NBrookus wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Ballgroups did get nerfed though. Major evasion - 25% less aoe damage across the board. Since most classes/specs will find a way to incorporate that into their skills/Set-up somehow, as it's generally too good to pass up.

Ball groups will also be running Gossamer and Quick Cloak, probably with greater uptime.

ZS ran Gossamer the patch it came out. The uptime across the board is really low. So I'm not quite sure if it's worth it, tbh.

And to whoever said Earthgore was the main issue - find me a good ball-group that still relies on Earthgore. The set fell out of favour for so many other sets. Like rly.

Edit: I can only speak from a healer's perspective in raid, but slotting dual wield on front bar(with 10,5k stamina on Sotha) to use quick cloak is gonna be impossible. Unless you're a templar. But templars have bad healing output in total compared to other classes, so running more than 1 templar healer isn't really optimised either. On Vivec I can see it working out, but you'll still limit yourself to dual wield. Which isn't really beneficial to keep on your backbar, compared to e.g. a vma resto or something.

But yeah, for sure. I mean - I can make a list of every way you can kill a raid. It's honestly not that hard, but you need to be able to identify the moment when the raid is most vulnerable and capitalise on the 213213213 rollbacks that happen frequently. Usually the enemy faction outnumbers the raid, so picking off one target and making sure that target can't be ressed, means that the raid eventually will lose more and more people. And then.. rip.

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Ballgroups did get nerfed though. Major evasion - 25% less aoe damage across the board. Since most classes/specs will find a way to incorporate that into their skills/Set-up somehow, as it's generally too good to pass up.

Ball groups will also be running Gossamer and Quick Cloak, probably with greater uptime.

ZS ran Gossamer the patch it came out. The uptime across the board is really low. So I'm not quite sure if it's worth it, tbh.

And to whoever said Earthgore was the main issue - find me a good ball-group that still relies on Earthgore. The set fell out of favour for so many other sets. Like rly.

Edit: I can only speak from a healer's perspective in raid, but slotting dual wield on front bar(with 10,5k stamina on Sotha) to use quick cloak is gonna be impossible. Unless you're a templar. But templars have bad healing output in total compared to other classes, so running more than 1 templar healer isn't really optimised either. On Vivec I can see it working out, but you'll still limit yourself to dual wield. Which isn't really beneficial to keep on your backbar, compared to e.g. a vma resto or something.

But yeah, for sure. I mean - I can make a list of every way you can kill a raid. It's honestly not that hard, but you need to be able to identify the moment when the raid is most vulnerable and capitalise on the 213213213 rollbacks that happen frequently. Usually the enemy faction outnumbers the raid, so picking off one target and making sure that target can't be ressed, means that the raid eventually will lose more and more people. And then.. rip.

If gossamer has a 6 target cap, it's going to be meta for ball-groups.

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Ballgroups did get nerfed though. Major evasion - 25% less aoe damage across the board. Since most classes/specs will find a way to incorporate that into their skills/Set-up somehow, as it's generally too good to pass up.

Ball groups will also be running Gossamer and Quick Cloak, probably with greater uptime.

ZS ran Gossamer the patch it came out. The uptime across the board is really low. So I'm not quite sure if it's worth it, tbh.

And to whoever said Earthgore was the main issue - find me a good ball-group that still relies on Earthgore. The set fell out of favour for so many other sets. Like rly.

Edit: I can only speak from a healer's perspective in raid, but slotting dual wield on front bar(with 10,5k stamina on Sotha) to use quick cloak is gonna be impossible. Unless you're a templar. But templars have bad healing output in total compared to other classes, so running more than 1 templar healer isn't really optimised either. On Vivec I can see it working out, but you'll still limit yourself to dual wield. Which isn't really beneficial to keep on your backbar, compared to e.g. a vma resto or something.

But yeah, for sure. I mean - I can make a list of every way you can kill a raid. It's honestly not that hard, but you need to be able to identify the moment when the raid is most vulnerable and capitalise on the 213213213 rollbacks that happen frequently. Usually the enemy faction outnumbers the raid, so picking off one target and making sure that target can't be ressed, means that the raid eventually will lose more and more people. And then.. rip.

