Please, ZOS, do something against fake tanks!

Meld777

More and more fake tanks are ruining people's experience in group finder.

Definition of a fake tank: DD that queued as a tank to skip the queue time, with no intention of tanking, i.e. no taunt. If you are using a taunt and hold bosses in place, you are not a fake tank.

The following solutions are possible:

1. Group Finder buff/debuff: Whenever you queue with group finder, the tank and healer roles get a hard damage punishment (50%+) while the DDs get a flat damage buff (10%+). This way, on average, most groups should get more overall DPS than they have now, while fakers will lose interest if they hit like wet noodles. This is also the approach that is easiest to implement.

2. "Kick as fake": It is not easy to avoid abuse of something like a "mark as fake" feature. However, it's possible to combine it with an indicator. Logic example: Whenever a group kills a boss or wipes to a boss, if the tank has not used a taunt skill a single time during the fight, a new kick option appears: "Kick as fake". This option disappears again whenever the tank uses taunt. If the tank is using taunt during boss fights, this option will never appear. In order to be kicked as fake, 2 votes are enough rather than 3. When someone is kicked as fake, he gets a detailed explanation about his role and a 6h dungeon finder timeout. A similar solution can be created for healers based on relative group HPS.

3. Improved ignore/block list: The ignore list in ESO only affects chat, nothing else. Thus, it is only helpful when someone is spamming you hard in whispers. It would be awesome if it was possible to put people on a block list, so that the group finder wouldn't put you in the same group. As a DD I'd wait 1h 5min rather than 1h if it means that I'm getting an actual tank. And if I don't, I don't wanna be grouped with the faker ever again.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Does ZOS acknowledge the rising fake tank problem? And if yes, are there any plans to deal with this issue?

phaneub17_ESO

Meld777 wrote: »

Group Finder buff/debuff: Whenever you queue with group finder, the tank and healer roles get a hard damage punishment (50%+) while the DDs get a flat damage buff (10%+). This way, on average, most groups should get more overall DPS than they have now, while fakers will lose interest if they hit like wet noodles. This is also the approach that is easiest to implement.

This would suck for real tanks too, I've had occasions where the rest of the group died to standing in red and try as I might to rez them they either get one shotted for having low health or still stand in red and die again. I end up tanking, healing, and doing damage until the boss dies.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

I am one of those fake tanks, but not because I want to but because I need to.

The need for me to queue as a tank is because most people that cannot do damage queue as a DD. In almost all situations I deal more than 50-80% of the group damage as a fake tank carrying the people that don't know whats going on.

So basically there are two reasons for not queuing as a DD: low DPS of the other DDs and large queue times.

I know that all dungeons can be completed with 5-10k DPS but all of our time is precious and most of us need to queue and complete a random dungeon in less than half an hour at most. If people cannot do decent amount of damage and are in the dungeon just to learn it or for enjoyment then it would be better for everyone to find a 4 man party from a guild or friends instead of expecting to either be carried or to waste people's valuable time with mediocre damage output.

I am all for the suggestion to lower the tank role damage output by half, but also they should make something about fake DDs such as minimum DPS required to queue as the role (damage statistic gathered from the highest recorded DPS parse from a target dummy). If this is done I will not have to queue as fake tank as the people queuing as DDs will be a lot less and I will have a reliable partner DD that I know will do at least a portion of what I put out.

VaranisArano

ZOS already did what they could by making it obvious when someone deliberately queued as a fake tank. Any other requirements can be gamed or end up punishing real tanks or the players who actually slot a taunt on their DPS toons to tank.

I dont like fake tanks at all, but I dont think this is something ZOS can change. This is a problem with player behavior by players who want to cheat the system, not an actual problem with the system.


Now, what ZOS could do better is teach players how to DPS properly, so that many actual tanks dont get frustrated with low DPS groups and stop PUGing. Teaching players how to do well in group content is an area where this game struggles.

