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FYI: Updates on Class Rep Program

  • Cinbri
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    No reason of restrict reps with nda, they will break nda anyway and share info with their friends. Already happened before with Morrowind beta, will happen again coz it impossible to track such deed.
  • Sandman929
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    It's all very cloak-and-dual-wield-dagger, but I guess if the reps were happy to sign it, it can't be that bad. Should we establish a safe word for reps in case we're all complaining about something that is part of a grander scheme to which we're not privy, they could just say "marmalade", and we'll know that something hush-hush is planned to resolve the complaint?
  • Ashtaris
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    No reason of restrict reps with nda, they will break nda anyway and share info with their friends. Already happened before with Morrowind beta, will happen again coz it impossible to track such deed.

    I’ve signed NDA’s for other games and I NEVER discussed restricted items in the game with others. For one, I didn’t want to take the chance of getting sued by the game company, and second, I wanted to be someone they could trust to help with development. Most of my friends never asked me to divulge information either because they knew we took our roles seriously.
  • Chicharron
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    No reason of restrict reps with nda, they will break nda anyway and share info with their friends. Already happened before with Morrowind beta, will happen again coz it impossible to track such deed.

    Agree.

    I do not understand very well the NDA in video games, what is it for? Are you afraid of the Chinese? the Russians? but afraid of what? It's a stupid video game.

    ZOS: We gona nerf light attack in the next major update, if you tell someone i sue you.

    ZOS: you ask why? Do you know what would happen if the Chinese get this information?

    ZOS: We do not either but it's scary just to think about it.

    Assuming i was under NDA in video games, my wife has the power to make me talk even if there is a death penalty, well... any woman in fact.
  • EvilAutoTech
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    Sandman929 wrote: »
    It's all very cloak-and-dual-wield-dagger, but I guess if the reps were happy to sign it, it can't be that bad. Should we establish a safe word for reps in case we're all complaining about something that is part of a grander scheme to which we're not privy, they could just say "marmalade", and we'll know that something hush-hush is planned to resolve the complaint?

    But what if my Bosmer wants to talk about marmalade?

    High Elf marmalade, Khajiit marmalade, Orc marmalade, Dunmer marmalade or even some of that exotic Argonian marmalade.

    Human races cannot be made into marmalade, they turn into a jelly.
  • MJallday
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    Sorry I fail to see how this helps the community in any way what so ever

    If you sign an NDA it means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCUSSIONS RELATED TO THE CONEXT OF THE NDA

    In that respect it’s more like a gagging order than any way to aid communications. If fact they are explicitly designed to inhibit them!

    So I’m afraid this is just utter nonsense


  • Kingslayer513
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    I think people are misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions.
    We’d also like to take this time to talk about some changes we’re making to the program. Effective immediately, all Class Reps have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to help facilitate more transparency between them and the development team, and allow us to have a more open dialogue more regularly.
    So as it's written, it seems like the NDA will allow ZOS to be a little more open with intended changes/ideas when talking to the class reps, so that the reps may say "stop, that's a terrible idea" or "sounds good". It's just that the reps are now more restricted in what info they may pass along to us. Definitely a trade-off, though I think it's acceptable unless the NDA is far more extreme than I'm assuming. But the class reps are competent people, so if they all signed off on it then it surely isn't that bad.
  • Androconium
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    MJallday wrote: »
    Sorry I fail to see how this helps the community in any way what so ever

    If you sign an NDA it means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCUSSIONS RELATED TO THE CONEXT OF THE NDA

    In that respect it’s more like a gagging order than any way to aid communications. If fact they are explicitly designed to inhibit them!

