Rofl at the speed nerfs; Guess who wasn't nerfed ...Ball Groups

PathwayM

My stamsorc on live was also not nerfed. Good Riddance to the heavy armor swift fm meta...

Teeba_Shei

VaranisArano wrote: »

Like anything else, if its a buff, organized raids will use it better than almost anyone else, and the larger the raid the better they'll do. If its a nerf, organized groups will adapt better than almost anyone else.

So I'm not saying "Dont nerf it." I'm just saying that if you nerf Earthgore, the better organized raids are going to adjust just fine and everyone else less organized or more dependent on Earthgore are going to be weaker in comparison.

I'm aboslutely fine with ball groups who are skilled and organized. It isn't ball groups I have a problem with, but earthgore. When there are a bunch of 20k hp light armor players back pedaling and 6 people in your group drop dawnbreakers on them and then 5 earthgores proc and they don't die .....breath taking.

IxSTALKERxI

If you were gonna lower target cap for rapids it would have to be 12 or 6. Six would make sense as it is the same as the healing cap. Four doesn't really fit the group comps well.

Xsorus, make an AD toon and join the zerg.

Derra

ZOS showcased that they can make (de)buffs have a downtime - with the example of duroks bane.

Maybe just implement it for rapids that you can´t be affected by rapids again in the next 8s?
If you break it early then you get a period of no speed.

WreckfulAbandon

Rapids doesn't need a nerf if they don't touch speed pots and un-nerf all of our major expedition skills.

Translation: Rapids needs a serious nerf

zyk

In theory, ZOS could modify the Major Expedition component of Rapids without changing Major Gallop so mounted use would not be impacted.

Regarding Earthgore, it's still very strong and very widely used on NA; yes, by good groups too. A lot has changed since it was introduced, so perhaps ball groups would still be OP without it, but to me fighting ball groups has been night and day different since it was introduced in 3.1.

Minno

Why so serious everyone?!

Here's more joking feedback:
- full at cap movement speed for players ina group lower than 4.
- normal movement speed for groups between 4-12
- 24 player groups must pay for movement stones to avoid a 90% snare that's not removed by immunity. Crown store price = 3000.
- zergs can move at full speed, but get friendly fire turned on unless in a group.

IAVITNI

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Or earthgore pops and you don’t kill any of them.

And EG has a really long CD. I can only speak from my own experiences, but EG is pretty meh compared to a whole lot of other sets you can run. But for some reason, EG recieves all the hatred.

And @Thogard Let me ask you - do your small-scale group, expect to kill a fully optimised raid, where everyone has one specific role to fill, and they're more than you? I'm sorry, but that seems unlikely. I can, again, only speak for myself and my own experiences with ZS: But we'll not zerg down those 4 innocent small-scalers on a resource. And frankly, a lot of the raid-players in ZS are also frequent small-scalers, so expecting to kill them because they're "just pugs alone" is a stretch.

And the moment a small-scale group meets an enemy group with more people - with above-potato-level players, it's hard to win the fight. (There were a couple of threads earlier on the forums that whined about not being able to kill non-potatoes 3v6/2v9) or so. I don't remember anyway). Small-scaling got way harder, as people got tankier and they'll usually venture in larger groups at some point.

But I invite, whoever's got any questions or concerns or want ideas on how to kill a raid to reach out to me. And I'll happily join voice comms some time and explain it from my PoV - and provide ideas on how to efficiently kill'm.

And if you find it hard to outrun a raid.. don't run AWAY from them. That's the dumbest thing you'll do. Because you'll just be stuck in their aoe longer. If you wanna avoid most of a group's damage - dodge-roll through the group. Then you get behind them and away from storms/detos/aoes. Gives you time to prepare for when they (usually) come running back as well.

And since storms goes through walls/floors, it's honestly not wise to LOS around tiny pillars either. Just run through them. Then you avoid most of their damage. But most people prefers to stand idle in front and wait to be ran over.

In 95% of the situations, you can predict where the raid is gonna push/run to. Avoid that spot(you can do that being slow af, since it's so projected) and you'll neverdie to a ball-group again.

