leepalmer95 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I mean; I play a Nightblade a ton like I said...this goes to 5 seconds, You remove one of the few things in the game that actually a counter to me ..Its not like it was on multiple classes either; it was on other Nightblades.

@Xsorus Yeah I'm reading this change as a huge--and unnecessary--buff to cloak tbh. I'm not sure why they would want to buff nightblades at the expense of other nightblades and all those other nightblades' friends. It's just puzzling, even to me.

Also, this will make the choice for Reaper's Mark much more easy, which is a much more dangerous morph in even semi-competent hands.

They're nerfing a hard counter, hard counters just aren't good for the game. Which which directly negate a class's defensive skill for a long period of time isn't balanced.

5s is more than enough time to do something to the nb, dot them up, snare them, deal some dmg, call them out to others or get into aoe spamming range or just reapply mark before if runs out.

Now it's as soft counter like it should be, it still basically stop's they defensive skill but now the nb actually has a chance if the marker doesn't take advantage of it.

You seem to be missing some of the points presented here. Allow me to give an example.of how I often use mark.


There are gankers in our back lines, 2 or more. I see them gank a person and stealth, usually no time to mark, which is fine. I carry detect pots for this reason. However, the issue is, if I just pop a pot and gank one, I run the risk of either getting ganked after the one kill or being forced to engage the other flat footed.

So instead, I mark one, once I pop that pot. 99% of the time this results in the marked NB running for LOS (or even funnier, to the end of the map ) While the other is in passive detect mode. Now you have split them up and have the time you need to gank one without having to worry about the other usually engaging, since he still has probably 10 seconds or more left on his mark timer.


Now, I do this every time I am on my ganking NB, every damn time. So while I don't play him for long stretches these day, I believe I have over 400 days played on him. So I have done it quite a few times

If this change goes live with a 5 second duration, the skill as a counter to stealth/cloak is useless, period.It still has some use for major fracture on ranged builds, however I'd bet they would opt for the other morph at that point.

I love the skill, it's quite powerful, very troll and absolutely needed as a counter to stealth/cloak. But hey, what do I know...I have only solo ganked for years...

I too was very surpised to read that in the patch notes and the nerf makes no sense at all.

I play all classess, but my mains are Nightblades, even so I say this completely objectively with honest feedback...

Who uses this skill? Nightblades, because it is in their skill tree... but what type of Nightblades? The only type of Nightblades that use this skill are Nightblades that hunt other Nightblades!

It offers a group utility when you are in PvP and have a Nightblade in your group. That Nightblade attempts to protect the team from other Nightblades. You don't need to mark the Sorc or Templar, Warden or Dragonknight, because they do not disapear into the shadows like the Assassin class. They are strong enough to run around in the open. So the skill is mainly used against other Nightblades so that even if they use cloak, you can track and kill them.

30 seconds is a long time. Although I have never once ever heard anyone complain about the skill, now that a nerf is coming, it made me think about it and yes, perhaps 30 seconds IS too long... but nerfing it by 25 seconds down to 5 seconds????? Who will use that skill ever again?

This is actually a buff to Nightblades! As a Nightblade, other Nightblades in other groups only have 5 seconds to catch me. If I can break line of sight, hide in a building or behind rocks, as soon as 5 seconds has passed, I'm free! Free to hunt and track you and try to pick off members in the group again until marked for another laughable 5 seconds.

As a Nightblade you would think this should make me happy? But no, I think it's just a bad move and will make people complain about Nightblades even more than they do now.

Our whole game and what people consider overpowered and underpowered seems to revolve around a simple recipe: If I kill you, I am happy, if you kill me, I am unhappy and you are overpowered! That's my opinion of the forums and people in game who always moan and groan about other classes being overpowered. Playing all classes I've never once thought that about Nightblades, and would disagree about the notion that 'Cloak' is overpowered. However, this kind of change to mark will bring more statements like this. Simply because that skill is mainly used as a deterrant against other Nightblades.

The only time I ever use this skill is in PvP to deter and combat other Nightblades to protect my group. The only time I seem to get marked is by other players doing the same.

I think if it is to be reduced in time, 15 seconds is a good time, 10 seconds as an absolute minimum to keep the skill viable. A 25 second nerf renders this skill useless and I would no longer run it on my bar.