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.

But they always win in the end. Why? Because there’s nothing my group can do to block their rezzed. Granted, they usually outnumber us 2 to 1, but as soon as we have a good ult dump that takes a few of them out, the rest will stand over their bodies, put up every healing and AOE ground target ability they have (blocking us from coming in because we can’t outheal that and we can’t kill them without ult dumps due to their earthgores and our smaller numbers) and they body block for the rezzers.

The rezzes get everyone up again and they’re all fully buffed before we have ulti again.

It’s interesting actually - most of my group’s wipes to ball groups happen while we’re trying in vain to prevent them from rezzing.

The flip side is that my group can kite away and use forward camps if we lose one or two. But unlike rezzing, forward camps have a timer.

One of these days we’ll have to get two small scale groups into a fight with a ball group so that the numbers are even, and we’ll be able to stagger our our own ult dumps and still get past the earthgores. That happened organically a few times during mid year mayhem and the results were as expected.

But if we small scalers need a rapids b**** next patch to have the same speed as the slower-to-react ball groups, were gonna be in trouble. At that point, and at that size of a group, we may as well just adopt their strategies too.

EDIT: should my group be able to wipe a ball group with double numbers? Honestly? Probably not.

BUT the reason we shouldn’t be able to wipe them should be something other than the fact that they can rez an infinite number of times with no consequence. And the reason next patch shouldn’t be that the ball groups full of mag players are faster and more mobile than us.

If the reason was that they just simply outhealed, outpositioned, or out DPS’d us, I’d be happy. And sometimes that IS why they win. But that isn’t the normal reason.

The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

Minno wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.

Not talking about Swift

So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...

I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.

From what I see, the devs' concern was players staying at max speed for long periods of time and using that as damage mitigation by making it hard to target them.

In that sense, ball groups using rapids might be hard to kill, but they aren't hard to target.

But anyway, ZOS' changes do tend to benefit organized groups, which isn't that surprising when you consider that Cyrodiil is largely designed for organized groups of varying sizes.

I don't even feel like the changes ZOS makes are specifically to benefit organized groups, it's just that no matter what you do organized groups are going to be able to take advantage of the tools at their disposal much better than disorganized zerglings. I find this neither surprising nor bad. If you and a bunch of other people take the time to work together and complement each other's setup, specializing where you need to and supporting group minimum requirements where that works out better, then you should expect and deserve to be rewarded by performing well. I can't even begin to imagine the gaming hellscape we'd live in if people got punished for being good.

The problem is how zos promote "casuality", making zero IQ gameplay most effective. Remember how ball-groups were created? It was same small-scallers that had to stack in higher and higher numbers to fight unorganized zerg back coz zos constantly nerfing things to fight outnumbered.
Nowdays running ball-group doesnt mean you good, it means vice&versa. It require only use specific utility sets; adopt pve role and spam 2-3 support/aoe skills based on role; stack as tight as possible and completely disable your own brains submiting to orders of leader - it completely abandon of self-identity to be just a drone in the hive under control of hivemind. It definition of what zerging is but even more brainless, that people hide behind fancy word "raiding" coz ego doesnt allow them to accept simply fact that it is just form of zerging.
Coz of how easy to run this form of zerg - when you meet those "raiders" outside of their blob they explode as popkorn, leaving a lot of funny whispers like "you won 1v3 coz we are in raid-setup".
Saying it I agree with OP - why Rapid Maneuver wasnt addressed with new mechanic of speed? It easily accepted speedbuff and snare immunity not just for caster but for group. We can keep spedbuff to repay for high cost but snare immunity for potential 30sec without even being the one who used skill is what promoting brainless gameplay. I like nerf to momentum but no point to nerf Momentum that require to use 2h, activate skill every 4sec to gain benefit to yourself when you can just join blobs and get speed and root immunity without invest anything into it.
So, to make it inline with speed changes it should retain it speedbuff for full duration but no longer provide snare immunity, only one morph to purge already applied snares as now, i.e. what Scales was couple updates before. Wana tool that buff mobility of full group - ok, fair as it is alliance war skill; wana tool that allow group to buff mobility and desingage from any fight with almost no effort - it even sounds OP. If you want access to such powerfull mechanic as snare immunity you have to use self-buff by youself.
Such change would be fair in light of previous ones- it wont affect player per-se but affect zerg; same as all 4.2.2 changes not affect zerg but only players per-se. Right now it one-sided.