I have no issues with not being able to kill a larger organized raid as long as the reason behind it is justified. If I can’t kill them because their magplars are able to predict my DBoS dumps and have remembrance going, or if I can’t kill them because their players are tap blocking the dumps, or if I can’t kill them because they’ve got all our damage fully debugged, etc... I’m ok with it.

But none of the large group healers play at that level, not on PC NA at least. You only see that level of skillful play in the small scale community.

What I’m not ok with is:
1. Can’t kill them because the larger, Magicka based groups are faster than smaller, Stam groups due to a speed pot nerf / balance decision that will specifically target us
2. We kill a few but they rez up with zero consequence for having been killed. Through repeated rezzing, eventually someone on my team lags and fails to properly kite, (or what happened last time was our healer ran out of speed pots lol). One tiny mistake from us means we wipe.
3. Their healer is afk but wearing earthgore. Four+ of them. GG

And you can't kill them because they(good healers, that is) proactively casts healing springs in front of the raid, instead of on the raid, so there's always some HoT to take the Dawnbreaker-hit. And remembrance is trash - it's stationary. Even small-scalers are running healing springs(at least or so i've seen). They just put a few down before they choose to do something, to proactively heal. That's not any different from how raids play, except they do it in a much larger scale. What I am also not okay with, is you thinking that running in a raid means we turn out brains off and just follows a crown and spams ne button. Which sure as [snip] ain't the case.

I can only speak from my own experiences again.. But i can tell you that if ZS has a bad raid(and we do) it's only ALWAYS because we're braindead and/or unfocused. It's that simple, really. Being braindead is the certain death in a fast-paced raid like that. Every single healing spring makes you lose rapid maneuver, capitalise on that and you'll see how a raid will die.


And I can promise you one thing, mass-ressing is equally annoying for the ball-group. When we've killed 30 out of the 50 people, and we pull out for 3s to get an overview of the battlefield / get resources or pot off cd.. They're all ressed already. So the ressing is equally annoying for a ball-group, and it's beena while ago, but I've been advocating for a change to Soul Gems. Or ressing in general. You can't be ressed more than every 1 minute or so. Or even 30s cooldown will go a really long way. It's never ending the fight for the ball-group, either. So that's not just you, mate

I'll say it again. Earthgore is overrated in a raid.

You are equating a raid to a zerg. I can't think of a single solo/small scale player that believes they should be able to wipe an organized group.

Your counter argument of Healing Springs is moot since players who do that are almost 100% in a raid and not a zerg.

Now if you are arguing against the "only small scale players play at that level" statement, than I agree that a raid player is likely to be just as skilled overall as a small scale player. Situational awareness may differ (in terms of how information is processed and prioritized) but both types of players should be able to switch between solo and raid with relative ease.

I would add in that most raids of the caliber of that you describe are not likely to target small scale groups since, as you said, many small scale themselves and Crowns of raids are usually aware that small scale groups are looking for a good fight and will have little to no impact on objective gameplay. This would skew perception of small scale players as the skilled raid players never actually engage in combat with them.

The real issue for small scale players is the skill gap constantly shrinking, not due to player skill but to CP, passive over heals and mitigation along with damage proc sets that require no thought to be used to minimum effect that lacks counters, especially in an outnumbered situation. YOUR playstyle is not the issue.

For example, the fact that I can build a heavy armor DK in heavy and invest 100% into mitigation and out dps a magsorc wearing nothing but Zaan and Shield Breaker is broken AF

WhipSmartMcoy

How exactly do you nerf a ball group?
I'm sorry but I can't forsee any possible way to stop 20 people from running over whatever dummies stand in their path.
I've seen ball groups get taken down by small scale before but the truly organized groups are going to do their ball Zerg thing no matter what the devs do.

BrokenGameMechanics

The quick, agile, movement play style is now no longer an option. It was already severaly imperiled with the removal of Evasion. With the removal of movement from the game that style is now gone. As a consequence without Movement Medium Armor went from hard to play with to a complete non-option.

What is left are:

PVP - Heavy Armor, Ball Group and Uliti Spam
PVE - Stack (don't move) and Heal Spam.

Both mindless play styles and tactics.

It's a shame to see a niche, while not optimal, but effective and fun style of play that actually required time and practice to utilize effectively removed from the game.

