I am one of those fake tanks, but not because I want to but because I need to.

The need for me to queue as a tank is because most people that cannot do damage queue as a DD. In almost all situations I deal more than 50-80% of the group damage as a fake tank carrying the people that don't know whats going on.

So basically there are two reasons for not queuing as a DD: low DPS of the other DDs and large queue times.

I know that all dungeons can be completed with 5-10k DPS but all of our time is precious and most of us need to queue and complete a random dungeon in less than half an hour at most. If people cannot do decent amount of damage and are in the dungeon just to learn it or for enjoyment then it would be better for everyone to find a 4 man party from a guild or friends instead of expecting to either be carried or to waste people's valuable time with mediocre damage output.

I am all for the suggestion to lower the tank role damage output by half, but also they should make something about fake DDs such as minimum DPS required to queue as the role (damage statistic gathered from the highest recorded DPS parse from a target dummy). If this is done I will not have to queue as fake tank as the people queuing as DDs will be a lot less and I will have a reliable partner DD that I know will do at least a portion of what I put out.

@rosendoichinoveb17_ESO I see your point. However, as you're saying, you are queuing as fake tank to skip queue time. You could easily queue as DD, but you choose not to.

Also, you're seeing this only from your perspective as a somewhat above-average player. As a DD that always queues as DD, I can tell you that there are also many bad tanks and bad healers, who I don't consider a problem though because every new player has to learn. The ones you call "fake DDs" are not fake DDs. They're bad DDs. But there are also good DDs. There are also many tanks that die once a boss looks at them. Others don't speak English and can't comprehend that they have to stand on the volcano in vBF. I've seen tons of tanks quit on Galchobhar.

If you don't want to play tank because you don't like the DDs in group finder, that's ok. Just play DD and queue as DD. But if you take the fake tank solution, I don't wanna be put in the same group with you. Plus, this is something else you don't see, most fake tanks are bad! Their DPS does not nearly justify their faking. They just run forward, pull everything, die, then talk some smack in French. Heck, at least half the fake tanks in group finder are exactly those DDs that you're complaining about that deal no damage.

Or everyone who has specific requirements does not rely on random grouping.

If you are a dd who only wants to burn, join a progression guild.

If you cant handle a normal dungeon with 3dps and a healer, join a teaching guild.

Random means random it doesnt mean random within your specific requirements.

Depends on the Dungeon.

Darkshade I and II was like it was made for 3DPS 1H. Most bosses have no value in being taunted.

I actually appreciate a fake tank on DS1 and 2.

If you want to solve fake tanking, encourage more tanks, don't find new an interesting ways to punish actual tanks.

My main is a tank, and I'd prefer see an armory system. Where everyone is pretty much just wearing light / medium armor and heavy armor is treated more like a Power Armor system. Knights didn't walk around town 24/7 in full plate mail. They even had squires to help them get suited. (Squire assistant in crown store please).

If everyone had access to the heavy sets they acquired thoughout their play, then they might be enticed to develop some tanking skills. Should they select the tank role, they should get their tank loadout.

Anyway, encouraging more tanks is not only the solution to less fake tanks, but a faster dungeon finder too. Punishing tanks, or players generally will just screw with moral and make it all worse.

They could do it like in other games, where you need a certain amount of armor to queue as tank.

For ESO, you would need a build and armor equipped that gives a certain amount of spell&physical resistant and HP, or you can't choose tank in the group finder.

I'm not a huge fan of gear score requirements. But they don't have to be so high that it creates disparity in who's able to queue for content. Just have it on a moderate level, so you need at least heavy armor and more HP than a glass house DD, to pick tank.

Sure, you would still have some issues, like fake tanks not using taunts, unless you rage at them and force them to slot one. But build-wise they would be able to withstand a few hits from a boss at least.

I don't think it's a terrible idea if healers&DD's needed at least a modest amount of spell&weapon dmg either. Because a lot of those fake tanks are also really really bad DD's. They basically queue as both options while sadly lacking a build that works for either role. In my experience, fake tanks and bad DD's are often the same player. Not all the time ofc, but far to often.

We must ban lying. /s

If you want a perfect experience, you actually should play with people you know.

The group finder is a tool that finds groups and hopes for the best group it can find. It cannot force honesty.

As I said, incentivise MORE tanks, and the problem will fix itself. I don't really care how they do it.

DPS really only fake tanks because they either want the quest on the dungeon, or they are running a random normal, I doubt there are many fake tanks on vet. I've come across very few fake tanks on vet, and they get promptly booted.

I would say this though. If a fake tank occurs, and the dungeon becomes untenable where they have to quit the dungeon, that often results in the team having a 15 minute timer, or waiting a long time for a real tank. Finding a way to prevent punishing the other players that left an untenable group would be worthwhile, perhaps a group vote on disbanding where everyone leaves with no consequence. Does leader 'disbanding group' work in dungeons?

code65536 wrote: »

I like #2.

I do not like #1. I queue my DD as a tank if it's a random normal. But I do slot and use a taunt and I mostly stay alive. For content where tanks are not really needed--i.e., normals--a DD with Inner Fire on their back bar will do just fine.

