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50% of max health rather than 40%

  • joaaocaampos
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    Cronopoly wrote: »
    I agree! As far as I know, 100 points in Bastion = 25%. That is, +25% of your character's maximum health.

    So... Sorcerer using Hardened Ward morph and 100 points in Bastion = 85% of your character's maximum health. If Health is 20k, shield will be 17k!

    That's what many are waiting to see, Where, if, and how Bastion will be applied or not.

    I don't think it will be relevant in PVP as Time to Kill for Stamina toons seems pretty quick against any non double or triple stacked shield Light Armor toon "streamers". With so many Stam toons running around with 4-5K Weapon damage...The rest of us Majority that don't Macro/anim cancel our shields will be fodder moreso than today lol. That is, for about an hour or so, then it's over. Bye PVP in LA.

    Bastion and Hardened Ward/Dampen Magic morphs!

    The only way is to increase the cap of maximum Health.
  • RouDeR
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    Heavy Armor, Mag Warden will be the new PvP beast ^^ , 50k magicka with 27-30k health with cap resists :DD
  • Trancestor
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    If they made it 60% of max HP i think that would be fair, in PVP it will only hurt Magsorcs since they're the only class that can actually get such a high shield that goes way above 60%, other shield users like Magblades and Magdens will be relatively unhurt because they can't get more than that anyway by only using Annulment, if Magdens and Magblades can manage with only one shield then Magsorcs will also be able to especially when they have such a good survivability skill called streak/bolt escape.
    In PVE i also think it would be fine together with shields now having resistances, it would obviously be a nerf but that will help bridge the gap between magicka and stamina, where it's way easier to survive as a magicka class currently, also it could make warden healers even more viable if they used their expansive frost cloak skill, major ward/resolve for everyone in the group.
  • Biro123
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    Trancestor wrote: »
    If they made it 60% of max HP i think that would be fair, in PVP it will only hurt Magsorcs since they're the only class that can actually get such a high shield that goes way above 60%, other shield users like Magblades and Magdens will be relatively unhurt because they can't get more than that anyway by only using Annulment, if Magdens and Magblades can manage with only one shield then Magsorcs will also be able to especially when they have such a good survivability skill called streak/bolt escape.
    In PVE i also think it would be fine together with shields now having resistances, it would obviously be a nerf but that will help bridge the gap between magicka and stamina, where it's way easier to survive as a magicka class currently, also it could make warden healers even more viable if they used their expansive frost cloak skill, major ward/resolve for everyone in the group.

    I don't think it matters much for PVP - once you account for the crit damage, you'll probably be struggling to hit the cap anyway.
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
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  • Cronopoly
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    Is there anyone still holding out for some light at the end of the tunnel for Light Armor play? Dusted off my 5/2 Heavy Armor Mag Warden for magicka PVP play over the next couple days but not really excited about it.

    Oddly enough for some reason I'm getting flashbacks to when SOE DELETED the Creature Handler class from SWG. So to put things in perspective these Light Armor playstyle Nerfs are not the worst Nerf in MMO history or even close...still sucks as the "Fix" is not optimal for the Strength of Stamina Play we see today.

    Overall I'll be damned if I'm going to invest in Re-Gearing/Golding out new items for adjustments etc on any Light Armor class when I don't see any "Hope" of surviving past 1 second in PVP. All I see is a Defensive Shield getting popped like a laughable veneer layer and being free AP.

    I would have tried to change my Sorc name to some variant of "Free AP", but his name is Palpitene so I cannot touch it obviously B) Palpitene the Master Crafter Banker Mule to be...
  • Dreyloch
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    I agree, 50% would be a lot better and very close to my shield size on the live server. My current build has 25K health, 41K magicka and a 12K Hardened Ward.

    Im going to agree with this also. Personally, I only use hardened ward in PvP. Still don't know what the calculations are with crit and resistances from light armor, so it's still a decent nerf regardless of w/e strength they decide to make it =/
    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • Nicko_Lps
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    40 or 50 magsorc in light armor will be a 3 sec job for any well played class with a solid build, i guess thats what forum warriors are after.
  • Malamar1229
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    Cut shield strength in half across the board, then change shields to not be impacted by battle spirit, and cut in half the magcika restored by shimmering and harness.

    And we've just addressed the pve issue with the shields without destroying them in PvP
  • TheYKcid
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    Bloodspawn is actually fantastic on Sorc even on live. It will be even more relevant next patch, and I will continue to use mine.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Cronopoly
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    dX_X2y.gif
  • Malamar1229
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    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    How about using your brain and make maths ?

    dtllmi3gv0fm.png

    This kind of buid have tankier shields than on live.

    Magsorc with bloodspawn?

    Ok you dont deserve another answer from me. Have fun while ill keep watching and have my own fun with "how YOU use your brain and make maths" ;)

    You realize top tier sorcs have been using bloodspawn for a while now? Might be hard to note that from inside a zerg.
  • Izaki
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    To be fair... Most Sorcs I've seen in PvP (excluding the pet build + imperial physique ones @Dracane lol) have about 22-23k health. 40% of that is about 9k. Most shield tooltips are actually lower than that on non-super-high-magicka stacking builds. So for those builds, running Hardened Ward or Dampen Magicka is actually very beneficial, since they can get to that 40% threshold without stacking shields, which means that they get a free slot on the bar (and let's face it Sorc bar space is a *** without Overload). Also, its worth mentioning that the higher your health, the higher potential shields you can have, so back to the Necro + Imperial Physique build: you will still get much stronger shields since you'd have a higher health pool.
    I actually think its a pretty good change compared to the cast time, especially in terms of PvE where were shields were just too ridiculous.

    @Izaki
    Yes, but you are a fool and badly informed :) The 40% limit only applies per shield. So stacking shields is still the best and only way.

    Shields are now muuuch weaker on all ends and stacking will become even more important. Nothing changes, except that everything is worse than before. It could all be so easy, if they would just make shields unstackable, but they refuse to for some reason that I will never understand.

    And this is the pvp side. Let's not even imagine pve.....

    First up, don't call me a fool just because I'm "badly informed in a video game", it's quite funny actually. If this game means that much to you, well, I'm sorry for my ignorance :lol: . I didn't know that the 40% limit was per shield. Is it just that hard to say that without pathetically trying to get at me on a video game forum? And since it is 40% per shield, then I don't even see what all the crying is about since in most builds, shields will be around 40% of a typical open world Sorc's max health. 80% of your Max health in shields and on top of that you have Healing Ward. Sure it's a nerf to Sorcs, since Hardened Ward was giving you an extra 3k shields in PvP (if you had 22k health), but its not nearly as huge of a nerf as a 1 second cast time. I also never said that shield stacking was a bad thing or that I didn't prefer the shield mechanics as they were on the live server, but whatever.
    Second, "making shields unstackable". I guess, say goodbye to Healing Ward stacking with either Annulement or Hardnened Ward. I'd bet that all the Sorcs would cry way more about that than about the cast time. Doubt that it solves anything at all. Unless in your eyes Healing Ward should be something entirely different and should stack with all the other shields in the game. So your solution is even more of a nerf to your beloved class I guess. If Healing Ward was unstackable with other shields in PvE, it would be quite problematic for everyone: the Magicka builds with Harness Magicka and the Tanks with Igneous Shield/Hardened Armor. Not to mention the passive shields you get from the CP passives or the Psijic Order skill line. So yeah. Not really a solution after all, is it?
    Thirdly. Umm... Have you done much leaderboard worthhy PvE lately? From your last sentence, I'd dare to say that you haven't. In most hard mode trials shields are barely needed except as "Oh ***" buttons. Well guess what? 40% of your max health (which is 18k without Ebon) is more than enough as an emergency button. Plus, Stamina builds are doing fine without shields (and without Deadly Cloak) on all but 5 bosses in the entire game (that's including vAS+2 and vCR+3), so why would magicka builds suddenly suffer so much from the shield changes considering the fact that they still get an extra 7.2K health which is also affected by their resistances? They are ranged builds which automatically means that it is easier to avoid dangerous mechanics while still dealing damage, they have more self healing and more bar space for resistance buffs, they also have more health than Stamina DDs due to the Undaunted Passives and they will be getting 25% AoE damage reduction next patch on top of that.
    Plus, in PvE the content was never designed with shields in mind. Shields have just become a way of surviving one-shot mechanics which are all avoidable in the first place through other means, namely: avoiding them by stepping out of the AoE, blocking/dodging or doing the actual mechanic properly. One shot mechanics in ESO are a way of punishing a player's mistake. So a nerf to shields is not that bad for PvE DDs in terms of overall balance: we're talking about the fact that Stamina builds are complete jokes compared to Magicka ones in vAS+2 and vCR+3, in terms of both DPS and survivability (which isn't only because of shields but also because of other things).

