Relequen

reprosal

Have done many 6m dummy parses with AY and Ravaging paired with relequen pre-relequen proc nerf and AY was still coming out ahead on me for stamplar and stamblade average wise.

Ravaging had the highest peak but honestly I don’t know why people are getting so upset over this.

ankeor

"Fixed an issue where an overperforming set causing other sets to overperform"

I don't see a problem.

DarkCrusader

@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Master at Arms?

ankeor

DarkCrusader wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.

Ilsabet

Does Relequen have the same issue that Two-Fanged Snake used to have where if you used it with weapons you'd lose the stacks on weapon swap?

MashmalloMan

ankeor wrote: »

DarkCrusader wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.

We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.

Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.

Edit: Scales with thaum on live.

kentgreigrwb17_ESO

This will be important testing when someone gets to it...

ResTandRespeC

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

I really wish I could I test the difference. I have no issues with swapping to AY aside from the small problem of not having 11 friends to farm for AY lol.../cry.

try veiled heritance. Procs has a 10% chance to proc on all damage and is easy to get from Auridon.

and doesn't stack

Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.

The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.

SodanTok

Marshall1289 wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

DarkCrusader wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.

We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.

Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.

DarkCrusader wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289


I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

I really wish I could I test the difference. I have no issues with swapping to AY aside from the small problem of not having 11 friends to farm for AY lol.../cry.

try veiled heritance. Procs has a 10% chance to proc on all damage and is easy to get from Auridon.

and doesn't stack

Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.

The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.

yeah thing about that, not by so much-

These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:

I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:

So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.

MashmalloMan

SodanTok wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

DarkCrusader wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.

We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.

Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.

DarkCrusader wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289


I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge

No.. No it isn't. Bad news for you . Don't trust tooltips (haven't checked if it is misleading). Trust CP tests.

A while back Blade Cloaks tooltip went up with master-at-arms but is 100% thaum dmg, the opposite may be true for relequen.

On live master-at-arms is 100% effecting relequen.

Edit: I'm a goof, it's 100% thaumaturge with imperfect relequen, probably the same with perfect.

SodanTok

Marshall1289 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

DarkCrusader wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.

We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.

Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.

DarkCrusader wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289


I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge

No.. No it isn't. Bad news for you . Don't trust tooltips (haven't checked if it is misleading). Trust CP tests.

A while back Blade Cloaks tooltip went up with master-at-arms but is 100% thaum dmg, the opposite may be true for relequen.

On live master-at-arms is 100% effecting relequen.

I am not idiot. I dont trust tooltips. I trust damage numbers. Relequen was never ever affected by Master-at-Arms.
I dare you going live and removing all CP from M-a-A to see for yourself

//edit:
Actually since you claim with such 100% certainty M-a-A is affecting relequen I wonder if there is different kind of mischief here. So for the sake of argument and to protect my claim I am saying normal (non ideal) relequen was never ever affected by master at arms.

MashmalloMan

SodanTok wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

DarkCrusader wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.

We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.

Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.

DarkCrusader wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289


I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge

No.. No it isn't. Bad news for you . Don't trust tooltips (haven't checked if it is misleading). Trust CP tests.

A while back Blade Cloaks tooltip went up with master-at-arms but is 100% thaum dmg, the opposite may be true for relequen.

On live master-at-arms is 100% effecting relequen.

I am not idiot. I dont trust tooltips. I trust damage numbers. Relequen was never ever affected by Master-at-Arms.
I dare you going live and removing all CP from M-a-A to see for yourself

//edit:
Actually since you claim with such 100% certainty M-a-A is affecting relequen I wonder if there is different kind of mischief here. So for the sake of argument and to protect my claim I am saying normal (non ideal) relequen was never ever affected by master at arms.

I'm at work, but on live I only have imperfect relequen too. Sorry, I shouldn't say 100% because last time I checked was when relequen released with Summerset, maybe they ninja fixed it since then, but look at how long it took them to fix the melee dmg type when it was reported in pts.

Edit: Also it wouldn't make you an idiot, it shouldn't be the player bases responsibility to know not to trust tooltips. It's ZOS's responsibility to fix tooltip calculation errors, it's crazy that they still happen today.

