Your views toward Trading Guild Monopolies

kargen27

Carbonised wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

People shouldn't complain about a gap in results when they are unwilling to put in the time to reach the same level. It is akin to complaining that some players can run vMA in forty minutes when it takes others several hours spanning a couple of days.

I make millions every week in my 5 trade guilds, 2 of them being the top 2 trade guilds on my server, and the 3 others being affiliate guilds.
Difference is, I don't flip items or resell, I sell surplus mats and items, and items I have crafted myself.

This was never a question of "time put in" or "expertise" or even envy. Some make their business through honest means and everyone else can easily compete with them by selling the same stuff in the free market if they wish, some make their business flipping high-end expensive items, and have the means to buy up all the competing sales and effectively create a monopoly.

If you can't see that then I guess the point went over your head.

There's a reason why every modern state has strict laws regarding monopoly, and why it is regulated in order to promote even competition. There's a reason why Apple, Amazon and Google have all been scrutinized heavily by the EU commission and even issues multimillion fines due to unfair advantages towards their competitors.

A monopoly does not benefit the customer, it does not benefit the competitors, the monopoly only benefits one with the monopoly.

I see perfectly what you are saying. You are claiming a monopoly exists. I am telling you with there being over 200 guild trader spots in the game a monopoly can not exist. Sure there are players that flip items in the game. I know at least two people that do that almost exclusively. They are not members of any cartel of trade guilds. They are simply players that enjoy hunting for bargains then flipping them.

And what makes you think flipping items isn't an honest means of making gold? Are they in some way forcing people to list their items at bargain prices? Are they somehow forcing people to buy items at extremely high prices?

Nobody has the time to monitor every trade location in the game all day every day. Even with data bases and add-ons they simply can't do it. They may have the gold to control the market but they lack the time and other resources involved. The closest players come to a monopoly is when they get on the Public Test Server and discover an update coming will increase the value of some item. They then try and grab up that item before the change goes live so they can take full advantage. Doing this they have at best a week to take advantage of high prices. Even then they do not have a monopoly as a lot of players adopt this strategy. Others spend time in the PTS learning where new rare items drop and how best to farm those rare items. They then rush when update goes live to put their knowledge to good use and provide those items to the market first. Point is they put the time in to make gold. They do not have a monopoly.

This of course is a two way street. You also need buyers for these strategies to work. There are players in the game for instance that want the new furniture recipes as soon as they drop. They are willing to pay high prices to get those recipes as quick as possible. There are players that are willing to do the grind for those recipes then put them up for sale. All involved are happy. The casual player isn't going to be able to afford those recipes in the early stages after release but that doesn't mean there is a monopoly. And as anything found in the guild store can be found elsewhere in the game players can decide if the gold something costs makes up for the time they would have to spend getting it themselves.

Yes there are players that flip items in the game but they do not nor have they ever had a monopoly. You yourself admit the ability to make millions in a very short time just selling more common items. Any person in the game can do that same thing meaning any person in the game can compete with the flippers when it comes to buying the rare items.

Wolfpaw

Your views toward Trading Guild Monopolies?

It's a garbage system that should be replaced with a global auction house/trader.

DreamsUnderStars

They should put in a global AH, in the main hub cities and link all the guild traders to that. Guild traders would get the money from auctions bought off that. They can also have their spots out in the world. More exposure for them more money for them.

Also allow players that don't trade enough (for whatever reason) to be profitable for a trade guild to sell on a traders site for like 10% of the profits or something reasonable.

OR they could just make all the 0 gold crafting mats worth 1 gold and players can actually make a little money on their own at the vendors...

bigdeal15

geonsocal wrote: »

I always feel a little sad for those poor guild traders located out in the middle of nowhere, or, buried deep in some dank outlaw refuge all by themselves...



i'm still in my very first trading guild which i joined - i still contribute gold to the guild every once in a while...it makes me happy to see when they get a guild trader slot...

it does matter to people...

Agreed. I often come across a guild trader out In the sticks and stop to buy something whether I need it or not. Just to help out and motivate other merchants.

Ertosi

Carbonised wrote: »

Flipping creates a false demand. If the people who actually needed the items bought them, th eprices would be lower. If everyone who's looking for easy profits buy them, the prices go up. Can't believe I have explain economics 101.

Sometimes, but often its about meeting demand, not making it. I make most of my sales from flipping and the process I use is looking at my guild vendors for more common items that are completely missing but I know others will need. Then I search other vendors for said missing items, buy them and resell them. Am I going to price them at the price I bought them for? lol Nope. Its about making a profit, so they're priced accordingly to how long it took to find elsewhere. Am I creating false demand? I'm sure some would argue so, but the reality is I'm providing a service by taking the time to locate goods scattered in lesser traveled vendors and reposting them in high traffic guilds. This is also economics 101.


