DarkCrusader wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
DarkCrusader wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »boombazookajd wrote: »
and doesn't stack
Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.
Marshall1289 wrote: »DarkCrusader wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.
We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.
Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.
DarkCrusader wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
ResTandRespeC wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »boombazookajd wrote: »
and doesn't stack
Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.
The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.
These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:
I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:
So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:
Marshall1289 wrote: »DarkCrusader wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.
We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.
Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.DarkCrusader wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289
I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge
Marshall1289 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »DarkCrusader wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.
We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.
Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.DarkCrusader wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289
I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge
No.. No it isn't. Bad news for you . Don't trust tooltips (haven't checked if it is misleading). Trust CP tests.
A while back Blade Cloaks tooltip went up with master-at-arms but is 100% thaum dmg, the opposite may be true for relequen.
On live master-at-arms is 100% effecting relequen.
Marshall1289 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »DarkCrusader wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.
We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.
Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.DarkCrusader wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289
I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge
No.. No it isn't. Bad news for you . Don't trust tooltips (haven't checked if it is misleading). Trust CP tests.
A while back Blade Cloaks tooltip went up with master-at-arms but is 100% thaum dmg, the opposite may be true for relequen.
On live master-at-arms is 100% effecting relequen.
I am not idiot. I dont trust tooltips. I trust damage numbers. Relequen was never ever affected by Master-at-Arms.
I dare you going live and removing all CP from M-a-A to see for yourself
//edit:
Actually since you claim with such 100% certainty M-a-A is affecting relequen I wonder if there is different kind of mischief here. So for the sake of argument and to protect my claim I am saying normal (non ideal) relequen was never ever affected by master at arms.
Marshall1289 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »DarkCrusader wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.
We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.
Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.DarkCrusader wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?
@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289
I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge
No.. No it isn't. Bad news for you . Don't trust tooltips (haven't checked if it is misleading). Trust CP tests.
A while back Blade Cloaks tooltip went up with master-at-arms but is 100% thaum dmg, the opposite may be true for relequen.
On live master-at-arms is 100% effecting relequen.
I am not idiot. I dont trust tooltips. I trust damage numbers. Relequen was never ever affected by Master-at-Arms.
I dare you going live and removing all CP from M-a-A to see for yourself
//edit:
Actually since you claim with such 100% certainty M-a-A is affecting relequen I wonder if there is different kind of mischief here. So for the sake of argument and to protect my claim I am saying normal (non ideal) relequen was never ever affected by master at arms.
I'm at work, but on live I only have imperfect relequen too. Sorry, I shouldn't say 100% because last time I checked was when relequen released with Summerset, maybe they ninja fixed it since then, but look at how long it took them to fix the melee dmg type when it was reported in pts.
Edit: Also it wouldn't make you an idiot, it shouldn't be the player bases responsibility to know not to trust tooltips. It's ZOS's responsibility to fix tooltip calculation errors, it's crazy that they still happen today.
DarkCrusader wrote: »@SodanTok if Relequen has always scaled with Thaumaturge, why was it proccing direct melee damage sets? That’s not what Thaumaturge affects.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »ResTandRespeC wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »boombazookajd wrote: »
and doesn't stack
Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.
The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.
yeah thing about that, not by so much-These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:
I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:
So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1
All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Marshall1289 your number are pretty close to what @Masel92 predicted. a 1.4% difference in dps
Relequen is still the best 5 piece set for Stamina DDs. I mean, it does more ST DPS than Endless Hail on some fights. Just because it won't proc Ravager or Selene doesn't mean that this set isn't BiS anymore.
Question isn't whether to replace Relequen, question is if Yokeda is far more better than Ravager for my stam sorc because of changes.
John_Falstaff wrote: »Mm-m, I do, but before investing into AY, would be interesting to know how big a share in AY's performance Relequen have played, or AY stacks are routinely kept up by light weaves alone. The set's not active on back bar too, due to vMA bow.
Marshall1289 wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »ResTandRespeC wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »boombazookajd wrote: »
and doesn't stack
Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.
The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.
yeah thing about that, not by so much-These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:
I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:
So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1
All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.
I remember that post. Couple things though. What rotations were those in? If it is a typical rotation with a VMA bow back bar, you should sometimes fall off with AY stacks. In my testing even though I cast maybe 3-4 abilities only on the back bar I would get an average uptime of 85-90% on the pts, the stacks also need to be rebuilt and without relequen as melee dmg.. it takes longer to get 5 stacks.