A practical suggestion: ZOS should add a DPS counter to settings for all platforms, thus enabling everyone to see their own personal DPS (not available to group members because we've already had the functionality removed for good reasons). Most players dont realize how low their DPS is without practicing at a target dummy, and this would give better feedback in the real situations that DDs face. Players would thus have better opportunity to realize their DPS is low, and thus incentive to learn to do better. Hopefully ZOS would step up and actually teach players to do a DPS rotation, and if not the community has been doing that already.

Adding a personal DPS counter would have benefits even apart from the "low DPS leads to frustrated tanks" issue, as well.

Meld777

@rosendoichinoveb17_ESO I see your point. However, as you're saying, you are queuing as fake tank to skip queue time. You could easily queue as DD, but you choose not to.

Also, you're seeing this only from your perspective as a somewhat above-average player. As a DD that always queues as DD, I can tell you that there are also many bad tanks and bad healers, who I don't consider a problem though because every new player has to learn. The ones you call "fake DDs" are not fake DDs. They're bad DDs. But there are also good DDs. There are also many tanks that die once a boss looks at them. Others don't speak English and can't comprehend that they have to stand on the volcano in vBF. I've seen tons of tanks quit on Galchobhar.

If you don't want to play tank because you don't like the DDs in group finder, that's ok. Just play DD and queue as DD. But if you take the fake tank solution, I don't wanna be put in the same group with you. Plus, this is something else you don't see, most fake tanks are bad! Their DPS does not nearly justify their faking. They just run forward, pull everything, die, then talk some smack in French. Heck, at least half the fake tanks in group finder are exactly those DDs that you're complaining about that deal no damage.

Alchemical

Meld777 wrote: »

1. Group Finder buff/debuff: Whenever you queue with group finder, the tank and healer roles get a hard damage punishment (50%+) while the DDs get a flat damage buff (10%+). This way, on average, most groups should get more overall DPS than they have now, while fakers will lose interest if they hit like wet noodles. This is also the approach that is easiest to implement.

This will make some dungeons literally impossible to complete unless both DPS are reliably above average which, let's face it, doesn't happen in group finder. I'm the healer and I often do nearly as much damage as pug DPS. Sometimes more in the case of truly exceptional individuals. The fact that DPS races are often an essential component of some boss fights means that everyone needs to be preforming to meet the threshold.

Assuming we have a non-fake tank: Lets suppose that theoretically I do 15k dps and the DPS do 20k. Our gross DPS is 55k. With your proposed nerfs we would only have 51k, that's a net loss of DPS, which now makes the dungeon harder on everyone else, and that's even if the tank is doing their job.

yodased

Or everyone who has specific requirements does not rely on random grouping.

If you are a dd who only wants to burn, join a progression guild.

If you cant handle a normal dungeon with 3dps and a healer, join a teaching guild.

Random means random it doesnt mean random within your specific requirements.

Marabornwingrion

I always queue as a fake healer, do you have any ideas how to fix this?

richo262

Depends on the Dungeon.

Darkshade I and II was like it was made for 3DPS 1H. Most bosses have no value in being taunted.

I actually appreciate a fake tank on DS1 and 2.

If you want to solve fake tanking, encourage more tanks, don't find new an interesting ways to punish actual tanks.

My main is a tank, and I'd prefer see an armory system. Where everyone is pretty much just wearing light / medium armor and heavy armor is treated more like a Power Armor system. Knights didn't walk around town 24/7 in full plate mail. They even had squires to help them get suited. (Squire assistant in crown store please).

If everyone had access to the heavy sets they acquired thoughout their play, then they might be enticed to develop some tanking skills. Should they select the tank role, they should get their tank loadout.

Anyway, encouraging more tanks is not only the solution to less fake tanks, but a faster dungeon finder too. Punishing tanks, or players generally will just screw with moral and make it all worse.

VaranisArano

yodased wrote: »

Or everyone who has specific requirements does not rely on random grouping.

If you are a dd who only wants to burn, join a progression guild.

If you cant handle a normal dungeon with 3dps and a healer, join a teaching guild.