Edit: To the OP's original statement, I think the questions is moot as there is no such thing as trading monopolies in this game. For there to be a monopoly, a guild would have to be the sole source for a particular item or resource which is simply not possible. In fact, the OP is confusing the definition of monopoly with brand recognition.

geonsocal

Tholian1 wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

I always feel a little sad for those poor guild traders located out in the middle of nowhere, or, buried deep in some dank outlaw refuge all by themselves...



i'm still in my very first trading guild which i joined - i still contribute gold to the guild every once in a while...it makes me happy to see when they get a guild trader slot...

it does matter to people...

The long loading screens make the outlaw refuge traders an absolute last resort for me. Usually I won’t even bother.

you're right...in general though - i'm at the stage of the game, where - there's not a lot i want or need to buy...and, if there is something which i need to pick up, the chances are very good i'm going to have to shop at one of capital cities (or rawl'kha) to get it...

bigdeal15 wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

I always feel a little sad for those poor guild traders located out in the middle of nowhere, or, buried deep in some dank outlaw refuge all by themselves...



i'm still in my very first trading guild which i joined - i still contribute gold to the guild every once in a while...it makes me happy to see when they get a guild trader slot...

it does matter to people...

Agreed. I often come across a guild trader out In the sticks and stop to buy something whether I need it or not. Just to help out and motivate other merchants.

that's awesome

there's a big difference in this game between the haves and have-nots...i would imagine most of us here on the forums are in the "haves" category...

it is important though to be able to remember the experience of just starting out, or, being able to relate to those more casual players...

for a small guild - having any trader is a big deal...for a new or less frequent player seeing something sold is a huge deal...big moral boost...

to a large extent it's those newer players and casual players which are helping in keeping these servers up and running...

kargen27

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Your views toward Trading Guild Monopolies?

It's a garbage system that should be replaced with a global auction house/trader.

Yeah cause then we can have real monopolies.

Dubhliam

It takes a LOT of effort and knowledge to manage such guilds at the level they are doing it.

Also, the people "vacuuming" items from other traders to sell them in their big guild...
That is also a time - consuming chore to do this. Also, you need some research and knowledge to be able to do such things.

This system we have is exactly the right thing to prevent more players to do the same thing from a single HUB because it wouldn't be such a tedious job to resell items.

These people put in a lot of EFFORT for their profits.

yurimodin

BigBragg wrote: »

Honestly, I believe ESO could use better gold sinks for those who have obscene amounts of wealth in game. Some of these people have more gold than the could spend spend within the life of the game

have you tried jewelry crafting O.o

Royaji

yurimodin wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Honestly, I believe ESO could use better gold sinks for those who have obscene amounts of wealth in game. Some of these people have more gold than the could spend spend within the life of the game

have you tried jewelry crafting O.o

Not a gold sink since you can't buy jewelry crating mats from NPCs. Unless you buy gold jewels from Golden and decon them but come on, nobody does that. Guild traders actually make a solid gold sink with millions of gold vanishing from the game every week.

Defilted

None of this talk stops anyone from just joining a guild and trading.

So some guilds are managed better and are more successful. Some are less successful. If you can do it better for free then make your own guild.

I play on xbox were this system works better because prices are all over the place.There is not one place to price check. Different guilds have different prices. It works great on console. Always deals to be had.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I dont have a lot to contribute because mostly I dont really care, but I will say this. I am in one of the largest (by sales) if not THE largest guild on PC/NA. We have had the same trader spot since, well forever. We have one sub guild that I am aware of, and it has has the same spot as well for as long as I can remember.

I dont claim to be a huge trader by any stretch. I am usually right around our minimum sales requirement of 500k, but sometimes I go weeks without listing a darn thing, and occasionally I will sell a few million in a week, typically shortly after a patch.

I think people over state the collusion that exists among active traders in the same guild. I have never been invited to a secret meeting where we set prices on gold mats or the latest rage item. People sell for what they want.

I do believe that an Item in my guild will fetch more than in some remote outpost, but that is a function of foot traffic. If you want an infused Spell Strat staff for example, our guild certainly has a few listed, and people know it. I think it is more about convenience than some conspiracy.

Also, call me crazy, but if you are worried about big players (we have billionaires in ESO) manipulating markets, I think that would be easier to accomplish in a global auction house.