SodanTok

Marshall1289 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

DarkCrusader wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

Most likely it doesn't count as melee damage anymore.

We know that, doesn't answer his question. I'd say that it not being melee damage won't change how CP affects it, that being said, if they are making a pass on fixing the skill to not be melee dmg, because it obviously isn't, why wouldn't they fix it scaling with master at arms instead of thaum.

Personally I hope they don't, I have 22% direct dmg invested and 17% dot invested.

DarkCrusader wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno does this mean Relequen’s damage will now scale with the Thaumaturge CP perk or still from Ironclad?

@DarkCrusader @Marshall1289


I have bad news for you and anyone else, but Relequen was ALWAYS affected by Thaumaturge

No.. No it isn't. Bad news for you . Don't trust tooltips (haven't checked if it is misleading). Trust CP tests.

A while back Blade Cloaks tooltip went up with master-at-arms but is 100% thaum dmg, the opposite may be true for relequen.

On live master-at-arms is 100% effecting relequen.

I am not idiot. I dont trust tooltips. I trust damage numbers. Relequen was never ever affected by Master-at-Arms.
I dare you going live and removing all CP from M-a-A to see for yourself

//edit:
Actually since you claim with such 100% certainty M-a-A is affecting relequen I wonder if there is different kind of mischief here. So for the sake of argument and to protect my claim I am saying normal (non ideal) relequen was never ever affected by master at arms.

I'm at work, but on live I only have imperfect relequen too. Sorry, I shouldn't say 100% because last time I checked was when relequen released with Summerset, maybe they ninja fixed it since then, but look at how long it took them to fix the melee dmg type when it was reported in pts.

Edit: Also it wouldn't make you an idiot, it shouldn't be the player bases responsibility to know not to trust tooltips. It's ZOS's responsibility to fix tooltip calculation errors, it's crazy that they still happen today.

Still will jump on PTS just to make sure, but yes speaking strictly of imperfect Relequen which I farmed like 3rd day of Summerset it always worked from Thaumaturge. Along with bow's (hail procced) poison enchant scaling with Thaumaturge too, this always made me greatly question why most builds so heavily stack direct damage.

DarkCrusader

@SodanTok if Relequen has always scaled with Thaumaturge, why was it proccing direct melee damage sets? That’s not what Thaumaturge affects.

MashmalloMan

DarkCrusader wrote: »

@SodanTok if Relequen has always scaled with Thaumaturge, why was it proccing direct melee damage sets? That’s not what Thaumaturge affects.

Nah. Theres different classifications. "Melee DMG", "Direct Melee DMG", etc that have nothing to do with cp. Just went on live and tested both cp's. Thaumaturge effects Relequen, master at arms does not. I don't know how or when I got mixed up with that and sorry for the misinformation. Now I look like a goof

MashmalloMan

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

I really wish I could I test the difference. I have no issues with swapping to AY aside from the small problem of not having 11 friends to farm for AY lol.../cry.

try veiled heritance. Procs has a 10% chance to proc on all damage and is easy to get from Auridon.

and doesn't stack

Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.

The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.

yeah thing about that, not by so much-

These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:

I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:

So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.

I remember that post. Couple things though. What rotations were those in? If it is a typical rotation with a VMA bow back bar, you should sometimes fall off with AY stacks. In my testing even though I cast maybe 3-4 abilities only on the back bar I would get an average uptime of 85-90% on the pts, the stacks also need to be rebuilt and without relequen as melee dmg.. it takes longer to get 5 stacks.

Things that proc AY = light attack (+1), heavy attack (+2), rending slash (+1 not 2, DOT doesn't count)
Things that don't proc AY = absorb stamina/poison enchant, rearming trap, hurricane, crushing weapon, flying blade, relequen

light attack -> rending -> light attack -> rearming trap -> light attack -> hurricane -> light attack -> crushing weapon

So if you lose your stacks, it will take 4 GCD to get back to x5. On PTS on 5 parses I had an average of 84-88% on the x5.