VaranisArano

WhipSmartMcoy wrote: »

How exactly do you nerf a ball group?
I'm sorry but I can't forsee any possible way to stop 20 people from running over whatever dummies stand in their path.
I've seen ball groups get taken down by small scale before but the truly organized groups are going to do their ball Zerg thing no matter what the devs do.

You can nerf what they use, but you cant nerf their organization.

If its a nerf, organized groups adapt better than anyone else, and thus get stronger relative to everyone else.

If its a buff, organized groups use it better than anyone else.


The only way to truly nerf a ball group is friendly fire or severely limiting the number of players in a group - both of which are contrary to the design of Cyrodiil, so much so that we might as well call it a different PVP mode entirely. Even if we go to only small scale with no groups larger than 4, well, just look at the complaints about premades in Battlegrounds. In ESO's PVP, organized groups almost always dominate their weight category, and superior organization can allow them to take on many times their number of disorganized oppoenents.

Lieblingsjunge

Synapsis123 wrote: »

If earthgore really isn't a problem and you think it sucks then you shouldn't care if its nerfed. Instead you sit here fighting for it not to be nerfed despite every ball group having 4-10 of them.

Earthgore hard carries bad players that would've normally died. It is basically an aoe cheat death with a very short cooldown. How is it okay for a set like that to have a 35 second cooldown while a set like phoenix, which only protects one person, has a 10 minute cooldown? Groups should be punished for basically afking while balling up, but instead they are rewarded. There is a real lack of counterplay to ball groups with earthgore and that is the issue with that set.

Myah. Personally I don't mind seeing EG further nerfed, as the heal is actually valueable in e.g. Battlegrounds or something. I haven't defended it at all. It really saves the bum sometimes. But from a raid perspective, I can't see the value compared to other monster sets. The counterplay is.. Proc it and then instantly engage on them again. EG usually procs when the raid tries to run somewhere, or to relocate somewhere. Then you know it's off cooldown, and then you capitalise on tha.t Although I agree, EG *is* a lifesaver when it's up. But then again - you shouldn't be so low / out of position that you need an EG-proc in the first place. Unless.. Well, I can think of 1 situation where it can be nice. If you drop off an inner keep and want a quick heal..(But then again, pop a heal ult and it does the job better -cough-).

Thogard wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Or earthgore pops and you don’t kill any of them.

And EG has a really long CD. I can only speak from my own experiences, but EG is pretty meh compared to a whole lot of other sets you can run. But for some reason, EG recieves all the hatred.

And @Thogard Let me ask you - do your small-scale group, expect to kill a fully optimised raid, where everyone has one specific role to fill, and they're more than you? I'm sorry, but that seems unlikely. I can, again, only speak for myself and my own experiences with ZS: But we'll not zerg down those 4 innocent small-scalers on a resource. And frankly, a lot of the raid-players in ZS are also frequent small-scalers, so expecting to kill them because they're "just pugs alone" is a stretch.

And the moment a small-scale group meets an enemy group with more people - with above-potato-level players, it's hard to win the fight. (There were a couple of threads earlier on the forums that whined about not being able to kill non-potatoes 3v6/2v9) or so. I don't remember anyway). Small-scaling got way harder, as people got tankier and they'll usually venture in larger groups at some point.

But I invite, whoever's got any questions or concerns or want ideas on how to kill a raid to reach out to me. And I'll happily join voice comms some time and explain it from my PoV - and provide ideas on how to efficiently kill'm.

And if you find it hard to outrun a raid.. don't run AWAY from them. That's the dumbest thing you'll do. Because you'll just be stuck in their aoe longer. If you wanna avoid most of a group's damage - dodge-roll through the group. Then you get behind them and away from storms/detos/aoes. Gives you time to prepare for when they (usually) come running back as well.

And since storms goes through walls/floors, it's honestly not wise to LOS around tiny pillars either. Just run through them. Then you avoid most of their damage. But most people prefers to stand idle in front and wait to be ran over.

In 95% of the situations, you can predict where the raid is gonna push/run to. Avoid that spot(you can do that being slow af, since it's so projected) and you'll neverdie to a ball-group again.