BWS2K

ArchMikem wrote: »

Having several Traders at once creates a Monopoly on the Player market as more and more players will see your Guild name and associate a level of "professionalism" with it, thus whenever they desire an item, they'll think about your Trader first. This can ultimately hurt other smaller Guilds as they won't even be considered since their name is unfamiliar, regardless of what's being listed or not. This leads to players deciding its best just to join them, rather than try to compete.

I can't speak to much of this issue but I will point out that there's no monopoly when the vast majority of items are obtainable by the player. They aren't selling items, they're selling time. How much is your time worth to purchase the item rather than farm it? This is a significant difference between the 'real world' and ESO's marketplace (and why I, personally, insist that bots are a bad thing for the game, for instance).

geonsocal

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I dont have a lot to contribute because mostly I dont really care,

my favorite comment in a long long time...i need to add this to my signature block...done...thanks...

i know - you don't care...

generalmyrick

this topic is so sad and representative of why there should be a auction house.

its never going to happen...so we should stop caring, really...sorry...but that's the message = "|et the monopolies have it."

idk

Some people know how to run a trade guild well and some just do not. It is not surprising that some of those that are skilled can do it. Though I do not see an abundance of sister trade guilds, I do see them in good and bad areas.

I remember a trade guild that was good early on. The founding leader left the game and the successors dropped the ball big time and the guild became a shell of its former self.

One of the officers often complained here in the forums feeling entitled to being able to get into a good location even though they were part of the downfall. Oddly enough, good leadership came to lead the guild again, replacing the entitled poor leadership and that trade guild is not in the best city in a prime spot.

So it just demonstrates that good leadership makes all the difference. It really does to be said for any guild. Plenty of good leaders and a healthy does of poor leadership as well.

Sylvermynx

Well.... it's not monopoly. It's also not really a fun thing to do. I'm.... not into joining a guild so I can sell stuff that in nearly every other game you just use the AH to move.

This is why I'm doing crafting writs on 12 girls. I have a decent amount of in game gold now (around 2 million in 5 months) - and that's all I'm willing to do. I occasionally buy at the traders - I bought all 7 pieces of the Swamp Jelly pet a couple of days back - but mostly I don't use them.

Mostly - I get my own mats as my girls are questing/exploring. I haven't run out of mats for whatever since my third day in game.... I want an AH. That's what I'm used to. I fully realize that's not happening in this game, because if the devs changed up to that, the people in those huge trading guilds would leave wholesale. Nope. Ain't happ'nin.

kargen27

generalmyrick wrote: »

this topic is so sad and representative of why there should be a auction house.

its never going to happen...so we should stop caring, really...sorry...but that's the message = "|et the monopolies have it."

yes because having rare items for sale in one location will make it much tougher to control prices of that item than having that item scattered across 200 locations.

RavenSworn

jaws343 wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

goldenflameslinger wrote: »

It takes a ton of work to run a trading guild. If people are willing to put in the hours to be a "Monopoly," I cannot hate them for it. They didn't get that powerful by doing nothing. They put in the time, earned the gold, made connections, and now they are the ruling class....sounds a lot like real life. I don't hate Jeff Bezos for dominating the world with Amazon. If anything, I hate myself for not having the idea or the drive to have done it myself.

its not about dominating the world, its about allowing some chance for the smaller, casual guilds to be able to sell as well. If they want to control the main areas like in hubs and capital cities, go right ahead. But that doesnt mean that there isnt any mom and pop store somewhere else is it?

i respect the ton of work to run a trading guild, i really do. but again, there has to be some other chances to be given by these guilds. Each time a new dlc or chapter is put out, what really puts me off is the fact that "shadow" guilds are being used to 'book' the place out. That's just plain wrong to me.

But the smaller guilds do have a chance to sell items. Just undercut the pricing of the larger guilds in the better locations. You seem to be under the impression that a flipped item sells really fast. But that is mostly not the case. Often, those flipped items sit for a few days to a week before selling at the increased price. Why? Because buyers try to find the best deal. So always be the best deal in your trader. It shouldn't concern you if a flipper buys the item or a person who needs it buys it. The only concern a seller should ever have is if the item is selling. If it is, then nothing else matters. If it isn't, you priced it to high. Period.

There are no monopolies. And you aren't actually complaining about the actual problems that monopolies inflict on an economy. Everyone railing against these "monopolies" are not doing it to protect the buyers from price inflation. The complaint is that for some reason you can't sell items at the same price so it must be someone else's fault. But if flippers are listing an item at 10% above its actual cost and you are selling it for what it's worth, you both are making profit and you are probably selling items much faster than the flipper. The buyer is irrelevant and the monopoly is non-existant.