Things that proc AY = light attack (+1), heavy attack (+2), rending slash (+1 not 2, DOT doesn't count)
Things that don't proc AY = absorb stamina/poison enchant, rearming trap, hurricane, crushing weapon, flying blade, relequen
light attack -> rending -> light attack -> rearming trap -> light attack -> hurricane -> light attack -> crushing weapon
So if you lose your stacks, it will take 4 GCD to get back to x5. On PTS on 5 parses I had an average of 84-88% on the x5.
Veiled Heritance with the pts changes must be equal or better then AY. Those tests had 50% major force uptime, we now have +3% weapon dmg from medium armor and minor brutality was increased from 5% to 10% making weapon dmg 8% more valuable then it is on live. Veiled Heritance procs with a 10% chance on ANY dmg, therefor right when you bar swap, you could have as much as 5-10 hits in 1 GCD able to proc it.
Just speculation, testing required.
Edit: tested my claims on PTS. Self-buffed stam sorc on 6m test dummy.
- Ravager with 16,500 hp, 7 medium: 30-49% uptime between 6 parses giving me 42700-43800 dps. Average of +187 to 306 weap dmg. (5 pc)
- Veiled with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 88%-95% uptime between 6 parses giving me 44100-45100 dps. Average of + 352 to 380 weap dmg. (5 pc)
- AY with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 84-90%(x5) uptime between 6 parses giving me 43500-44500 dps. Average of 1500-1800 crit. (5 pc)
In a group with a dk, 10% weapon dmg will do a lot, relying on major force uptime for crit chance viability means veiled is more reliable to me ay is, it also gives a bonus stat with 3k physical resist. You will get higher uptime with Veiled Heritance and it can be procced at range by simply being on the front bar, AY requires you to be in melee range to proc it. For stam sorc, I'm going with Veiled.
LiquidPony wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »ResTandRespeC wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »boombazookajd wrote: »
and doesn't stack
Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.
The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.
yeah thing about that, not by so much-These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:
I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:
So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1
All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.
I remember that post. Couple things though. What rotations were those in? If it is a typical rotation with a VMA bow back bar, you should sometimes fall off with AY stacks. In my testing even though I cast maybe 3-4 abilities only on the back bar I would get an average uptime of 85-90% on the pts, the stacks also need to be rebuilt and without relequen as melee dmg.. it takes longer to get 5 stacks.
Things that proc AY = light attack (+1), heavy attack (+2), rending slash (+1 not 2, DOT doesn't count)
Things that don't proc AY = absorb stamina/poison enchant, rearming trap, hurricane, crushing weapon, flying blade, relequen
light attack -> rending -> light attack -> rearming trap -> light attack -> hurricane -> light attack -> crushing weapon
So if you lose your stacks, it will take 4 GCD to get back to x5. On PTS on 5 parses I had an average of 84-88% on the x5.
Veiled Heritance with the pts changes must be equal or better then AY. Those tests had 50% major force uptime, we now have +3% weapon dmg from medium armor and minor brutality was increased from 5% to 10% making weapon dmg 8% more valuable then it is on live. Veiled Heritance procs with a 10% chance on ANY dmg, therefor right when you bar swap, you could have as much as 5-10 hits in 1 GCD able to proc it.
Just speculation, testing required.
Edit: tested my claims on PTS. Self-buffed stam sorc on 6m test dummy.
- Ravager with 16,500 hp, 7 medium: 30-49% uptime between 6 parses giving me 42700-43800 dps. Average of +187 to 306 weap dmg. (5 pc)
- Veiled with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 88%-95% uptime between 6 parses giving me 44100-45100 dps. Average of + 352 to 380 weap dmg. (5 pc)
- AY with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 84-90%(x5) uptime between 6 parses giving me 43500-44500 dps. Average of 1500-1800 crit. (5 pc)
In a group with a dk, 10% weapon dmg will do a lot, relying on major force uptime for crit chance viability means veiled is more reliable to me ay is, it also gives a bonus stat with 3k physical resist. You will get higher uptime with Veiled Heritance and it can be procced at range by simply being on the front bar, AY requires you to be in melee range to proc it. For stam sorc, I'm going with Veiled.
I'd be interested to see Automaton compared to Veiled Heritance ... I always got significantly better results with Automaton in the past, and that shouldn't be any different now. In practice Ravager ended up being preferable because of the health bonus and the requirement to run Dubious/Artaeum, but now that sustain is in a better place and Ravager is useless, I would guess that Automaton is BiS on a stamplar/stamsorc with bi-stat food.