EDIT: Just reading @DDuke post above... I hadn't thought of bow users using this for the debuff on ALL players... however, I would still stand by what I said about 10-15 seconds duration. I do think that a 5 second time is too small and would render the skill useless, and in effect only help Nightblades escape. ...Of course when one of those escaping Nightblades is ME, I am not going to complain

technohic wrote: »

The thing is; yes it's too hard of a counter for 30 seconds, but yes; it's also necessary as the other counters are too short of duration and too short of radius. 5 seconds is probably around the time I will leave myself exposed to begin with when going after a target so it's not much help now and not widely used before the nerf.

It doesn't affect zergs detecting NBs as much as people claim though. With a zerg, you can afford to have someone spamming this and as far as I can tell ; I don't see a CD or recourse timer. Think this will more effectively just be reduced to a zerg only tool.

Again; I thought this nerf would come with improving the soft counters and not be so definite.

Other counters to cloak is fine.

There are more than enough.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

The thing is; yes it's too hard of a counter for 30 seconds, but yes; it's also necessary as the other counters are too short of duration and too short of radius. 5 seconds is probably around the time I will leave myself exposed to begin with when going after a target so it's not much help now and not widely used before the nerf.

It doesn't affect zergs detecting NBs as much as people claim though. With a zerg, you can afford to have someone spamming this and as far as I can tell ; I don't see a CD or recourse timer. Think this will more effectively just be reduced to a zerg only tool.

Again; I thought this nerf would come with improving the soft counters and not be so definite.

Other counters to cloak is fine.

There are more than enough.

Is really every other softcounter fine or are you just saying that because steel tornado seems so omnipresent?

Every other soft counter is.

Want to reveal a nb? Use flare/ radiant magelight, there are plenty of aoe's, nb's cannot cloak forever and mag ones you can easily snare.

I've killed them all fine on my stamplar, a simple snare + jab spam is easy.
Stam sorc, hurricane

Literally any stam class using steel tornado is fine.

Magicka has lots of counters too, radiant, lots of class aoe's, flare etc...


It has enough counters just use them.

@MacCait I couldn't agree more. I don't usually use the forums too much, but felt I needed to raise this issue. I think it's both a buff to nightblades and harmful to nightblades and pvp generally. Really pleased with the amount of constructive feedback. Hopefully ZoS will take note.

@leepalmer95 repeating the same argument doesn't make it true, can we keep this constructive and only add new thoughts or points for debate please.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Arthalion1 wrote: »

@MacCait I couldn't agree more. I don't usually use the forums too much, but felt I needed to raise this issue. I think it's both a buff to nightblades and harmful to nightblades and pvp generally. Really pleased with the amount of constructive feedback. Hopefully ZoS will take note.

@leepalmer95 repeating the same argument doesn't make it true, can we keep this constructive and only add new thoughts or points for debate please.

There doesn't need to be 'new thoughts' when what i'm saying is true.

It's a good change hard counters aren't a good thing.

Indeed, hard counters are never a good thing.

I also tend to agree on the AoE thought. It's an easy applicable solution. Although some NBs simply cloak on top of me when my Hurricane is active and are out of the radius before the next tick happens. But there are other AoEs as well and they all have it's use beside revealing a single class.

But here it is. Those skills that are mainly designed to reveal, magelight/ expert hunter/ flare, are lackluster in doing so and even despite their passive buffs a heavy choice regarding bar space.

Like others have said before me: no other class demands to slot a counter only for them. Those skills are too niché in their use and simply not good enough.

4k stam for 6m reveal is nothing good.

Piercing mark is used plenty in pvp - if 'nobody used it' this thread wouldn't exist. It's not used by everyone, but the people who do use it enjoy spamming it in a very 'troll-like' manner.

You get marked, then you purge it, and you are marked again, etc. Using the alliance war skill 'purge' really eats away at your resources -- something that has been barely manageable.

With the upcoming patch there will be a hefty cost increase for several NB skills ... we can only stretch our resources so far. By reducing the 'mark' portion of piercing mark, we can now wait out 5 seconds of being 'marked' instead of using purge. In the end, this helps balance out resource sustainability. The other option was to leave piercing mark as it is on live and give NBs access to a 'free' purge --- but, somehow, I don't think this option would have gone over very well in the upcoming patch.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Arthalion1 wrote: »

@MacCait I couldn't agree more. I don't usually use the forums too much, but felt I needed to raise this issue. I think it's both a buff to nightblades and harmful to nightblades and pvp generally. Really pleased with the amount of constructive feedback. Hopefully ZoS will take note.