    And lastly, my post wasn't even directed at you, I just felt that you were one of the better pet Sorcs (while inside the Imperial City) who was Pets and the Imperial Physique set to their full potential, so you deserved a mention.

    You are not a fool for being unknowing, but for calling me out to support your agenda. Even though you don't know my build or stats.
    I have 24k health and 26k with pets out. So I don't even prove your agenda. But it matters not, as I will not endure those changes. So the city is safe now.

    I wasn't actually calling you out to support "my agenda" nor my opinion (which is what my post was for the most part anyway), like I said: I just felt that you were one of the better pet Sorcs who was using Pets and the Imperial Physique set to their full potential. I don't know your build but I know you use both of those things and those were the things that I've mentioned in the brackets in my initial post.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Juhasow
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    Sevn wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Exodium wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Exodium wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Not 50%, not 60%. Leave them as they are for Trinimac's sake.
    Making them critable is enough. All those evil attempts to make this game no fun anymore, I am tired of this.

    I really really would like to say something in particular. But that would probably be an assault on someone. So I shall not.

    No. Crit is only a pvp change but the issue is clearly with pve. Why is it that the majority of players who finish vma for the first time do it on magicka builds? Because shields are too beginner friendly, compensate for poor game play and basically cover up mistakes, as well as allowing you to disregard mechanics.

    I'm sure their data shows that this is the same with trials with most people being magicka for the reasons above.

    Shields need to be nerfed. Simple.

    @Exordium You do realize stam builds can do vMA with light attack spam without abilities on bars ?

    Anyone can do vMA with light attack spams with a knowledge of the mechanics...One player did it with just a broom equipped.

    And funny you say that, considering the famous 'Easy vma 1-bar only build' is a magicka sorc build that has helped so many people get through it on their first clear.

    In fact, 2 years ago when I tried doing vma on my stamsorc I was struggling with the last stage. After 30-40 attempts, I figured I'd respect him to magicka to see if thatd work. I beat it on my 3rd attempt without much of a knowledge on how to play a magika sorc...lmao I was carried by 20k shields as the crematorial guards only got my shield down (they used to one hit my stamsorc).

    Facts are facts. Shields are beginner friendly and they carry as well as mask incompetent gameplay. I even admit I had my own incompetencies masked when I rerolled magicka.

    I havnt seen a run with just a broom what I've seen are people using regular sets+broom and bucket plus all regular abilities. What I am talking about are runs with JUST light attacks through whole arena without use of ANY ability basicly with empty barslots so no passives even apply. Runs like that are possible currently and You dont even have to know arena perfectly 5+ runs will be enought o memorize what to do.

    That famous build You're talking about is kinda outdated these days so it's like saying that DKs are OP in PvP because there was once famous build that You could easily 1v10 with and it helped many ppl to get their first 1vX.

    What masks incompetences is current power creep of sets and CPs. Also seriously You've been struggling 2 years ago with beating vMA on stamsorc when that builds was at its peak ? I think that was time when I 1st time did vMA with 0 CP and it was on stamsorc.

    Shields of course are begginer friendly but there is lot of other begginer friendly things so Your pont here is kinda deluded. Your argument behind certain thing being heavily nerfed is because that things helps weaker players in certain type of content where experienced players are rarely even using it. Doesnt sound like solid argument to me. By that logic I can say that Vigor should be heavily nerfed because it insanely helped weaker players to do vMA on their stam characters , basicly some people wouldnt be able to complete vMA without it so it's extremly begginer friendly.

    Just stop. Vma is a joke using a magsorc. That build is outdated you say? Funny it's still working for me. I had tons of trouble attempting vma on my stam toons, tried it with the one bar magsorc build and it's night and day.

    I'm standing in stupid, blades are constantly ripping me up but I lived because I just shielded up. I'm completely ignoring mechanics and prevailing in vma, all due to how powerful shields make you.

    A one bar magsorc build and it's making vma, the hardest solo content in the game look like a public dungeon at best. Just stop with the narrative that playing a magsorc is hard and shielding isn't a problem. I'm a terrible player, I should not be able to ignore mechanics and be successful in vma.

    I'm rather curious as to the class these folks play who go around complaining about how easy the game is.

    Just stop @Sevn , vMA is a joke no matter what class You're using. Fact that You dont know simplier builds then magsorc doesnt mean there arent any it just means You either rely on YT too much or You're too lazy/unexperienced to come up with something on Your own so You prefer to follow outdated info because noone updated it for You.

    I think You completly missed the point of my narrative. I never said magsorc is hard or shields are not strong in vMA but that's not the only build that can be easy to play and rely on easy defenses there same as vMA is not the best example to give these days as for why certain build is strong and for some of the reasons so many players that calls sorcs easy and cant come up with something constructive as to why chooses to use " easy mode vMA" argument over and over when in fact it's an outdated statement that doesnt bring much to the discussion.

    Also if one bar magsorc is making vMA looking like public dungeon then what builds like the one below make it , a tutorial area ?

    Edited by Juhasow on October 1, 2018 8:48PM
  • Nicko_Lps
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    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    How about using your brain and make maths ?

    dtllmi3gv0fm.png

    This kind of buid have tankier shields than on live.

    Magsorc with bloodspawn?

    Ok you dont deserve another answer from me. Have fun while ill keep watching and have my own fun with "how YOU use your brain and make maths" ;)

    You realize top tier sorcs have been using bloodspawn for a while now? Might be hard to note that from inside a zerg.

    Ive ranked my sorc to 44 without even grouping more than 3-4 times with 1-2 friends they needed a help.

    Get on youtube malcom's channel, check out a top sorc and un-blind yourself

  • pieratsos
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    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    How about using your brain and make maths ?

    dtllmi3gv0fm.png

    This kind of buid have tankier shields than on live.

    Magsorc with bloodspawn?

    Ok you dont deserve another answer from me. Have fun while ill keep watching and have my own fun with "how YOU use your brain and make maths" ;)

    You realize top tier sorcs have been using bloodspawn for a while now? Might be hard to note that from inside a zerg.

    Ive ranked my sorc to 44 without even grouping more than 3-4 times with 1-2 friends they needed a help.