It's amazing how you can say so much without any of it being true. As someone who runs in an organized group I can say with absolute clarity that you have no idea what you're talking about. We have to make very careful decisions with our gear depending on our role and our class, not just use the same utility sets. We have to fight to fit all the things on our bar we need the same as everyone else, not just run 2-3 AoE skills. And we have to make many decisions as individuals, not just mindlessly follow crown with no input or feedback. We also don't instantly squish when we're out of the raid. That would be a pretty terrible state since we often have to break off to take out a rogue counter-siege or perform some other important task on our own.

The only truth you touch upon is how it's harder for us to go up against people in a 1vX build, but you laugh it off even though that's a completely expected and appropriate outcome. People who are equipping themselves for large raid battles are going to make different decisions for their gear and skill choices than 1vX/SomeVxers, and it's a credit to ZOS that those decisions matter and cause you to perform better in your designated role. Now maybe it's just different and worse over on EU, I don't know, but here on PC NA our organized guilds field some excellent players and I completely resent the insinuations you're making about them just because you don't like the mode of combat they go for (you know, the mode of combat the game was literally advertised to contain).

The spirit of the thread is one of sarcasm and ridicule that speed was impacted for solo players but larger raids were not.

Aside from that I detest threads where players get salty their builds got harmed and try to bring down others in a push for "consistency". Though these speed changes only will force players to stack together and we all know how that will play out for server performance, because zos can't peel devs working on cosmetic/crown store crap to fix the lag in 2 patches.

My official feedback? unnerf speed options, don't touch speed pots and leave rapids alone. Instead speed cap or add diminishing returns so someone doesn't hit cap so easily while someone wanting to trade max resources/pots to gain speed doesn't feel too punished.

My joking sarcastic feedback? Nerf everything because my slow templar can't have fun outside vamp, why should you? lol.

As much as I love that suggestion, ZoS needs to sell the "Rings of Blinding Speed" to someone, so their move is kind of obvious... nerf everything else, no now swift is not something desirable, but mandatory.

P.S. I miss my "Boots of Blinding Speed"... maybe I'll go pay a visit to good old Morrowind during Murkmire.

Ballgroups did get nerfed though. Major evasion - 25% less aoe damage across the board.

That buffs ball groups, 25% less aoe from the attacking single or small group, while -25% won't even be noticeable when getting hit with 20+ steel tornadoes and aoe ults, while perma snared,

But hey, if people quit going to Cyrodiil they will stop complaining about lag.

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Thraben wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Or earthgore pops and you don’t kill any of them.

Back to original topic, the reason why zos didnt nerf rapids is because the buff gets removed when u cast an ability, unlike other sources of expedition. Lets be honest, the swift trait is overperforming.

Thogard wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Or earthgore pops and you don’t kill any of them.

And EG has a really long CD. I can only speak from my own experiences, but EG is pretty meh compared to a whole lot of other sets you can run. But for some reason, EG recieves all the hatred.

And @Thogard Let me ask you - do your small-scale group, expect to kill a fully optimised raid, where everyone has one specific role to fill, and they're more than you? I'm sorry, but that seems unlikely. I can, again, only speak for myself and my own experiences with ZS: But we'll not zerg down those 4 innocent small-scalers on a resource. And frankly, a lot of the raid-players in ZS are also frequent small-scalers, so expecting to kill them because they're "just pugs alone" is a stretch.

And the moment a small-scale group meets an enemy group with more people - with above-potato-level players, it's hard to win the fight. (There were a couple of threads earlier on the forums that whined about not being able to kill non-potatoes 3v6/2v9) or so. I don't remember anyway). Small-scaling got way harder, as people got tankier and they'll usually venture in larger groups at some point.