@leepalmer95 repeating the same argument doesn't make it true, can we keep this constructive and only add new thoughts or points for debate please.

There doesn't need to be 'new thoughts' when what i'm saying is true.

It's a good change hard counters aren't a good thing.

Indeed, hard counters are never a good thing.

I also tend to agree on the AoE thought. It's an easy applicable solution. Although some NBs simply cloak on top of me when my Hurricane is active and are out of the radius before the next tick happens. But there are other AoEs as well and they all have it's use beside revealing a single class.

But here it is. Those skills that are mainly designed to reveal, magelight/ expert hunter/ flare, are lackluster in doing so and even despite their passive buffs a heavy choice regarding bar space.

Like others have said before me: no other class demands to slot a counter only for them. Those skills are too niché in their use and simply not good enough.

4k stam for 6m reveal is nothing good.

4k magicka for a skill that gets pretty much negated by another skill is nothing good.

When cloak is countered it not like other counters which do increased dmg or such. It just completely negates the skill.

Yes your correct with this BUT you must be realise as we do that if Mark is nerfed to the point in which they are suggesting, cloak will become stronger and thus have more complaints leading to the nerf hammer probably in Q1 next year. We also all know as previously mentioned nerfs arnt done in half measures, so by all means push for this change but be prepared to lose cloak as it is now in the near future

danno8 wrote: »

Arthalion1 wrote: »

CeeJonesy wrote: »

its a skill spammed by zerglings who hide in a group of healers for the most part. nothing will change it will still be spammed or they will swap to flares

it's not the only counter. like I said there are flares. there's detect pots. aoe damage breaks stealth (caltrops). you can fear someone out of stealth. mark still works. also if you are on a nb and need more than 5 seconds to burst another nb you have put mark on then you need to learn the class a bit.

I was expecting some replies of this nature. I am guessing you are a nb and do not like being marked. I don't either, but it is the only reliable counter and should remain.

You will know full well that with the nb movement speed and dodge roll we can easily dodge roll and cloak away from aoes and be gone in a flash.

I can assure you I am a very competent nb, but do feel this is not a balanced change.

I don't think I have ever seen any NB revealed by a Flare in my entire gameplay experience in ESO. I can't believe people actually suggest this skill as some kind of NB counter. It sure is funny (to me and I am sure to the NB watching from a safe distance) watching people spam this skill all over in a futile attempt to reveal the stealthier.

I too was rather surprised that Mark was even on ZoS's radar. How did that skill even get noticed? Did the class rep complain about it? No one else was.

LOL! The fact that you aren't seeing any gankers being revealed by 'revealing flare' means it is working as a deterrent. Revealing flare is used (spammed) by people who don't want to get ganked (or they don't want people in their group to get ganked). If you are a ganker looking for a target, you sure as heck aren't going to go where reveal flare is being spammed. In this respect, the deterrent effect of revealing flare has lots of success!

The morph scorching flare is, IMO, the better option. I use this morph, but I don't 'spam' it .. I use it more selectively and it is very effective. The only problem is that after you've 'burned' a few players this way, you end up becoming the focus of several members of their group (LOL!)

Note: skills that reveal stealthed players are designed as 'defensive' skills. ( People who get disappointed in these skills are the ones who try to use 'defensive' skills in an 'offensive' manner (the ones who try to use these skills to actively hunt down players in stealth or who are invisible)).

Arthalion1 wrote: »

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Only reliable counter? lol the dude just gave you a whole list of reliable counters... the reason why no one but zerglings are currently using this skill is cause its not very good and completly unnecessary. You do know only the one who marked you can see you right?
Doesnt matter if he is a NB or not he has a good point and if does play a NB he couldnt care any less about this skill, even if it would get buffed to a 1min duration;)

Besides that and also especially of that your early point made is very valid; Why nerf a skill that kinda sucks, whats the point? I would really love a good explanation for that because there are so many other skills that actually do need readjustment.

He gave me a list of supposed counters. He didn't give me a list of reliable counters. I am in favour of balance. I main nb, but I have played every class in the game.

If you're honest with yourself, when was the last time you were revealed by a flare? Or inner light? As for the suggestion people are being feared out of stealth... really? With the use of shadow image, all aoe abilities are useless against me, as I port then cloak. Even without shadow image, dodge roll and sprint will get me out of range.