I have no issues with not being able to kill a larger organized raid as long as the reason behind it is justified. If I can’t kill them because their magplars are able to predict my DBoS dumps and have remembrance going, or if I can’t kill them because their players are tap blocking the dumps, or if I can’t kill them because they’ve got all our damage fully debugged, etc... I’m ok with it.

But none of the large group healers play at that level, not on PC NA at least. You only see that level of skillful play in the small scale community.

What I’m not ok with is:
1. Can’t kill them because the larger, Magicka based groups are faster than smaller, Stam groups due to a speed pot nerf / balance decision that will specifically target us
2. We kill a few but they rez up with zero consequence for having been killed. Through repeated rezzing, eventually someone on my team lags and fails to properly kite, (or what happened last time was our healer ran out of speed pots lol). One tiny mistake from us means we wipe.
3. Their healer is afk but wearing earthgore. Four+ of them. GG

And you can't kill them because they(good healers, that is) proactively casts healing springs in front of the raid, instead of on the raid, so there's always some HoT to take the Dawnbreaker-hit. And remembrance is trash - it's stationary. Even small-scalers are running healing springs(at least or so i've seen). They just put a few down before they choose to do something, to proactively heal. That's not any different from how raids play, except they do it in a much larger scale. What I am also not okay with, is you thinking that running in a raid means we turn out brains off and just follows a crown and spams ne button. Which sure as [snip] ain't the case.

I can only speak from my own experiences again.. But i can tell you that if ZS has a bad raid(and we do) it's only ALWAYS because we're braindead and/or unfocused. It's that simple, really. Being braindead is the certain death in a fast-paced raid like that. Every single healing spring makes you lose rapid maneuver, capitalise on that and you'll see how a raid will die.


And I can promise you one thing, mass-ressing is equally annoying for the ball-group. When we've killed 30 out of the 50 people, and we pull out for 3s to get an overview of the battlefield / get resources or pot off cd.. They're all ressed already. So the ressing is equally annoying for a ball-group, and it's beena while ago, but I've been advocating for a change to Soul Gems. Or ressing in general. You can't be ressed more than every 1 minute or so. Or even 30s cooldown will go a really long way. It's never ending the fight for the ball-group, either. So that's not just you, mate

I'll say it again. Earthgore is overrated in a raid.

As long as earthgore comes off of cooldown faster than ults do, and your raid is outnumbering the opponents, it won’t be able to wipe the ball group because we won’t be able to hurt them after we ult dump and they begin rezzing their dead.

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

When my small scale group hits a ball group we have to be very tactical about it. Usually we can bait a few out and kill them, or run in, dump, and then kite away before they have time to react. In general, they’re slow and the individual players lack the skill or awareness to react quickly to ult dumps.


The normal reason is that killing a few of them has 0 consequence to their group.

4 Inev. Detoes, and large mediocre ball groups die like flies. One Stamsorc for rapids, and here you go.

Or earthgore pops and you don’t kill any of them.

And EG has a really long CD. I can only speak from my own experiences, but EG is pretty meh compared to a whole lot of other sets you can run. But for some reason, EG recieves all the hatred.

And @Thogard Let me ask you - do your small-scale group, expect to kill a fully optimised raid, where everyone has one specific role to fill, and they're more than you? I'm sorry, but that seems unlikely. I can, again, only speak for myself and my own experiences with ZS: But we'll not zerg down those 4 innocent small-scalers on a resource. And frankly, a lot of the raid-players in ZS are also frequent small-scalers, so expecting to kill them because they're "just pugs alone" is a stretch.

And the moment a small-scale group meets an enemy group with more people - with above-potato-level players, it's hard to win the fight. (There were a couple of threads earlier on the forums that whined about not being able to kill non-potatoes 3v6/2v9) or so. I don't remember anyway). Small-scaling got way harder, as people got tankier and they'll usually venture in larger groups at some point.

But I invite, whoever's got any questions or concerns or want ideas on how to kill a raid to reach out to me. And I'll happily join voice comms some time and explain it from my PoV - and provide ideas on how to efficiently kill'm.

And if you find it hard to outrun a raid.. don't run AWAY from them. That's the dumbest thing you'll do. Because you'll just be stuck in their aoe longer. If you wanna avoid most of a group's damage - dodge-roll through the group. Then you get behind them and away from storms/detos/aoes. Gives you time to prepare for when they (usually) come running back as well.