Monopoly would also mean that there is no other way for you to do business in the market. Which isn't the case. Smaller guilds still have traders and smaller guilds still make sales. I am in 5 guilds, 3 are in capital traders and 2 are out of the way. I often find that I can funnel more sales through the 2 that are out of the way by lowering the prices a bit and still making a profit than I do by pricing to cost in the major traders.

So I guess to sum this all up, this is a learn to trade issue.

And to add to what others are saying, on console, it takes time to flip items. It takes time to search for specific items. i think it took me an hour yesterday to search every single trader hub in every zone (not even counting the backwoods traders) just for a few specific items I needed. Checking every trader for every item that may be a deal takes considerably longer to do. And considering that items are added to traders in a constant flow, this is impossible to stay on top of. It just isn't happening that 1 person or guild is getting all of the deals all of the time, or even 1% of the time.

I think we misunderstand each other. It's not the question of flipping items or undercutting. That's sales, or just basic buy and sell. Buy low sell high is as old as time.

What I'm getting at is the fact that most guilds don't even have a slight chance of selling it to the public because while there maybe 200 trading locations, a percentage of it are being occupied by the same guilds. This business of creating a new guild, bid for a spot and then disbanding it to open up the bid for the real trading guild is, IMHO exploitive.

Its like a big retail company, creating a shadow company and coming into the small towns and basically buy all the plots, over bidding any other townsfolk that would love to have a small startup in their own town. And when it's done, the shadow company disband, selling the plot to the big retail company for peanuts. That's bogus business practice.

EllieBlue

Most big, established trading guilds did not just stroll into Craglorn or Mournhold or RawlKha on the day they were created. When my trading guild was created 3.5 yrs ago, I had 5mil gold in my bank when we started. Our bids were funded by myself and a few close guildies/friends as well as weekly donations from our guildies. Our first few spots were places far out in Stormhaven, Rivenspire, Stonefalls and a few others. 2nd month, we moved to Marbruk and a few other minor cities. The 3rd month we moved to Orsinium and stayed there for another 3 months to further stabilise. The 6th month, as our finances got a little better, our members a bit more solid - as in more people are selling more than 1 tomato, 1 potato, we started looking at bigger picture. In my mind, I have always had Mournhold as our final destination, as my ultimate goal. Never cared for Craglorn. We fought for a spot in Mournhold for 3 months long and it was a bloody battle but we eventually won and got our spot, fair and square. By the end of 12th months since creation, we have spent more than 200mil - GM own gold, taxes and donations from our dear guildies. Along the way during our 2nd and 3rd years in Mournhold, we've had several more battles but we persevered. Without our loyal, understanding and good sellers guildies, we would not have made it out of the far out in the boonies to Mournhold. It did not happen overnight. We clean our roster every few days so at least 90% of our guildies are made up of people that are interested and capable of selling because we need the taxes to help fund our weekly bids. We also believe that if our guild is only selling 20m on that spot when the rest of the other guilds are doing 60-100mil sales, then we are not ready for that spot and only deprived a better, more deserving guild and the buyers in that spot. So we pushed ourselves more so we know that when we get a spot in Mournhold, we will deserve that spot and as good as our neighbours' guilds and our sales will prove it. GM have multiples account so we can sell more, we farm motifs, mats etc so we can make steady gold to fund our weekly bids. The main city spot did not fall on our lap. We dedicated our play time to recruiting, maintaining guild roster for better weekly sales, farming and selling to generate gold so we can bid bigger and win better spots. It takes up 80% of my playtime.

I often see a lot of smaller trading or casual guilds saying oh they have no opportunity to sell at the main spots etc. Things don't happen magically. GM and officers in those guilds in the main city spots sweats bucket every Sunday evening, our heart palpitates extra hard around 8 pm, we are on the edge of our seats waiting for 8.01pm when the tabard of winning guild appears. If you are willing to do the hard work required to propel your trading guild to the top, without a doubt you can but you must be willing to put in 150% into it, at least in the first 6 months. The success of your guild is in your hand and you are the one shaping the future of your guild. If you are not willing to put in all the work, at least as much as those that sit at the top, then you will remain where you are now.

