Discord? That isn't defencive anymore. And it certainly isnt op either. We arent looking at adding any more snares into the game. Just a few skills that magden and ice dps mages will benefit from. The only thing that is op is the snares. and you said yourself that they are probably going to deal with that soon.

Sadly yes, and because ZoS wont fix there own mistakes, they are going to eff over Warden even harder by making Ice even weaker.
- Revert all speed changes (And FM) except Pots and Swift
- Then fix Swift and all jewelry, by making them not stack with each other. Make it so that BiS is to have 3 different jewelry traits (maybe allow the original 3 to stay the same and stack)

That will fix this Root Meta without reintroducing the old speed meta

New combat design lead. Will magicka warden finally get buffed now? Place your bets.

The only thing I am missing as a Warden is an execute skill/spell that deals frost damage. And maybe Flies dealing Frost damage, too.

Some huge indirect buffs to magden this patch:

1. Universal damage buff to pets
2. Ancient knowledge no longer requires a destro ability to be slotted (magden was only class that didn't use destro ult so had to waste a skill slot on useless destro ability; now we can slot an AC skill instead for +3% damage)
3. Altmer/Dunmer +258 spell damage means AC skills do more damage

I think we might be able to hit magDK numbers this patch, which would put us only like 5% behind magblade/magplar, and I'm fine with that.

1) There aren't anywhere near enough damage abilities. This makes playing them feel very repetitive very quickly.

I like magic.

Wardens have a grand total of 4 magicka damage abilities.

There also aren't many non-class options. Some, but very few. Nowhere near as many as there are for stamina users.

I love the visuals for some of our buffs (eg. the lotus one) but there's a stupid amount of them. Seriously, in our dedicated DPS skill line 2 out of the 5 abilities are buffs. Plus there are more buffs in the other lines!

I would change arctic wind to a damage ability. Wardens have an entire line dedicated to healing with several abilities which presently are good to no-one but tanks, so this is a huge waste IMO. I'd also change one or both of betty netch and falcon's swiftness to damage abilities. Maybe make netch a non-perma DPS pet like nightblades have.

2) Healing could easily be a lot better.

Budding seeds is very nice. But it's the only class healing ability worth taking into group content.

Group PvE content is lots of people running around madly avoiding red circles. Living vines and nature's grasp are difficult to use in those circumstances. I have tried it. But ended up relying on resto staff heals to actually keep people alive. Also myself. Grasp pulling me to another player usually puts me somewhere where there's a lot of damage happening. Not a great place for a healer to be.

Even fungal growth can be a bit iffy. It's strong but with such a narrow cone and with players moving around so much it can be hard to hit someone who actually needs it. Drop a budding seeds field and players know to run into it.

What wardens most desperately need is a viable single target heal. Preferably untargeted like resto staff healing ward or the sorc pet matriarch heal.

Nerouyn wrote: »

1) There aren't anywhere near enough damage abilities. This makes playing them feel very repetitive very quickly.

I would change arctic wind to a damage ability. Wardens have an entire line dedicated to healing with several abilities which presently are good to no-one but tanks, so this is a huge waste IMO. I'd also change one or both of betty netch and falcon's swiftness to damage abilities. Maybe make netch a non-perma DPS pet like nightblades have.

Whoa... are you even listing to yourself?
- Netch is frigging amazing dont change it.
- Falcon WAS good until ZoS nerfed it
- Arctic Wind, is the HP based defensive skill, that every class has. It just needs fixed and not Forked over further by ZoS
What you CAN DO though is fix other skills
- Put a proc like Spectral Bow or Frags on Expansive Cloak
- Turn Frozen Retreat into something useful (not an escape that also drags the enemy with them)
- Turn Bursting Vines into something useful
- Turn Crystallized Slab into something useful.

2) Healing could easily be a lot better.

Budding seeds is very nice. But it's the only class healing ability worth taking into group content.

Even fungal growth can be a bit iffy. It's strong but with such a narrow cone and with players moving around so much it can be hard to hit someone who actually needs it. Drop a budding seeds field and players know to run into it.

