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Your views toward Trading Guild Monopolies
ArchMikem
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As I've come to notice, there are Guilds that manage to hold a recurring presence in multiple Hubs simultaneously, using multiple sub Guilds. On Xbox NA, Lunacy, Old Man Meta, and Sauce are some big players. When a guild such as those become Company sized organizations they create sub divisions under the same main branch, different names, same Guild, more income from sales. Having several Traders at once creates a Monopoly on the Player market as more and more players will see your Guild name and associate a level of "professionalism" with it, thus whenever they desire an item, they'll think about your Trader first. This can ultimately hurt other smaller Guilds as they won't even be considered since their name is unfamiliar, regardless of what's being listed or not. This leads to players deciding its best just to join them, rather than try to compete.
CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
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BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Honestly, I believe ESO could use better gold sinks for those who have obscene amounts of wealth in game. Some of these people have more gold than the could spend spend within the life of the game8 -
Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭How is that a problem? And, more importantly, how can the system prevent that? You have your solution, join them!
This is less of a problem on PC with TTC. If you have the best price for an item, someone will buy it, regardless of your guild reputation. Most people just buy things where they are, big guilds just happen to have a wide variety of items and a steady supply.Edited by Elwendryll on November 14, 2018 9:17AMPC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH14 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since the current guild trading system is completely dependant on winning the bid for the trader in the popular areas, the gap between casual and elite/hardcore trading guilds will necessarily become larger and larger.
But the real monopoly is created through item flippers, who vaccum all the other traders clean of specific high-end expensive items, and resell them in their traders for a huge profit, essentially creating a monopoly and earning large sums by doing very little work themselves. All it takes is the starting gold to ensure the monopoly.
There's no way to break this monopoly, if you list something at a more reasonable price, it gets sucked up by the vacuum cleaners and relisted 5 minutes after at the inflated price.
That's why prices are spinning out of control for the most expensive items, which continue to rise in price even though they're already in the millions. Of course, Master Merchant addon and Tamriel Trade Center website makes flipping items and reselling them a million times easier (PC) than it would have been without these addons (console).
Not sure what the appropriate solution is, and knowing ZOS they don't give a hoot anyway, but flipping items and reselling aided by MM and TTC is surely ruining the entire trading business on the PC server, while funneling more profit - and more taxes - through the established top 5 guilds.14 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Larger trade guilds put a lot work to get to where they are. Smaller guilds looking to expand should encourage members to not only recruit, but advertise where their trader is located in popular zones, and inform the players in that zone what items they can expect to find if they choose to shop there.13 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »
But the real monopoly is created through item flippers, who vaccum all the other traders clean of specific high-end expensive items, and resell them in their traders for a huge profit, essentially creating a monopoly and earning large sums by doing very little work themselves. All it takes is the starting gold to ensure the monopoly.
There's no way to break this monopoly, if you list something at a more reasonable price, it gets sucked up by the vacuum cleaners and relisted 5 minutes after at the inflated price.
There are good attempts. In EQ2 there have been sales crates for your house. If people travel to the house the price is lower as if they buy it from the the broker window. This works only with a global search. Its not 100% perfect, but the vacuum cleaners need to waste time for traveling. Tor grab all "cheap" hardeners it might take an hour or more, depending on the available offers.4 -
OneKhajiitCrimeWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭On xbox EU we have a number of guilds who maintain strong presences in the main areas by having multiples of the guild or trading alliances with other guilds.
Off the top of my head we have:
Arc, Arc 2 and Arc 3.
League of Assassins and LoA2.
Mat Masters and Mat Masters 2.
Traders of Nirn 1 and 2.
Probably forgetting a few others who have multiples as well but meh, whatever.
Generally a lot of the top guilds on my server encourage going around every trader to find the bargains, farming mats or farming the "next big thing" in weapons and jewellery.
When you consider that we do this without TTC to tell us where the bargains are and some spend like 3-4 hours searching the stores.
Most times the level between the "Elite" traders and the small guys is just 2 things, money and miles.
Do you know how to save gold up? Do you donate to your guild to strengthen it and push it towards that spot?
How far do you go to get top items to flip? Do you check outlaws refuge traders?
Or ones in the middle of nowhere?
How far do you go to put your guild in that spot?
That's all it is, just like real life. The hard working and savvy traders rise to the top.Dark Flare is the Beginning, Radiant is the End. Hail the Light Bringers!8 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »
But the real monopoly is created through item flippers, who vaccum all the other traders clean of specific high-end expensive items, and resell them in their traders for a huge profit, essentially creating a monopoly and earning large sums by doing very little work themselves. All it takes is the starting gold to ensure the monopoly.
