Rofl at the speed nerfs; Guess who wasn't nerfed ...Ball Groups
Xsorus
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Just as I called it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos
ESO and GW2 PvP videos
25
-
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swifthttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...1 -
Sinolai✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...
I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.5 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...
I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.
I was just having a little fun with the OP. But thanks for helping ;P1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...
I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.
From what I see, the devs' concern was players staying at max speed for long periods of time and using that as damage mitigation by making it hard to target them.
In that sense, ball groups using rapids might be hard to kill, but they aren't hard to target.
But anyway, ZOS' changes do tend to benefit organized groups, which isn't that surprising when you consider that Cyrodiil is largely designed for organized groups of varying sizes.3 -
killahsin✭✭✭once again the eso community has cried so hard that ZoS has nerfed fun. This forum is full of crying. After being gone 2 years and coming back I remember why i never came to the forums.9
-
revonine✭✭✭✭once again the eso community has cried so hard that ZoS has nerfed fun. This forum is full of crying. After being gone 2 years and coming back I remember why i never came to the forums.
It's not entirely the communities fault. At least not the people that go out of their way to give detailed and polite feedback. ZOS just either ignores the feedback entirely or somehow completely misunderstands the point. They have no idea how cyrodill open world is played.Edited by revonine on October 1, 2018 11:06PM15 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...
I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.
From what I see, the devs' concern was players staying at max speed for long periods of time and using that as damage mitigation by making it hard to target them.
In that sense, ball groups using rapids might be hard to kill, but they aren't hard to target.
But anyway, ZOS' changes do tend to benefit organized groups, which isn't that surprising when you consider that Cyrodiil is largely designed for organized groups of varying sizes.
I don't even feel like the changes ZOS makes are specifically to benefit organized groups, it's just that no matter what you do organized groups are going to be able to take advantage of the tools at their disposal much better than disorganized zerglings. I find this neither surprising nor bad. If you and a bunch of other people take the time to work together and complement each other's setup, specializing where you need to and supporting group minimum requirements where that works out better, then you should expect and deserve to be rewarded by performing well. I can't even begin to imagine the gaming hellscape we'd live in if people got punished for being good.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster6 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lol you know what, I agree. Nerf rapids so it's aligned with the speed changes
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual7 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...
I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.
From what I see, the devs' concern was players staying at max speed for long periods of time and using that as damage mitigation by making it hard to target them.
In that sense, ball groups using rapids might be hard to kill, but they aren't hard to target.
But anyway, ZOS' changes do tend to benefit organized groups, which isn't that surprising when you consider that Cyrodiil is largely designed for organized groups of varying sizes.
I don't even feel like the changes ZOS makes are specifically to benefit organized groups, it's just that no matter what you do organized groups are going to be able to take advantage of the tools at their disposal much better than disorganized zerglings. I find this neither surprising nor bad. If you and a bunch of other people take the time to work together and complement each other's setup, specializing where you need to and supporting group minimum requirements where that works out better, then you should expect and deserve to be rewarded by performing well. I can't even begin to imagine the gaming hellscape we'd live in if people got punished for being good.
Yes, thats pretty much exactly how I see it. Organized groups are far more effective than disorganized groups at taking advantage of changes, and the larger the better. So if its a buff, the organized groups use it better than anyone else. If its a nerf, organized groups adapt better than anyone else.
And I agree that's not a problem. Admittedly, I play in an organized group whenever possible, so I'll cop to being biased.3 -
killahsin✭✭✭I agree with minno. Nerf rapids so everyone melts equally. No-one should be able to escape or mitigate impending doom.3
-
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Admittedly, I play in an organized group whenever possible, so I'll cop to being biased.
Same here, but I have absolute certainty in the foundations of our argument nonetheless.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The mobility nerfs are a buff to ball groups. Immobilization and snare counters are essential to fighting them outside of another ball group, as is Major Expedition.
I played in Cyro last night after being away for months. I play only sporadically now, so this is normal for me. Every time I come back, I'm shocked by how ridiculous ball groups are and how unenjoyable they are to encounter when you're not part of one.5 -
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ballgroups did get nerfed though. Major evasion - 25% less aoe damage across the board. Since most classes/specs will find a way to incorporate that into their skills/Set-up somehow, as it's generally too good to pass up.
Although, a nerf to Rapid Maneuver would also mean you would have to decrease the cost by a lot. I mean, 6k stamina for a skill that only makes you immune to snares... That only works on the people in your group, and that you lose every time you cast a skill... Having the longer duration on snare immunity and speed, is fair when you consider the extremely high cost. It costs 6k stamina afterall.
I've been playing in a ball-group for.. 2 years or so now. If there is no rapid maneuver, the raid is significantly slower. But there's always ways to work around it. Even if they nerfed Rapids to 4s major expedition and 4s snare removal/immunity...There's already 2 or 3 options that has been talked about and/or discussed, that can easily replace maneuver. Regarding ballgroups, that is. Maneuver is simply just the most efficient at the moment. There's always ways to adapt, and as a ballgroup, you constantly have to adapt. Because the terms of your fights change.
