Far too long has alchemy been the bane of pvp.
Sure, you can say that the system allows for small scale and tree circiling, but thats not the overarching goal of openworld pvp.
The biggest problem is people got used to being on their zoom characters and loved the advantage it gave them over magicka classes.
Having major expedition, during combat, at 90-100% uptime is unbalanced and skewed.
Add into that several seconds of cc immunity with and a large boost to health regen and now its possible to not only be almost twice as fast, but also umable to be slowed down.
Remove your feelings and attachment to alchemy and honestly ask yourself, how is this "balanced".
Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.
If you really are that talented to be able to fight solo, then you will adapt your strategy. If you find yourself unable to fight 5 or 6 people and win without speed pots, then it was speed pots making you able to do this, not skill.
The game is marketed towards, and paid for, by casual players. You know, the ones that all 1vX players dream about. If removing 100% uptime from major expedition makes it harder for you or any one person to kill a group of these money spenders, bet your ass they will do whatever they can to stop you from being able to do that.
Far too long has alchemy been the bane of pvp.
Sure, you can say that the system allows for small scale and tree circiling, but thats not the overarching goal of openworld pvp.
The biggest problem is people got used to being on their zoom characters and loved the advantage it gave them over magicka classes.
Having major expedition, during combat, at 90-100% uptime is unbalanced and skewed.
Add into that several seconds of cc immunity with and a large boost to health regen and now its possible to not only be almost twice as fast, but also umable to be slowed down.
Remove your feelings and attachment to alchemy and honestly ask yourself, how is this "balanced".
Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.
If you really are that talented to be able to fight solo, then you will adapt your strategy. If you find yourself unable to fight 5 or 6 people and win without speed pots, then it was speed pots making you able to do this, not skill.
The game is marketed towards, and paid for, by casual players. You know, the ones that all 1vX players dream about. If removing 100% uptime from major expedition makes it harder for you or any one person to kill a group of these money spenders, bet your ass they will do whatever they can to stop you from being able to do that.
Far too long has alchemy been the bane of pvp.
Sure, you can say that the system allows for small scale and tree circiling, but thats not the overarching goal of openworld pvp.
The biggest problem is people got used to being on their zoom characters and loved the advantage it gave them over magicka classes.
Having major expedition, during combat, at 90-100% uptime is unbalanced and skewed.
Add into that several seconds of cc immunity with and a large boost to health regen and now its possible to not only be almost twice as fast, but also umable to be slowed down.
Remove your feelings and attachment to alchemy and honestly ask yourself, how is this "balanced".
Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.
If you really are that talented to be able to fight solo, then you will adapt your strategy. If you find yourself unable to fight 5 or 6 people and win without speed pots, then it was speed pots making you able to do this, not skill.
The game is marketed towards, and paid for, by casual players. You know, the ones that all 1vX players dream about. If removing 100% uptime from major expedition makes it harder for you or any one person to kill a group of these money spenders, bet your ass they will do whatever they can to stop you from being able to do that.
They should have just implemented a movement speed cap that was separate from sprint speed cap. 40% would have been a good start since you can have both major and minor expedition and reach the cap.
Alternatively they should have implemented a diminishing returns system so that stacking lots of sources of speed was not as beneficial.
Of course they took the worst and laziest route by nerfing all sources of expedition and their durations.
Far too long has alchemy been the bane of pvp.
Sure, you can say that the system allows for small scale and tree circiling, but thats not the overarching goal of openworld pvp.
The biggest problem is people got used to being on their zoom characters and loved the advantage it gave them over magicka classes.
Having major expedition, during combat, at 90-100% uptime is unbalanced and skewed.
Add into that several seconds of cc immunity with and a large boost to health regen and now its possible to not only be almost twice as fast, but also umable to be slowed down.
Remove your feelings and attachment to alchemy and honestly ask yourself, how is this "balanced".
Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.
If you really are that talented to be able to fight solo, then you will adapt your strategy. If you find yourself unable to fight 5 or 6 people and win without speed pots, then it was speed pots making you able to do this, not skill.
The game is marketed towards, and paid for, by casual players. You know, the ones that all 1vX players dream about. If removing 100% uptime from major expedition makes it harder for you or any one person to kill a group of these money spenders, bet your ass they will do whatever they can to stop you from being able to do that.
Except its not 5 or 6 people. Its 20 or 30 people all with procs and infused enchants to instantly melt you. Those 20 or 30 dont need further advantagea over smaller numbers.
