Please, ZOS, do something against fake tanks!

Mavor

Pugging is a grab bag - never know what you're going to get. We had a tank come in a few days back, stood around in his backpack for several minutes, switched to a bow and never replied to our questions or chat. Not wanting to wait on another tank (he was already our second one...) - we ran the dungeon anyway with me leading as a stamsorc. When pugging, sometimes you just have to play with the cards you're dealt.

Best thing the players can do is vote-kick someone who isn't fulfilling their role. This happens enough, perhaps that person will learn they cant get away with their behavior any longer.

On a side note - I do wish tanking was more fun. I keep trying to level a tank myself - but neither one Ive tried, DK or Warden, feels very dynamic or fun. Its very mechanical and dull. Not sure how they could make it more entertaining, but I suspect if tanking was a more engaging and enjoyable activity there would be more of them.

Side note #2 - the idea that pugging through the dungeon finder is just for people who want to speedrun dungeons - very short sighted. Choosing to use the DF is submitting to whatever situation you end up with - people learning the dungeon, people needing to do the dungeon quest, people wanting to speed run, people wanting to explore, etc - if you cant be bothered to deal with all that, then you should put together a group that is tailored to the run you expect to have - and avoid using the DF.

SakuraRush

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I'm not sure how to fix the problem of fake tanks. I can only offer the thoughts and observations of my one character who is a Real. Main. Tank.

Real tanks are a small population. Those who are willing to pug are a much smaller population still. So why do so many tanks refuse to pug?

Our job is to grab the boss, turn him away from our group, root his nearby adds, chain in tougher ranged foes and hold them all in a tight killing zone for our dps. In order to do that quickly and smoothly, we need to control the initial 'pull'. It is much easier to gain and hold initial aggro than it is to try to salvage it from squishies who jump the gun and turn calm into chaos before the tank can do their initial pull.

Consider a group that is familiar with how to use a tank. They stay behind me, advance at my pace and wait to open fire until I have grabbed the boss. I become a serious damage multiplier for my dps as I provide a captive batch of targets inside a tight killing zone for their AoEs. Further, my dps are safer and don't have to dance around as much which makes the healer's job much easier as well. My dps and healer know that some boss mechanics can break my taunt and if they get a boss in their face, they drag the boss back to me instead of trying to kite it all over the battlefield. When I have a group that knows how to use me, I confess I sometimes feel like a god - and THAT is why I tank.

Contrast that to pugging. In too many pugs, an aggressive dps races ahead charging into a mess while I am trying to jog along behind, still recovering stamina from the last fight (most tanks intentionally have very poor stam regen since it drops to zero while blocking anyway). In too many pug fights, I find myself trying to salvage a mess that, if the team had just let me go in first and gain control would never have devolved into a mess. During fights like that, I feel rather worthless trying to chase down a rogue boss or three intent on killing the kiting squishies who are leading them all over the place.

How is it these pug groups never learned how to properly work with a real tank? I submit they learned it from fake tanks. . . .

A couple random additional thoughts:
- If I ask to go in first over the chat box in a pug, it generally just sets me farther behind the racing squishies since I have to stop to type and my typing gets ignored anyway.
- If you really want to lead the group and be the first to start the fights, I suggest you learn how to be a Real. Main. Tank.

As a tank when I pug I have a very simple rule. If someone else pulls or takes boss aggro they are now the tank in addition to whatever they were before.

As for the topic itself, there is no solution because the problem is the players. Main a tank for a while and you'll see that the other roles are also plagued with "fakes".

Damage is plagued with PvP builds trying to leech dailies for Undaunted.

Heals are plagued with healers that seem to believe the dungeon will go faster if they just heal and ignore everything else.

You'll see that the average damage and healer lose their mind if a single enemy targets them. That's frustrating. Watching a DPS kite around a single enemy while ignoring the heavies or the pack you're holding.

You'll group things nicely only to hear the sounds of resto heavy attacks and snipe from your party.

You'll taunt a boss and turn it only to have one or more party members immediately stack on you right in the face of the boss.

You'll encounter a good number of people with less than 13k health and won't be able to figure out how that's even possible.