There's no way to break this monopoly, if you list something at a more reasonable price, it gets sucked up by the vacuum cleaners and relisted 5 minutes after at the inflated price.
There are good attempts. In EQ2 there have been sales crates for your house. If people travel to the house the price is lower as if they buy it from the the broker window. This works only with a global search. Its not 100% perfect, but the vacuum cleaners need to waste time for traveling. Tor grab all "cheap" hardeners it might take an hour or more, depending on the available offers.
You heavily underestimate how long it takes to go around the whole world and grab all the cheap items from out of the way traders. Even with addons on PC, not even talking about base game search UI on console.3 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »
But the real monopoly is created through item flippers, who vaccum all the other traders clean of specific high-end expensive items, and resell them in their traders for a huge profit, essentially creating a monopoly and earning large sums by doing very little work themselves. All it takes is the starting gold to ensure the monopoly.
There's no way to break this monopoly, if you list something at a more reasonable price, it gets sucked up by the vacuum cleaners and relisted 5 minutes after at the inflated price.
There are good attempts. In EQ2 there have been sales crates for your house. If people travel to the house the price is lower as if they buy it from the the broker window. This works only with a global search. Its not 100% perfect, but the vacuum cleaners need to waste time for traveling. Tor grab all "cheap" hardeners it might take an hour or more, depending on the available offers.
You heavily underestimate how long it takes to go around the whole world and grab all the cheap items from out of the way traders. Even with addons on PC, not even talking about base game search UI on console.
The amount of item flippers and resellers on PC EU is more than enough to ensure that every "good deal" is gone from a trader within 10 minutes or less of being listed there, and shortly thereafter being relisted in one of the Craglorn guilds for 10x the original price.7 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is over 200 traders in game. That alone means no monopoly. The hot spots are popular for traders initially because they are in high traffic areas. Those hot spots then become popular for buyers because there is a better chance of finding the items they want with less hassles involved. Personally I don't think flipping is a problem but if others do there is an easy fix. Convince players to spend some time at the out of the way places before heading to the popular trading hubs. It doesn't take much time to hit a couple of out of the way traders as you go about playing the game.
You also have to remember for some players in these trading guilds the best part of the game is trading. They put a lot of time into getting those guilds where they are at. I would bet the time involved easily rivals the time trials guilds spend making a run for the leader board. They are good at what they do because they spend a lot of game time getting good. Some people spend hours in front of a practice dummy, some spend hours generating revenue. People shouldn't complain about a gap in results when they are unwilling to put in the time to reach the same level. It is akin to complaining that some players can run vMA in forty minutes when it takes others several hours spanning a couple of days.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."13 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People shouldn't complain about a gap in results when they are unwilling to put in the time to reach the same level. It is akin to complaining that some players can run vMA in forty minutes when it takes others several hours spanning a couple of days.
I make millions every week in my 5 trade guilds, 2 of them being the top 2 trade guilds on my server, and the 3 others being affiliate guilds.
Difference is, I don't flip items or resell, I sell surplus mats and items, and items I have crafted myself.
This was never a question of "time put in" or "expertise" or even envy. Some make their business through honest means and everyone else can easily compete with them by selling the same stuff in the free market if they wish, some make their business flipping high-end expensive items, and have the means to buy up all the competing sales and effectively create a monopoly.
If you can't see that then I guess the point went over your head.
There's a reason why every modern state has strict laws regarding monopoly, and why it is regulated in order to promote even competition. There's a reason why Apple, Amazon and Google have all been scrutinized heavily by the EU commission and even issues multimillion fines due to unfair advantages towards their competitors.
A monopoly does not benefit the customer, it does not benefit the competitors, the monopoly only benefits one with the monopoly.
Edited by Carbonised on November 14, 2018 10:21AM11 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Perhaps when it comes to bidding for traders, have one bid amount and make the winner decided by that lovely rng. That would shake things up and is doable.
A lottery for the traders....Edited by Girl_Number8 on November 14, 2018 10:25AM3 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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You can do flipping but the reason some items is so expensive is as you say its lots of players with insane amounts of gold.Carbonised wrote: »That's why prices are spinning out of control for the most expensive items, which continue to rise in price even though they're already in the millions. Of course, Master Merchant addon and Tamriel Trade Center website makes flipping items and reselling them a million times easier (PC) than it would have been without these addons (console).