Veiled Heritance with the pts changes must be equal or better then AY. Those tests had 50% major force uptime, we now have +3% weapon dmg from medium armor and minor brutality was increased from 5% to 10% making weapon dmg 8% more valuable then it is on live. Veiled Heritance procs with a 10% chance on ANY dmg, therefor right when you bar swap, you could have as much as 5-10 hits in 1 GCD able to proc it.

Just speculation, testing required.

Edit: tested my claims on PTS. Self-buffed stam sorc on 6m test dummy.

• Ravager with 16,500 hp, 7 medium: 30-49% uptime between 6 parses giving me 42700-43800 dps. Average of +187 to 306 weap dmg. (5 pc)
• Veiled with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 88%-95% uptime between 6 parses giving me 44100-45100 dps. Average of + 352 to 380 weap dmg. (5 pc)
• AY with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 84-90%(x5) uptime between 6 parses giving me 43500-44500 dps. Average of 1500-1800 crit. (5 pc)

In a group with a dk, 10% weapon dmg will do a lot, relying on major force uptime for crit chance viability means veiled is more reliable to me ay is, it also gives a bonus stat with 3k physical resist. You will get higher uptime with Veiled Heritance and it can be procced at range by simply being on the front bar, AY requires you to be in melee range to proc it. For stam sorc, I'm going with Veiled.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Marshall1289 your number are pretty close to what @Masel92 predicted. a 1.4% difference in dps

MashmalloMan

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Marshall1289 your number are pretty close to what @Masel92 predicted. a 1.4% difference in dps

Yeah but at the time, his was in favor of AY with Veiled doing 1-2% less, mine is in favor of Veiled doing 1-2% more with the argument that we now have more weapon dmg modifiers then we do on live, meaning the weapon dmg of Veiled Heritance is more valuable then when he did those tests originally.

Obviously a full properly executed parse is needed, but quick tests and rough math show that 2% barrier he mentioned back then should be 0 or more in favor of Veiled now that AY is harder to keep up without melee dmg from Relequen.

Izaki

BuddyAces wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Relequen is still the best 5 piece set for Stamina DDs. I mean, it does more ST DPS than Endless Hail on some fights. Just because it won't proc Ravager or Selene doesn't mean that this set isn't BiS anymore.

Question isn't whether to replace Relequen, question is if Yokeda is far more better than Ravager for my stam sorc because of changes.

If you can sustain Yokeda without having to drop your health and use Dubious, then yes of course its better than Ravager.

Izaki

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Mm-m, I do, but before investing into AY, would be interesting to know how big a share in AY's performance Relequen have played, or AY stacks are routinely kept up by light weaves alone. The set's not active on back bar too, due to vMA bow.

5 melee attacks is all it takes to stack Yokeda to max. Once you hit 5 stacks, you stay at five stacks as long as you refresh it at least once every 5 seconds. Hence the fact that when you use Yokeda, you have a rotation that only has 3 skill casts on the back bar at a time. If you perform the rotation correctly, you will have 100% uptime on Yokeda. 5 melee attacks is: LA + Rending Slashes, LA + spammable, LA. That's it. 3 light attacks and 2 skill casts at the begining of the fight and that's it.

Relequen certainly did make it easier to stack up Yokeda after you lost the buff due to mechanics making you spend longer on back bar or something else, but it wasn't the essential part to having a high uptime on it, unlike Selene or Ravager (which is almost trash without Relequen).

LiquidPony

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

I really wish I could I test the difference. I have no issues with swapping to AY aside from the small problem of not having 11 friends to farm for AY lol.../cry.

try veiled heritance. Procs has a 10% chance to proc on all damage and is easy to get from Auridon.

and doesn't stack

Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.

The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.

yeah thing about that, not by so much-

These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:

I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:

So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.

I remember that post. Couple things though. What rotations were those in? If it is a typical rotation with a VMA bow back bar, you should sometimes fall off with AY stacks. In my testing even though I cast maybe 3-4 abilities only on the back bar I would get an average uptime of 85-90% on the pts, the stacks also need to be rebuilt and without relequen as melee dmg.. it takes longer to get 5 stacks.