Great, about time. I guess they met their quota for number of Summersets sold. Funny, last night I bought a ravager weapon and was gonna gold it but decided to wait
I would take briarheart over veiled if you can't keep the AY stack up through backbar.LiquidPony wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »ResTandRespeC wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »boombazookajd wrote: »
and doesn't stack
Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.
The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.
yeah thing about that, not by so much-These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:
I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:
So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1
All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.
I remember that post. Couple things though. What rotations were those in? If it is a typical rotation with a VMA bow back bar, you should sometimes fall off with AY stacks. In my testing even though I cast maybe 3-4 abilities only on the back bar I would get an average uptime of 85-90% on the pts, the stacks also need to be rebuilt and without relequen as melee dmg.. it takes longer to get 5 stacks.
Things that proc AY = light attack (+1), heavy attack (+2), rending slash (+1 not 2, DOT doesn't count)
Things that don't proc AY = absorb stamina/poison enchant, rearming trap, hurricane, crushing weapon, flying blade, relequen
light attack -> rending -> light attack -> rearming trap -> light attack -> hurricane -> light attack -> crushing weapon
So if you lose your stacks, it will take 4 GCD to get back to x5. On PTS on 5 parses I had an average of 84-88% on the x5.
Veiled Heritance with the pts changes must be equal or better then AY. Those tests had 50% major force uptime, we now have +3% weapon dmg from medium armor and minor brutality was increased from 5% to 10% making weapon dmg 8% more valuable then it is on live. Veiled Heritance procs with a 10% chance on ANY dmg, therefor right when you bar swap, you could have as much as 5-10 hits in 1 GCD able to proc it.
Just speculation, testing required.
Edit: tested my claims on PTS. Self-buffed stam sorc on 6m test dummy.
- Ravager with 16,500 hp, 7 medium: 30-49% uptime between 6 parses giving me 42700-43800 dps. Average of +187 to 306 weap dmg. (5 pc)
- Veiled with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 88%-95% uptime between 6 parses giving me 44100-45100 dps. Average of + 352 to 380 weap dmg. (5 pc)
- AY with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 84-90%(x5) uptime between 6 parses giving me 43500-44500 dps. Average of 1500-1800 crit. (5 pc)
In a group with a dk, 10% weapon dmg will do a lot, relying on major force uptime for crit chance viability means veiled is more reliable to me ay is, it also gives a bonus stat with 3k physical resist. You will get higher uptime with Veiled Heritance and it can be procced at range by simply being on the front bar, AY requires you to be in melee range to proc it. For stam sorc, I'm going with Veiled.
I'd be interested to see Automaton compared to Veiled Heritance ... I always got significantly better results with Automaton in the past, and that shouldn't be any different now. In practice Ravager ended up being preferable because of the health bonus and the requirement to run Dubious/Artaeum, but now that sustain is in a better place and Ravager is useless, I would guess that Automaton is BiS on a stamplar/stamsorc with bi-stat food.
Maybe but front barring automation guarantees you lose the buff on backbar. Briarheart gives larger WD (to all damage) and stays for part of backbar rotation. (Proc it at start of front bar rotation, carry over to back)
Marshall1289 wrote: »@LiquidPony if the rotation is 11-12 seconds based on PotL, Endless Hail and Caltrops, that should mean 3/12 giving you 75%, + casting backbar ults and human error you probably get closer to 65-70% uptime. If you use crit surge on a stam sorc or rune focus on stam plar that max 75% uptime changes from 60-66%.
Edit: For a stamplar ravager has to be the best set. That set gives 645 weapon dmg with 60% + uptime and hp bonus for dubious cameron throne users. Easy to buy gold jewelry for 70k (for me at the time) vs golding out jewelry for 220+k per piece.
Biarheart with max 66% uptime is probably closer to 60% in practice?
Briarheart affects all dmg (poison injection/ults) where as automaton doesn't. They are all probably VERY close to one another, but automaton forces you in to a 3 skill back bar rotation and a physical ult to get real value out of it.
If you like to run 4 skills on back bar with crit surge in some content or like me, enjoy using greater storm atronach (shock dmg), automaton seems like the lesser option vs briarheart. Briarheart also gives heals.
I won't bother with either with the 90+ % uptime on veiled, plus I already have the set. Will invest in golding the jewelry . AY is still great and probably the same dps as Veiled. I'd like to think with +8% weapon dmg in a group and the freedom to keep veiled on from range, vs being in melee range to proc AY, Veiled is more versatile. Remember in real boss fights. You need to run between positions when the boss moves or attacks. You will get less practical uptime with the x5 stack on AY then you would on being ranged and bar swapping with Veiled.