But I invite, whoever's got any questions or concerns or want ideas on how to kill a raid to reach out to me. And I'll happily join voice comms some time and explain it from my PoV - and provide ideas on how to efficiently kill'm.

And if you find it hard to outrun a raid.. don't run AWAY from them. That's the dumbest thing you'll do. Because you'll just be stuck in their aoe longer. If you wanna avoid most of a group's damage - dodge-roll through the group. Then you get behind them and away from storms/detos/aoes. Gives you time to prepare for when they (usually) come running back as well.

And since storms goes through walls/floors, it's honestly not wise to LOS around tiny pillars either. Just run through them. Then you avoid most of their damage. But most people prefers to stand idle in front and wait to be ran over.

In 95% of the situations, you can predict where the raid is gonna push/run to. Avoid that spot(you can do that being slow af, since it's so projected) and you'll neverdie to a ball-group again.

I have no issues with not being able to kill a larger organized raid as long as the reason behind it is justified. If I can’t kill them because their magplars are able to predict my DBoS dumps and have remembrance going, or if I can’t kill them because their players are tap blocking the dumps, or if I can’t kill them because they’ve got all our damage fully debugged, etc... I’m ok with it.

But none of the large group healers play at that level, not on PC NA at least. You only see that level of skillful play in the small scale community.

What I’m not ok with is:
1. Can’t kill them because the larger, Magicka based groups are faster than smaller, Stam groups due to a speed pot nerf / balance decision that will specifically target us
2. We kill a few but they rez up with zero consequence for having been killed. Through repeated rezzing, eventually someone on my team lags and fails to properly kite, (or what happened last time was our healer ran out of speed pots lol). One tiny mistake from us means we wipe.
3. Their healer is afk but wearing earthgore. Four+ of them. GG

And you can't kill them because they(good healers, that is) proactively casts healing springs in front of the raid, instead of on the raid, so there's always some HoT to take the Dawnbreaker-hit. And remembrance is trash - it's stationary. Even small-scalers are running healing springs(at least or so i've seen). They just put a few down before they choose to do something, to proactively heal. That's not any different from how raids play, except they do it in a much larger scale. What I am also not okay with, is you thinking that running in a raid means we turn out brains off and just follows a crown and spams ne button. Which sure as [snip] ain't the case.

I can only speak from my own experiences again.. But i can tell you that if ZS has a bad raid(and we do) it's only ALWAYS because we're braindead and/or unfocused. It's that simple, really. Being braindead is the certain death in a fast-paced raid like that. Every single healing spring makes you lose rapid maneuver, capitalise on that and you'll see how a raid will die.


And I can promise you one thing, mass-ressing is equally annoying for the ball-group. When we've killed 30 out of the 50 people, and we pull out for 3s to get an overview of the battlefield / get resources or pot off cd.. They're all ressed already. So the ressing is equally annoying for a ball-group, and it's beena while ago, but I've been advocating for a change to Soul Gems. Or ressing in general. You can't be ressed more than every 1 minute or so. Or even 30s cooldown will go a really long way. It's never ending the fight for the ball-group, either. So that's not just you, mate

I'll say it again. Earthgore is overrated in a raid.

Xsorus wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Or earthgore pops and you don’t kill any of them.

And EG has a really long CD. I can only speak from my own experiences, but EG is pretty meh compared to a whole lot of other sets you can run. But for some reason, EG recieves all the hatred.

And @Thogard Let me ask you - do your small-scale group, expect to kill a fully optimised raid, where everyone has one specific role to fill, and they're more than you? I'm sorry, but that seems unlikely. I can, again, only speak for myself and my own experiences with ZS: But we'll not zerg down those 4 innocent small-scalers on a resource. And frankly, a lot of the raid-players in ZS are also frequent small-scalers, so expecting to kill them because they're "just pugs alone" is a stretch.

And the moment a small-scale group meets an enemy group with more people - with above-potato-level players, it's hard to win the fight. (There were a couple of threads earlier on the forums that whined about not being able to kill non-potatoes 3v6/2v9) or so. I don't remember anyway). Small-scaling got way harder, as people got tankier and they'll usually venture in larger groups at some point.