See, I don't think they should revert the speed pot change fully. However I will say this; the fact that they equated major expedition to major vitality shows they do not understand the mechanics of combat in their game. Major expedition is nothing like major vitality, and as such shouldn't be the same duration buff. They should have reduced the expedition on potions to 30 seconds, so there was still an option to use them but you'd have to cope with a downtime. The nerfs to expedition sources such as bow, quick cloak, boundless storm, etc were made without any real concept of combat in the game, and were totally out of line. The really issue was multiple swift on builds that made them so fast they couldn't be targeted with melee abilities. Nobody complained about speed pots or major expedition before swift was in the game.
tl;dr - Pots SHOULD have been reduced to 30s duration, and there was no need to nerf quick cloak, bow, boundless storm, VO/other sets. The issue was swift.
BlackMadara wrote: »Alright, here I go.
The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics
Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.
Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.
No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.
What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.
Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.
That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.
I asked myself if alchemy is balanced and yes it is. Because everyone else can use it
BlackMadara wrote: »Alright, here I go.
The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics
Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.
Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.
No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.
What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.
Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.
That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.
BlackMadara wrote: »Alright, here I go.
The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics
Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.
Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.
No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.
What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.
Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.
That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.
First of all, I agree with what you said about the trade off which is why I suggested a value change as done to swift, so people dont move as fast. I said that the problem was the amount of increased speed you can stack, not control over it. The numbers can be adjusted in order to invite more build ideas with mundus stones etc for meaningful trade offs. But you forget something really important. What I will have to give up for speed in this patch as it is now (which i have done and tried non stop ever since Murkmire went live) will be the difference between being relevant or not because there are so many mechanics that are overpowered in this game. I'm with you on what you say but if I have to give up warrior (for example) and go steed for the speed, I won't be able to kill anyone rocking pirate skeleton or earthgores etc which are band aid mechanics saving people from mistakes. And that goes for everyone really. Because the game works with % dmg and dmg reduction which is a broken mechanic ignored. Plus before swift nobody complained about speed pots cause it wasn't that op if you really think about it
Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.
A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.
Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.
30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.
Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.
another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.
People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.
Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.
Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.
BlackMadara wrote: »Alright, here I go.
The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics
Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.
Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.
No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.
What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.
Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.
That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.
First of all, I agree with what you said about the trade off which is why I suggested a value change as done to swift, so people dont move as fast. I said that the problem was the amount of increased speed you can stack, not control over it. The numbers can be adjusted in order to invite more build ideas with mundus stones etc for meaningful trade offs. But you forget something really important. What I will have to give up for speed in this patch as it is now (which i have done and tried non stop ever since Murkmire went live) will be the difference between being relevant or not because there are so many mechanics that are overpowered in this game. I'm with you on what you say but if I have to give up warrior (for example) and go steed for the speed, I won't be able to kill anyone rocking pirate skeleton or earthgores etc which are band aid mechanics saving people from mistakes. And that goes for everyone really. Because the game works with % dmg and dmg reduction which is a broken mechanic ignored. Plus before swift nobody complained about speed pots cause it wasn't that op if you really think about it
Everyone keeps saying no one complained about speed pots, but that is such a strawman because most players did not even know about them or their over performance.
If a new player comes to the game and says, oh that guy is so fast how does he do it, the invariable answer would be bow on back bar and rapids/stam sorc.
So that player grinds out rapids and slots it and realizes wait a minute this goes away when I attack and that guy is moving that much aster than me and attacking, so the accusations of speed hacks come into play.
That guy is running faster than my horse is such a common thread, how anyone could say no one complained about speed is ridiculous.
How many threads about people running around rocks, trees, outposts, resources pop up because no one understood the only thing making that possible was alchemy.
Alchemy is the root cause of many problems in PvP.
If you are moving 30% faster than me and can re position yourself by walking through me and you can turn 30% faster than I can, that isn't balance.
SO fine, I have to use speed pots too, but now I have 20% less regen on my defense and offense resources and I lose a very large chunk of resource return as well.
So while you get nothing but benefits from this potion, I have to use the same thing to be on a lesser playing field.
This is not balance, this is dumb
Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.
A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.
Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.
30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.
Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.
another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.
People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.
Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.
Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.
No I don't think that it's balanced because magicka chars can use the same pots. I agree that the previous amount of speed when stacking swift with major exped. was broken but that was also cause of the 8 seconds of snare immunity provided by forward momentum, which I stated I find ok as it is. Combined with a reduced major expedition value and swift it will be ok. Also every class is suposed to be different, especially magicka and stamina. BlackMadara stated it very accurately when he said that tradeoffs should be made. If u want to fight a stamina character who has speed (which again if reduced as a value in a proper way will not be op ) put a gap closer on. Magdk has chains, nightblades have lotus fan etc. The only class that doesn't have one is magicka warden which in my opinion should be adressed. I was using major expedition without any swift on stam sorc (40% more speed) and magdks with chains would keep up even though I was using ball of lightning which absorbs chains. So I'm sure a reducted speed value but 100% wouldn't be as bad as you think