Random means random it doesnt mean random within your specific requirements.

Thats not what random means in the groupfinder.

Using the groupfinder to find random teammates means you get placed with people who queued up to fill certain roles. Groupfinder Random Groups have 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 damage dealers. The quality of those players may vary dramatically, but they have set roles to fill that they didnt choose accidently. Everyone starts as a DD, they didnt accidently choose to tank.

So this isnt a matter of "if you cant handle a normal dungeon without a tank, learn2play".

This is someone deliberately choosing the tank role and refusing to do the tank's job. My healer can handle boss aggro, because I main a tank, but why should my healer have to when someone in my group queued up as a tank? Why aren't they doing their job when asked to slot a taunt? Why do they expect my healer to do their job?

Groupfinder has specific roles. Fake tanks deliberately abuse groupfinder's roles with no intention of properly filling that role.

So I dont want to hear this nonsense about "Dont use Groupfinder because you never know what you'll get." I know exactly what I'm supposed to get: 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DDs of varying quality. Fake tanks with no intention of tanking break that function of groupfinder for their own benefit, and if we dont know whether we'll get a fake tank or not, that is 100% the fault of the fake tanks, not Groupfinder.

eliisra

They could do it like in other games, where you need a certain amount of armor to queue as tank.

For ESO, you would need a build and armor equipped that gives a certain amount of spell&physical resistant and HP, or you can't choose tank in the group finder.

I'm not a huge fan of gear score requirements. But they don't have to be so high that it creates disparity in who's able to queue for content. Just have it on a moderate level, so you need at least heavy armor and more HP than a glass house DD, to pick tank.

Sure, you would still have some issues, like fake tanks not using taunts, unless you rage at them and force them to slot one. But build-wise they would be able to withstand a few hits from a boss at least.

I don't think it's a terrible idea if healers&DD's needed at least a modest amount of spell&weapon dmg either. Because a lot of those fake tanks are also really really bad DD's. They basically queue as both options while sadly lacking a build that works for either role. In my experience, fake tanks and bad DD's are often the same player. Not all the time ofc, but far to often.

Myyth

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I am one of those fake tanks, but not because I want to but because I need to.

The need for me to queue as a tank is because most people that cannot do damage queue as a DD. In almost all situations I deal more than 50-80% of the group damage as a fake tank carrying the people that don't know whats going on.
.

You are the worst type of fake tank. You are the high CP player that rolls in and thinks they are doing everyone a favor by having your high and mighty presence in the group. You are the player that thinks he deserves to skip the queue because you are too good to wait like the rest of us unwashed dps.
Meanwhile, aggro is everywhere with players struggling to survive, the boss is attacking the healer making him work extra hard to keep the entire group alive including himself, but that's ok! because we have YOU in our group!

richo262

We must ban lying. /s

If you want a perfect experience, you actually should play with people you know.

The group finder is a tool that finds groups and hopes for the best group it can find. It cannot force honesty.

As I said, incentivise MORE tanks, and the problem will fix itself. I don't really care how they do it.

DPS really only fake tanks because they either want the quest on the dungeon, or they are running a random normal, I doubt there are many fake tanks on vet. I've come across very few fake tanks on vet, and they get promptly booted.

I would say this though. If a fake tank occurs, and the dungeon becomes untenable where they have to quit the dungeon, that often results in the team having a 15 minute timer, or waiting a long time for a real tank. Finding a way to prevent punishing the other players that left an untenable group would be worthwhile, perhaps a group vote on disbanding where everyone leaves with no consequence. Does leader 'disbanding group' work in dungeons?

code65536

I like #2.

I do not like #1. I queue my DD as a tank if it's a random normal. But I do slot and use a taunt and I mostly stay alive. For content where tanks are not really needed--i.e., normals--a DD with Inner Fire on their back bar will do just fine.

But I think there is already plenty of disincentive to queue as a fake tank for content where a tank is really needed. It means wipes, non-completion, and a waste of time for everyone, including the fake tank. If I queue for a dungeon as a tank and I know I can't actually tank that dungeon, then instead of having a chance at getting a bad tank and wiping, I'm guaranteed to have a bad tank and wiping. Why would I do that to myself?