But I invite, whoever's got any questions or concerns or want ideas on how to kill a raid to reach out to me. And I'll happily join voice comms some time and explain it from my PoV - and provide ideas on how to efficiently kill'm.

And if you find it hard to outrun a raid.. don't run AWAY from them. That's the dumbest thing you'll do. Because you'll just be stuck in their aoe longer. If you wanna avoid most of a group's damage - dodge-roll through the group. Then you get behind them and away from storms/detos/aoes. Gives you time to prepare for when they (usually) come running back as well.

And since storms goes through walls/floors, it's honestly not wise to LOS around tiny pillars either. Just run through them. Then you avoid most of their damage. But most people prefers to stand idle in front and wait to be ran over.

In 95% of the situations, you can predict where the raid is gonna push/run to. Avoid that spot(you can do that being slow af, since it's so projected) and you'll neverdie to a ball-group again.

1. Earthgore doesn't have a long cooldown. Its less then a minute....
2. If Earthgore is so Meh, why the hell does every single ball group I fight run multiple Earthgores... Oh because its Mehness can easily save you from a Wipe.

Yeah. But that minute is enough for a raid to wipe.

Also, I have no idea. I haven't ran EG for at least 2 months now, and we're doing just fine, maybe even better than with EG. We substituted it out for something else - and it feels like it provides more for us in the grand scheme of things anyway. As I'm pointing out, I can speak from *my* experiences in a raid, and the way we decide to play. Not from what other raids do.

More than 1 EG can proc on the same guy. I can only speak frm my experiences again, butwhen we fight other raids.. Who for some reason still runs EG, we aim to proc that before we kill'm again. EG is not a factor after that first initial proc.

Thraben wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If gossamer has a 6 target cap, it's going to be meta for ball-groups.

Magblades get that buff for free. StamSorcs use Quick Cloak anyway and Templers and Wardens don´t need it to survive. Plus, Orbs are the only realistic way to proc it in time before the fight is over.

It´s only the third best Cyro support set, far behind Transmutation and SPC; maybe even Imperium is better.

We'll see!

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Or earthgore pops and you don’t kill any of them.

And EG has a really long CD. I can only speak from my own experiences, but EG is pretty meh compared to a whole lot of other sets you can run. But for some reason, EG recieves all the hatred.

And @Thogard Let me ask you - do your small-scale group, expect to kill a fully optimised raid, where everyone has one specific role to fill, and they're more than you? I'm sorry, but that seems unlikely. I can, again, only speak for myself and my own experiences with ZS: But we'll not zerg down those 4 innocent small-scalers on a resource. And frankly, a lot of the raid-players in ZS are also frequent small-scalers, so expecting to kill them because they're "just pugs alone" is a stretch.

And the moment a small-scale group meets an enemy group with more people - with above-potato-level players, it's hard to win the fight. (There were a couple of threads earlier on the forums that whined about not being able to kill non-potatoes 3v6/2v9) or so. I don't remember anyway). Small-scaling got way harder, as people got tankier and they'll usually venture in larger groups at some point.

But I invite, whoever's got any questions or concerns or want ideas on how to kill a raid to reach out to me. And I'll happily join voice comms some time and explain it from my PoV - and provide ideas on how to efficiently kill'm.

And if you find it hard to outrun a raid.. don't run AWAY from them. That's the dumbest thing you'll do. Because you'll just be stuck in their aoe longer. If you wanna avoid most of a group's damage - dodge-roll through the group. Then you get behind them and away from storms/detos/aoes. Gives you time to prepare for when they (usually) come running back as well.

And since storms goes through walls/floors, it's honestly not wise to LOS around tiny pillars either. Just run through them. Then you avoid most of their damage. But most people prefers to stand idle in front and wait to be ran over.

In 95% of the situations, you can predict where the raid is gonna push/run to. Avoid that spot(you can do that being slow af, since it's so projected) and you'll neverdie to a ball-group again.

I have no issues with not being able to kill a larger organized raid as long as the reason behind it is justified. If I can’t kill them because their magplars are able to predict my DBoS dumps and have remembrance going, or if I can’t kill them because their players are tap blocking the dumps, or if I can’t kill them because they’ve got all our damage fully debugged, etc... I’m ok with it.