Mushrooms and Forest are both great in group content. You can use Forest and Architect to boost group DPS. And Enchanted is no Different than Combat Prayer or Blockade. Its a buff skill, not a Healing skill, only cast it to refresh the Minor Intellect/Endurance/Toughness

What wardens most desperately need is a viable single target heal. Preferably untargeted like resto staff healing ward or the sorc pet matriarch heal.

I wouldn't say thats what Wardens most need. I wouldnt even say that is what Warden Healers most most need. For one Trellis a Single Target, Smart Heal, just like Resto Ward, So is the Lotus HA Heal.

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

1. Please can we have a ranged execute? Something like Icicles or shards of ice from the roof.
2. Please can we have an ice spammable skill?.

We had an idea very similar to this. It's a rework of Crystallised slab. there are 2 versions of it. i'll give you v2. but v1 doesn't have the minor courage.

Crystallized Swords:

Embrace Atmora's Power giving you and nearby allies minor courage for 21 seconds. While active, Applying chilled on an enemy summons an ice sword around you. This can occur once every 3 seconds. You can have up to 3 swords at a time.

At any time after 1 sword is summoned, you can fire the swords to bombard an enemy. The first sword deals 230 frost damage. The second sword deals 330 frost damage. The final sword deals 410 frost damage and up to +150% more damage to targets below 50% health

The idea is a delayed burst skill similar to deep fissure and nightblade's grim focus skill. it's a proc skill. It works in rotation with warden's other skills. Essentially you have to build it up after minimum 9 seconds(max damage) to release the damage and then time it with your fissure burst. the execute isn't very big and neither is the individual sword's damage, it deals a decent amount of damage in a burst if all projectiles hit. Courage was placed there to give group utility to magden and to have it do something while you build it up. it's duration fits with other magden skills and is on the 3 second timer.

these base numbers are perhaps a little too low. but they are a reference point. and this skill will absolutely work better in pve. but it may see use in pvp, that is. if it was ever implemented.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Netch is frigging amazing dont change it.

In case this wasn't clear enough...

DO 👏 NOT 👏 TOUCH 👏 MY 👏 NETCH 👏

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

The magicka warden has now become a bit boring for me as not matter the build it always includes the only 4 damage skills the class has. We need more variety, please!

we're working on it!

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

1. Please can we have a ranged execute? Something like Icicles or shards of ice from the roof.
2. Please can we have an ice spammable skill?.

We had an idea very similar to this. It's a rework of Crystallised slab. there are 2 versions of it. i'll give you v2. but v1 doesn't have the minor courage.

Crystallized Swords:

Embrace Atmora's Power giving you and nearby allies minor courage for 21 seconds. While active, Applying chilled on an enemy summons an ice sword around you. This can occur once every 3 seconds. You can have up to 3 swords at a time.

At any time after 1 sword is summoned, you can fire the swords to bombard an enemy. The first sword deals 230 frost damage. The second sword deals 330 frost damage. The final sword deals 410 frost damage and up to +150% more damage to targets below 50% health

The idea is a delayed burst skill similar to deep fissure and nightblade's grim focus skill. it's a proc skill. It works in rotation with warden's other skills. Essentially you have to build it up after minimum 9 seconds(max damage) to release the damage and then time it with your fissure burst. the execute isn't very big and neither is the individual sword's damage, it deals a decent amount of damage in a burst if all projectiles hit. Courage was placed there to give group utility to magden and to have it do something while you build it up. it's duration fits with other magden skills and is on the 3 second timer.

these base numbers are perhaps a little too low. but they are a reference point. and this skill will absolutely work better in pve. but it may see use in pvp, that is. if it was ever implemented.

seems like a lot of hoops to jump through just for an execute, and then it only works once until you jump through more hoops to build it again.

we don't want to make warden #1 dps. we just want to give them more skills to play around with while making chilled actually useful to a DD. this skill is there to activate around every 10 seconds for a nice bit of burst damage. and it should give magden just a little more juice in the damage dealing tank along with group viability to make magden worth using. if you're using Elemental weapon, or other frost skills which we are trying to make more appealing, it won't really be too bad of a hoop to jump through like you say.