Not sure what the appropriate solution is, and knowing ZOS they don't give a hoot anyway, but flipping items and reselling aided by MM and TTC is surely ruining the entire trading business on the PC server, while funneling more profit - and more taxes - through the established top 5 guilds.
Then they start competing for rare items price will skyrocket.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
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You can do flipping but the reason some items is so expensive is as you say its lots of players with insane amounts of gold.Carbonised wrote: »That's why prices are spinning out of control for the most expensive items, which continue to rise in price even though they're already in the millions. Of course, Master Merchant addon and Tamriel Trade Center website makes flipping items and reselling them a million times easier (PC) than it would have been without these addons (console).
Not sure what the appropriate solution is, and knowing ZOS they don't give a hoot anyway, but flipping items and reselling aided by MM and TTC is surely ruining the entire trading business on the PC server, while funneling more profit - and more taxes - through the established top 5 guilds.
Then they start competing for rare items price will skyrocket.
Flipping is also a part of it. Someone might get lucky and find a rare item and list it at a price at a trader. Now, I don't mind if someone else gets there and buys it, then he got a good deal. But you can reast assured that it will be snatched up by someone else within minutes and resold in Craglorn or one of the other hot spots, for some easy profit. Which essentially eradicates the possibility for anyone to get a good deal, since everything will be flipped until it reaches the maximum price. It also doesn't benefit the original seller, as the additional profit is "stolen" by the flipper.
Case in point, yesterday one of the very rare purple Dwarven recipes was listed at a trader for 50k, it was snatched up within minutes and resold for 2m+ at a top trader. Of course, MM and TTC only makes this process much more easy for the reseller.4 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »
You can do flipping but the reason some items is so expensive is as you say its lots of players with insane amounts of gold.Carbonised wrote: »That's why prices are spinning out of control for the most expensive items, which continue to rise in price even though they're already in the millions. Of course, Master Merchant addon and Tamriel Trade Center website makes flipping items and reselling them a million times easier (PC) than it would have been without these addons (console).
Not sure what the appropriate solution is, and knowing ZOS they don't give a hoot anyway, but flipping items and reselling aided by MM and TTC is surely ruining the entire trading business on the PC server, while funneling more profit - and more taxes - through the established top 5 guilds.
Then they start competing for rare items price will skyrocket.
Flipping is also a part of it. Someone might get lucky and find a rare item and list it at a price at a trader. Now, I don't mind if someone else gets there and buys it, then he got a good deal. But you can reast assured that it will be snatched up by someone else within minutes and resold in Craglorn or one of the other hot spots, for some easy profit. Which essentially eradicates the possibility for anyone to get a good deal, since everything will be flipped until it reaches the maximum price. It also doesn't benefit the original seller, as the additional profit is "stolen" by the flipper.
Case in point, yesterday one of the very rare purple Dwarven recipes was listed at a trader for 50k, it was snatched up within minutes and resold for 2m+ at a top trader. Of course, MM and TTC only makes this process much more easy for the reseller.
Well, someone got there and bought it, so he got a good deal. It's not really relevant what he does with it next. Of course people will hunt for good deals. And in your example even a moderately involved player would've noticed how underpriced that recipe was. You do not have to be a dedicated flipper to put 2 and 2 together. A deal like that would've been gone in 10 minutes anyway.
And how do you think they get all those deals within minutes? Those guys dedicate time to run around all the traders looking for cheap items. There is nothing unfair and anyone can do it.
And no profit is stolen. Original seller listed the item for the price he wanted for it. He had all the power to list it for 2 millions too.
typosEdited by Royaji on November 14, 2018 10:43AM5 -
It frustrates me. They are always starting new guilds and affiliate guilds etc and have the money to buy a good trader spot for that new guild despite virtually nothing being listed for sale, just so they can advertise it as their trader spot when spamming zone chat with recruitment messages.
With the ridiculous limit of 5 on guild memberships too, and guild stores being the only places you can sell your collection of items for a reasonable price, most people’s slots are taken up by several of these “monopoly guilds” as they need to be able to sell their things, and these guilds offer priority in their secondary guilds to members of the primary. It leaves little room for small guilds to even get their foot in the door and show how good they can be as most players are already in 5 guilds, and most people feel an obligation to be in at least one of these “monopoly guilds” to ensure they can sell items week on week.6 -
mxxo✭✭✭✭Flipping could be stopped by a resell countdown or an overprice limit. Lets say you can only add 50% of the price you got it for. Another method would be to decrease the rarity of certain items.