You'll get a party that has no understanding of the mechanics despite being max CP.

The problem isn't "fake" anything. The problem is bad players that have no desire to get better. They are just after the rewards.

John_Falstaff

I'm not sure that buffing tanks' damage and giving a damaging AoE taunt wouldn't dilute the role. For one that would remove flexibility. Some tanks want to be very tanky, they'd be fine pulling everything on themselves; some like only taking heavy-hitters and letting some damage come outside - so they could cut down on survivability some and invest into support. Yes, it's bad that tanks are walking debuff machines, but it's just as bad to remove the choice from them and establish one standard of tanking, official or not.

When I think about making tanking more engaging, I think more along the lines of mechanics - say, HoF style - that would give more diversity to tanking skill.

johnbonne

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

I don't think guys are understanding what I'm saying.

Now unless you want to play a REAL tank yourself the better solution is to try to get ZOS to somehow BUFF tanks so you get more of them-not an easy thing to do.


My suggestion was an AOE taunt that does health based damage, with the damage component removed in PVP. I was told that ZOS doesn't balance for PVP and PVE separately.

That's a suggestion I love, and it would really inspire me to take up tanking.... but not in PuGs, because I'd rather play with guildies every once in a while and be certain to have a positive experience, than worry about the mere chance of flak I'd receive because I'm new or inexperienced (or because that other player is having a bad day). And I think it only takes one bad experience for a lot of players to go "nope", and scurry back to the safety of being in the damage dealing majority.

I apologise for harping on about WoW all the time, but it's the game and experience I can most easily compare to ESO, but Blizzard's MMO suffers the exact same problem with tanks. The reasons there aren't necessarily because of design, but because of dramatically high expectations of the tank/low self-awareness of one's poor play, and simply the notion - however correct or incorrect - that tanks have more responsibility and are expected to be natural leaders.

ZOS can buff tanks, they can massively change how threat works but I reckon we will always be in dire need of more. I think the lack of tanks goes beyond dungeons - who would play a tank while levelling solo? How does one get into tanking? What quest content is designed specifically for non-damage dealing roles (i.e escort quests or healing wounded civilians)? If we could do more to encourage tanks besides mechanics and give them a reason to be appreciated elsewhere, it might encourage more to take up the role.

In short, ZOS can still only do so much, however amazing suggestions made are. Players have to choose to be "legitimate" tanks and not just take it up, but stick with it. And I think how long they do that depends on how other players treat them. ^^

SakuraRush

AOE taunts are not an option and never will be. By design. It would require every dungeon and encounter to be rebalanced and that's not something they are going to do

Darkenarlol

ZOS allready did everything so you can get only dedicated players of your desireble level of skill..

they gave you your friend list...


so stop whining about fake/bad/lower than your expectaions players

you never can come to adequate solution by forcing someone to do what you think they should do

for example anyone with lower than 40k dps single target is fake dps imo... so my queue always full of fake dd's

Meld777

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

I don't think guys are understanding what I'm saying.

If you did away with *fake* tanks, queues will be DAYS long. FAKE tanks outnumber REAL tanks.

Makes no difference to me, I'm a tank and I'll still get groups instantly.

But if you're a DD you'll probably give up before you ever see a dungeon finder group again.

@I_B_Squishy No. Most certainly not. We, the DDs, are not happy to wait for so long just to get a fake tank. I'll gladly wait longer if it guarantees me a real tank. Also, the forums seem super oblivious about what a fake tank is. 19 out of 20 fake tanks just run in with their 10k DPS, no taunt, and die, then talk some smack in chat in some non-English language. Then I have the choice to either carry the queue skipper or kick/leave. Guess which option I choose. I'm definitely not gonna encourage this behavior. Then we have to 3-man the dungeon because it's not worth it waiting another hour in there for another (fake) tank.