In my experience, if I'm in content where a tank is needed, and the tank doesn't taunt, it's virtually always because the tank just doesn't know how tanking works in this game. Yes, I see queue-jumping DDs, but only in really easy dungeons like normals.

VaranisArano

code65536 wrote: »

I like #2.

I do not like #1. I queue my DD as a tank if it's a random normal. But I do slot and use a taunt and I mostly stay alive. For content where tanks are not really needed--i.e., normals--a DD with Inner Fire on their back bar will do just fine.

But I think there is already plenty of disincentive to queue as a fake tank for content where a tank is really needed. It means wipes, non-completion, and a waste of time for everyone, including the fake tank. If I queue for a dungeon as a tank and I know I can't actually tank that dungeon, then instead of having a chance at getting a bad tank and wiping, I'm guaranteed to have a bad tank and wiping. Why would I do that to myself?

In my experience, if I'm in content where a tank is needed, and the tank doesn't taunt, it's virtually always because the tank just doesn't know how tanking works in this game. Yes, I see queue-jumping DDs, but only in really easy dungeons like normals.

A DD with a taunt who can stay alive is absolutely fine for normal dungeons. I have several characters I can run like that, and it means I never have to worry about the boss moving all over the area or kiting willy-nilly. I wish more "DDs who queue as tanks" did what you do and at least slot a taunt like Inner Fire.

Juju_beans

The community needs to start policing themselves. If you find you have a fake tank then kick them.

ZeroXFF

Meld777 wrote: »

More and more fake tanks are ruining people's experience in group finder.

Definition of a fake tank: DD that queued as a tank to skip the queue time, with no intention of tanking, i.e. no taunt. If you are using a taunt and hold bosses in place, you are not a fake tank.

The following solutions are possible:

1. Group Finder buff/debuff: Whenever you queue with group finder, the tank and healer roles get a hard damage punishment (50%+) while the DDs get a flat damage buff (10%+). This way, on average, most groups should get more overall DPS than they have now, while fakers will lose interest if they hit like wet noodles. This is also the approach that is easiest to implement.

2. "Kick as fake": It is not easy to avoid abuse of something like a "mark as fake" feature. However, it's possible to combine it with an indicator. Logic example: Whenever a group kills a boss or wipes to a boss, if the tank has not used a taunt skill a single time during the fight, a new kick option appears: "Kick as fake". This option disappears again whenever the tank uses taunt. If the tank is using taunt during boss fights, this option will never appear. In order to be kicked as fake, 2 votes are enough rather than 3. When someone is kicked as fake, he gets a detailed explanation about his role and a 6h dungeon finder timeout. A similar solution can be created for healers based on relative group HPS.

3. Improved ignore/block list: The ignore list in ESO only affects chat, nothing else. Thus, it is only helpful when someone is spamming you hard in whispers. It would be awesome if it was possible to put people on a block list, so that the group finder wouldn't put you in the same group. As a DD I'd wait 1h 5min rather than 1h if it means that I'm getting an actual tank. And if I don't, I don't wanna be grouped with the faker ever again.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Does ZOS acknowledge the rising fake tank problem? And if yes, are there any plans to deal with this issue?

4. Add queues for non-traditional group compositions (add 4 checkboxes somewhere in the group finder menu for the group compositions 1T/1H/2DD, 1T/3DD, 1H/3DD, 4DD that the person would be willing to join). That way people who are inclined to queue as fakes will queue with people who are willing to deal with fakes. Also, give us back the ability to queue with multiple roles, because a lot of people can genuinely do more than one thing.

Kolzki

I did a random as a tank last week and had a fake healer in group. The healer was really a second tank who ran in and taunted everything. I never thought I’d find myself off tanking spindle clutch 1. Mind blown.

czar

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

If people cannot do decent amount of damage and are in the dungeon just to learn it or for enjoyment then it would be better for everyone to find a 4 man party from a guild or friends instead of expecting to either be carried or to waste people's valuable time with mediocre damage output.