Things that proc AY = light attack (+1), heavy attack (+2), rending slash (+1 not 2, DOT doesn't count)
Things that don't proc AY = absorb stamina/poison enchant, rearming trap, hurricane, crushing weapon, flying blade, relequen

light attack -> rending -> light attack -> rearming trap -> light attack -> hurricane -> light attack -> crushing weapon

So if you lose your stacks, it will take 4 GCD to get back to x5. On PTS on 5 parses I had an average of 84-88% on the x5.

Veiled Heritance with the pts changes must be equal or better then AY. Those tests had 50% major force uptime, we now have +3% weapon dmg from medium armor and minor brutality was increased from 5% to 10% making weapon dmg 8% more valuable then it is on live. Veiled Heritance procs with a 10% chance on ANY dmg, therefor right when you bar swap, you could have as much as 5-10 hits in 1 GCD able to proc it.

Just speculation, testing required.

Edit: tested my claims on PTS. Self-buffed stam sorc on 6m test dummy.

• Ravager with 16,500 hp, 7 medium: 30-49% uptime between 6 parses giving me 42700-43800 dps. Average of +187 to 306 weap dmg. (5 pc)
• Veiled with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 88%-95% uptime between 6 parses giving me 44100-45100 dps. Average of + 352 to 380 weap dmg. (5 pc)
• AY with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 84-90%(x5) uptime between 6 parses giving me 43500-44500 dps. Average of 1500-1800 crit. (5 pc)

In a group with a dk, 10% weapon dmg will do a lot, relying on major force uptime for crit chance viability means veiled is more reliable to me ay is, it also gives a bonus stat with 3k physical resist. You will get higher uptime with Veiled Heritance and it can be procced at range by simply being on the front bar, AY requires you to be in melee range to proc it. For stam sorc, I'm going with Veiled.

I'd be interested to see Automaton compared to Veiled Heritance ... I always got significantly better results with Automaton in the past, and that shouldn't be any different now. In practice Ravager ended up being preferable because of the health bonus and the requirement to run Dubious/Artaeum, but now that sustain is in a better place and Ravager is useless, I would guess that Automaton is BiS on a stamplar/stamsorc with bi-stat food.

Kanar

I would take briarheart over veiled if you can't keep the AY stack up through backbar.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

I really wish I could I test the difference. I have no issues with swapping to AY aside from the small problem of not having 11 friends to farm for AY lol.../cry.

try veiled heritance. Procs has a 10% chance to proc on all damage and is easy to get from Auridon.

and doesn't stack

Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.

The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.

yeah thing about that, not by so much-

These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:

I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:

So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.

I remember that post. Couple things though. What rotations were those in? If it is a typical rotation with a VMA bow back bar, you should sometimes fall off with AY stacks. In my testing even though I cast maybe 3-4 abilities only on the back bar I would get an average uptime of 85-90% on the pts, the stacks also need to be rebuilt and without relequen as melee dmg.. it takes longer to get 5 stacks.

Things that proc AY = light attack (+1), heavy attack (+2), rending slash (+1 not 2, DOT doesn't count)
Things that don't proc AY = absorb stamina/poison enchant, rearming trap, hurricane, crushing weapon, flying blade, relequen

light attack -> rending -> light attack -> rearming trap -> light attack -> hurricane -> light attack -> crushing weapon

So if you lose your stacks, it will take 4 GCD to get back to x5. On PTS on 5 parses I had an average of 84-88% on the x5.

Veiled Heritance with the pts changes must be equal or better then AY. Those tests had 50% major force uptime, we now have +3% weapon dmg from medium armor and minor brutality was increased from 5% to 10% making weapon dmg 8% more valuable then it is on live. Veiled Heritance procs with a 10% chance on ANY dmg, therefor right when you bar swap, you could have as much as 5-10 hits in 1 GCD able to proc it.

Just speculation, testing required.

Edit: tested my claims on PTS. Self-buffed stam sorc on 6m test dummy.