SakuraRush

Darkenarlol wrote: »

ZOS allready did everything so you can get only dedicated players of your desireble level of skill..

they gave you your friend list...


so stop whining about fake/bad/lower than your expectaions players

you never can come to adequate solution by forcing someone to do what you think they should do

for example anyone with lower than 40k dps single target is fake dps imo... so my queue always full of fake dd's

Your response doesn't address the complaint. We expect players to perform the role they queue for. If you queue as a tank you are expected to tank. If you queue as damage you are expected to be able to do damage.

Essentially we expect others to do their job.

Jeremy

Darkenarlol wrote: »

ZOS allready did everything so you can get only dedicated players of your desireble level of skill..

they gave you your friend list...


so stop whining about fake/bad/lower than your expectaions players

you never can come to adequate solution by forcing someone to do what you think they should do

for example anyone with lower than 40k dps single target is fake dps imo... so my queue always full of fake dd's

No one is forcing anyone to lie about being a tank. And it's not what we think they should - it's what they themselves are saying they are going to do when they sign up as a damn tank.

Also: there is a big difference in someone who lies about being a tank when they aren't so they can cut in line of other players for faster queue times and then an inexperienced or bad player who doesn't measure up to your expectations. You are lumping together two very different sets of players and acting as if they are the same when they aren't.

No one here (at least not that I'm aware of) is suggesting everyone who signs up in the group finder needs to be an experienced awesome player. Anyone who expects that is being unreasonable. it is not however unreasonable to expect the person who signed up as a tank to actually be a tank and taunt things.

LoganEso

A lot of posts but most are missing the point. I have more viable suggestion. Well at least easier to implement as it doesn't require to change anything.

First go to the root of the problem: my DDs queue is usually 20-40mins. If this would be shortened there would be much less fake tanks. No DD wants to select _tank_ when joining the queue but some of us don't really have much choice if they want to play the game instead of sitting in a chair just doing nothing. Sometimes (often) group is never even formed. You cannot expect people to wait indefinitely. 90% of players would start to cheat this way if in the same position day after day. Well I don't, but I understand anyone who does this.

Problem is in fact the unknown inner mechanics of the queue. If you'd just add options (filters) as it was suggested it would be even worse (queues would be longer).
What I suggest for starters is much simpler: make the actual mechanics known and visible. Show the queue so that every person knows his current status. Yes it would be some kind of an approximation but if I see that I'm in the top ten-ish in line I will wait. If I'm not, I will go do other stuff and maybe try later and not sit in the chair with a blank expression on my face for the next half an hour as non-DDs expect from me to do.

There are a lot of ways on how to optimize the queue, but this simple label output would help enormously. Just give us the damn numbers so we know if there's any chance of getting a group in the next hour.

All said, I'm skeptical that ZOS will grant us anything useful as I have some idea of how the queue works and I must say it's not pretty. A simple test for you: Add a fellow DD and join the queue. I never waited more than 10 mins (usually less than 5). I don't know why 2xDD have such priority over DDs solo waiting for more than 30mins. Group finder is implemented pretty badly, but additional filters won't help with people trying to get ahead.


edit: My time of doing the 3 daily undaunted pledges as a DD is 2-3 hours. You can calculate how much of that is spent waiting, doing writs, running around delves or simple quests, never knowing when my group is ready. Not really the best way to enjoy this game.

Grind_Zilla

how about , zenimax imprint a lock for ur build when choosing tank / dd / healer.

same like pve , and pvp option to choose "server" like Na Eu option change has,

most fake tanks / healers is pvp players spaming vigor in dungeons.

LoganEso

Grind_Zilla wrote: »

how about , zenimax imprint a lock for ur build when choosing tank / dd / healer.

same like pve , and pvp option to choose "server" like Na Eu option change has,

most fake tanks / healers is pvp players spaming vigor in dungeons.

It was suggested before. No, this is not a good solution. There are many people running chars that can work as either build. Some can be "transformed" with a press of a button (alphagear). You close many options with such a restriction.
Truthfully, this thread is not such a big problem as everyone is lead to believe. I run queue a lot. It's about 1/10 runs that this poses an actual problem. Kick, re-queue, solved. On the other hand user friendly/useful/working dungeon finder is much to be desired.