    So I’m afraid this is just utter nonsense


    I'm afraid that you're right.
  • ForsakenSin
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    i can imagine something along the lines

    ZoS; we are nerfing magica sorcs again and removing NB cloak.
    Ambassadors: "i don' t think that is a good idea players will be angr..
    ZoS; " we are doing it"
    Players" AMBASSADORS WHY DID YOU ALOW THIS TO TAKE PLACE WHAT HAPPEN!! !!"
    Ambassadors : "i can't talk about it im under NDA"....
    Edited by ForsakenSin on October 29, 2018 10:24PM
    "By many i am seen as hero...as a savior of the Tamriel i will not stop until every Daedra every evil there is in Tamriel is vanquish by my hands..
    However i do this for my own purpose to gain trust of mortals to worship me and to eliminate my competition i will not bend my knee to lead your army to serve you Molag Bal , i will simply just take it from you.."--- Forsaken Sin( Magica Sorc)



    Arise From Darkness Forsaken SIn
    "You have been a loyal High Elf Magica Sorc
    Conjure of Darkness, Master of Magic
    Killer of Molag Bal and Savior of Ebonheart Pact
    Until Dark Brotherhood killed you...
    but now..NOW its time to Arise From Darkness once again..."

  • Dymence
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    MJallday wrote: »
    Sorry I fail to see how this helps the community in any way what so ever

    If you sign an NDA it means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCUSSIONS RELATED TO THE CONEXT OF THE NDA

    In that respect it’s more like a gagging order than any way to aid communications. If fact they are explicitly designed to inhibit them!

    So I’m afraid this is just utter nonsense


    I'm afraid that you're right.

    I'm afraid that you and many others in this thread are completely missing the point.

    Currently devs will not share info about big changes regarding combat balance with the reps in early stages. The reps learn everything at the same time we do.

    With the signing of the NDA, the devs will have more freedom in the info they disclose to the reps, so that reps may quench concerns at a much earlier stage, allowing the dev team to consider appropriate changes over a longer timespan than they are currently where it mostly just ends up with "we're sticking with it".

    So what does this NDA mean for the rest of us? Effectively nothing. Things will stay the same as is for the rest of us. We will learn about combat changes and balancing when the patches hit PTS. The important difference is that by the time they hit PTS, the reps will already have had a chance to give their input on said changes. They just won't be allowed to tell us anything before the PTS stage.
  • WeylandLabs
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    How can I say this in a constructive manner... Ummm

    Working for free is completely up to the class reps. We have seen the struggle of balance in eso for almost half a decade. And personally really don't care about the balance. Eso isn't an Esport therefore takes far less skill from other technically skilled and advanced games. So enjoy lore, RP and play dress up, becuase you get nothing in real life if your on there leaderboards.

    Fyi Once you realize this ESO becomes fun again. Not becuase of the game play becuase of the drama with tryhards thinking there Esport players it's quite entertaining.
  • spartaxoxo
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    Turelus wrote: »
    NDA means ZOS can actually talk about updates long before they're due.

    Reps will be able to know what skill lines or classes are in the works months before ZOS announce them, know what is in the works for any upcoming combat changes being conceptualised but not ready to be announced etc.

    It's a good thing if people want the reps to have more input in things, otherwise they have to wait for everything to be public knowledge. We saw how well that worked with the shield changes coming out of nowhere for them.

    I did this without the NDA on a different MMO, and was additionally tasked with moderating their forums.

    It didn't require an NDA, which is a blanket prohibition on talking about anything from those meetings. All it required was my agreement, in writing, not to discuss upcoming content.

    This absolutely is not necessary and is bad for the rest of us.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on October 30, 2018 12:08AM
  • spartaxoxo
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    I think people are misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions.
    We’d also like to take this time to talk about some changes we’re making to the program. Effective immediately, all Class Reps have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to help facilitate more transparency between them and the development team, and allow us to have a more open dialogue more regularly.
    So as it's written, it seems like the NDA will allow ZOS to be a little more open with intended changes/ideas when talking to the class reps, so that the reps may say "stop, that's a terrible idea" or "sounds good". It's just that the reps are now more restricted in what info they may pass along to us. Definitely a trade-off, though I think it's acceptable unless the NDA is far more extreme than I'm assuming. But the class reps are competent people, so if they all signed off on it then it surely isn't that bad.

    No. All you need for that is am agreement not to discuss open changes. I did this same thing for years for a different gaming company, never signed a blanket NDA, and there was never an issue.