You can change the game however you want. But you'll never get rid of ball-groups. The good ones will always find ways to adapt, as long as there are players enabling them.Ignorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
PC - EU.
Lieblingsjunge(AD) - Racechanged Argonian :< | AR 50 - No double AP or Bleakers involved |
Sits-On-Cacti(DC) - Problem?
Fail-With-Tail(AD) - Healing Springs-spammer :<
Tiny Liebs(EP) - Very Tiny. Also heals.
Lieblingsmädchen(DC) - Magplar is love.
The Dominàtrix(AD) - Chains, whip, whip, whip.
Fluffy Furball Kitten(DC) - Kittycat, meow.
Your Face(EP) - People make bad jokes about my name =(
Liebs-With-Trees(AD) - Male argo with a big tail :>
Officer/Sandwitch of Zerg Squad
My title: The Maneater, Destroyer of Maneuvers, Bane of Potatoes, she who devours them, The Black Hole, the humorless, first of her name.6 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭A duration nerf to rapids won't affect ball grps much, because the buff doesn't last long during combat anyway. And it is the ball grps who tend to have a dedicated rapids "bot" who can afford to spam it, unlike solo/small scale players or less organized zerglings. A duration nerf would only make it less convenient for travelling arround.4 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...
I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.
Well, Retreating Maneuver's buff can NOT be nerfed away, because it is ESSENTIAL to quality of life in town, riding down roads, etc. In its strong form -- snare-breaking and so on -- it's also central to farming and thieving builds. I.e., in the huge fraction of the game that isn't concerned with combat, Retreating Maneuvers is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT SKILL IN THE GAME for quality of life.5 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...
I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.
Well, Retreating Maneuver's buff can NOT be nerfed away, because it is ESSENTIAL to quality of life in town, riding down roads, etc. In its strong form -- snare-breaking and so on -- it's also central to farming and thieving builds. I.e., in the huge fraction of the game that isn't concerned with combat, Retreating Maneuvers is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT SKILL IN THE GAME for quality of life.
Shhhh just let it happen. "We have removed the major expedition buff from rapids since it was overperforming. If you want to run fast, you'll have to log off and go for a run. This will be a buff if you never play video games or fancy flirting with the opposite sex. "Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual8 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
The problem is how zos promote "casuality", making zero IQ gameplay most effective. Remember how ball-groups were created? It was same small-scallers that had to stack in higher and higher numbers to fight unorganized zerg back coz zos constantly nerfing things to fight outnumbered.VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »A ball group all wearing swift jewelry would be a sight to see.
Not talking about Swift
So what you're saying is, this is another thread about Swift? I'm confused...
I think this is about the nerf to ALL major expedition buff durations, EXCEPT retreating manouver.
From what I see, the devs' concern was players staying at max speed for long periods of time and using that as damage mitigation by making it hard to target them.
In that sense, ball groups using rapids might be hard to kill, but they aren't hard to target.
But anyway, ZOS' changes do tend to benefit organized groups, which isn't that surprising when you consider that Cyrodiil is largely designed for organized groups of varying sizes.
I don't even feel like the changes ZOS makes are specifically to benefit organized groups, it's just that no matter what you do organized groups are going to be able to take advantage of the tools at their disposal much better than disorganized zerglings. I find this neither surprising nor bad. If you and a bunch of other people take the time to work together and complement each other's setup, specializing where you need to and supporting group minimum requirements where that works out better, then you should expect and deserve to be rewarded by performing well. I can't even begin to imagine the gaming hellscape we'd live in if people got punished for being good.
Nowdays running ball-group doesnt mean you good, it means vice&versa. It require only use specific utility sets; adopt pve role and spam 2-3 support/aoe skills based on role; stack as tight as possible and completely disable your own brains submiting to orders of leader - it completely abandon of self-identity to be just a drone in the hive under control of hivemind. It definition of what zerging is but even more brainless, that people hide behind fancy word "raiding" coz ego doesnt allow them to accept simply fact that it is just form of zerging.
Coz of how easy to run this form of zerg - when you meet those "raiders" outside of their blob they explode as popkorn, leaving a lot of funny whispers like "you won 1v3 coz we are in raid-setup".
Saying it I agree with OP - why Rapid Maneuver wasnt addressed with new mechanic of speed? It easily accepted speedbuff and snare immunity not just for caster but for group. We can keep spedbuff to repay for high cost but snare immunity for potential 30sec without even being the one who used skill is what promoting brainless gameplay. I like nerf to momentum but no point to nerf Momentum that require to use 2h, activate skill every 4sec to gain benefit to yourself when you can just join blobs and get speed and root immunity without invest anything into it.
So, to make it inline with speed changes it should retain it speedbuff for full duration but no longer provide snare immunity, only one morph to purge already applied snares as now, i.e. what Scales was couple updates before. Wana tool that buff mobility of full group - ok, fair as it is alliance war skill; wana tool that allow group to buff mobility and desingage from any fight with almost no effort - it even sounds OP. If you want access to such powerfull mechanic as snare immunity you have to use self-buff by youself.