But I think there is already plenty of disincentive to queue as a fake tank for content where a tank is really needed. It means wipes, non-completion, and a waste of time for everyone, including the fake tank. If I queue for a dungeon as a tank and I know I can't actually tank that dungeon, then instead of having a chance at getting a bad tank and wiping, I'm guaranteed to have a bad tank and wiping. Why would I do that to myself?

In my experience, if I'm in content where a tank is needed, and the tank doesn't taunt, it's virtually always because the tank just doesn't know how tanking works in this game. Yes, I see queue-jumping DDs, but only in really easy dungeons like normals.

A DD with a taunt who can stay alive is absolutely fine for normal dungeons. I have several characters I can run like that, and it means I never have to worry about the boss moving all over the area or kiting willy-nilly. I wish more "DDs who queue as tanks" did what you do and at least slot a taunt like Inner Fire.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

If people cannot do decent amount of damage and are in the dungeon just to learn it or for enjoyment then it would be better for everyone to find a 4 man party from a guild or friends instead of expecting to either be carried or to waste people's valuable time with mediocre damage output.

Funny, that's what I think about people who want to rush dungeons. Do it with your friends and don't expect random people to play the same way you do.

That being said, I actually don't mind fake tanks if they're able (and willing) to carry the rest of the group.

1) A decent enough idea, but does this not mean that all encounters have to be re-balanced for the sake of this (de)buff? This could well damage a lot of the balancing that goes on for the benefit of PvE players.

2) A great example of how the red tape is more of a hindrance than a benefit, provided it isn't done perfectly. People will find a way around this by using taunt once and never again, assuming that people know this is an option and have time to initiate the vote kick before combat resumes. If this has any faults to it, ZOS need to further work the system which seems unlikely until the distant future. I'm saying that in the assumption they implement your idea, too.

3) I agree with this, I'm baffled that so many games fail to implement such a system. It's not a person's character I have trouble with, it's the person. It's not like they'll stop being a mardy so-and-so if they change character. However, you ended your paragraph by saying you'd rather wait for a decent group than a little less time for a bad one.... but why wait? Why not actively seek it via chat channels and guilds, and if that's a problem, then let's address that problem.

I know we all want a quick and easy fix to LFG tools, but there is none without giving the somewhat flippant response you're used to by now. It's more a problem of apathy, in my view. I'll give an example of what happened to me in WoW recently: twice I wrongly entered two holiday dungeons as a healer, thinking (for some reason) I was queued as DPS. That was wrong of me, but nobody pointed it out. Nobody cared enough to kick me or say I was in the wrong specialisation. I'd've left of my own accord if I'd known I hadn't paid attention during the dungeon, because a real healer could've stepped in and claimed the kill just before the instance was over, and I would've learnt from social embarrassment. But not all players know what they're doing wrong, and don't know why/how/if they should rectify the mistakes they're making.

There's a very popular video that had confirmed things like this as an experiment during Mists of Pandaria. I'd understand if you disagreed with it, but it's an interesting watch nontheless:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

EDIT: The word filter went nuts. Or is does that word need censoring too?

I feel that this problem is much more prevalent in normal dungeon runs, and some vet dungeons to a lesser extent. I usually give the fake tank a chance; most players who do that are usually competent DDs and in normal content it can actually make the run much faster. Vet content is a bit of a different story, by that I mean I expect the DD to at least have a taunt and a 1h&shield either on the back bar or a keybind that allows them to easily swap gear and weapons to one so that they can at least try to fulfill the tank role when needed.

I get it for DDs who are just trying to do a normal Undaunted pledge or level an alt. Those queue wait times can get ridiculous, meanwhile I get insta-PUG as a tank. As long as they can keep the boss/trash/adds within the killzone (CC) effectively and keeps the boss from mauling the healer, I usually don't mind. But it can get irritating, but luckily they can be vote kicked relatively easily if need be.

Myyth wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I am one of those fake tanks, but not because I want to but because I need to.

The need for me to queue as a tank is because most people that cannot do damage queue as a DD. In almost all situations I deal more than 50-80% of the group damage as a fake tank carrying the people that don't know whats going on.
.

You are the worst type of fake tank. You are the high CP player that rolls in and thinks they are doing everyone a favor by having your high and mighty presence in the group. You are the player that thinks he deserves to skip the queue because you are too good to wait like the rest of us unwashed dps.
Meanwhile, aggro is everywhere with players struggling to survive, the boss is attacking the healer making him work extra hard to keep the entire group alive including himself, but that's ok! because we have YOU in our group!

THIS.

This isn't a problem for zeni to solve, this can be handled within the community. Initiate a vote to kick if you get a fake tank and are bothered by it. If it passes, the majority agrees with you and the fake tank incurs a queue penalty. If this happens every time, or even just the majority of the time, it will stop.

If groups don't pass the kick vote, the majority have determined it's not a problem, and people bothered by it should either deal with it or put together groups on their own.

iiYuki wrote: »

Why not make the tank role generate passive agro or not let people chose the role if they dont have a set HP.

Tanks getting passive aggro makes actual tanking boring, IMO.