• Ravager with 16,500 hp, 7 medium: 30-49% uptime between 6 parses giving me 42700-43800 dps. Average of +187 to 306 weap dmg. (5 pc)
• Veiled with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 88%-95% uptime between 6 parses giving me 44100-45100 dps. Average of + 352 to 380 weap dmg. (5 pc)
• AY with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 84-90%(x5) uptime between 6 parses giving me 43500-44500 dps. Average of 1500-1800 crit. (5 pc)

In a group with a dk, 10% weapon dmg will do a lot, relying on major force uptime for crit chance viability means veiled is more reliable to me ay is, it also gives a bonus stat with 3k physical resist. You will get higher uptime with Veiled Heritance and it can be procced at range by simply being on the front bar, AY requires you to be in melee range to proc it. For stam sorc, I'm going with Veiled.

I'd be interested to see Automaton compared to Veiled Heritance ... I always got significantly better results with Automaton in the past, and that shouldn't be any different now. In practice Ravager ended up being preferable because of the health bonus and the requirement to run Dubious/Artaeum, but now that sustain is in a better place and Ravager is useless, I would guess that Automaton is BiS on a stamplar/stamsorc with bi-stat food.

Maybe but front barring automation guarantees you lose the buff on backbar. Briarheart gives larger WD (to all damage) and stays for part of backbar rotation. (Proc it at start of front bar rotation, carry over to back)

UnKnowNKiLLeRR

Kanar wrote: »

Great, about time. I guess they met their quota for number of Summersets sold. Funny, last night I bought a ravager weapon and was gonna gold it but decided to wait

You can still use ravager and Relequen on stam templar, Ravager is one of best sets to pair with relequen on stam templar. (Jabs OP)

LiquidPony

Kanar wrote: »

I would take briarheart over veiled if you can't keep the AY stack up through backbar.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

boombazookajd wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

I really wish I could I test the difference. I have no issues with swapping to AY aside from the small problem of not having 11 friends to farm for AY lol.../cry.

try veiled heritance. Procs has a 10% chance to proc on all damage and is easy to get from Auridon.

and doesn't stack

Why would it? Ravager doesn't. The ~400 weapon damage is pretty much the same as the 10% crit you get from AY too. You can reproc VH while it is up too. So you could have 100% up time.

The reason AY will likely come out ahead in groups and with night blades is the bonus crit dmg modifiers and the ability to keep high uptimes. Since ay procs on all dmg sources even if you stacks fall off switching to your front bar almost immediately gives you your stacks back.

yeah thing about that, not by so much-

These are just examples, but here you see how close these sets are to each other under the given circumstances:

I wanted to add a stamina set comparison, because many people say that advancing yokeda is best, or that ravager is best, or that veiled heritance is best. This shows a full set comparison between those three sets and the respective average damage values you get:

So you see that they are extremely closer to each other, and therefore it is basically not important which one you use. Ravager fluctauates quite strongly in its uptime, veiled heritance and yokeda can reach almost 100% uptimes, but their uptimes are very comparable in long-term fights. To prevent people from saying that this is biased becasue nightblades and templar s have more critical hit damage, here's another comparison for a stamina nightblade:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

All three set with in 2-3%. and in the a calculations, VH and AY are .3% difference. that is right, less then a rounding error, you will have more variation in your dps becuase of a second delay recast of endless.

I remember that post. Couple things though. What rotations were those in? If it is a typical rotation with a VMA bow back bar, you should sometimes fall off with AY stacks. In my testing even though I cast maybe 3-4 abilities only on the back bar I would get an average uptime of 85-90% on the pts, the stacks also need to be rebuilt and without relequen as melee dmg.. it takes longer to get 5 stacks.

Things that proc AY = light attack (+1), heavy attack (+2), rending slash (+1 not 2, DOT doesn't count)
Things that don't proc AY = absorb stamina/poison enchant, rearming trap, hurricane, crushing weapon, flying blade, relequen

light attack -> rending -> light attack -> rearming trap -> light attack -> hurricane -> light attack -> crushing weapon

So if you lose your stacks, it will take 4 GCD to get back to x5. On PTS on 5 parses I had an average of 84-88% on the x5.

Veiled Heritance with the pts changes must be equal or better then AY. Those tests had 50% major force uptime, we now have +3% weapon dmg from medium armor and minor brutality was increased from 5% to 10% making weapon dmg 8% more valuable then it is on live. Veiled Heritance procs with a 10% chance on ANY dmg, therefor right when you bar swap, you could have as much as 5-10 hits in 1 GCD able to proc it.