    Get on youtube malcom's channel, check out a top sorc and un-blind yourself

    At which point did malcolm say that bloodspawn isnt good on mag sorc? If anything it seems that you completely miss the point behind malcolm's line of thinking.
  • starkerealm
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    no, i still agree with my beliefs.

    So you still agree that Sorc's should be discarded as a class in trials because other classes will be able to survive the group-wide burst damage which has become integral to it, and sorc cant?

    Seems like you just have a grudge.

    Dude, I've got vet trial clears on a StamSorc. Tell me again how shields are mandatory for clearing.

    Tell me again how shields apply to Stamsorc, who has more then a few defenses in and of itself.

    Basic inference could tell I didn't mean stamsorc there, come on now. Eitherway, it doesn't have health, it doesn't have armor, it doesn't have consistant access to evasion which is now anti AOE, so what can it do to get those oneshots to stop oneshotting now?

    And if the measure is too extreme, explain to me why people would even bring Magsorcs now?

    I also just listed Magsorc in the original draft because I'm in constant tooth pain at the moment, so cut me some slack.

    I'll give you some. But I've been hearing nothing but proclamations of doom from the mag crowd since this was announced.

    All of this comes down to one thing, shields became a panacea. You found a one shot? Don't bother figuring it out, just shield up. You stood in stupid? Just shield up.

    Run a sorc, it's "easy mode."

    It was overperforming. People were getting bored. If you're a good player, you'll adapt. If you were completely dependant on shields and don't want to improve, you won't. Simple as that.

    Then why was magsorcs rotation and play considered one of the hardest to perform?

    I think the pain may be getting to you. We're talking about the Sorcerer, not the Dragon Knight. The MagSorc has one of the easiest rotations to learn and execute, in the game.

    You want to talk about difficult, the Sorc does not face mismatched buff timers like the DK. It does not face the requirement that you hit every weave or take a bath, like the Nightblade. It doesn't face the challenge of simply under-performing like the MagWarden.

    By any, sane measure, the MagSorc is one of the easiest classes to learn to do endgame on. Even without the shields.
    Then why are people posting these insane damage numbers magsorcs do not have an answer to simply because of scaling?

    You might want to try this again. Are you saying that mag sorcs put out insane damage, or you're saying everyone will take absurd damage? Because that's something we already understand the solution to: Don't stand in the red.
    You. Are. Biased.

    I dislike Skyreach babies. Is that, now, a crime?
    And your bias should not lock a class out of veteran trials.

    Because, you don't believe there's a single competent sorc player out there?

    I mean, if this is an appeal to sympathy, as someone who has a lot of Stam PvE experience, saying, "oh no, have mercy on us, we'll be excluded from trials," doesn't carry a lot of weight with me.
    One run of black rose prison was all people like code needed to break this idiotic 'it's overperforming' *** over their knee.

    Tell me again how well the current iteration of shields works in BRP? You've played it on live, right?

    No, wait, you haven't.

    You wouldn't be able to shield through BRP on live, you can't on PTS. You need to learn placement.
    The center cannot hold...

    Mere anarchy is losed upon the raid community.

    Good. It needs something to shake things up. We were getting complacent.
    ...you ajust this, you must then ajust trial damage. Sorry. But it's true.

    Except, it's not.

    We heard about how the sustain changes would make it impossible to clear vMA, and vMoL. And.. you know what? It didn't.

    We heard cries about how the block changes would wreck tanks... and they didn't.

    We've heard about how this will end all trial running. I'm going to go out on a limb, look at the last four years of balance changes and predict that, "nope. We're going to be fine."
    We've seen the kind of damage trials are puting out with AOE burst, and that should be lowered so that healers -are- necessary to mitigate it if this is the plan. Blackrose prison is a good example of this. Trash mobs are overtuned.

    Well, BRP isn't a trial, so it's not really an example of "Trial Damage."

    Also, it's possible that BRP is overtuned. I mean, there are, legitimately, some bugs in it. But, at the same time, BRP isn't impossible. The skin has been moved off the trifecta achievement so, aside from the things that aren't working right now? I"m fine with scraping my face across that place in its current state. It's actually challenging. You know, like it should be.
    I still remember when Magsorc, shields and all, was subpar DPS for the longest time until the Llambris monster set dropped. It was pure *** burst, and it only shined in PVP.

    And that's why your posting. It's painfully obvious. Your a bitter PVP main and I know it because some of my friends are acting the exact same way. And I'll tell you what I told them: Just because we've all delt with it doesn't make it right.

    You know, across fifteen characters, I have never actually spent enough time in PvP to max out the Assault and Support skill lines? Not once.

    That's not that much time in PvP.

    Hilariously, my highest rank character in PvP is a magsorc.

    But, no, I'm primarily a PvEer. PvP is something I do in small, focused, bursts, when I want something different.

    Also, hilariously, PvP is getting hit harder by this. WAY harder, because shields can now be critted. That's massive. On offense? That's nice for me in there. On defense? It would be a nightmare... if I actually used shields other than Barrier in PvP.
    Sorc needs those shields.

    They really don't. I've gotten somewhere around 800 kills in BGs without slotting Hardened Ward or Harness on my Sorc.
    Raise the cap to 60%. Edit bastion to give insane resistances to shields. It wont be a problem in BG's and non CP campaigns. So PVP will remain untouched.

    This is the part you don't get. I started out on Stam. I learned to play the game without a crutch. So now, when ZOS is saying, "yeah, that was too much," I'm sitting here going, "yeah, I know."

    For PvE, situational awareness and positioning are the kings and queens of survival. Ward and Harness broke that. They took over, usurped the throne and defiled the drapes.
    TLDR: Something needs to give. Either shields need to get signifigant buffs or the content damage output needs to be edited regularly with player defenses in mind. And we both know ZOS wont do the latter.

    I can grant you that this will be painful, but you'll be a better player for it.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Aedaryl wrote: »
    How about using your brain and make maths ?

    dtllmi3gv0fm.png

    This kind of buid have tankier shields than on live.

    Magsorc with bloodspawn?

    Ok you dont deserve another answer from me. Have fun while ill keep watching and have my own fun with "how YOU use your brain and make maths" ;)

    If you refuse to try and doing the maths, then stop crying there.

    Ur old playstyle isn't there, instead of complaining, try to see if the news options are good enough.

    They are.

    Because that'll work for PVE.
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    no, i still agree with my beliefs.

    So you still agree that Sorc's should be discarded as a class in trials because other classes will be able to survive the group-wide burst damage which has become integral to it, and sorc cant?

    Seems like you just have a grudge.

    Dude, I've got vet trial clears on a StamSorc. Tell me again how shields are mandatory for clearing.

    Tell me again how shields apply to Stamsorc, who has more then a few defenses in and of itself.

    Basic inference could tell I didn't mean stamsorc there, come on now. Eitherway, it doesn't have health, it doesn't have armor, it doesn't have consistant access to evasion which is now anti AOE, so what can it do to get those oneshots to stop oneshotting now?

    And if the measure is too extreme, explain to me why people would even bring Magsorcs now?

    I also just listed Magsorc in the original draft because I'm in constant tooth pain at the moment, so cut me some slack.

    I'll give you some. But I've been hearing nothing but proclamations of doom from the mag crowd since this was announced.

    All of this comes down to one thing, shields became a panacea. You found a one shot? Don't bother figuring it out, just shield up. You stood in stupid? Just shield up.

    Run a sorc, it's "easy mode."

    It was overperforming. People were getting bored. If you're a good player, you'll adapt. If you were completely dependant on shields and don't want to improve, you won't. Simple as that.