Sub-Guilds shouldnt be allowed.Edited by mxxo on November 14, 2018 10:44AM2 -
WaltherCarraway✭✭✭✭✭Eventually we're gonna ask zos to hire experts to design economy of this game.Back from my last hiatus. 2021 a new start.0
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LadyDestiny✭✭✭✭✭I miss the days like in star wars galaxies. Awesome crafting system and could put up merchant tents, venders in your house and sell anything. Make really good money and not have to depend on a guild. Anyone could visit your vender, and you could actually search for things on the galactic auction and get a waypoint to where your items that you purchased were located. Eso has a really sad system especially on console. We been asking for the ability to even search for specific things, but Zos doesn't listen and won't implement a better system. Without any mods on console to help it's just cr*p. I really do not like this guild trader system, at least not on console. PC has a much better advantage with it.4 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Flipping could be stopped by a resell countdown or an overprice limit. Lets say you can only add 50% of the price you got it for. Another method would be to decrease the rarity of certain items.
Sub-Guilds shouldnt be allowed.
Most flipping happens within 10-20% of the original price. Those "resell it for 10x" cases are an exceptional outlier.
But how do you technically prohibit people from having sub-guilds? They are only affiliated through non-in-game means. And noone is going to add some human input to police guild system.2 -
Gargath✭✭✭✭✭
✭I never saw a good price in those so called elitist guild traders located in Craglorn. This place is called the best for many mainly because of ridiculous requirements for the members, but the goods/prices there are not better than in other hubs e.g. Wayrest, where I usually trade. I visit Craglorn from time to time to check for differences and don't find any. Thus I prefer to sell in Wayrest for an easy 10k weekly minimum, than in Craglorn struggling for 100k minimum.
Say no to elitist guilds and monopolies - come buy in Wayrest
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I also like the smaller hubs and single traders in the wilds, they also play their role. Prices there are usually fair low, and must be fair for the trader to survive. I guess these guilds don't care much about high profit or a minimum sales, which usually is best for newbies.PC EU (PL): 14 characters. ESO player since 06.08.2015. Farkas finest quote: "Some people don't think I'm smart. Those people get my fist. But you, I like."3 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It’s by definition not a monopoly when thousands of players are all competing to make the biggest sales. These aren’t companies where one big boss controls all the funds, the players are who make the guilds, and they’re the ones that walk away rewarded for their time. Some guilds are so successful they have overflow into sister guilds when space runs out, which are also complete valid guilds.
Some spends hours flipping underpriced items, that’s a legitimate method of making gold. Same as farming mats, or running vet dungeons for motifs, or selling skyreach runs.3 -
mxxo✭✭✭✭Flipping could be stopped by a resell countdown or an overprice limit. Lets say you can only add 50% of the price you got it for. Another method would be to decrease the rarity of certain items.
Sub-Guilds shouldnt be allowed.
Most flipping happens within 10-20% of the original price. Those "resell it for 10x" cases are an exceptional outlier.
But how do you technically prohibit people from having sub-guilds? They are only affiliated through non-in-game means. And noone is going to add some human input to police guild system.
I get it, you like flipping and you want to keep it that way, but it´s just not nice in all cases. That flipping happens often in a 10-20% doesnt make it unnecessary to have an overprice limit.
Sub-Guilds: It would be already a positive sign if it wouldnt be allowed. Some Guilds are even named I, II and III. You don´t need a police to forbid it, but with the status of not being allowed this problem would already decrease.
Btw... i would rather enjoy it, if you tell openly that you like flipping instead of trying to find "errors" in the proposals.Edited by mxxo on November 14, 2018 11:08AM3 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »
You can do flipping but the reason some items is so expensive is as you say its lots of players with insane amounts of gold.Carbonised wrote: »That's why prices are spinning out of control for the most expensive items, which continue to rise in price even though they're already in the millions. Of course, Master Merchant addon and Tamriel Trade Center website makes flipping items and reselling them a million times easier (PC) than it would have been without these addons (console).
Not sure what the appropriate solution is, and knowing ZOS they don't give a hoot anyway, but flipping items and reselling aided by MM and TTC is surely ruining the entire trading business on the PC server, while funneling more profit - and more taxes - through the established top 5 guilds.
Then they start competing for rare items price will skyrocket.