    This is just corporate double speak designed to distract that they want to be even less communicative going forward.
  • mb10
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    How about some class reps for PS4 EU?
    There should be reps for every platform imo as the communities between them all differ.

    I can help by speaking to the players and guilds on PS4 EU if you're looking for a Mag NB - PVP perspective on different topics
  • Valykc
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    I think people are misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions.
    We’d also like to take this time to talk about some changes we’re making to the program. Effective immediately, all Class Reps have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to help facilitate more transparency between them and the development team, and allow us to have a more open dialogue more regularly.
    So as it's written, it seems like the NDA will allow ZOS to be a little more open with intended changes/ideas when talking to the class reps, so that the reps may say "stop, that's a terrible idea" or "sounds good". It's just that the reps are now more restricted in what info they may pass along to us. Definitely a trade-off, though I think it's acceptable unless the NDA is far more extreme than I'm assuming. But the class reps are competent people, so if they all signed off on it then it surely isn't that bad.

    yeah, because we saw how well ZOS listened to the reps during Nerfmire PTS 🙄.

  • ezio45
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    Liofa wrote: »
    You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.

    YEY T.T ive never been so happy

    <3 I love you guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • ezio45
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    Alcast wrote: »
    PouletRico wrote: »
    I am against anything that gives a subsection of gamers an edge above the rest. Class reps are first and foremost players, playing the game with their friends. They will absolutely 100% share any relevant heads up info with their buddies on discord et al, NDA or not.

    Since we have a known PvP exploiter amongst the EU Reps (just check the initial Class Rep thread for plenty of comments of very well known community members in regards to that), I come to think this is the worst decision ever made.

    I more of a optimistic person, I tend to trust such programs, and so far, the reps have done a pretty good job, but I have to agree with Mojo on this one. Reps are players, some of them are already very good players (Hodor and stuff), this is giving them an unfair advantage on the rest of community. And I'm not even talking about exploits or PvP.

    Are you suggesting I am leaking stuff?

    hey alcast :)<3

    Edited by ezio45 on October 30, 2018 2:20AM
  • Acrolas
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    Chicharron wrote: »
    I do not understand very well the NDA in video games, what is it for? Are you afraid of the Chinese? the Russians? but afraid of what? It's a stupid video game.

    Basically, an NDA is an agreement that you are going to receive non-public information but cannot talk about that information publicly until the information holder is ready to take that information public.

    It allows the class reps to view work under development that should not be publicly interpreted as a final product.
    Because, in weeks past, we've seen the *** storm that brews when public test material is discussed outside of the public test forum. Internal, in-development material would not only brew the same type of storm but generate strong, lasting opinions over content that may not even reach the public test stage.

    Regardless of the industry, NDAs create controlled environments and protect both branding and intellectual property.
    signing off
  • DoobZ69
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    Community: Hey ZOS I have problem 1,2,3. Are you fixing any of those?

    ZOS: Can't tell you, let's get a class rep program going.

    Community: Hey Class Reps I have problem 1,2,3 Is ZOS fixing any of those?

    Class Reps: Cant tell you.


    *** be ***.
  • Juhasow
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    Valykc wrote: »
    I think people are misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions.
    We’d also like to take this time to talk about some changes we’re making to the program. Effective immediately, all Class Reps have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to help facilitate more transparency between them and the development team, and allow us to have a more open dialogue more regularly.
    So as it's written, it seems like the NDA will allow ZOS to be a little more open with intended changes/ideas when talking to the class reps, so that the reps may say "stop, that's a terrible idea" or "sounds good". It's just that the reps are now more restricted in what info they may pass along to us. Definitely a trade-off, though I think it's acceptable unless the NDA is far more extreme than I'm assuming. But the class reps are competent people, so if they all signed off on it then it surely isn't that bad.

    yeah, because we saw how well ZOS listened to the reps during Nerfmire PTS 🙄.