    Then why was magsorcs rotation and play considered one of the hardest to perform?

    I think the pain may be getting to you. We're talking about the Sorcerer, not the Dragon Knight. The MagSorc has one of the easiest rotations to learn and execute, in the game.

    You want to talk about difficult, the Sorc does not face mismatched buff timers like the DK. It does not face the requirement that you hit every weave or take a bath, like the Nightblade. It doesn't face the challenge of simply under-performing like the MagWarden.

    By any, sane measure, the MagSorc is one of the easiest classes to learn to do endgame on. Even without the shields.
    Then why are people posting these insane damage numbers magsorcs do not have an answer to simply because of scaling?

    You might want to try this again. Are you saying that mag sorcs put out insane damage, or you're saying everyone will take absurd damage? Because that's something we already understand the solution to: Don't stand in the red.
    You. Are. Biased.

    I dislike Skyreach babies. Is that, now, a crime?
    And your bias should not lock a class out of veteran trials.

    Because, you don't believe there's a single competent sorc player out there?

    I mean, if this is an appeal to sympathy, as someone who has a lot of Stam PvE experience, saying, "oh no, have mercy on us, we'll be excluded from trials," doesn't carry a lot of weight with me.
    One run of black rose prison was all people like code needed to break this idiotic 'it's overperforming' *** over their knee.

    Tell me again how well the current iteration of shields works in BRP? You've played it on live, right?

    No, wait, you haven't.

    You wouldn't be able to shield through BRP on live, you can't on PTS. You need to learn placement.
    The center cannot hold...

    Mere anarchy is losed upon the raid community.

    Good. It needs something to shake things up. We were getting complacent.
    ...you ajust this, you must then ajust trial damage. Sorry. But it's true.

    Except, it's not.

    We heard about how the sustain changes would make it impossible to clear vMA, and vMoL. And.. you know what? It didn't.

    We heard cries about how the block changes would wreck tanks... and they didn't.

    We've heard about how this will end all trial running. I'm going to go out on a limb, look at the last four years of balance changes and predict that, "nope. We're going to be fine."
    We've seen the kind of damage trials are puting out with AOE burst, and that should be lowered so that healers -are- necessary to mitigate it if this is the plan. Blackrose prison is a good example of this. Trash mobs are overtuned.

    Well, BRP isn't a trial, so it's not really an example of "Trial Damage."

    Also, it's possible that BRP is overtuned. I mean, there are, legitimately, some bugs in it. But, at the same time, BRP isn't impossible. The skin has been moved off the trifecta achievement so, aside from the things that aren't working right now? I"m fine with scraping my face across that place in its current state. It's actually challenging. You know, like it should be.
    I still remember when Magsorc, shields and all, was subpar DPS for the longest time until the Llambris monster set dropped. It was pure *** burst, and it only shined in PVP.

    And that's why your posting. It's painfully obvious. Your a bitter PVP main and I know it because some of my friends are acting the exact same way. And I'll tell you what I told them: Just because we've all delt with it doesn't make it right.

    You know, across fifteen characters, I have never actually spent enough time in PvP to max out the Assault and Support skill lines? Not once.

    That's not that much time in PvP.

    Hilariously, my highest rank character in PvP is a magsorc.

    But, no, I'm primarily a PvEer. PvP is something I do in small, focused, bursts, when I want something different.

    Also, hilariously, PvP is getting hit harder by this. WAY harder, because shields can now be critted. That's massive. On offense? That's nice for me in there. On defense? It would be a nightmare... if I actually used shields other than Barrier in PvP.
    Sorc needs those shields.

    They really don't. I've gotten somewhere around 800 kills in BGs without slotting Hardened Ward or Harness on my Sorc.
    Raise the cap to 60%. Edit bastion to give insane resistances to shields. It wont be a problem in BG's and non CP campaigns. So PVP will remain untouched.

    This is the part you don't get. I started out on Stam. I learned to play the game without a crutch. So now, when ZOS is saying, "yeah, that was too much," I'm sitting here going, "yeah, I know."

    For PvE, situational awareness and positioning are the kings and queens of survival. Ward and Harness broke that. They took over, usurped the throne and defiled the drapes.
    TLDR: Something needs to give. Either shields need to get signifigant buffs or the content damage output needs to be edited regularly with player defenses in mind. And we both know ZOS wont do the latter.

    I can grant you that this will be painful, but you'll be a better player for it.



    I dont play Sorc. And given it is now an effectively worse class in every way compared to Magblade, I never will. I know at least three players who refuse to go forward with the changes, and I dont blame them. And I've resolved to leave once my build is inevitibly nerfed.

    But you dont need to play a godamn class for 50 years to understand how it works, and sorcs have no other inherent defenses outside of slotting resto staff, which they had to do for more then a few years. I remember. I also remember a time when they had very little sustained damage, something you refuse to acknowledge. I remember when Illambris made sorcs fun to play in PVE again and actually *** useful.

    Most of this post is predicated on the assumption that I am both a sorc and extrordinarily bad. The fact this is still an excuse for poor game design, is laughable. I am not a sorc main. But I am tired of ZOS's continual inability to exersize restraint and continual purging of entire gameplay concepts, just because they are harder to balance. If you cannot understand that, you are an ideologue, arguing with what you think is going on, rather then the actual point.

    I remain against the change. If you intend to remove a classes entire effective defense, you need to give it massive offense to compensate. Or, here's a thought: Reverse the change, leave shields crittable in the only context it would cause someone pain (And no, elitism isn't a reasonable postulate to nerf something) so that PVP can be satisfied, or massively reduce the burst damage in trials and other veteran content.

    We still play a game where Kinlord Rilis in Banished Cells 1 has an attack with virtually no telegraph that is a oneshot for almost everyone but the tank. We still play a game with multiple AOE mechanics that are simple burst and while positioning can mitigate that, it cant wholey solve it. And you continue to think that the onus is on us, to deal with every single nerf that ever happens?

    Furthermore, do you think I want to improve if I am not having fun? And being wildly nerfed every patch as sorcs have, and which will eventually move to other classes until the combat lead is changed, makes me inclined to stick around? Stockholm syndrome is classified as a mental illness for a reason. Fanatical devotion is used as a highlight of the grimness of the world in settings like 40K but for this fanbase it seems outright required.

    I repeat: You are an ideologue. You continue to hold to your rigid narrative and you didn't reason yourself into that position. So you cannot reason yourself out. Give me a reason to 'adapt' besides itself and the fact that you are telling me to. And remember: I dont get a hit of dopamine from running darksouls 3 with a broken sword. Go ahed. I'll wait. I'll wait for a single reason to put in the work, and the time, only to have that work demolished next patch, aside from the ESO community equivilent of "For the emperor".

    TLDR: This is a game where Rilis on BC1 still throws out an attack that oneshots everyone but the tank, where there remain raid-wide damage spikes in AOE's, and where the new upcoming content continues the trend of high damage spikes. The entire reason players were given these defenses was because the load was so high it needed DPS players to tend to their own survival on top of the healer, and the content was designed for it. You continue to ignore this. It cannot be ignored. We now have a point where in order to make the most of the two defenses sorcs have (Crit surge and ward) they must build one way, and that one way makes them useless in PVE. This is not good design. Attempting to band-aid it with 'adapt or leave scrib' and preaching the glorious word of the church of adaption and how good I'll feel once I do, doesn't change that.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 3, 2018 7:51AM
  • ZOS_JesC
    ZOS_JesC
    admin
    Greetings, we've recently removed several baiting comments. This is a reminder to keep comments on topic and constructive. This means no naming and shaming other members, or using insults to argue your point.
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    Staff Post
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    no, i still agree with my beliefs.