And since storms goes through walls/floors, it's honestly not wise to LOS around tiny pillars either. Just run through them. Then you avoid most of their damage. But most people prefers to stand idle in front and wait to be ran over.

In 95% of the situations, you can predict where the raid is gonna push/run to. Avoid that spot(you can do that being slow af, since it's so projected) and you'll neverdie to a ball-group again.

I have no issues with not being able to kill a larger organized raid as long as the reason behind it is justified. If I can’t kill them because their magplars are able to predict my DBoS dumps and have remembrance going, or if I can’t kill them because their players are tap blocking the dumps, or if I can’t kill them because they’ve got all our damage fully debugged, etc... I’m ok with it.

But none of the large group healers play at that level, not on PC NA at least. You only see that level of skillful play in the small scale community.

What I’m not ok with is:
1. Can’t kill them because the larger, Magicka based groups are faster than smaller, Stam groups due to a speed pot nerf / balance decision that will specifically target us
2. We kill a few but they rez up with zero consequence for having been killed. Through repeated rezzing, eventually someone on my team lags and fails to properly kite, (or what happened last time was our healer ran out of speed pots lol). One tiny mistake from us means we wipe.
3. Their healer is afk but wearing earthgore. Four+ of them. GG

And you can't kill them because they(good healers, that is) proactively casts healing springs in front of the raid, instead of on the raid, so there's always some HoT to take the Dawnbreaker-hit. And remembrance is trash - it's stationary. Even small-scalers are running healing springs(at least or so i've seen). They just put a few down before they choose to do something, to proactively heal. That's not any different from how raids play, except they do it in a much larger scale. What I am also not okay with, is you thinking that running in a raid means we turn out brains off and just follows a crown and spams ne button. Which sure as [snip] ain't the case.

I can only speak from my own experiences again.. But i can tell you that if ZS has a bad raid(and we do) it's only ALWAYS because we're braindead and/or unfocused. It's that simple, really. Being braindead is the certain death in a fast-paced raid like that. Every single healing spring makes you lose rapid maneuver, capitalise on that and you'll see how a raid will die.


And I can promise you one thing, mass-ressing is equally annoying for the ball-group. When we've killed 30 out of the 50 people, and we pull out for 3s to get an overview of the battlefield / get resources or pot off cd.. They're all ressed already. So the ressing is equally annoying for a ball-group, and it's beena while ago, but I've been advocating for a change to Soul Gems. Or ressing in general. You can't be ressed more than every 1 minute or so. Or even 30s cooldown will go a really long way. It's never ending the fight for the ball-group, either. So that's not just you, mate

I'll say it again. Earthgore is overrated in a raid.

Ive been assuming certain parallels between NA and EU that might not be valid.

Can you post a link to a vid of your guild in action, with the comms audible?

Of course there's some parallells probably. But in ZS we change the builds/group setup quite often, depending on what we most likely are gonna face. There's always people being like "yo, I wanna try this in raid". And it's just whatever, do it.

Look up "Morostyle Gaming" on YouTube. He's usually the one posting our videos. But I have one unlisted, that's just raw material straight out of a top-floor fight. No edits, no effects. If I can find it, I'll send it to you.

But as Varanis pointed out... The better raids are also those that can adapt well to any changes that's made. The not-so-experienced raids(there's quite a few on EU recently, actually, which is good!) are gonna struggle more. And given how many people, in total, that's involved in raiding: I don't think it's fair to nerf their tools to the ground, just because it saves the better group, the times they're slightly out of position.

katorga

WhipSmartMcoy wrote: »

How exactly do you nerf a ball group?

Agree. I fully expect them to ruin rapids. Mist form will probably get some form of nerf for example being the primary beneficiary of the shield, dodge, FM, and speed nerfs. Might as well nip those "Mist form is OP" calls in the bud, lol.

I fully expect the rapids nerf to have no impact on ball groups. The evasion changes likewise massively empower ball groups...25% reduction is meaningless with 20 people spamming steel tornado/ults, but it is a big defense from a small group spamming 5 ults.