    Problem is when ZoS is announcing their balance changes to the community which includes reps they have those things already coded and ready to land on PTS so it's hard to start rethinking buch of changes and reprogramming code parts connected to them few days before it hits PTS or live server. Now when class reps will be under NDA devs will be able to tell them about plans for the future updates and ideas for balance much earlier which creates posibility that changes like cast time on shields idea will never even touch the game code.
    Edited by Juhasow on October 30, 2018 3:40AM
  • GreenHere
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I think people are misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions.
    We’d also like to take this time to talk about some changes we’re making to the program. Effective immediately, all Class Reps have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to help facilitate more transparency between them and the development team, and allow us to have a more open dialogue more regularly.
    So as it's written, it seems like the NDA will allow ZOS to be a little more open with intended changes/ideas when talking to the class reps, so that the reps may say "stop, that's a terrible idea" or "sounds good". It's just that the reps are now more restricted in what info they may pass along to us. Definitely a trade-off, though I think it's acceptable unless the NDA is far more extreme than I'm assuming. But the class reps are competent people, so if they all signed off on it then it surely isn't that bad.

    No. All you need for that is am agreement not to discuss open changes. I did this same thing for years for a different gaming company, never signed a blanket NDA, and there was never an issue.

    This is just corporate double speak designed to distract that they want to be even less communicative going forward.

    Maybe I'm mistaken, but it seems you and I may view the role of the Class Reps in opposite... directions? for lack of the right way to phrase it.

    Class Reps exist to represent us, and convey our wants/needs/concerns/etc., to ZOS. To give ZOS insights into the community that they (apparently) can't glean for themselves from the forums and other feedback channels. They are meant to be knowledgeable & experienced about the game in general, and even more so about their specific class/role that they represent; and presumably be perceptive about what the community feels about things related to their class/role. The idea is to have someone who really "gets" the class from a player's perspective, you know?

    (Keep in mind that the people making the game often are able to actually play it a lot less than many of us, and they're also not usually the most skilled/dedicated gamers either; they've got other stuff that fills more of their time. Additionally, it's just plain hard to objectively view something you're so close to. This is a normal thing in life. ZOS is neck deep in making the game, so a lot of those people (unfortunately) see it in a very different way than most of us do. Class Reps are meant to help bridge this gap for them. ZOS needs help getting in touch with its player base, and that's what the Reps are for.)

    Class Reps are not in place to represent what ZOS is doing to us. Not as far as I know, anyway. ZOS can tell us what they want as they like; don't really need Reps for that. A lot of people seem to have the idea that Reps are supposed to be some kind of mouthpiece for ZOS that helps disseminate information about upcoming changes/additions to the game or something. Unless I'm totally mistaken, this is not in any way what they're for.


    So for Reps needing to sign an NDA... well, to me, that just sounds like ZOS is saying something like, "You know what, you guys are alright! Tell ya what, promise not to tell everyone what we show you, but come have a look behind the curtain. We'd like you to see what we're working on back here."

    Seems like a good thing to me. If ZOS is "trusting" the Reps (aka, binding them with legal documents) with seeing future changes to the game we all enjoy, then juuuust maybe ZOS is also open to some more collaborative discussions with those Reps for things that are earlier in the development cycle. It's easier to influence things that aren't already 80+% finished (as they are when they reach the PTS stage), and I sincerely hope this is all a sign that Reps will be able to give valuable insights earlier in the creation process for ZOS. This should, in theory, end up in better changes and content for all of us, since all these decisions would be much more well-informed than before.

    ZOS needs the help, and it seems like they're open to getting it. Sounds good to me.
  • Androconium
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    Dymence wrote: »
    MJallday wrote: »
    Sorry I fail to see how this helps the community in any way what so ever

    If you sign an NDA it means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCUSSIONS RELATED TO THE CONEXT OF THE NDA

    In that respect it’s more like a gagging order than any way to aid communications. If fact they are explicitly designed to inhibit them!

    So I’m afraid this is just utter nonsense


    I'm afraid that you're right.

    I'm afraid that you and many others in this thread are completely missing the point.

    Currently devs will not share info about big changes regarding combat balance with the reps in early stages. The reps learn everything at the same time we do.

