@Kingslayer513 Yeah I didn’t see anyone in this thread ask for the ME to be removed altogether, that would be wack.

I don’t want it to be completely useless to trial score runs, but 12 is still pretty high. It is an Alliance War skill, and therefore should be balanced with a priority on PVP.

I know this hasn’t sat well with some high tier PVE raid lead friends that I talked to personally, but PVE is innately balanced because every group is the same size. Reducing the effect to say 6 players adds another competitive element, as it would reward the scores of those who are best able to adjust and re-allocate player resources.

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

But where will group buff nerf demands by small scalers end?
Healing?
Orbs?
Shards?
Crit resistance?
After all this is an MMO and should be balanced for group play.
Small scale exists but is not the focus of Cyrodiil AvAvA.
I am now starting to get the us vs them feeling and maybe should be thinking about chasing down small scalers which my guild typically doesn't do unless attacked.

You are now being toxic and clearly are missing the huge imbalance issue here. I’ll just refer you to zos’s words once again.

"Due to the pass on mobility, we wanted to ensure you couldn't readily keep this buff active 100% without spending more attention to it."

If the argument is based on ZOS's words, then I would think that having one person in a group literally dedicated to spamming rapids is pretty much the definition of spending lots of attention to it.

For what it's worth, I think the target cap is too high. Reducing the cap to 12 players while changing nothing else would leave PVE unharmed (12 man PVE uses rapids a lot) and would tone it down in large group pvp without nuking its use for medium group pvp.

I think it's really pathetic that people are calling for it to be gutted by removing major expedition all together. As if ZOS hasn't slowed everything down enough already.

With the exception of, if I don't have someone spamming rapids for me, I have to spend 2 of every 4 global cooldowns spamming my ME skill and snare root/immunity.

There is no equivalency. Rapids spam is broken.

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

But where will group buff nerf demands by small scalers end?
Healing?
Orbs?
Shards?
Crit resistance?
After all this is an MMO and should be balanced for group play.
Small scale exists but is not the focus of Cyrodiil AvAvA.
I am now starting to get the us vs them feeling and maybe should be thinking about chasing down small scalers which my guild typically doesn't do unless attacked.

You are now being toxic and clearly are missing the huge imbalance issue here. I’ll just refer you to zos’s words once again.

"Due to the pass on mobility, we wanted to ensure you couldn't readily keep this buff active 100% without spending more attention to it."

If the argument is based on ZOS's words, then I would think that having one person in a group literally dedicated to spamming rapids is pretty much the definition of spending lots of attention to it.

For what it's worth, I think the target cap is too high. Reducing the cap to 12 players while changing nothing else would leave PVE unharmed (12 man PVE uses rapids a lot) and would tone it down in large group pvp without nuking its use for medium group pvp.

I think it's really pathetic that people are calling for it to be gutted by removing major expedition all together. As if ZOS hasn't slowed everything down enough already.

With the exception of, if I don't have someone spamming rapids for me, I have to spend 2 of every 4 global cooldowns spamming my ME skill and snare root/immunity.

There is no equivalency. Rapids spam is broken.

Then just get someone to do it, specialise. You don't go into a trial trying to do everything (if you do good luck getting anywhere) so if you want to be completely optimal specialise your roles in group.

An efficacy rate of 2680% seems remotely balanced to you? Noted.

One of the first times I went into Cyrodiil and made a serious attempt at pvping I came across this ball group seemingly faster than everyone around them while immune to any form of CC I could throw at them. I couldn't really understand what was going on. What was it that was removing my CC seconds after it was applied, while giving them all constant movement speed? It was obvious that it was some kind of shared group buff, because they were all getting it at the same time, and I honestly couldn't believe what I was seeing. Who thought it was a good idea to give this kind of movement and cc immunity advantage to large organized groups? No one could ever cc and pick off one or two people because the moment any CC was applied, it was instantly removed and a speed buff was rewarded.

I later learned after looking through basically every ability that it was Retreating Maneuver that was responsible for this. After examining the ability I was a lot more unimpressed with the """""""""skill"""""""" of this group when it came to "farming" the disorganized pug group I was in of about equal or smaller size. I thought that had to be boring af, but hey, some people get their rocks off on farming bad/disorganized players with an extreme advantage and who am I to judge?

Anyway, from that point on I've honestly believed that Retreating Maneuver is one of, if not the most broken abilities in ESO. The insane advantage it gives to a large group that has just one person dedicated to using this ability regularly should not exist. Now we're taking away god knows how many speed buffs for individual players, but leaving in this absurd ability?

I think OP has a really good point and Retreating Maneuver should probably really be scaled back a bit. Or a lot.

A nerf to Rapids is a buff to Zergs. Besides, I just think about the only change this will bring is to make the game more boring. Hence, ZOS surely will approve.