Funny, that's what I think about people who want to rush dungeons. Do it with your friends and don't expect random people to play the same way you do.

That being said, I actually don't mind fake tanks if they're able (and willing) to carry the rest of the group.

redspecter23

Option #1 is horrible. It drastically changes the dynamic of a group such that it may need to be taken into account when balancing. You now have a standard 4 man group and a queued 4 man group which both play very differently. Dungeon balance would have to take this into account and it would be a nightmare.

Option #2 has some potential but there could very well be bosses that either can't be taunted or that die so fast a taunt may not have helped. If you're fighting the end boss of Darkshade 2 and wipe, it likely had nothing to do with whether or not the tank taunted the boss. Actually an argument could be made that having the tank walk up to the boss close enough to apply Puncture could put them in unnecessary danger.

We already have a very good option in place. Vote to kick. Fake tank gets in the group, vote to kick him. If you don't have the numbers to do it, leave group. Any changes proposed to help fix the issue need to somehow be applied before the group forms. If the fake tank queues with a friend, then no vote to kick option will ever remove them. If the dungeon required a real tank for whatever reason and the group doesn't have one for whatever reason, then either the fake tank needs to go or the other members need to go if that option fails.

I like the idea proposed above for non traditional groups. A checkbox that allows for 4 of any role to get grouped together. If you are dps and have no issue with having no tank or healer, check the box and queue in with 4 dps for the dungeon. You'll still get fake tanks I suppose, but the option for them to get into a faster group without having to lie about their role would be there for them. No real reason to fake queue other than to troll.

johnbonne

1) A decent enough idea, but does this not mean that all encounters have to be re-balanced for the sake of this (de)buff? This could well damage a lot of the balancing that goes on for the benefit of PvE players.

2) A great example of how the red tape is more of a hindrance than a benefit, provided it isn't done perfectly. People will find a way around this by using taunt once and never again, assuming that people know this is an option and have time to initiate the vote kick before combat resumes. If this has any faults to it, ZOS need to further work the system which seems unlikely until the distant future. I'm saying that in the assumption they implement your idea, too.

3) I agree with this, I'm baffled that so many games fail to implement such a system. It's not a person's character I have trouble with, it's the person. It's not like they'll stop being a mardy so-and-so if they change character. However, you ended your paragraph by saying you'd rather wait for a decent group than a little less time for a bad one.... but why wait? Why not actively seek it via chat channels and guilds, and if that's a problem, then let's address that problem.

I know we all want a quick and easy fix to LFG tools, but there is none without giving the somewhat flippant response you're used to by now. It's more a problem of apathy, in my view. I'll give an example of what happened to me in WoW recently: twice I wrongly entered two holiday dungeons as a healer, thinking (for some reason) I was queued as DPS. That was wrong of me, but nobody pointed it out. Nobody cared enough to kick me or say I was in the wrong specialisation. I'd've left of my own accord if I'd known I hadn't paid attention during the dungeon, because a real healer could've stepped in and claimed the kill just before the instance was over, and I would've learnt from social embarrassment. But not all players know what they're doing wrong, and don't know why/how/if they should rectify the mistakes they're making.

There's a very popular video that had confirmed things like this as an experiment during Mists of Pandaria. I'd understand if you disagreed with it, but it's an interesting watch nontheless:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas

EDIT: The word filter went nuts. Or is does that word need censoring too?

VaranisArano

Kolzki wrote: »

I did a random as a tank last week and had a fake healer in group. The healer was really a second tank who ran in and taunted everything. I never thought I’d find myself off tanking spindle clutch 1. Mind blown.

Healers and DDs who accidently equip a taunt are hilarious.

Usually its ice staff users who didnt pay attention to the passives and are shocked, just shocked, when they get boss aggro. I explain it to them, and after that "You taunt it, you tank it."