    With the signing of the NDA, the devs will have more freedom in the info they disclose to the reps, so that reps may quench concerns at a much earlier stage, allowing the dev team to consider appropriate changes over a longer timespan than they are currently where it mostly just ends up with "we're sticking with it".

    So what does this NDA mean for the rest of us? Effectively nothing. Things will stay the same as is for the rest of us. We will learn about combat changes and balancing when the patches hit PTS. The important difference is that by the time they hit PTS, the reps will already have had a chance to give their input on said changes. They just won't be allowed to tell us anything before the PTS stage.

    I'm not completely missing the point. I'm just really cynical about it.

    So, is what you have said classified as "fact" or "opinion"? You haven't declared that in your post, despite seeming to have a detailed knowledge about how the process will work.

    IN MY OPINION, this process will allow the Class Reps to work more closely with the development team. However, I'm not convinced that this will translate into players being better informed, better represented, or have their concerns addressed.

    MY EXPERIENCE suggests that when ZOS is confronted with a problem of any nature, then the rule of thumb is to provide no comment.

    Those are true and unemotional statements. Interpret them as you see fit.
  • bardx86
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    they are basically saying shut the f up
  • pkuronen
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    ZOS must always state clearly which information is shareable. Otherwise reps are of no use to the public under the NDA.
  • Chicharron
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    Acrolas wrote: »
    Chicharron wrote: »
    I do not understand very well the NDA in video games, what is it for? Are you afraid of the Chinese? the Russians? but afraid of what? It's a stupid video game.

    Basically, an NDA is an agreement that you are going to receive non-public information but cannot talk about that information publicly until the information holder is ready to take that information public.

    It allows the class reps to view work under development that should not be publicly interpreted as a final product.
    Because, in weeks past, we've seen the *** storm that brews when public test material is discussed outside of the public test forum. Internal, in-development material would not only brew the same type of storm but generate strong, lasting opinions over content that may not even reach the public test stage.

    Regardless of the industry, NDAs create controlled environments and protect both branding and intellectual property.

    I am under NDA with two companies that we serve, i know what it is and how it works.

    in video games especially in gameplay i do not understand why, but what you say about tests in Alpha state makes sense.

    People pay me when i sign a confidentiality agreement, i do not work for free, let alone work for a company that is worth millions... for free? WTF im not crazy, for say the least.

    Any pep talk of work without payment does not work for me.

    At least streamers have the possibility of winning something, the only thing that the representatives win is to be used as scapegoats, and many insults, a pity that their passion for the game prevents them from seeing it.
  • SDraconis
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    2 thumbs up for foot in the door tactics.
    Edited by SDraconis on October 30, 2018 5:45AM
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    Liofa wrote: »
    You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.

    heck yeah! lets stop the ruining of skills!
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Blacknight841
    Blacknight841
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    The class reps are supposed to represent the community. Not being able to talk tot he community leader is like not having a voice in the people that represent you in the government. Time to vote for new reps (reps that should have been voted on by the community to begin with). If they’re is no communication between the class reps and the community they represent, then why have them at all? Zos already ignores the community, no need for redundancy.
  • Alaztor91
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    tbh if this allows class reps to know about future changes months in advance so that stuff like the rune cage fiasco doesn't start happening to other skills it can't be that bad.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Valykc wrote: »
    Terrible decision, class reps were the only voice of communication we had. Since you can’t reply back to forum threads for whatever reason. The only reason we knew that the Single Target Cast time ability bug was being looked into was because a class rep mentioned so, not because any of you devs cared to say you “were looking into it” despite at least 4 forum threads on the topic. You need to outline what is covered by the NDA and what’s not. Is it all communication, or just future changes info? If we have another bug and a player wants to know if it is being addressed, can a class rep disclose that? If not then this is stupid, and another nail in your coffin. Congrats on finding more ways to isolate your player base from needed communication.

    It's still gonna be the same thing as before. There's just additional information we can't talk about, that's all. We swill still provide feedback, still gather it, still do the same things for every update.
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
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