As the other guy said, some pve players put hours of their playtime on practising their dps on dummies, some spend hours and weeks in vma, in vmol HM, in practising no death runs and more often than not, they master their craft, pvp players spend hours and days playing so they can stay on top of the leaderboard. GM of an established trading guild in main city spots spends hours and days getting their roster filled with people that sell by removing non-sellers and recruiting for hopefully, someone that does and making sure that there is enough money in the guild bank for the next bid, hopefully with a bit more reserve for when unexpected fight suddenly appear in your neighbourhood. At the end of the day, GMs are not complaining about all that we had to do to get where we are because obviously, no one made us do it so if we didn't want to do it, we wouldn't have. But you cannot expect to be at the top of your craft/game if you are not willing to put in the time and hard work.

swippy

Carbonised wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

That's why prices are spinning out of control for the most expensive items, which continue to rise in price even though they're already in the millions. Of course, Master Merchant addon and Tamriel Trade Center website makes flipping items and reselling them a million times easier (PC) than it would have been without these addons (console).
Not sure what the appropriate solution is, and knowing ZOS they don't give a hoot anyway, but flipping items and reselling aided by MM and TTC is surely ruining the entire trading business on the PC server, while funneling more profit - and more taxes - through the established top 5 guilds.

You can do flipping but the reason some items is so expensive is as you say its lots of players with insane amounts of gold.
Then they start competing for rare items price will skyrocket.

Flipping is also a part of it. Someone might get lucky and find a rare item and list it at a price at a trader. Now, I don't mind if someone else gets there and buys it, then he got a good deal. But you can reast assured that it will be snatched up by someone else within minutes and resold in Craglorn or one of the other hot spots, for some easy profit. Which essentially eradicates the possibility for anyone to get a good deal, since everything will be flipped until it reaches the maximum price. It also doesn't benefit the original seller, as the additional profit is "stolen" by the flipper.

Case in point, yesterday one of the very rare purple Dwarven recipes was listed at a trader for 50k, it was snatched up within minutes and resold for 2m+ at a top trader. Of course, MM and TTC only makes this process much more easy for the reseller.

Well, someone got there and bought it, so he got a good deal. It's not really relevant what he does with it next. Of course people will hunt for good deals. And in your example even a moderately involved player would've noticed how underpriced that recipe was. You do not have to be a dedicated flipper to put 2 and 2 together. A deal like that would've been gone in 10 minutes anyway.

And how do you think they get all those deals within minutes? Those guys dedicate time to run around all the traders looking for cheap items. There is nothing unfair and anyone can do it.

And no profit is stolen. Original seller listed the item for the price he wanted for it. He had all the power to list it for 2 millions too.

typos

Flipping creates a false demand. If the people who actually needed the items bought them, th eprices would be lower. If everyone who's looking for easy profits buy them, the prices go up. Can't believe I have explain economics 101.
This example was just the most recent one, it happens on a much more regular basis, especially with rare motifs and furniture recipes.

If your logic was applied to the real world, the economy systems would collapse in an instant. I already hinted at the trading and monopoly regulations in the EU, and they are there in the US and the WTO as well.
There's no reason to think that unhealthy economic phenomenon are no less unhealthy in a virtual economy like this one.

well that's just not true at all. the guy who owns your corner store doesn't need 10,000 candy bars for himself this month. he bought them from a warehouse for 60 cents each so he can "flip" them to walk-in customers for 89 cents. that Target store out in the suburbs didn't commission a batch of Wrangler jeans; those were bought wholesale so they can be flipped for a profit. this has been going on for centuries, so there's no way it collapses economic systems in an instant.

Wreuntzylla

kargen27 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

People shouldn't complain about a gap in results when they are unwilling to put in the time to reach the same level. It is akin to complaining that some players can run vMA in forty minutes when it takes others several hours spanning a couple of days.

I make millions every week in my 5 trade guilds, 2 of them being the top 2 trade guilds on my server, and the 3 others being affiliate guilds.
Difference is, I don't flip items or resell, I sell surplus mats and items, and items I have crafted myself.

This was never a question of "time put in" or "expertise" or even envy. Some make their business through honest means and everyone else can easily compete with them by selling the same stuff in the free market if they wish, some make their business flipping high-end expensive items, and have the means to buy up all the competing sales and effectively create a monopoly.

If you can't see that then I guess the point went over your head.

There's a reason why every modern state has strict laws regarding monopoly, and why it is regulated in order to promote even competition. There's a reason why Apple, Amazon and Google have all been scrutinized heavily by the EU commission and even issues multimillion fines due to unfair advantages towards their competitors.

A monopoly does not benefit the customer, it does not benefit the competitors, the monopoly only benefits one with the monopoly.

