idk wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

idk wrote: »

iALEXi wrote: »

Why not make cloak the same as mist form? For what I see now, is that cloak is a free ticket out of death with the abuse of people using trollking and heals during the cloak. Mist form also gets no healing so why not.

It is also not a free ticket out of death as the counters are easy to use for anyone that has bothered to learn to use them.

And those counters are easily countered by shadow image , roll dodge etc for any nightblade that bothered to learn to use them.

It's so easy to counter cloak counters it's almost laughable people are still coming with that argument about how easily counterable cloak is. Some of those counters are so easy to counter that calling them soft counters is overstatement. Good stamblades dont give a damm about those counters.

I mean yes occasionally You can die to it especially when attacked by multiple opponents but that can be said literally about any ability in the game. Combined with other skills/sets cloak IS a free ticket out of death.

This is a very inaccurate statement. So much is seems to be grasping at straws.

I will just start with the first incorrect statement. To use shadow image as a counter to being pulled out of stealth one would have to set it up to start with which is extremely unlikely since few players try to pull them it of stealth. It’s why NBs usually freak out when they are pulled out of stealth.

I can only agree that a good NB isn’t so concerned about the counters but it’s because they can outsmart most players. Most players don’t seem to try to learn how to counter.

I know this because it’s me of the two classes I PvP on the most is a NB. Fee even try and when they do it’s laughable. Skills should not be nerfed because some players lack skill.

idk wrote: »

Beside cloak being nerfed to where it does not cleans the DoTs away it also has a counter.

OP conveniently complains about the counter I have found great success with, magelight. It is great pulling a NB out of stealth and killing them. Heck, most of the time they do not know how to react.

Also, radiant significantly increases survival when attacked by that same NB when they are in stealth (or any ganker) so it is not as limited as OP wants to make it out to be. Not to mention OP did not go through all counters. Probably the ones they thought were easiest to belittle.

And yes, I used to hate NBs being able to stealth until I learned how to approach pulling them out of stealth. A bit part is figuring out how most players react when they go into stealth. After that you will get most of them. With how easy, and fun, I find this i am surprised to see these threads anymore.

Aedrion wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

Since only a select few people are actually producing arguments - for which you have my thanks - to back up their claims and it seems hard to pinpoint whether or not cloak is too strong, let me ask another question.

A challenge, if you will.

Give me the name of another skill in ESO that offers the consistent protection, control, and combat potency that cloak does.
A skill that offers at least as many or more benefits than those I listed in the first post.

If that skill is another NB skill, you lose at life so don't pick from those lines.

Mage light, either morph (radiant is better for this discussion though). It is great for pulling NBs out of stealth and keeping them out.

Really?

Magelight increases your maximum magicka by 7% (with the passive) and magicka regen by 2%
Alternatively, it'll dampen damage of a blow dealt from sneak for the other morph.

It grants Major Prophecy, increasing crit chance by 10%

Upon use, it reveals hidden opponents within 6 meters.

After use, your first light attack deals 20% more damage.

That is not gamechanging at all.
Potent yes. But this skill won't turn the tide in any fight. It's nowhere near as strong as cloak.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Can I get more healing and more mitigation in return to not get toasted by AoE and Overwhelming Surge in return which Vigor is far too weak to outheal?

Aedrion wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is a very inaccurate statement. So much is seems to be grasping at straws.

I will just start with the first incorrect statement. To use shadow image as a counter to being pulled out of stealth one would have to set it up to start with which is extremely unlikely since few players try to pull them it of stealth. It’s why NBs usually freak out when they are pulled out of stealth.

I can only agree that a good NB isn’t so concerned about the counters but it’s because they can outsmart most players. Most players don’t seem to try to learn how to counter.

I know this because it’s me of the two classes I PvP on the most is a NB. Fee even try and when they do it’s laughable. Skills should not be nerfed because some players lack skill.

This is such a beautiful comment, you don't even know.
Let's dissect this.

"To use shadow image as a counter to being pulled out of stealth one would have to set it up to start with which is extremely unlikely since few players try to pull them it of stealth."

This shows you probably don't use this and might not know how this skill should be used to counter people trying to reveal you. I've seen plenty of good NB's use it to troll people 1VX so let me go over it. You plant it while you run and get chased by people using AoE or revealing skills. Hurricane, Steel Tornado, Permafrost. Then after ~5 seconds you use it and teleport backwards, then instantly cloak and move sideways. The opponent will take 1 second to realise you probably teleported and will turn around to look. By that time, you are cloaked, potentially even unreachable if you use ledges. They'll run toward you but take 4-5 seconds to do so. By which time you've recovered and can re-engage.

It’s why NBs usually freak out when they are pulled out of stealth

This only proves my point. Cloak is so strong that people both don't expect to be pulled out and that when they do, they freak out because they didn't think they'd need a backup-plan. A backup plan like Shadow Image, by the way. It's true though, most of the time, when I do pull a NB out of cloak with Hurricane, they panic because they assumed their one-button god-skill would save them. It reveals that without their crutch to carry them, they have nothing else. They never learned to walk without it, so they die like lemmings.

I can only agree that a good NB isn’t so concerned about the counters but it’s because they can outsmart most players.