    So you still agree that Sorc's should be discarded as a class in trials because other classes will be able to survive the group-wide burst damage which has become integral to it, and sorc cant?

    Seems like you just have a grudge.

    Dude, I've got vet trial clears on a StamSorc. Tell me again how shields are mandatory for clearing.

    Tell me again how shields apply to Stamsorc, who has more then a few defenses in and of itself.

    Basic inference could tell I didn't mean stamsorc there, come on now. Eitherway, it doesn't have health, it doesn't have armor, it doesn't have consistant access to evasion which is now anti AOE, so what can it do to get those oneshots to stop oneshotting now?

    And if the measure is too extreme, explain to me why people would even bring Magsorcs now?

    I also just listed Magsorc in the original draft because I'm in constant tooth pain at the moment, so cut me some slack.

    I'll give you some. But I've been hearing nothing but proclamations of doom from the mag crowd since this was announced.

    All of this comes down to one thing, shields became a panacea. You found a one shot? Don't bother figuring it out, just shield up. You stood in stupid? Just shield up.

    Run a sorc, it's "easy mode."

    It was overperforming. People were getting bored. If you're a good player, you'll adapt. If you were completely dependant on shields and don't want to improve, you won't. Simple as that.

    Then why was magsorcs rotation and play considered one of the hardest to perform?

    I think the pain may be getting to you. We're talking about the Sorcerer, not the Dragon Knight. The MagSorc has one of the easiest rotations to learn and execute, in the game.

    You want to talk about difficult, the Sorc does not face mismatched buff timers like the DK. It does not face the requirement that you hit every weave or take a bath, like the Nightblade. It doesn't face the challenge of simply under-performing like the MagWarden.

    By any, sane measure, the MagSorc is one of the easiest classes to learn to do endgame on. Even without the shields.
    Then why are people posting these insane damage numbers magsorcs do not have an answer to simply because of scaling?

    You might want to try this again. Are you saying that mag sorcs put out insane damage, or you're saying everyone will take absurd damage? Because that's something we already understand the solution to: Don't stand in the red.
    You. Are. Biased.

    I dislike Skyreach babies. Is that, now, a crime?
    And your bias should not lock a class out of veteran trials.

    Because, you don't believe there's a single competent sorc player out there?

    I mean, if this is an appeal to sympathy, as someone who has a lot of Stam PvE experience, saying, "oh no, have mercy on us, we'll be excluded from trials," doesn't carry a lot of weight with me.
    One run of black rose prison was all people like code needed to break this idiotic 'it's overperforming' *** over their knee.

    Tell me again how well the current iteration of shields works in BRP? You've played it on live, right?

    No, wait, you haven't.

    You wouldn't be able to shield through BRP on live, you can't on PTS. You need to learn placement.
    The center cannot hold...

    Mere anarchy is losed upon the raid community.

    Good. It needs something to shake things up. We were getting complacent.
    ...you ajust this, you must then ajust trial damage. Sorry. But it's true.

    Except, it's not.

    We heard about how the sustain changes would make it impossible to clear vMA, and vMoL. And.. you know what? It didn't.

    We heard cries about how the block changes would wreck tanks... and they didn't.

    We've heard about how this will end all trial running. I'm going to go out on a limb, look at the last four years of balance changes and predict that, "nope. We're going to be fine."
    We've seen the kind of damage trials are puting out with AOE burst, and that should be lowered so that healers -are- necessary to mitigate it if this is the plan. Blackrose prison is a good example of this. Trash mobs are overtuned.

    Well, BRP isn't a trial, so it's not really an example of "Trial Damage."

    Also, it's possible that BRP is overtuned. I mean, there are, legitimately, some bugs in it. But, at the same time, BRP isn't impossible. The skin has been moved off the trifecta achievement so, aside from the things that aren't working right now? I"m fine with scraping my face across that place in its current state. It's actually challenging. You know, like it should be.
    I still remember when Magsorc, shields and all, was subpar DPS for the longest time until the Llambris monster set dropped. It was pure *** burst, and it only shined in PVP.

    And that's why your posting. It's painfully obvious. Your a bitter PVP main and I know it because some of my friends are acting the exact same way. And I'll tell you what I told them: Just because we've all delt with it doesn't make it right.

    You know, across fifteen characters, I have never actually spent enough time in PvP to max out the Assault and Support skill lines? Not once.

    That's not that much time in PvP.

    Hilariously, my highest rank character in PvP is a magsorc.

    But, no, I'm primarily a PvEer. PvP is something I do in small, focused, bursts, when I want something different.

    Also, hilariously, PvP is getting hit harder by this. WAY harder, because shields can now be critted. That's massive. On offense? That's nice for me in there. On defense? It would be a nightmare... if I actually used shields other than Barrier in PvP.
    Sorc needs those shields.

    They really don't. I've gotten somewhere around 800 kills in BGs without slotting Hardened Ward or Harness on my Sorc.
    Raise the cap to 60%. Edit bastion to give insane resistances to shields. It wont be a problem in BG's and non CP campaigns. So PVP will remain untouched.

    This is the part you don't get. I started out on Stam. I learned to play the game without a crutch. So now, when ZOS is saying, "yeah, that was too much," I'm sitting here going, "yeah, I know."

    For PvE, situational awareness and positioning are the kings and queens of survival. Ward and Harness broke that. They took over, usurped the throne and defiled the drapes.
    TLDR: Something needs to give. Either shields need to get signifigant buffs or the content damage output needs to be edited regularly with player defenses in mind. And we both know ZOS wont do the latter.

    I can grant you that this will be painful, but you'll be a better player for it.

    I dont play Sorc.

    Noted. I'll remember that for later.
    And given it is now an effectively worse class in every way compared to Magblade, I never will.

    Well, for one, the rotation is way easier. Mobility is higher. More defense. The ultimates are more visually interesting. And, of course, better AoE and CC than a NB. Way better CC.

    Oh, right, also, they're fun. Something I can't say about Magblades.
    I know at least three players who refuse to go forward with the changes, and I dont blame them.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say, "they're not really in a position to refuse the changes," so they're going to quit, rather than adapt to a mechanics change that ultimately benfits them more than it harms them? Cool. Their choice, I guess.
    And I've resolved to leave once my build is inevitibly nerfed.

    Can I haz ur stuf?

    Or, you know, maybe you should actually test changes before you cry, "nerfs!" Because, there are a lot of changes here, and ironically, even with that cap, shields just got a major PvE buff.
    But you dont need to play a godamn class for 50 years to understand how it works...

    This is entirely true. You can reasonably learn a new class in under a month.
    I dont play Sorc.

    Oh, right.
    ...and sorcs have no other inherent defenses outside of slotting resto staff...

    This is hilariously untrue. Sorcs have far more defenses than you realize. Hardened Ward was a kind of, "one size fits all," solution to any problem, but the class has always had a lot of defensive tools at it's disposal. Many of those were dual use with offensive and defensive options.

    If you wanted to get a feel for them, I'd normally suggest messing around with a sorc tank, but you don't want to do that, so... eh, whatever.
    ...which they had to do for more then a few years.

    Not, completely, true. It was "meta" for awhile. I blame @Deltia and his early efforts to turn every class into a DK, for that. It was never necessary unless you wanted to be a healer.
    I remember. I also remember a time when they had very little sustained damage, something you refuse to acknowledge. I remember when Illambris made sorcs fun to play in PVE again and actually *** useful.