Dojohoda wrote: »

The only speed enhancer that needs a reasonable adjustment is the swift jewelry trait. Calling for total sweeping change is just bad. We should argue against sweeping changes.

This^^^

Let me give an example of how exactly ZoS handles a problem in balance.

-Speed and Maj expedition were fine before Summerset
-Swift Jewelry trait comes in
-Speed builds are a problem because of Swift
ZoS: "Nerf ALL SPEED IN THE GAME"
-Sweeping changes to utterly destroy movement speed.

This is such a huge problem and they do it ALL THE TIME. oh, your damage shields are broken and unbalanced? Let's make them USELESS. (then revert it because players were upset we did that).

Then in morrowind, oh resource management is a bit too easy? let's revolutionize the way people play their builds all at once.

In all seriousness, it's a completely polarizing mentality. There are no "gradual changes and minor adjustments" to problem aspects of game balance. They sweep in, make something completely useless and then question why players leave the game or QQ endlessly on the forums about aspects of combat or builds they like. i LIKE the idea of a fast moving speed build. i just think you should have to spec a decent amount into it. opportunity cost. But they nerf it so hard that it literally becomes not worth sacrificing SO MUCH.

The term is called balance for a reason. It's the ebb and flow of changes that come in, usually incrementally until a delicate BALANCE is struck. With ZoS, it's either way too good or way too bad. that isn't balance.

Edit: as to the OP's post, if this is what we are going to stay with, I think the best option is to just not let you use it if you're in combat at all. not that whole weird criteria of "damaging and enemy or healing an ally."

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Ok reading this thread it is clear many people have never ran in a "ball group".
In a ball/guild group people specialize to be efficient in their role. They work as one to achieve the goal of killing as many people as possible.
Idk if it's a EU thing but ball groups don't run down single targets and are generally 16 man or less taking on triple if not more their number.

Considering your statement, this obviously is an EU thing. The majority of ball groups on EU server only play X vs less or X vx same number of unorganized randoms and they love to run down single players - that includes chasing solo players with the full 24 man zerg. We even have super ball groups where 2 24-man-groups (with rapidbots, purgers, CC-spammers and coordinated destro-ultis) work together to take keeps defended by randoms.

The last time I saw two organized high-end groups willingly fight each other outside a keep or outpost is more than nine months ago. Usually organized PVP groups avoid each other because killing randoms is easier AP.

Its sad and probably telling a lot about the state of PVP on the EU servers.

You need to realise when I say ball groups I mean groups that are going out there fighting the whole alliance. As yes there's some groups that try to be a ball group but when they actually meet an organised guild group they die in a matter of seconds, doesn't matter if they are 24 man or 50man.

On Vivec there isn't really any organised guild groups anymore, theres Noxious and Zerg Squad they are both predominantly EP. Who don't run more than 18 and only do that when they are against a whole faction back keeping or messing with scrolls.

We don't care about AP tbh we all already have more than we know what to do with, all we want are some good fights which means normally being massively outnumbered or against another Guild; that pop up on either side from time to time. There's no fun in Zerging people down, we leave small scalers alone unless they for some reason they try to fight then it is a fight on their terms and they know the odds.

I invite you to one of our raids to actually see what goes on, message me ingame if you want to see a proper Guild Group.

@W_Shadowborn

@The_Shadowborn Thanks for the offer, will pick you up by it. ;-)

Very curious to see your Guild Group fighting another organized group or even "the whole alliance" and not just rather hapless randoms desperately trying to recapture a ressource or an outpost.

From a PVE perspective, a minor cost increase wouldn’t break anything. Decreasing the number of players affected to 12 would also have minimal impact. Any fewer than this would kill the skill in trials. The fact that purge only hits 6 people (and is not smart about choosing which 6) makes trial healing extremely frustrating at times, and should not be repeated with rapids.

technohic wrote: »

They should treat it like healing with a cap on amount of players it can hit, and people not in your group as possibilities toward that cap.

It makes perfect sense.

Qbiken wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

OP is 100% correct and ball groups fall over and die easily when you take out their rapid spammer.

https://youtu.be/Tk_Gr4gyAzM

You sure about that??

I believe the person you were replying to was being sarcastic. Also, he put words in my mouth that by doing this small scalers / solos / pugs will be able to defeat ball groups after my proposed change.

Alll I'm asking is that this skill be brought in line with EVERY OTHER SOURCE OF MAJOR EXPEDITION AND SNARE IMMUNITY THAT HAS BEEN NERFED TO THE GROUND.

If ZoS wants to revert the self/single-targeted mobility changes across the board and keep Rapids the same, well sign me the **** up.

@PathwayM @Qbiken

Oof that was brutal to watch. But please help me understand what is happening in that video. Watching on mobile.
Did they intentionally take off all their mobility buffa and rapids to demonstrate what the game will be like? If so, kudos. It would be terrible if everyone In cyro was moving at this pace except for the largest groups.

Wait, did they all just toggle walk for the meme?