Such change would be fair in light of previous ones- it wont affect player per-se but affect zerg; same as all 4.2.2 changes not affect zerg but only players per-se. Right now it one-sided.Edited by Cinbri on October 2, 2018 7:42AM9 -
Bergzorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Change it to only affect the caster. Wait, no, change it to only affect me.no CP PvP PC/EU
EP Zergborn
DC Zerg Beacon
guild master, raid leader, janitor, and only member of Zergbored1 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lieblingsjunge wrote: »You can change the game however you want. But you'll never get rid of ball-groups. The good ones will always find ways to adapt, as long as there are players enabling them.
It's not about getting rid of ball groups, it's about balancing them against other playstyles.
I thought ball groups were in a very good place from ESO 2.3 through 3.0. During that period, decent randoms had the realistic potential to capitalize on errors by even strong groups to win. But since 3.1 and the introduction of Earthgore, ball groups have been disproportionately strong. I don't think Earthgore is the only reason, but it's still a big one. Countless times tonight I isolated a ball group player from their pack, only for Earthgore to come to the rescue to allow them to reset with their teammates. In 3.0, a lot of those would have been kills.
I enjoy almost all ESO PVP playstyles from truly solo to surfing to small/medium/large groups. I used to enjoy playing ball groups, but it became really boring after 3.1.Edited by zyk on October 2, 2018 7:40AM3 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Small scalers won’t be able to fight ball groups anymore. At present, our only strategy is to kite them out and hope they get separated, while trying to run in, burst, And immediately get out. Like a pack of wolves on a herd of buffalo.
If they nerf speedpots, the group with a rapids b**** will be the only one with full maj expedition uptime. The buffalo will be faster than the wolves. We’ll get trampled.
If they nerf the uptime on speed pots, most of my guild will probably end up quitting. Being able to kite is the only thing that allows us to fight outnumbered. This is because the Zergs and ball groups can out-rez us. Their numbers grow as more zerglings wander in. Our numbers stay the same. Eventually we get outnumbered and have to kite away to avoid pulling in even more zerglings to the fight.
Without maj expedition, only stamblades will be able to disengage from Zergs or ball groups due to their access to cloak.Edited by Thogard on October 2, 2018 7:57AMPC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp21 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Couldn't have said it better.Small scalers won’t be able to fight ball groups anymore. At present, our only strategy is to kite them out and hope they get separated, while trying to run in, burst, And immediately get out. Like a pack of wolves on a herd of buffalo.
If they nerf speedpots, the group with a rapids b**** will be the only one with full maj expedition uptime. The buffalo will be faster than the wolves. We’ll get trampled.
If they nerf the uptime on speed pots, most of my guild will probably end up quitting. Being able to kite is the only thing that allows us to fight outnumbered. This is because the Zergs and ball groups can out-rez us. Their numbers grow as more zerglings wander in. Our numbers stay the same. Eventually we get outnumbered and have to kite away to avoid pulling in even more zerglings to the fight.
Without maj expedition, only stamblades will be able to disengage from Zergs or ball groups due to their access to cloak.0 -
StamWhipCultist✭✭✭✭✭Lieblingsjunge wrote: »You can change the game however you want. But you'll never get rid of ball-groups. The good ones will always find ways to adapt, as long as there are players enabling them.
It's not about getting rid of ball groups, it's about balancing them against other playstyles.
I thought ball groups were in a very good place from ESO 2.3 through 3.0. During that period, decent randoms had the realistic potential to capitalize on errors by even strong groups to win. But since 3.1 and the introduction of Earthgore, ball groups have been disproportionately strong. I don't think Earthgore is the only reason, but it's still a big one. Countless times tonight I isolated a ball group player from their pack, only for Earthgore to come to the rescue to allow them to reset with their teammates. In 3.0, a lot of those would have been kills.
I enjoy almost all ESO PVP playstyles from truly solo to surfing to small/medium/large groups. I used to enjoy playing ball groups, but it became really boring after 3.1.
randoms against Zerg Squad?
Yeah, right.1 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm going to wait for the actual patch to drop before i decide if i quit again.
But every pts update i seem to get closer and closer to quiting though.
Zos always go over the top with changes or are just out of touch with their actual game.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...4 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lieblingsjunge wrote: »Ballgroups did get nerfed though. Major evasion - 25% less aoe damage across the board. Since most classes/specs will find a way to incorporate that into their skills/Set-up somehow, as it's generally too good to pass up.
Ball groups will also be running Gossamer and Quick Cloak, probably with greater uptime.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lieblingsjunge wrote: »Ballgroups did get nerfed though. Major evasion - 25% less aoe damage across the board. Since most classes/specs will find a way to incorporate that into their skills/Set-up somehow, as it's generally too good to pass up.
Ball groups will also be running Gossamer and Quick Cloak, probably with greater uptime.
Correct, though quick cloak was already popular. Now that buff will be available without having to DW or slot the skill.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYHO7FRsQAA