Edit: I would also raise minimum CP for vet dungeons. Beginners would need to run more content before they can be regarded as "vet" capable. This would also result in less low level chars to just try their queue luck - hoping they get in a high level group. Also more ESO-mature DDs don't just go _tank_ option on a vet dungeons. Normal dungeons are non-issue.

Aisle9

Funny how none of the solutions include rolling a tank yourselves.

If there were more tanks in the queue, the whole thing would be a non-issue.

Start carrying a heavy armor set, and if you can't be bothered unlocking S&B or UD, grab an ice stick.

Meld777

Aisle9 wrote: »

Funny how none of the solutions include rolling a tank yourselves.
If there were more tanks in the queue, the whole thing would be a non-issue.

If all people in your neighborhood refuse to pay taxes and that's why the roads keep breaking with no money to fix them, just go work 20000x as hard, become a billionaire, pay for the roads yourself. When, actually, you're a passionate high school teacher, and that's what you do best. But hey, if society is full of scumbags, just drop your passion...

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.

The problem are definitely not the people practicing tax evasion. /sarcasm

ckrobinson83

I run a tank unless I'm with my own 4 person group. It's a real tank, taunts, shield and all. I like tanking for the most part, but I gotta tell you -- I'd love to run one of my DPS toons. Thing is, it takes forever to get through the queue as a DPS and I'm not going to sit around wasting time for hours -- so I tank. And that's the reason you get fake tanks -- because it takes far too long to get through the queues. Maybe that's the problem that needs to be address.

shiningforce

This truly is becoming a major problem. I have read quite a few articles and threads on this, I wrote about my experiences the other day and since then keep getting Non-tanks in group. In six runs one after the other in one day I am getting non-tanks queing as tank. Low levels in Normal, they just run around light attacking, you ask if they are even a tank and they ignore you or basically tell you to "F off". In Veteran groups we are getting Sorcerers and such with zero tanking ability just saying "lets go guys we have enough dps", then we wipe.

Its discouraging waiting sometimes up to THIRTY MINUTES to get into a dungeon just to get to the first mob and realize the tank is not a tank as he/she sits behind the group and waits for someone else to pull. I have a friend that just started playing with me and half of his dungeon experiences have been like this and needless to say he is less than thrilled with doing dungeons in the game.

Should make it so that if someone doesn't have a taunt on their skill bar they cant get into the dungeon, this may alleviate newer lower level players posing as tanks. As for higher levels, something else will have to be done, open to options

Agenericname

LoganEso wrote: »

A lot of posts but most are missing the point. I have more viable suggestion. Well at least easier to implement as it doesn't require to change anything.

First go to the root of the problem: my DDs queue is usually 20-40mins. If this would be shortened there would be much less fake tanks. No DD wants to select _tank_ when joining the queue but some of us don't really have much choice if they want to play the game instead of sitting in a chair just doing nothing. Sometimes (often) group is never even formed. You cannot expect people to wait indefinitely. 90% of players would start to cheat this way if in the same position day after day. Well I don't, but I understand anyone who does this.

Problem is in fact the unknown inner mechanics of the queue. If you'd just add options (filters) as it was suggested it would be even worse (queues would be longer).
What I suggest for starters is much simpler: make the actual mechanics known and visible. Show the queue so that every person knows his current status. Yes it would be some kind of an approximation but if I see that I'm in the top ten-ish in line I will wait. If I'm not, I will go do other stuff and maybe try later and not sit in the chair with a blank expression on my face for the next half an hour as non-DDs expect from me to do.

There are a lot of ways on how to optimize the queue, but this simple label output would help enormously. Just give us the damn numbers so we know if there's any chance of getting a group in the next hour.

All said, I'm skeptical that ZOS will grant us anything useful as I have some idea of how the queue works and I must say it's not pretty. A simple test for you: Add a fellow DD and join the queue. I never waited more than 10 mins (usually less than 5). I don't know why 2xDD have such priority over DDs solo waiting for more than 30mins. Group finder is implemented pretty badly, but additional filters won't help with people trying to get ahead.


edit: My time of doing the 3 daily undaunted pledges as a DD is 2-3 hours. You can calculate how much of that is spent waiting, doing writs, running around delves or simple quests, never knowing when my group is ready. Not really the best way to enjoy this game.