I see perfectly what you are saying. You are claiming a monopoly exists. I am telling you with there being over 200 guild trader spots in the game a monopoly can not exist. Sure there are players that flip items in the game. I know at least two people that do that almost exclusively. They are not members of any cartel of trade guilds. They are simply players that enjoy hunting for bargains then flipping them.

And what makes you think flipping items isn't an honest means of making gold? Are they in some way forcing people to list their items at bargain prices? Are they somehow forcing people to buy items at extremely high prices?

Nobody has the time to monitor every trade location in the game all day every day. Even with data bases and add-ons they simply can't do it. They may have the gold to control the market but they lack the time and other resources involved. The closest players come to a monopoly is when they get on the Public Test Server and discover an update coming will increase the value of some item. They then try and grab up that item before the change goes live so they can take full advantage. Doing this they have at best a week to take advantage of high prices. Even then they do not have a monopoly as a lot of players adopt this strategy. Others spend time in the PTS learning where new rare items drop and how best to farm those rare items. They then rush when update goes live to put their knowledge to good use and provide those items to the market first. Point is they put the time in to make gold. They do not have a monopoly.

This of course is a two way street. You also need buyers for these strategies to work. There are players in the game for instance that want the new furniture recipes as soon as they drop. They are willing to pay high prices to get those recipes as quick as possible. There are players that are willing to do the grind for those recipes then put them up for sale. All involved are happy. The casual player isn't going to be able to afford those recipes in the early stages after release but that doesn't mean there is a monopoly. And as anything found in the guild store can be found elsewhere in the game players can decide if the gold something costs makes up for the time they would have to spend getting it themselves.

Yes there are players that flip items in the game but they do not nor have they ever had a monopoly. You yourself admit the ability to make millions in a very short time just selling more common items. Any person in the game can do that same thing meaning any person in the game can compete with the flippers when it comes to buying the rare items.

The word they are looking for is Oligopoly. Nitpicking over the term they use doesn't change the fact that the goods are monopolized, by multiple concerns in case of an oligopoly.

Also, 200 ignores the fact that the hubs exist.

I can post an item for 150k on a clockwork merchant and never sell it but sell 3 of that item at a hub guild for 200k over the weekend. People don't have two hours to price compare, making it hub guild or languish.

Mr_Walker

swippy wrote: »

well that's just not true at all. the guy who owns your corner store doesn't need 10,000 candy bars for himself this month. he bought them from a warehouse for 60 cents each so he can "flip" them to walk-in customers for 89 cents. that Target store out in the suburbs didn't commission a batch of Wrangler jeans; those were bought wholesale so they can be flipped for a profit. this has been going on for centuries, so there's no way it collapses economic systems in an instant.

No no no. That's not flipping, all the examples you posted they provide a value added service.

kargen27

"What I'm getting at is the fact that most guilds don't even have a slight chance of selling it to the public because while there maybe 200 trading locations, a percentage of it are being occupied by the same guilds. This business of creating a new guild, bid for a spot and then disbanding it to open up the bid for the real trading guild is, IMHO exploitive."

Yes it is exploitative but that isn't the issue here. That is a separate issue and it needs to be addressed. Quick fix would be the trader is locked to the winning bid for the week whether that guild continues to exist or not. Even with that exploit each guild only gets one trader. They use the ghost guild to bid on a secondary spot in case they fail to get their preferred spot. Either way they end up with one trader for the week.

"The word they are looking for is Oligopoly. Nitpicking over the term they use doesn't change the fact that the goods are monopolized, by multiple concerns in case of an oligopoly."

Oligopoly also does not apply. Over 200 traders does not an oligopoly make. And no one saying hubs do not exist. Obviously there are preferred locations in the game where multiple traders are near one another. Those traders do have an advantage of location. They also come at a very steep price. The out of the way places do not get the foot traffic but the cost each week makes them easily affordable to most guilds. It takes a different mind set to make tons of gold at the out of the way places. Don't stick your rare items there at market value unless you are willing to wait a while. They are a great place to stick materials and other common good at market price though as those types of items move fairly well anywhere. My rings for decon still sell near market value even in guilds that do not have a trader accessible to people outside the guild. Sales are slowing but still there.

All that said I think it would be a good idea to put another trader at each location where there is a single trader. That means more guilds get to participate and those out in the boonies traders might get more traffic.

And we really need an intuitive search inside the guild trader menu.

LoganEso

Economy in this game is one of the healthiest I've seen. Addons help a lot - they even help low tier guilds, especially beginners - and so called "flipping" is not that profitable or even a problem, it's an integral and even healthy part of the economy. To understand it, you need to have insight for the whole picture and not focus only on some of the aspects.