    Just to be clear, we're talking about back before the sustain nerfs where Templars, DKs, and NBs had access to, effectively unlimited resources, and would simply burst for ten minutes straight? Because, yeah, that was a problem too.
    Most of this post is predicated on the assumption that I am both a sorc and extrordinarily bad.

    No, I assumed that you had cause to understand what you were talking about. Knowing now that:
    I dont play Sorc.

    ...it all makes sense.
    The fact this is still an excuse for poor game design, is laughable.

    Given you don't play sorc, I don't think you can really offer a carefully measured argument on the value of these changes, one way or the other.

    You can regurgitate other people's arguments, but you have no ability to really evaluate what you're being told.
    I am not a sorc main. But I am tired of ZOS's continual inability to exersize restraint and continual purging of entire gameplay concepts, just because they are harder to balance.

    Because reducing the damage taken by shields, and then reducing the overall HP of several shields along with that is completely removing this mechanic from the game.

    Right.

    Unless this is a stray complaint about passive dodge chance being removed, in which case, "good." That needed to go.
    If you cannot understand that, you are an ideologue, arguing with what you think is going on, rather then the actual point.

    So, the player who's actually tested and understands the changes is an ideologue; while the one who doesn't play the class, doesn't understand the changes, and is blindly repeating the cries of others is not...

    I do not think that word means what you think it means.
    I remain against the change.

    You don't understand the change.

    You're like one the guy that signs the Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide petition, when it gets passed around.
    If you intend to remove a classes entire effective defense, you need to give it massive offense to compensate. Or, here's a thought: Reverse the change, leave shields crittable in the only context it would cause someone pain (And no, elitism isn't a reasonable postulate to nerf something) so that PVP can be satisfied, or massively reduce the burst damage in trials and other veteran content.

    No.

    Again, you don't play, so I understand. These changes are a fairly substantial buff for shields overall. If the health cap was not added to this, shields would be even more disgusting after this change.
    We still play a game where Kinlord Rilis in Banished Cells 1 has an attack with virtually no telegraph that is a oneshot for almost everyone but the tank.

    That shot only hits for roughly 17k. on HM. Here's a novel idea, put some health in your build, or stop crying about getting one shot.

    Also, there is an animation callout. Also an attack pattern. Run BC1 a few times and you'll learn when he's about to go, and maybe, just maybe, you should block.
    We still play a game with multiple AOE mechanics that are simple burst and while positioning can mitigate that, it cant wholey solve it. And you continue to think that the onus is on us, to deal with every single nerf that ever happens?

    Yes. Because nerfs are like the weather. You're crying about how it's going to rain, then complaining about how because it's going to rain you're going to move someplace like LA... where it still rains, you just don't hear about it where you live.

    Shields have let a lot of players clear vet content without understanding the basic mechanics in play. So, of course that's getting nerfed.
    Furthermore, do you think I want to improve if I am not having fun?

    If your lack of skill is causing it to be unpleasant? Yes.

    I understand, it's easier to sit down and cry about it until someone comes over and offers you a treat, but yeah, if you like the game but you're not having fun, then maybe you might want to improve your play.
    And being wildly nerfed every patch as sorcs have...

    I know, you don't play them. As someone who does play them, and can be honest with themselves... yeah, Sorcs are a bit broken. Especially in PvP. Sorcs are still hilariously lethal in PvP. The Wolfhunter nerfs sting a bit, but they were necessary because the tools a sorc had to kill you were just, "hey, I saw that guy, okay, let me lock them up, prevent them from acting, and immediately kill them."

    Now, I need to kinda work for my kills. From a balance standpoint, it's a vast improvement. The class is still hilariously efficient at kill stealing, and very dangerous in trained hands. Some stuff is still over-performing. It's fun for me, but it's not fun for anyone on the receiving end, and that does need to change, even if it stings.
    ...and which will eventually move to other classes until the combat lead is changed, makes me inclined to stick around?

    Dude, if you're playing against sorcs right now, you're not going to want to stick around. On the PvP front? They're still vicious.
    Stockholm syndrome is classified as a mental illness for a reason. Fanatical devotion is used as a highlight of the grimness of the world in settings like 40K but for this fanbase it seems outright required.

    uRB6KTz.jpg
    I repeat: You are an ideologue.

    That word you are using...
    You continue to hold to your rigid narrative and you didn't reason yourself into that position.

    Yeah... going onto the PTS myself, testing the shields on there, checking with other people who actually know how to play, seeing that they had similar experiences... playing enough endgame content to see overall behavior from other mag focused players... spending years on the sorc to the point where I don't even slot Hardened Ward for PvP...

    Yeah, that's taking someone else's argument as spoonfed.

    But, remember, only you, repeating what the herd is screaming, speaks for yourself.
    So you cannot reason yourself out. Give me a reason to 'adapt' besides itself and the fact that you are telling me to.

    Maybe because you enjoy ESO? Rather than just cheesing it?
    And remember: I dont get a hit of dopamine from running darksouls 3 with a broken sword.

    Neither do I, but I have played DS3. Fun fact, it's not that hard. Probably the easiest Souls game to date in fact.

    Just, you know, use the bonfires so the thing doesn't break.

    Also, keep track of your positioning, because positioning is king in Dark Souls boss fights. It controls where the boss will go, which moves they'll use, and how badly they're about to turn you into paste if you stand there. Kinda like ESO in that respect.

    So, maybe that comparison was more on point than you realized?
    Go ahed. I'll wait. I'll wait for a single reason to put in the work, and the time, only to have that work demolished next patch, aside from the ESO community equivilent of "For the emperor".

    9fqPsI5.jpg


    TLDR: This is a game where Rilis on BC1 still throws out an attack that oneshots everyone but the tank...

    Given that, "one shot," ignores taunts, so he'll pick a nearby player anyway, and that I have no-death clears of both BCs with stam characters... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that attack only turns bad players into paste without warning or explanation. Maybe running 12k health, after food, was a bad build idea?
    ...where there remain raid-wide damage spikes in AOE's, and where the new upcoming content continues the trend of high damage spikes. The entire reason players were given these defenses was because the load was so high it needed DPS players to tend to their own survival on top of the healer, and the content was designed for it. You continue to ignore this. It cannot be ignored.

    I'm not ignoring it. I just remember there is more than one way to stack survivability in this game. You could always... I don't know, put a few points in health.

    I realize this may be a shock, but the world looks very different when you have 15k health before food.
    We now have a point where in order to make the most of the two defenses sorcs have (Crit surge and ward) they must build one way, and that one way makes them useless in PVE.
    I dont play Sorc.

    Right, so... you might not realize this, but sorcs do have some other survival tools. Actually, fun trivia, two of those stack with shields on the PTS to further improve their Hardened Ward in a way that's not possible on live.
    This is not good design. Attempting to band-aid it with 'adapt or leave scrib' and preaching the glorious word of the church of adaption and how good I'll feel once I do, doesn't change that.

    You're literally complaining about nerfs to a class you don't play, and don't understand. I mean, frankly, I don't think adaptation is possible in your case. Just pocket the buffs you're getting and go on with your day, no adaptation needed.

    Though, I do have more 40k memes if you want to chase that rabbit hole. Some of them can even be safely posted on these boards.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Vahrokh
    Vahrokh
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    Mods should delete flame baiting posts like the above, too.

    We are facing the biggest nerf since Morrowind and all we get is someone schooling us about how good we shall be, how incredibly good we were, how we will finally "learn the hardship and torture of ESO like real men have to" and so on.