There is a choice. If you find yourself in a dungeon as a fake tank, that means at least 2 other people made a different choice.

Jeremy

Aisle9 wrote: »

Funny how none of the solutions include rolling a tank yourselves.

If there were more tanks in the queue, the whole thing would be a non-issue.

Start carrying a heavy armor set, and if you can't be bothered unlocking S&B or UD, grab an ice stick.

What's funny to me is that all of these posters who are telling the rest of us to improvise, adapt and overcome are neglecting the very obvious flaw in their argument. Which is that they are the ones who are actually refusing to improvise, adapt, and overcome because they are the ones who are refusing to adapt to the actual role they are signing up for.

If DPS classes don't like waiting in long lines and want the quick queue times of at tank - then they should improvise, adapt, and overcome and learn how to play as tanks instead of expecting everyone else to adapt to their own inability to be one.

I_B_Squishy

Jeremy wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Funny how none of the solutions include rolling a tank yourselves.

If there were more tanks in the queue, the whole thing would be a non-issue.

Start carrying a heavy armor set, and if you can't be bothered unlocking S&B or UD, grab an ice stick.

Exactly.

Don't like fake tanks? Become a REAL one yourself.

What, you don't want to play tank? Nobody else does either! That's why the queues are so long, and that's why when you finally get a group the *tank* is a DD.

Mintaka5

OP, your first idea, the debuff to damage for support roles is great. I'd support it.

To be less punishing though, is maybe offer perks to healers who heal more than they damage, or meet a healing quota, and tanks who taunt and CC timed quota. As far as the perks are concerned, if these support roles meet the quota, they can be rewarded better gear drops, more gold, or chances for other perks. The DPS roles would not receive any extra perks.

Before everyone gets into a "this will break the game" tirade, this is applied by other MMOs, and it works.

Jeremy

Mintaka5 wrote: »

OP, your first idea, the debuff to damage for support roles is great. I'd support it.

To be less punishing though, is maybe offer perks to healers who heal more than they damage, or meet a healing quota, and tanks who taunt and CC timed quota. As far as the perks are concerned, if these support roles meet the quota, they can be rewarded better gear drops, more gold, or chances for other perks. The DPS roles would not receive any extra perks.

Before everyone gets into a "this will break the game" tirade, this is applied by other MMOs, and it works.

What other MMO's do this?

Taunky

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

If people cannot do decent amount of damage and are in the dungeon just to learn it or for enjoyment then it would be better for everyone to find a 4 man party from a guild or friends instead of expecting to either be carried or to waste people's valuable time with mediocre damage output.

Vice versa. You get what you get in the random dungeon finder, so I suggest you find a party via guild or friends to ensure it goes as quick as you anticipate.

johnbonne

Mintaka5 wrote: »

OP, your first idea, the debuff to damage for support roles is great. I'd support it.

To be less punishing though, is maybe offer perks to healers who heal more than they damage, or meet a healing quota, and tanks who taunt and CC timed quota. As far as the perks are concerned, if these support roles meet the quota, they can be rewarded better gear drops, more gold, or chances for other perks. The DPS roles would not receive any extra perks.

Before everyone gets into a "this will break the game" tirade, this is applied by other MMOs, and it works.

I like the idea of rewarding better performance instead of requiring it, something I thoroughly enjoyed in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning and RIFT's public events, but in the case of the random group finder I'm not so sure of this. Is this what it takes to get people to play their role? This on top of not needing to talk to other people to get a group together, not have to travel to the instance and still get a satchel of random goodies and bonus XP at the end? That to me seems like rewarding unsociable behaviour, or to put it more diplomatically, it seems backwards. Or if we remove the end-of-dungeon goods people already get and replace them with your idea, I could mostly agree to that.

Like I say, I think it's good for new or inexperienced players but for those who know they're abusing the holy trinity required for the group finder, I think it's just a break in their action, unless the quotas were so high that they'd have to be really dedicated to their role.