As you say, this ability isn't great. I make the choice to slot it, as I find fights against other nightblades can be never ending with cloak and it really helps when outnumbered and your opponents have a nb.

The funny thing is all the people agreeing with the nerf (who hold themselves out as highly skilled players) dont use the ability. Let's face it, they're not purists. If they really thought it was op, they'd slot it.

I would say a reduction in range from 50m, to say, 28m would probably be more effective at balancing the ability if the main complaint is that you're discovered by a zerg now and then.

I play on Xbox, so perhaps things are different on pc, but I wouldn't say I get marked all that often. If I do, I've probably just secured 3 or 4 kills and that group should have the opportunity to 1. Find me or 2. Scare me off. Lol.

I played Xbox and if you ever fought out numbered you know how broken mark is as a counter.

good riddance, no respectable nightblade should be using mark anyway.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Arthalion1 wrote: »

@MacCait I couldn't agree more. I don't usually use the forums too much, but felt I needed to raise this issue. I think it's both a buff to nightblades and harmful to nightblades and pvp generally. Really pleased with the amount of constructive feedback. Hopefully ZoS will take note.

@leepalmer95 repeating the same argument doesn't make it true, can we keep this constructive and only add new thoughts or points for debate please.

There doesn't need to be 'new thoughts' when what i'm saying is true.

It's a good change hard counters aren't a good thing.

Indeed, hard counters are never a good thing.

I also tend to agree on the AoE thought. It's an easy applicable solution. Although some NBs simply cloak on top of me when my Hurricane is active and are out of the radius before the next tick happens. But there are other AoEs as well and they all have it's use beside revealing a single class.

But here it is. Those skills that are mainly designed to reveal, magelight/ expert hunter/ flare, are lackluster in doing so and even despite their passive buffs a heavy choice regarding bar space.

Like others have said before me: no other class demands to slot a counter only for them. Those skills are too niché in their use and simply not good enough.

4k stam for 6m reveal is nothing good.

4k magicka for a skill that gets pretty much negated by another skill is nothing good.

When cloak is countered it not like other counters which do increased dmg or such. It just completely negates the skill.

When cloak is so bad, why so many NBs still use it? I think for such a strong skill it should be hard to use.

MacCait wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Arthalion1 wrote: »

@MacCait I couldn't agree more. I don't usually use the forums too much, but felt I needed to raise this issue. I think it's both a buff to nightblades and harmful to nightblades and pvp generally. Really pleased with the amount of constructive feedback. Hopefully ZoS will take note.

@leepalmer95 repeating the same argument doesn't make it true, can we keep this constructive and only add new thoughts or points for debate please.

There doesn't need to be 'new thoughts' when what i'm saying is true.

It's a good change hard counters aren't a good thing.

Indeed, hard counters are never a good thing.

I also tend to agree on the AoE thought. It's an easy applicable solution. Although some NBs simply cloak on top of me when my Hurricane is active and are out of the radius before the next tick happens. But there are other AoEs as well and they all have it's use beside revealing a single class.

But here it is. Those skills that are mainly designed to reveal, magelight/ expert hunter/ flare, are lackluster in doing so and even despite their passive buffs a heavy choice regarding bar space.

Like others have said before me: no other class demands to slot a counter only for them. Those skills are too niché in their use and simply not good enough.

4k stam for 6m reveal is nothing good.

4k magicka for a skill that gets pretty much negated by another skill is nothing good.

When cloak is countered it not like other counters which do increased dmg or such. It just completely negates the skill.

When cloak is so bad, why so many NBs still use it? I think for such a strong skill it should be hard to use.

Do you think that because you do not play a nightblade?

If so do you feel that is objective?

Sorry to tell you, but I also play a nightblade. Not my main but close second. Don't know what you're on about but many NBs still do use it. It a very potent skill for offense, defense and retreat that is uneasy to use. But time after time the counters, at least the ones which are mainly designed to counter cloak, get changed to a state in which the cloaking person has it easier.

Tonturri wrote: »

Deleting a nightblade's primary class defense for 30 seconds by pressing one button with no way to counter it beyond slotting an extremely expensive skill they can only get a few uses out of was totally unbalanced. It's true that Cloak is...a bit wonky on balance still, but this is a nice step in the right direction.