Just speculation, testing required.

Edit: tested my claims on PTS. Self-buffed stam sorc on 6m test dummy.

• Ravager with 16,500 hp, 7 medium: 30-49% uptime between 6 parses giving me 42700-43800 dps. Average of +187 to 306 weap dmg. (5 pc)
• Veiled with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 88%-95% uptime between 6 parses giving me 44100-45100 dps. Average of + 352 to 380 weap dmg. (5 pc)
• AY with 16,280 hp, 6 med/1 heav: 84-90%(x5) uptime between 6 parses giving me 43500-44500 dps. Average of 1500-1800 crit. (5 pc)

In a group with a dk, 10% weapon dmg will do a lot, relying on major force uptime for crit chance viability means veiled is more reliable to me ay is, it also gives a bonus stat with 3k physical resist. You will get higher uptime with Veiled Heritance and it can be procced at range by simply being on the front bar, AY requires you to be in melee range to proc it. For stam sorc, I'm going with Veiled.

I'd be interested to see Automaton compared to Veiled Heritance ... I always got significantly better results with Automaton in the past, and that shouldn't be any different now. In practice Ravager ended up being preferable because of the health bonus and the requirement to run Dubious/Artaeum, but now that sustain is in a better place and Ravager is useless, I would guess that Automaton is BiS on a stamplar/stamsorc with bi-stat food.

Maybe but front barring automation guarantees you lose the buff on backbar. Briarheart gives larger WD (to all damage) and stays for part of backbar rotation. (Proc it at start of front bar rotation, carry over to back)

That is true, but Automaton has still been stronger than Briarheart in my tests for quite some time. In fact, on my stamplar and stamsorc, I have been parsing better with Automaton than I have with AY/Ravager/VH/Briarheart or any other set at least since Summerset. The problem was that using Dubious/Artaeum, in those tests I had ~14.5k health or something like that. So after swapping from 7 medium to 6/1 and using a health glyph on a big piece, I'd end up parsing higher with Ravager (although it was still very close and Ravager has more variance).

Briarheart uptime is capped at 66.6% ... 66.6% of 449 is 299. So the effective value of Briarheart assuming you proc it off cooldown is 299 weapon damage on average.

With Automaton it's just important to run a rotation the same way you would with AY ... minimizing time spent on the back bar. So on a stamplar for instance, the rotation is Hail/Trops/Inject on the backbar and then PotL/Jabs/Rending/Jabs/Trap/Blazing Spear/PotL/LA/swap or something like that. I'm not sure on the exact time but I would guess it is close to 75% frontbar time, at which point you're getting basically the same buff as Briarheart with perfect uptime (and uptime isn't ever perfect, I'd have to go dig up some CMX parses but I'm pretty sure it's usually around 62.5% uptime in my parses). And also, with Automaton, you're always going to have your max stat bonus when all of your damage is running (and especially, during those last few very important high value Endless Hail ticks). With Briarheart it won't be uncommon to have the buff drop off and miss your last spammables and those high-value Endless hail ticks at the end of the duration.

Worth testing further I'm sure but like I said, I've always had better results with Automaton than with Briarheart.

MashmalloMan

@LiquidPony if the rotation is 11-12 seconds based on PotL, Endless Hail and Caltrops, that should mean 3/12 giving you 75%, + casting backbar ults and human error you probably get closer to 65-70% uptime. If you use crit surge on a stam sorc or rune focus on stam plar that max 75% uptime changes from 60-66%.

Edit: For a stamplar ravager has to be the best set. That set gives 645 weapon dmg with 60% + uptime and hp bonus for dubious cameron throne users. Easy to buy gold jewelry for 70k (for me at the time) vs golding out jewelry for 220+k per piece.

Biarheart with max 66% uptime is probably closer to 60% in practice?

Briarheart affects all dmg (poison injection/ults) where as automaton doesn't. They are all probably VERY close to one another, but automaton forces you in to a 3 skill back bar rotation and a physical ult to get real value out of it.