Fluctuations of most basic mats are rare and are minimal - this is a good indicator of the system stability.
Yes, you get an influx of bot-made stuff (eg dreugh wax) from time to time, but that does not pose a real threat to the balance.

As a veteran trader I see no real problem whatsoever. Room for improvement, yes.

Carbonised

kargen27 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

People shouldn't complain about a gap in results when they are unwilling to put in the time to reach the same level. It is akin to complaining that some players can run vMA in forty minutes when it takes others several hours spanning a couple of days.

I make millions every week in my 5 trade guilds, 2 of them being the top 2 trade guilds on my server, and the 3 others being affiliate guilds.
Difference is, I don't flip items or resell, I sell surplus mats and items, and items I have crafted myself.

This was never a question of "time put in" or "expertise" or even envy. Some make their business through honest means and everyone else can easily compete with them by selling the same stuff in the free market if they wish, some make their business flipping high-end expensive items, and have the means to buy up all the competing sales and effectively create a monopoly.

If you can't see that then I guess the point went over your head.

There's a reason why every modern state has strict laws regarding monopoly, and why it is regulated in order to promote even competition. There's a reason why Apple, Amazon and Google have all been scrutinized heavily by the EU commission and even issues multimillion fines due to unfair advantages towards their competitors.

A monopoly does not benefit the customer, it does not benefit the competitors, the monopoly only benefits one with the monopoly.

I see perfectly what you are saying. You are claiming a monopoly exists. I am telling you with there being over 200 guild trader spots in the game a monopoly can not exist. Sure there are players that flip items in the game. I know at least two people that do that almost exclusively. They are not members of any cartel of trade guilds. They are simply players that enjoy hunting for bargains then flipping them.

And what makes you think flipping items isn't an honest means of making gold? Are they in some way forcing people to list their items at bargain prices? Are they somehow forcing people to buy items at extremely high prices?

Nobody has the time to monitor every trade location in the game all day every day. Even with data bases and add-ons they simply can't do it. They may have the gold to control the market but they lack the time and other resources involved. The closest players come to a monopoly is when they get on the Public Test Server and discover an update coming will increase the value of some item. They then try and grab up that item before the change goes live so they can take full advantage. Doing this they have at best a week to take advantage of high prices. Even then they do not have a monopoly as a lot of players adopt this strategy. Others spend time in the PTS learning where new rare items drop and how best to farm those rare items. They then rush when update goes live to put their knowledge to good use and provide those items to the market first. Point is they put the time in to make gold. They do not have a monopoly.

This of course is a two way street. You also need buyers for these strategies to work. There are players in the game for instance that want the new furniture recipes as soon as they drop. They are willing to pay high prices to get those recipes as quick as possible. There are players that are willing to do the grind for those recipes then put them up for sale. All involved are happy. The casual player isn't going to be able to afford those recipes in the early stages after release but that doesn't mean there is a monopoly. And as anything found in the guild store can be found elsewhere in the game players can decide if the gold something costs makes up for the time they would have to spend getting it themselves.

Yes there are players that flip items in the game but they do not nor have they ever had a monopoly. You yourself admit the ability to make millions in a very short time just selling more common items. Any person in the game can do that same thing meaning any person in the game can compete with the flippers when it comes to buying the rare items.

No you don't see a thing of what I'm writing, or purposely choose to misunderstand.

200 traders is completely irrelevant. First of all, 20 of those traders are viable, the rest are trash due to location. Secondly, if I own all the 5 Aetherial Ciphers on my server at any given moment, the amount of trader locations isn't even remotely associated or connected to my monopoly. Do you even know what a monopoly is? When I own all the copies of a rare and expensive item, I get to choose the price. Someone relists another copy at a lower price? I buy it and relist it at my price. I create an artificially inflated price, de facto control the price, and have no competitors. That's what monopoly and price fixing is, it has nothing to do with the amount of traders available.

And no I don't need to monitor every trader. I can check TTC now and then for any other listing of my expensive item, and simnply buy up the ones that I find.

As for me making gold, no I don't sell "common items", if I did that, I'd have to be a bot or have ESO as a full time farming job to make that amount of gold. Any person can't do that, btw. considering that I have poured a considerable amount of time, effort and gold into becoming a master crafter with all motifs and 99.9 % of all furniture recipes.
I provide a service, I craft items that people want, that they cannot make themselves, and I sell them in an open market, competing with everyone else who sell the same items. If someone comes along with the same kind of expertise, they're free to get into that market and compete with the rest of us (which often happens, btw). That's not monopoly, that's an open market where the supply/demand and other rules of economy establish the prices.