Makring a NB still makes 'em suffer, but it's no longer a death sentence. And you can still maintain it easily enough.

this ^
QFT

in addition i think mark should be removed from eso completely.
and if they dont remove it, then i think it should be 3 seconds instead of 5.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Arthalion1 wrote: »

@MacCait I couldn't agree more. I don't usually use the forums too much, but felt I needed to raise this issue. I think it's both a buff to nightblades and harmful to nightblades and pvp generally. Really pleased with the amount of constructive feedback. Hopefully ZoS will take note.

@leepalmer95 repeating the same argument doesn't make it true, can we keep this constructive and only add new thoughts or points for debate please.

There doesn't need to be 'new thoughts' when what i'm saying is true.

It's a good change hard counters aren't a good thing.

Indeed, hard counters are never a good thing.

I also tend to agree on the AoE thought. It's an easy applicable solution. Although some NBs simply cloak on top of me when my Hurricane is active and are out of the radius before the next tick happens. But there are other AoEs as well and they all have it's use beside revealing a single class.

But here it is. Those skills that are mainly designed to reveal, magelight/ expert hunter/ flare, are lackluster in doing so and even despite their passive buffs a heavy choice regarding bar space.

Like others have said before me: no other class demands to slot a counter only for them. Those skills are too niché in their use and simply not good enough.

4k stam for 6m reveal is nothing good.

4k magicka for a skill that gets pretty much negated by another skill is nothing good.

When cloak is countered it not like other counters which do increased dmg or such. It just completely negates the skill.

When cloak is so bad, why so many NBs still use it? I think for such a strong skill it should be hard to use.

Do you think that because you do not play a nightblade?

If so do you feel that is objective?

Sorry to tell you, but I also play a nightblade. Not my main but close second. Don't know what you're on about but many NBs still do use it. It a very potent skill for offense, defense and retreat that is uneasy to use. But time after time the counters, at least the ones which are mainly designed to counter cloak, get changed to a state in which the cloaking person has it easier.

I wasn't being obstinate or pedantic... I was just curious if you think Cloak is so bad because you do not play a Nightblade, and if you feel that is objective or unbias if you don't?

I think I am a little confused though... when you said "Don't know what you're on about but many NBs still do use it". You lost me there. I didn't say anything about cloak. I thought the thread was about Piercing mark.

However, if talking about cloak... for me, as a Nightblade main who plays ALL classes, I do not honestly feel cloak is overpowered or super easy. It has many counters to it that are exceptionally easy to use.

When I am playing a Nightblade in PvP, good players do not worry about Nightblades, but just spam aoe's, revealing falres, caltrops, magelight and camoflage hunter and worse... use detection pots lol. All regular players in PvP use these skills to combat Cloak. And of course other Nightblades can also use Piercing Mark, which no Nightblade likes to get marked with.

Likewise if I am playing a templar or stamsorc in PvP, I use detection pots, spam aoe's and use mage light, generally giving Nightblades a hard time.

All the time a Nightblade is spamming cloak, they are using valuable respources. Of course if its a magblade in PvP, then they will have a large mag pool, and high recovery and can spam cloak for a long time, but no amount of spamming will save them from all the things that break their cloak, like aoe's. Once discovered, they are doomed and it's very risky for them. Most don't get away, only the very best. Stamblades have to be a lot more careful using Cloak. Its not so low cost that it is a spammable, and with only 10-12k magica, that is only 3-5 cloaks (well timed) before they are out of magicka and stuck in the open.

To use cloak effectively you have to learn how to be unpredictable. It's a psychology game. Most will look in one direction where they expect you to be. If you are new to Nightblading then you may get caught easily. The more experienced will use many psychological tricks to get you to think they are in one place, when in fact you are in another. That's being a bit more experienced at being a Nightblade.

Makes me laugh if I pull a Nightblade out when I am not Nightblading, because as a Nightblade I think that way naturally, so I will think of all the Nightblade places they may hide. Likewise if I am in a group and also on a Nightblade... I will keep an eye out for enemy blades and use Piercing Mark to deter them or track them down.

So overall, objectively, I do not think cloak is overpowered, or too easy. There are risks involved, which is what makes Nightblading pretty thrilling. We don't have great self heals, or powerful shields (unless tanking), and when tanking, we don't have great damage. Magblades hit like a wet sponge. Tanks are hard to take down, but generally most wont do much damage. Stamblades are the heavy hitters but use cloak more sparingly.

Its swings and roundabouts. My other characters can't use stealth, but have powerful shields, self heals, and can hit hard. Different classes play different ways.