The best I ever had was a DD with One Hand and Shield using Pierce Armor. I was just stunned, like "WTF were you thinking? How do you even make a DD build with Pierce Armor in it?"

Raraaku

I feel that this problem is much more prevalent in normal dungeon runs, and some vet dungeons to a lesser extent. I usually give the fake tank a chance; most players who do that are usually competent DDs and in normal content it can actually make the run much faster. Vet content is a bit of a different story, by that I mean I expect the DD to at least have a taunt and a 1h&shield either on the back bar or a keybind that allows them to easily swap gear and weapons to one so that they can at least try to fulfill the tank role when needed.

I get it for DDs who are just trying to do a normal Undaunted pledge or level an alt. Those queue wait times can get ridiculous, meanwhile I get insta-PUG as a tank. As long as they can keep the boss/trash/adds within the killzone (CC) effectively and keeps the boss from mauling the healer, I usually don't mind. But it can get irritating, but luckily they can be vote kicked relatively easily if need be.

phileunderx2

Qued up for a easy run this morning on my magblade as a dps. My group had a tank with sword and board but I ended up having to tank everything lol.

mikemacon

Myyth wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I am one of those fake tanks, but not because I want to but because I need to.

The need for me to queue as a tank is because most people that cannot do damage queue as a DD. In almost all situations I deal more than 50-80% of the group damage as a fake tank carrying the people that don't know whats going on.
.

You are the worst type of fake tank. You are the high CP player that rolls in and thinks they are doing everyone a favor by having your high and mighty presence in the group. You are the player that thinks he deserves to skip the queue because you are too good to wait like the rest of us unwashed dps.
Meanwhile, aggro is everywhere with players struggling to survive, the boss is attacking the healer making him work extra hard to keep the entire group alive including himself, but that's ok! because we have YOU in our group!

THIS.

TheDarkShadow

The best answer for this imo is improve ignore list so that we can't get random group with people we ignore. Fakers might get group fast for a few time but soon it will take longer and longer as more and more people ignore them.

idk

Buffs and debuffs based on GF role is not a solution. It would make it so those, like myself, who sometimes queue for a random cannot help out with dps while doing our role. The main reason tanks avoid the GF is due to the bad DPS. So this just makes it worse.

Vote to kick is certainly a start. Those that do not try to vote kick or to not go along with the vote of someone who does not even have a taunt are part of the problem and just as culpable. Tanking most normal dungeons can be done with the undaunted taunt in dps/healing gear. Kick the fake tank and do the role yourself.

And, yes, the ignore list should prevent a player from being grouped with you via GF. It is really simple.

iiYuki

Why not make the tank role generate passive agro or not let people chose the role if they dont have a set HP.

Reverb

This isn't a problem for zeni to solve, this can be handled within the community. Initiate a vote to kick if you get a fake tank and are bothered by it. If it passes, the majority agrees with you and the fake tank incurs a queue penalty. If this happens every time, or even just the majority of the time, it will stop.

If groups don't pass the kick vote, the majority have determined it's not a problem, and people bothered by it should either deal with it or put together groups on their own.

weedgenius

I hate fake tanks. Yesterday I did my daily random and the tank was 780 cp and had 2h and bow. I didn’t catch what class he was. Immediately I was ready to vote kick... I just wasn’t in the mood. But I let it go to see what happens. Before long I realize he is actually using a taunt... woah! A rarity for a fake tank. But then I start to wonder “is this a real tank?” We ended up flying through the dungeon and even got the no death achievement.

I queued for both vet and norm random and I didn’t even notice it was vet until he read the scroll at the end. I said so in the chat and he wrote back “I tank with 39k dps.” And he really did. It was a good experience. Idk what my point is but I guess just that these roles can be kinda unconventional and still work. Punishing something outside the norm thru group finder could stifle unique builds. It’s a sticky problem with no easy solution.

VaranisArano

iiYuki wrote: »

Why not make the tank role generate passive agro or not let people chose the role if they dont have a set HP.

Tanks getting passive aggro makes actual tanking boring, IMO.