But none of the large group healers play at that level, not on PC NA at least. You only see that level of skillful play in the small scale community.

What I’m not ok with is:
1. Can’t kill them because the larger, Magicka based groups are faster than smaller, Stam groups due to a speed pot nerf / balance decision that will specifically target us
2. We kill a few but they rez up with zero consequence for having been killed. Through repeated rezzing, eventually someone on my team lags and fails to properly kite, (or what happened last time was our healer ran out of speed pots lol). One tiny mistake from us means we wipe.
3. Their healer is afk but wearing earthgore. Four+ of them. GG

And you can't kill them because they(good healers, that is) proactively casts healing springs in front of the raid, instead of on the raid, so there's always some HoT to take the Dawnbreaker-hit. And remembrance is trash - it's stationary. Even small-scalers are running healing springs(at least or so i've seen). They just put a few down before they choose to do something, to proactively heal. That's not any different from how raids play, except they do it in a much larger scale. What I am also not okay with, is you thinking that running in a raid means we turn out brains off and just follows a crown and spams ne button. Which sure as [snip] ain't the case.

I can only speak from my own experiences again.. But i can tell you that if ZS has a bad raid(and we do) it's only ALWAYS because we're braindead and/or unfocused. It's that simple, really. Being braindead is the certain death in a fast-paced raid like that. Every single healing spring makes you lose rapid maneuver, capitalise on that and you'll see how a raid will die.


And I can promise you one thing, mass-ressing is equally annoying for the ball-group. When we've killed 30 out of the 50 people, and we pull out for 3s to get an overview of the battlefield / get resources or pot off cd.. They're all ressed already. So the ressing is equally annoying for a ball-group, and it's beena while ago, but I've been advocating for a change to Soul Gems. Or ressing in general. You can't be ressed more than every 1 minute or so. Or even 30s cooldown will go a really long way. It's never ending the fight for the ball-group, either. So that's not just you, mate

I'll say it again. Earthgore is overrated in a raid.

As long as earthgore comes off of cooldown faster than ults do, and your raid is outnumbering the opponents, it won’t be able to wipe the ball group because we won’t be able to hurt them after we ult dump and they begin rezzing their dead.

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Or earthgore pops and you don’t kill any of them.

And EG has a really long CD. I can only speak from my own experiences, but EG is pretty meh compared to a whole lot of other sets you can run. But for some reason, EG recieves all the hatred.

And @Thogard Let me ask you - do your small-scale group, expect to kill a fully optimised raid, where everyone has one specific role to fill, and they're more than you? I'm sorry, but that seems unlikely. I can, again, only speak for myself and my own experiences with ZS: But we'll not zerg down those 4 innocent small-scalers on a resource. And frankly, a lot of the raid-players in ZS are also frequent small-scalers, so expecting to kill them because they're "just pugs alone" is a stretch.

And the moment a small-scale group meets an enemy group with more people - with above-potato-level players, it's hard to win the fight. (There were a couple of threads earlier on the forums that whined about not being able to kill non-potatoes 3v6/2v9) or so. I don't remember anyway). Small-scaling got way harder, as people got tankier and they'll usually venture in larger groups at some point.

But I invite, whoever's got any questions or concerns or want ideas on how to kill a raid to reach out to me. And I'll happily join voice comms some time and explain it from my PoV - and provide ideas on how to efficiently kill'm.

And if you find it hard to outrun a raid.. don't run AWAY from them. That's the dumbest thing you'll do. Because you'll just be stuck in their aoe longer. If you wanna avoid most of a group's damage - dodge-roll through the group. Then you get behind them and away from storms/detos/aoes. Gives you time to prepare for when they (usually) come running back as well.

And since storms goes through walls/floors, it's honestly not wise to LOS around tiny pillars either. Just run through them. Then you avoid most of their damage. But most people prefers to stand idle in front and wait to be ran over.

In 95% of the situations, you can predict where the raid is gonna push/run to. Avoid that spot(you can do that being slow af, since it's so projected) and you'll neverdie to a ball-group again.