Also, out of curiosity, what other MMOs do this system besides the two I mentioned in regards to open world content? I'd be interested in seeing how they handle it. ^^

Agenericname

Mintaka5 wrote: »

OP, your first idea, the debuff to damage for support roles is great. I'd support it.

To be less punishing though, is maybe offer perks to healers who heal more than they damage, or meet a healing quota, and tanks who taunt and CC timed quota. As far as the perks are concerned, if these support roles meet the quota, they can be rewarded better gear drops, more gold, or chances for other perks. The DPS roles would not receive any extra perks.

Before everyone gets into a "this will break the game" tirade, this is applied by other MMOs, and it works.

Open world pvp is applied in other MMOs. I'd wager it wouldnt be popular here.

#1 is basically punishing legitimate roles for doing their jobs. Who wants to be punished?

Jayman1000

Meld777 wrote: »

while fakers will lose interest if they hit like wet noodles.

Don't fool yourself. They won't lose interest, they are there to complete the dungeon and could care less if they make less damage or not. The only thing your suggestion is going to achieve is making these groups even MORE ineffective and annoying to participate in since now the fake tank, in addition to not being able to tank, can also not make damage. And this all comes at the huge expense of destroying all flexibility in classes and builds, shoehorning everyone into standard roles. You'll be destroying a core part of the game when using the dungeon finder.

Additionally you will most likely even reduce the number of real tanks since some tank builds can actually do some nice damage; with your suggestion you can be sure they wont be tanking no more. But you can be helluva sure the fake tanks will still be there to assume the group will carry them through.

NicoleRockenbach

There are also quite a few fake healers. Now with the event it got even worse. I was in a dungeon yesterday with 3 sorcerers.

AcadianPaladin

I only pug normals. And I only pug with my real healer and real tank. My healer likes it since she is all about reacting and supporting whatever she gets. My tank usually finishes a pug frustrated though by squishies who charge ahead. I mention this to be clear that I am healer/tank focused. That said, I'd be perfectly happy to have two queue options. One for a 'classic' group (1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps) and one queue for a 'flexible' group - any foursome combo. I'm sure this would routinely be 4 dps as tanks and healers would generally queue for the classic groups. The flex option would at least relieve those dps who choose it with hopefully shorter wait times.

SakuraRush

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I only pug normals. And I only pug with my real healer and real tank. My healer likes it since she is all about reacting and supporting whatever she gets. My tank usually finishes a pug frustrated though by squishies who charge ahead. I mention this to be clear that I am healer/tank focused. That said, I'd be perfectly happy to have two queue options. One for a 'classic' group (1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps) and one queue for a 'flexible' group - any foursome combo. I'm sure this would routinely be 4 dps as tanks and healers would generally queue for the classic groups. The flex option would at least relieve those dps who choose it with hopefully shorter wait times.

This is a good idea.

TastesAllColors

I don't know why people complain about this. Normal dungeons are super easy and most can be soloed by good players with decent gear. (Most) Vet dungeons are soloable with the right build and by expert players. I have been playing eso since beta and I almost always have fun in pug groups. I can count bad experiences on one hand. Really, don't worry so much.

Last night I tanked a random norm pug group and had fun as the only 780 cp there. The rest were all below level 40 and clearly did not know the mechanics. Lord Warden plus Ebon plus Igneous Shields equals baby pugs stayin' alive.

If you are DPS and you just want to que as tank for norm dungeons then unlock some S&B skills, put on basic tanking gear, there are a lot of sets that will do, and play as tank. It isn't hard, every class can tank, you don't really have to change your CP allotments for normal dungeons. Any craftable tanking set plus Blood Spawn plus Endurance should be more than enough for the easier dungeons.

Don't stand in red, BLOCK! and interrupt and you'll be fine.

[edit] BTW, did you know that if you don't like the dungeon the random group tool takes you to you can just port to the one you want and it counts as your daily random? It's true! Hint: FG I on norm takes like five min. to do.

Rungar

real tanks give up the groupfinder after a while. You should expect longer queues and more fake tanks.

the problem is broken dps which will never get addressed. You will quit playing first.