    1) Do magsorcs win top players duels and "tournaments" more than other classes? No. They are good "potatoes killers" though. The potatoes prove this truth by themselves, every day, on the forums.

    2) Are "kill 20 magsorcs" PvP quests impossible to do? No.

    3) Do magsorcs come top trial or solo DPS? No. By large.

    4) Can magsorcs respec to the best end game tank? No.

    5) Can magsorcs respec to the best end game healer? No.

    I could add more points.

    This is as of today, before the nerfs.

    If someone feels like trolling with their: "someone (not him, of course) clears vMA bare handed" and similar on the PTS forum, the posts should not be allowed. They are just here to further annoy, irritate and rabble rouse vs other players who are already annoyed and demoralized by the nerfs.
    Edited by Vahrokh on October 4, 2018 12:36AM
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    @starkerealm

    Name the defenses.

    You go on and on about how they have more. Name them. Provide examples. Because it's the only point I want clarrification from you on, the rest is just you arguing opinion.

    Because when I look at sorc, I see three abilities.

    Shields, which were their mainstay.

    Crit surge, which was also a mainstay, which healed after crits which is allright.

    Bound armor, which is both a passive to block mitigation and minor armor buffs, and...quite frankly if the dude in robes is at the point where he needs to go bucket-and-a-quarter staff on somebody we've hit rock bottom

    And Lightning Form, which is a armor ability which quite frankly I dont think anyone would ever use. Except, well...tanks.

    The problem is you seem to be under the impression that I am advocating for it not to be nerfed at all. I'm not. I have seen the duels go on for like 20 minutes in Riften, I am aware shields needed to be brought down. What I am advocating, is sensible reform.

    I remain in my position: Raise the cap to 50 or 60% of your health, and have bastion now give you extra resists while using shields. The fact these dont apply to most forms of PVP, battlegrounds included, means that the changes bring Sorcs down to the realm of mortal men and give sorcs their lifeline in PVE content, which is all that I am interested in seeing.

    Hell. If you really want to argue that that is too much, cap the damage resistrance at precisely what lightning form would give you.

    You continue to say I dont understand the change, that I am regurgitating what others have said. I am not. I have specifically looked at the defenses and the situations in PVE that are relevent (Again, PVE only, PVP is irrelevent and should not be balanced for) but it seems to me, that the changes were made to combat a problem that never existed. And where it did exist, was solved when shields became critable.

    And the reason I rail against the changes so much, without a horse in this race? The casuals, you seem to want to strangle. All changes like this do, is lengthen the distance between ceiling and floor, something ZOS was so godamn opposed to a year ago. Making classes harder to play, to appease people like you, who see a man doing an efficient job and plan to make his life harder out of pure spite, and if not spite, then for no reason I can discern.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 4, 2018 2:08AM
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    @starkerealm

    Name the defenses.

    You go on and on about how they have more. Name them. Provide examples. Because it's the only point I want clarrification from you on, the rest is just you arguing opinion.

    Sorc abilities with defensive value? Armor/Aegis, Clanfear, Bolt Escape, Encase, Prison, Ward, Negate, Lightning Form, Surge. And this is just off the top of my head, without actually sitting down and thinking about it.

    Seriously, with this? Just put some points in health.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    @starkerealm

    Name the defenses.

    You go on and on about how they have more. Name them. Provide examples. Because it's the only point I want clarrification from you on, the rest is just you arguing opinion.

    Sorc abilities with defensive value? Armor/Aegis, Clanfear, Bolt Escape, Encase, Prison, Ward, Negate, Lightning Form, Surge. And this is just off the top of my head, without actually sitting down and thinking about it.

    Seriously, with this? Just put some points in health.

    ...Can I get a copy of that spongebob meme? Because I really feel like that meme is applicable here."JuSt pUt pOiNtS iN hEaLtH" Lets go through these in order including the ones I've allready picked apart.

    Armor/Aegis:Block cost mitigation? In a trial? If the sorc has to watashi-wa someone with a quarterstaff you've designed yourself into a corner. Block mitigation isn't going to help a DPS sorc in any way with the sheer volume of damage is that high in trials.

    Clanfear: Because every raid leader in existance didn't tell the sorc to knock it the *** off with the clanfear's enough. They impede the tanks aim, and sometimes pull. No.

    Bolt escape: Movement is DPS lost, and when the tank is almost certainly pulling all of these and in trials like cloudrest the damage is on a tightly packed platform there's no where to bolt escape too.

    Encase: Wont work on bosses, if the tank is a DK they likely will allready have this. I guess.

    Prison: Single target, wont help against swarms of mobs if *** goes wrong, or bosses, or AOE burst. Not even an option.

    Ward: Used to be pretty good and in most situations it'd get eaten as fast as you could friggin' cast it. Hence why the change is so baffling. Also hence why the changes to crit shield could have solved the problem all by itself.

    Negate: Depending on whether or not it actually dispels AOE boss effects could be usefull but then again trials allready have a nightblade requirement just for that damage reduction on that ultimate so it's outclassed.

    Lightniong form: As established, nobody ever uses this on a godamn magbuild because A, DPS loss and B, it requires you to be in wacking range. This is also one of the few classes that while mag, can be forced to enter into that range, and doesn't have massive damage to compensate for it from something like whip or jabs.

    So...yeah, not great examples. Some of these could definately be reworked for a new 'oh ***' button and you could swap out one ability for another depending on the environment, but that'd require them to pick one and rework it. My vote would personablly be for mines. Rework it to an ability where you gain massive, unique damage reduction, for one second. Make the cost reasonable, and suddenly the issue in this context is solved, and the rest can be solved with, as you say, positioning.

    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 4, 2018 2:26AM
  • starkerealm
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    @starkerealm

    Name the defenses.

    You go on and on about how they have more. Name them. Provide examples. Because it's the only point I want clarrification from you on, the rest is just you arguing opinion.

    Sorc abilities with defensive value? Armor/Aegis, Clanfear, Bolt Escape, Encase, Prison, Ward, Negate, Lightning Form, Surge. And this is just off the top of my head, without actually sitting down and thinking about it.

    Seriously, with this? Just put some points in health.

    ...Can I get a copy of that spongebob meme? Because I really feel like that meme is applicable here."JuSt pUt pOiNtS iN hEaLtH" Lets go through these in order including the ones I've allready picked apart.

    Let's start with the part where you don't know the class, nor do you understand it. Which is painfully obvious from the rest of your post. And, just stop there, because you didn't bring up a single salient point.

    If you'd like to discuss how the class works, I'd recommend you try playing it, before telling someone who has extensive experience with it, how to play their class.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    @starkerealm

    Name the defenses.

    You go on and on about how they have more. Name them. Provide examples. Because it's the only point I want clarrification from you on, the rest is just you arguing opinion.

    Sorc abilities with defensive value? Armor/Aegis, Clanfear, Bolt Escape, Encase, Prison, Ward, Negate, Lightning Form, Surge. And this is just off the top of my head, without actually sitting down and thinking about it.

    Seriously, with this? Just put some points in health.

    ...Can I get a copy of that spongebob meme? Because I really feel like that meme is applicable here."JuSt pUt pOiNtS iN hEaLtH" Lets go through these in order including the ones I've allready picked apart.

    Let's start with the part where you don't know the class, nor do you understand it. Which is painfully obvious from the rest of your post. And, just stop there, because you didn't bring up a single salient point.