If you like to run 4 skills on back bar with crit surge in some content or like me, enjoy using greater storm atronach (shock dmg), automaton seems like the lesser option vs briarheart. Briarheart also gives heals.

I won't bother with either with the 90+ % uptime on veiled, plus I already have the set. Will invest in golding the jewelry . AY is still great and probably the same dps as Veiled. I'd like to think with +8% weapon dmg in a group and the freedom to keep veiled on from range, vs being in melee range to proc AY, Veiled is more versatile. Remember in real boss fights. You need to run between positions when the boss moves or attacks. You will get less practical uptime with the x5 stack on AY then you would on being ranged and bar swapping with Veiled.

Bevik

Let's wait until the final patch, shall we? Hope you are all right and don't need to mindlessly farm a trial for weapons.

Stibbons

Good!

John_Falstaff

@Izaki , it's more or less what my concern's about. ^^ I have four skills in my back bar rotation (with no spammable, just DoTs and one heavy), so definitely will have to alter it.

Oh, and then there's another side effect of this unfortunate but fix. Seems like Relequen won't be of any help with procs to Twin Blade and Blunt now? That brings back the eternal question of whether axe+dagger in Murkmire will yield to double daggers in (finally) decisive fashion or not. ^^

LiquidPony

Marshall1289 wrote: »

@LiquidPony if the rotation is 11-12 seconds based on PotL, Endless Hail and Caltrops, that should mean 3/12 giving you 75%, + casting backbar ults and human error you probably get closer to 65-70% uptime. If you use crit surge on a stam sorc or rune focus on stam plar that max 75% uptime changes from 60-66%.

Edit: For a stamplar ravager has to be the best set. That set gives 645 weapon dmg with 60% + uptime and hp bonus for dubious cameron throne users. Easy to buy gold jewelry for 70k (for me at the time) vs golding out jewelry for 220+k per piece.

Biarheart with max 66% uptime is probably closer to 60% in practice?

Briarheart affects all dmg (poison injection/ults) where as automaton doesn't. They are all probably VERY close to one another, but automaton forces you in to a 3 skill back bar rotation and a physical ult to get real value out of it.

If you like to run 4 skills on back bar with crit surge in some content or like me, enjoy using greater storm atronach (shock dmg), automaton seems like the lesser option vs briarheart. Briarheart also gives heals.

I won't bother with either with the 90+ % uptime on veiled, plus I already have the set. Will invest in golding the jewelry . AY is still great and probably the same dps as Veiled. I'd like to think with +8% weapon dmg in a group and the freedom to keep veiled on from range, vs being in melee range to proc AY, Veiled is more versatile. Remember in real boss fights. You need to run between positions when the boss moves or attacks. You will get less practical uptime with the x5 stack on AY then you would on being ranged and bar swapping with Veiled.

Obviously not definitive but I did a half dozen parses with each of Automaton/Briarheart/Veiled Heritance and the results are ... inconclusive. These are just solo 3mil parses on a stamplar, with bi-stat food, Perfected Relequen and Velidreth. 3 x Bloodthirsty jewelry, Nirn/Poison dagger, Infused/Berserker axe, Infused/Absorb Stam bow. On average the three sets in question were very, very similar with this setup.

Here are CMX reports for the *best* parse I hit out of each of the three sets.

Briarheart (48.3k):

Veiled Heritance (48.8k):

Automaton (47.7k):

Oddly enough my best Veiled Heritance parse had the lowest uptime (82% versus most of the rest which were 89%), but that was due to some better crit rates elsewhere and probably some minor rotational inefficiencies.

Automaton was pretty consistently about 47-47.5k for me, the other pairings varied from 46.5-48.5 or so (on most of the Veiled parses where I got 82%, which is 4 procs on the 3mil, I was around 46.5-47k).

Will do more testing ... maybe level Vampirism and do them on the 6mil instead, but honestly I doubt there's a huge difference between any of the three in the end. Will need to level some things out as for instance the Automaton parse above had garbage crit on Ballista, which can make a pretty big difference. * After a bit of crit farming with Automaton I hit a 48.4k max.