And yes, compared to that, price fixing, creating inflated prices and establishing monopolies of certain rare and expensive items is nothing but leeching on someone else's efforts. You're not making or creating items, you're not refining or transforming items, and you're not providing a service for neither the original seller nor the potential buyer. You're simply creating inflated prices, controlling the market value of certain items, de facto establishing a monopoly, and thereby only fattening your own wallet.

swippy

Mr_Walker wrote: »

swippy wrote: »

well that's just not true at all. the guy who owns your corner store doesn't need 10,000 candy bars for himself this month. he bought them from a warehouse for 60 cents each so he can "flip" them to walk-in customers for 89 cents. that Target store out in the suburbs didn't commission a batch of Wrangler jeans; those were bought wholesale so they can be flipped for a profit. this has been going on for centuries, so there's no way it collapses economic systems in an instant.

No no no. That's not flipping, all the examples you posted they provide a value added service.

right, just like the guy who found the blueprint for sale in the middle of nowhere and brought it to Mournhold where more buyers will browse it.

Carbonised

swippy wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

swippy wrote: »

well that's just not true at all. the guy who owns your corner store doesn't need 10,000 candy bars for himself this month. he bought them from a warehouse for 60 cents each so he can "flip" them to walk-in customers for 89 cents. that Target store out in the suburbs didn't commission a batch of Wrangler jeans; those were bought wholesale so they can be flipped for a profit. this has been going on for centuries, so there's no way it collapses economic systems in an instant.

No no no. That's not flipping, all the examples you posted they provide a value added service.

right, just like the guy who found the blueprint for sale in the middle of nowhere and brought it to Mournhold where more buyers will browse it.

In the real world, bringing physical goods from remote spot A to spot B where people have more convenient access to it, as well as paying for the physical storage of the items and everything else associated with a store business, is indeed a service, which is why the merchant charges for it.

Your comparison with ESO, however, is bull, and I'm sure you know it. You're comparing going online, then visiting an online store with a limited edition expensive item of a single copy, buying it, then immediately putting it up on another online store for twice or thrice the original price. That's not providing any form of service, it's simply trying to fill my own wallet as much as possible, at the cost of someone else.

Funnily, these days we see a lot of lost business in the physical stores, with many old store brands having to shut down. Why? Their service is no longer needed, when you can go online to Amazon and buy everything the store sells, and get it delivered to your door, whish is why Amazon is expanding at an explosive rate these days, while other stores have to shut down.
So when the store provided a valuable service for the customer, such as convenience for physical goods, they could charge their customers for it, but when that service is no longer needed, since the alternative is just as convenient, or may even more so, the store loses business and will have to close down (or provide another service that Amazon doesn't).

Flipping an item from Riften to Mournhold isn't a service, when I can simply go to TTC and see the stock of every trader in the game. And it certainly in no way in heck is a "service" worth 10 x the price of the original item.
What would you say if you walked into your every day store, to see that the price of candy bars had gone up from $3 to $30 overnight, due to the "service" of the store owner having brought it from the warehouse to his store. Oh, and btw, none of the other stores in the city, or any other city in your country, is selling candy bars.
That's the kind of example you should have made, if you wanted an apt comparison.

Mr_Walker

swippy wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

swippy wrote: »

well that's just not true at all. the guy who owns your corner store doesn't need 10,000 candy bars for himself this month. he bought them from a warehouse for 60 cents each so he can "flip" them to walk-in customers for 89 cents. that Target store out in the suburbs didn't commission a batch of Wrangler jeans; those were bought wholesale so they can be flipped for a profit. this has been going on for centuries, so there's no way it collapses economic systems in an instant.

No no no. That's not flipping, all the examples you posted they provide a value added service.

right, just like the guy who found the blueprint for sale in the middle of nowhere and brought it to Mournhold where more buyers will browse it.

Yes, the guy who found it has added value, specifically to the tune of 1 blueprint.

The guy who buys said blueprint with the intention of doing nothing with it but on-selling it for twice the price has not added value, only cost to a buyer. There is nothing "new" in the transaction. Still only 1 blueprint.

kind_hero

Carbonised wrote: »

The amount of item flippers and resellers on PC EU is more than enough to ensure that every "good deal" is gone from a trader within 10 minutes or less of being listed there, and shortly thereafter being relisted in one of the Craglorn guilds for 10x the original price.

I wondered many times how come certain items sold very quickly, or were sold in minutes after being listed on the TTC site. How does this happen? How can certain people be so aware of what is being listed?