    If you'd like to discuss how the class works, I'd recommend you try playing it, before telling someone who has extensive experience with it, how to play their class.

    I know trials. And I have seen trial builds. And I can reasonibly infer why builds dont use certain abilities given the environment. Every single point was made from that perspective, and if you are going to argue I dont know what I'm talking about on a class front, certainly. But dont tell me I dont know how trials work, or what defenses could be applicable to that setting.

    This is not a valid arguement, but continue to put your fingers in your ears. If the shield changes are a PVE nerf, not only are they not fit for purpose, but their attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist. And you continue to shout the same 'adapt or leave' garbage that absolves games of their design faults, and leads to the mass exodus, eventually death, of those games.

    And when we eventually reach that point, and the people want someone to hang, I'll mention your name.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 4, 2018 2:39AM
  • starkerealm
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    @starkerealm

    Name the defenses.

    You go on and on about how they have more. Name them. Provide examples. Because it's the only point I want clarrification from you on, the rest is just you arguing opinion.

    Sorc abilities with defensive value? Armor/Aegis, Clanfear, Bolt Escape, Encase, Prison, Ward, Negate, Lightning Form, Surge. And this is just off the top of my head, without actually sitting down and thinking about it.

    Seriously, with this? Just put some points in health.

    ...Can I get a copy of that spongebob meme? Because I really feel like that meme is applicable here."JuSt pUt pOiNtS iN hEaLtH" Lets go through these in order including the ones I've allready picked apart.

    Let's start with the part where you don't know the class, nor do you understand it. Which is painfully obvious from the rest of your post. And, just stop there, because you didn't bring up a single salient point.

    If you'd like to discuss how the class works, I'd recommend you try playing it, before telling someone who has extensive experience with it, how to play their class.

    I know trials.

    Evidently not. As you don't seem to understand how players can deal with the content. Only the way you were told to do so.

    You know how to follow a guide. That's not the same thing as "knowing trials."
    Edited by starkerealm on October 4, 2018 2:36AM
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    @starkerealm

    Name the defenses.

    You go on and on about how they have more. Name them. Provide examples. Because it's the only point I want clarrification from you on, the rest is just you arguing opinion.

    Sorc abilities with defensive value? Armor/Aegis, Clanfear, Bolt Escape, Encase, Prison, Ward, Negate, Lightning Form, Surge. And this is just off the top of my head, without actually sitting down and thinking about it.

    Seriously, with this? Just put some points in health.

    ...Can I get a copy of that spongebob meme? Because I really feel like that meme is applicable here."JuSt pUt pOiNtS iN hEaLtH" Lets go through these in order including the ones I've allready picked apart.

    Let's start with the part where you don't know the class, nor do you understand it. Which is painfully obvious from the rest of your post. And, just stop there, because you didn't bring up a single salient point.

    If you'd like to discuss how the class works, I'd recommend you try playing it, before telling someone who has extensive experience with it, how to play their class.

    I know trials.

    Evidently not. As you don't seem to understand how players can deal with the content. Only the way you were told to do so.

    You know how to follow a guide. That's not the same thing as "knowing trials."

    If you are going to go on about how I should beat my head against a wall, figure out my own unique build and figure out how to do the trials all by my loansome you...woefully overestimate the depth of this game and it's combat system. By a large margin.

    This game abhores people finding their own solutions. Find me a unique build, and it will be nerfed next patch.

    But this has just become semantics at this point. Y'not even going to try to adress the points you know you cant win, now your just going to try to deplatform with insinuations of incompitence, so. Have fun with that.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 4, 2018 2:46AM
  • starkerealm
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    If you are going to go on about how I should beat my head against a wall, figure out my own unique build and figure out how to do the trials all by my loansome you...woefully overestimate the depth of this game and it's combat system. By a large margin.

    But this has just become semantics at this point. Y'not even going to try to adress the points you know you cant win, now your just going to try to deplatform with insinuations of incompitence, so. Have fun with that.

    It's not about semantics. It is simultaneously about you being unable to provide a coherent discussion on the point beyond, "no one does that," which should be obvious, because outside of sorc tanking, none of this was necessary before. So, any discussion on how this isn't the end for MagDPS starts at understanding that Ward and Harness were panaceas before. They're not now, and you to actually understand your classes in order to improve survival.

    Saying, "oh, yeah, no one uses lightning form," because there's literally no point if you live in a world where Hardened Ward ticks for 15k, and doesn't benefit from Ward and Resolve don't apply. Except, now they do. Similar situation with Aegis, which you're thinking is only about block mitigation, it's not, it's also minor ward and resolve. Sure, that's not worth considering when shields don't have resists. So of course, "no one uses them."

    I mean, really, the point where I stopped taking you seriously was where you thought DKs has encase. I mean, right, all my DK builds include the Sorceror's Dark Magic skill line. Just like all your Nightblades slot Bird of Prey.

    So, maybe, if you're going to offer a discussion on specific class balance, it should be a class you play. Just a thought.

    If you want to talk about Nightblade survival in trials, that's different. And, yeah, you're going to take a DPS hit to avoid dying. You know, like the stam players do.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    If you are going to go on about how I should beat my head against a wall, figure out my own unique build and figure out how to do the trials all by my loansome you...woefully overestimate the depth of this game and it's combat system. By a large margin.

    But this has just become semantics at this point. Y'not even going to try to adress the points you know you cant win, now your just going to try to deplatform with insinuations of incompitence, so. Have fun with that.

    It's not about semantics. It is simultaneously about you being unable to provide a coherent discussion on the point beyond, "no one does that," which should be obvious, because outside of sorc tanking, none of this was necessary before. So, any discussion on how this isn't the end for MagDPS starts at understanding that Ward and Harness were panaceas before. They're not now, and you to actually understand your classes in order to improve survival.

    Saying, "oh, yeah, no one uses lightning form," because there's literally no point if you live in a world where Hardened Ward ticks for 15k, and doesn't benefit from Ward and Resolve don't apply. Except, now they do. Similar situation with Aegis, which you're thinking is only about block mitigation, it's not, it's also minor ward and resolve. Sure, that's not worth considering when shields don't have resists. So of course, "no one uses them."

    I mean, really, the point where I stopped taking you seriously was where you thought DKs has encase. I mean, right, all my DK builds include the Sorceror's Dark Magic skill line. Just like all your Nightblades slot Bird of Prey.

    So, maybe, if you're going to offer a discussion on specific class balance, it should be a class you play. Just a thought.

    If you want to talk about Nightblade survival in trials, that's different. And, yeah, you're going to take a DPS hit to avoid dying. You know, like the stam players do.

    DK's have talons. Encase is a AOE root in front of you, Talonsis an AOE root around you. Same bloody difference. Both will be used for trash immobilization.

    And yes. My point is that nobody used this ***. And there is no reason for them to use it because shields were not a PVE problem in the first place, and the content was specifically designed around them the way they were, and still is. And we both know the content wont be changed.

    This is my point. They are trying to fix a problem that wasn't a problem and damaging the class in the process, pleasing no one but people like you who see people not struggling want want to make them struggle out of sheer malice.

    I have no doubt the survivors will adapt. The real question is: Why should we, if the entirety of these changes are there to do nothing more then upset the established order with no real reason for doing so? Add more difficultys if you want to challenge. More buffs to the content, not nerfs to the player. Both achieve the same thing, one doesn't throw peoples builds and way of play out the damn window.

    And if you cannot understand that, the only thing I can say is, thank god you are not in the buisness of game design.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 4, 2018 3:05AM
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