Again, admitting that NB's don't care about counters. Because the counters are insufficient, maybe? A bad NB might get pulled out of cloak by a potion, hurricane, steel tornado, magelight, maybe. Not always. A good one, exactly like you said, doesn't care. They just re-cloak or use Shadow Image to escape. You call that 'outsmarting' but it just proves that Nb's can counter the counters, which is something you claimed they couldn't.

Few even try and when they do it’s laughable. Skills should not be nerfed because some players lack skill.

You attribute their failure to pull you out of cloak to them being poor players. It's hard to try and argue here that what you're seeing is not your own superiors skills but a very powerful class skill in action against players whom - without an absolute counter to that skill - can't fight it effectively. It is proven however because this is true for fighting nearly all NB's. Even a noobblade can escape a fight unless he's fighting a whole group or facing a particularly adept player. NB's of all stripes can take massive risks and survive when no other class could. One can deduct then that it's not so much a matter of l33t skills and more a matter of a very powerful crutch being used.

Still, based on the assumption that you are a better than average player, I'll make another argument and note here that you just admitted that people who don't run specific skills can't hope to fight you and that even when they do, most still struggle. A telltale sign of a crutch in the hands of a decent player. I've seen it before on friends ingame. Skilled players using NB's crutch become nearly unkillable.

I re-iterate: There is no skill in ESO - wings was mentioned as a close second and I'll admit that it's legit very powerful but nowhere near cloak - that acts as a crutch for a whole playstyle as strong as cloak.

Find me one and I'll delete my whole post and replace it with NB praise.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is a very inaccurate statement. So much is seems to be grasping at straws.

I will just start with the first incorrect statement. To use shadow image as a counter to being pulled out of stealth one would have to set it up to start with which is extremely unlikely since few players try to pull them it of stealth. It’s why NBs usually freak out when they are pulled out of stealth.

I can only agree that a good NB isn’t so concerned about the counters but it’s because they can outsmart most players. Most players don’t seem to try to learn how to counter.

I know this because it’s me of the two classes I PvP on the most is a NB. Fee even try and when they do it’s laughable. Skills should not be nerfed because some players lack skill.

This is such a beautiful comment, you don't even know.
Let's dissect this.

"To use shadow image as a counter to being pulled out of stealth one would have to set it up to start with which is extremely unlikely since few players try to pull them it of stealth."

This shows you probably don't use this and might not know how this skill should be used to counter people trying to reveal you. I've seen plenty of good NB's use it to troll people 1VX so let me go over it. You plant it while you run and get chased by people using AoE or revealing skills. Hurricane, Steel Tornado, Permafrost. Then after ~5 seconds you use it and teleport backwards, then instantly cloak and move sideways. The opponent will take 1 second to realise you probably teleported and will turn around to look. By that time, you are cloaked, potentially even unreachable if you use ledges. They'll run toward you but take 4-5 seconds to do so. By which time you've recovered and can re-engage.

It’s why NBs usually freak out when they are pulled out of stealth

This only proves my point. Cloak is so strong that people both don't expect to be pulled out and that when they do, they freak out because they didn't think they'd need a backup-plan. A backup plan like Shadow Image, by the way. It's true though, most of the time, when I do pull a NB out of cloak with Hurricane, they panic because they assumed their one-button god-skill would save them. It reveals that without their crutch to carry them, they have nothing else. They never learned to walk without it, so they die like lemmings.

I can only agree that a good NB isn’t so concerned about the counters but it’s because they can outsmart most players.

Again, admitting that NB's don't care about counters. Because the counters are insufficient, maybe? A bad NB might get pulled out of cloak by a potion, hurricane, steel tornado, magelight, maybe. Not always. A good one, exactly like you said, doesn't care. They just re-cloak or use Shadow Image to escape. You call that 'outsmarting' but it just proves that Nb's can counter the counters, which is something you claimed they couldn't.

Few even try and when they do it’s laughable. Skills should not be nerfed because some players lack skill.

You attribute their failure to pull you out of cloak to them being poor players. It's hard to try and argue here that what you're seeing is not your own superiors skills but a very powerful class skill in action against players whom - without an absolute counter to that skill - can't fight it effectively. It is proven however because this is true for fighting nearly all NB's. Even a noobblade can escape a fight unless he's fighting a whole group or facing a particularly adept player. NB's of all stripes can take massive risks and survive when no other class could. One can deduct then that it's not so much a matter of l33t skills and more a matter of a very powerful crutch being used.

Still, based on the assumption that you are a better than average player, I'll make another argument and note here that you just admitted that people who don't run specific skills can't hope to fight you and that even when they do, most still struggle. A telltale sign of a crutch in the hands of a decent player. I've seen it before on friends ingame. Skilled players using NB's crutch become nearly unkillable.

I re-iterate: There is no skill in ESO - wings was mentioned as a close second and I'll admit that it's legit very powerful but nowhere near cloak - that acts as a crutch for a whole playstyle as strong as cloak.

Find me one and I'll delete my whole post and replace it with NB praise.

oof

Counter argument. Remove stacking streak cost, give templars back major mending and reduce cost of purify and reduce cost of wings and have it grant bot snare immunity and Major Expedition. If nightblades get to keep their crutch, every class should have one. People already don't die in PvP these days anyways. So lets just fully embrace ZoS' approach of not balancing anything properly.