Flipping is also a part of it. Someone might get lucky and find a rare item and list it at a price at a trader. Now, I don't mind if someone else gets there and buys it, then he got a good deal. But you can reast assured that it will be snatched up by someone else within minutes and resold in Craglorn or one of the other hot spots, for some easy profit. Which essentially eradicates the possibility for anyone to get a good deal, since everything will be flipped until it reaches the maximum price. It also doesn't benefit the original seller, as the additional profit is "stolen" by the flipper.
Case in point, yesterday one of the very rare purple Dwarven recipes was listed at a trader for 50k, it was snatched up within minutes and resold for 2m+ at a top trader. Of course, MM and TTC only makes this process much more easy for the reseller.
Well, someone got there and bought it, so he got a good deal. It's not really relevant what he does with it next. Of course people will hunt for good deals. And in your example even a moderately involved player would've noticed how underpriced that recipe was. You do not have to be a dedicated flipper to put 2 and 2 together. A deal like that would've been gone in 10 minutes anyway.
And how do you think they get all those deals within minutes? Those guys dedicate time to run around all the traders looking for cheap items. There is nothing unfair and anyone can do it.
And no profit is stolen. Original seller listed the item for the price he wanted for it. He had all the power to list it for 2 millions too.
typos
Flipping creates a false demand. If the people who actually needed the items bought them, th eprices would be lower. If everyone who's looking for easy profits buy them, the prices go up. Can't believe I have explain economics 101.
This example was just the most recent one, it happens on a much more regular basis, especially with rare motifs and furniture recipes.
If your logic was applied to the real world, the economy systems would collapse in an instant. I already hinted at the trading and monopoly regulations in the EU, and they are there in the US and the WTO as well.
There's no reason to think that unhealthy economic phenomenon are no less unhealthy in a virtual economy like this one.6 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would rather enjoy a place where I can search the entire game's item list in one go like 99% of the other MMO's on the market and i've seen many in game say as well not everyone has the time to spend countless hours on end to search every single store every day with a 2-5 minute loading screen to each zone.5 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Flipping could be stopped by a resell countdown or an overprice limit. Lets say you can only add 50% of the price you got it for. Another method would be to decrease the rarity of certain items.
Sub-Guilds shouldnt be allowed.
Most flipping happens within 10-20% of the original price. Those "resell it for 10x" cases are an exceptional outlier.
But how do you technically prohibit people from having sub-guilds? They are only affiliated through non-in-game means. And noone is going to add some human input to police guild system.
I get it, you like flipping and you want to keep it that way, but it´s just not nice in all cases. That flipping happens often in a 10-20% doesnt make it unnecessary to have an overprice limit.
Sub-Guilds: It would be already a positive sign if it wouldnt be allowed. Some Guilds are even named I, II and III. You don´t need a police to forbid it, but with the status of not being allowed this problem would already decrease.
Btw... i would rather enjoy it, if you tell openly that you like flipping instead of trying to find "errors" in the proposals.
I actually don't. I never do any flipping because even with Awesome Guild Store the search system infuriates me. I just can't be bothered to sit in front of the screen for several minutes waiting for it to load at every store.
At the same time I do not think that flipping is something unfair and should be restricted or prohibited. Not because I do it. Just because I do not think so.5 -
mxxo✭✭✭✭Flipping could be stopped by a resell countdown or an overprice limit. Lets say you can only add 50% of the price you got it for. Another method would be to decrease the rarity of certain items.
Sub-Guilds shouldnt be allowed.
Most flipping happens within 10-20% of the original price. Those "resell it for 10x" cases are an exceptional outlier.
But how do you technically prohibit people from having sub-guilds? They are only affiliated through non-in-game means. And noone is going to add some human input to police guild system.
I get it, you like flipping and you want to keep it that way, but it´s just not nice in all cases. That flipping happens often in a 10-20% doesnt make it unnecessary to have an overprice limit.
Sub-Guilds: It would be already a positive sign if it wouldnt be allowed. Some Guilds are even named I, II and III. You don´t need a police to forbid it, but with the status of not being allowed this problem would already decrease.
Btw... i would rather enjoy it, if you tell openly that you like flipping instead of trying to find "errors" in the proposals.
I actually don't. I never do any flipping because even with Awesome Guild Store the search system infuriates me. I just can't be bothered to sit in front of the screen for several minutes waiting for it to load at every store.
At the same time I do not think that flipping is something unfair and should be restricted or prohibited. Not because I do it. Just because I do not think so.
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