I have no issues with not being able to kill a larger organized raid as long as the reason behind it is justified. If I can’t kill them because their magplars are able to predict my DBoS dumps and have remembrance going, or if I can’t kill them because their players are tap blocking the dumps, or if I can’t kill them because they’ve got all our damage fully debugged, etc... I’m ok with it.

But none of the large group healers play at that level, not on PC NA at least. You only see that level of skillful play in the small scale community.

What I’m not ok with is:
1. Can’t kill them because the larger, Magicka based groups are faster than smaller, Stam groups due to a speed pot nerf / balance decision that will specifically target us
2. We kill a few but they rez up with zero consequence for having been killed. Through repeated rezzing, eventually someone on my team lags and fails to properly kite, (or what happened last time was our healer ran out of speed pots lol). One tiny mistake from us means we wipe.
3. Their healer is afk but wearing earthgore. Four+ of them. GG

And you can't kill them because they(good healers, that is) proactively casts healing springs in front of the raid, instead of on the raid, so there's always some HoT to take the Dawnbreaker-hit. And remembrance is trash - it's stationary. Even small-scalers are running healing springs(at least or so i've seen). They just put a few down before they choose to do something, to proactively heal. That's not any different from how raids play, except they do it in a much larger scale. What I am also not okay with, is you thinking that running in a raid means we turn out brains off and just follows a crown and spams ne button. Which sure as [snip] ain't the case.

I can only speak from my own experiences again.. But i can tell you that if ZS has a bad raid(and we do) it's only ALWAYS because we're braindead and/or unfocused. It's that simple, really. Being braindead is the certain death in a fast-paced raid like that. Every single healing spring makes you lose rapid maneuver, capitalise on that and you'll see how a raid will die.


And I can promise you one thing, mass-ressing is equally annoying for the ball-group. When we've killed 30 out of the 50 people, and we pull out for 3s to get an overview of the battlefield / get resources or pot off cd.. They're all ressed already. So the ressing is equally annoying for a ball-group, and it's beena while ago, but I've been advocating for a change to Soul Gems. Or ressing in general. You can't be ressed more than every 1 minute or so. Or even 30s cooldown will go a really long way. It's never ending the fight for the ball-group, either. So that's not just you, mate

I'll say it again. Earthgore is overrated in a raid.

Ive been assuming certain parallels between NA and EU that might not be valid.

Can you post a link to a vid of your guild in action, with the comms audible?

Rapids should have a cap to it. I agree with @cpuScientist . Make it affect 4 people at most, and add a cast time to it. A 1 second cast time sounds good. And no, speed pots should not be nerfed. They were fine as they are currently in live. ZOS stop reacting and start thinking. That's not hard to ask right?

I also think that rezzing should be penalized separate of interruptions. Perhaps, the larger the group you are partied with, the longer your resurrection timer should be before you can accept the resurrection. The fact that if you die despite being in a large raid who has access to lots of healing and buffs, should penalize you for dying. The fact that a raid failed to keep you alive, should be punishable. Yes, indeed...a timer sounds nice. The larger the group, the longer that timer is before you can be restored.

ZOS think of it this way. Checks and balances should be at every level of gameplay in PvP. From solo player, to small scalle, to large scale. I do think all forms are needed. But currently there is no significant check for large scale raiders. They lag out the server, each member in that raid has access to heals, buffs, movement (thanks to you), damage, and resurrections. People join a large group due to security and the ability to depend on many others if that individual makes a mistake. I think that if an individual/individuals dies within a raid, then that's a very large failure as a whole on the raid group (which ultimately means that at least 6 other people didn't account for or mistaked themselves in their inability to help that person(s) survive). That sort of mistake should have consequences. As of right now, being in such a large group has no consequences, and again at every level of play there should be some significant consequences. As a solo player you deal with the siginificant consequence of dying often and having to rez at a keep each and every time. As a small scale you are dependant on someone to escape to put a forward camp (which has a timer). That is a significant consequence as this requires excellent maneuverability and placement to execute a well placed camp to get your small group up and running again. A raid? Well they have none. If enough individuals in a raid fail to keep a person or multiple people alive, the consequence should be a resurrection timer.