Piercing mark, reconsider this nerf.

leepalmer95

Syiccal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

30 is too long your right, but I very rarely see nb's using this skill, it's very niche skill I think. 15 would be reasonable with maybe a 18 second cool down so at least it can't be reapplied instantly .

Lots of people use this skill?

hmm ..I can't remember the last I was marked to be fair in pvp or bg

Arthalion1 wrote: »

Firstly, thank you for all the replies and interest. It is great to see this properly debated.

To those arguing this is ability is too harsh against nbs, I dont agree, but can see your point.

I have had three max level nbs. I don't slot mark on my magicka nb, but do on stamina back bar. After this change, the ability would have to go. Putting aside the zerglings using this in zergs to stop gankers (which is actually a fair use - I've been a ganker, but if you want to have your fun then groups are going to come after you for dropping members), this ability is a great tool for forcing a nb to engage. Especially if it is a group of 2 or 3 nbs in small man fights. If it lasts 5 seconds it's not usable. If it lasts 15 or possibly 10 seconds it retains its value.

I would also caution that if cloak is seen as even more op, which it will after this patch, then ZoS will eventually take action and we all know they like to use a chainsaw to cut toast, so cloak will take the nerf hammer. There needs to be counters.

^^ This is true, I can foresee this too if cloak counters are steadily removed

There is plenty of cloak counters, nerfing a 'counter' that straight up negated the build isn't going to increase the amount of nb's.

Cloak is the most countered skill in the game, any aoe, pots, skills like magelight, camo hunter and flare etc...

Arthalion1

DDuke wrote: »

Arthalion1 wrote: »

I was very surprised to read in the patch notes that the stealth detection element of piercing mark is being reduced from 30 seconds to 5 seconds.

There are several reasons why I consider this change to be unwarranted:

1. From my experience (as a nightblade), I would not say this skill is overly utilised and certainly won't be after this patch.

There's hardly a fight in Cyrodiil where I don't get Piercing Marked. Even in Battlegrounds it is extremely common. Are you being serious right now?

Arthalion1 wrote: »

2. Cloak is one of the most complained about skills in the game, so to essentially remove the only hard counter seems like an odd decision- I appreciate it is not being removed, but given the cost of the ability it cannot be justified for a 5 second duration.

Yes.

And based on this thread I guess you're not playing a stealth oriented NB (and if you are, it's gotta be a magicka NB with Purge slotted who uses Piercing Mark on other NBs).

Thanks for your input.

I personally feel it is partially our job to avoid being marked and to consider how it affects play.

1. If you're playing in a big group, then it's not too relevant if you are marked, as you should be working as a team and can fight on utilising group heals and dodge roll etc until it passes.

2. In small man situations it forces you to focus the person who is marking you, or to engage.

3. In solo gameplay, you need to be selective of your targets I.e. kill quickly or have an escape plan or if it's 1v1 then outplay your opponent. If you attack a group and get marked then you've failed at that task. I don't think you should always have cloak to save you.

With regard to duration, yeah 30 seconds is a bit of a killer, but so is 5 seconds... to the skill. I'm glad you agree on that and hope ZoS do too. Otherwise, the skill is irrelevant.

I would note that my thread is also aimed at protecting cloak. If this ability is seen as more op, I can see an awful change coming.

Fyi I currently play bow only, so mark is handy for fracture, but we all know most use it for detection. I have also played melee and ranged magicka and stamina. I recently posted a melee mag nb build on forums.

DeadlyRecluse

I have always found it bizarre that the single hardest counter for cloak is a NB skill.

mr_wazzabi

5s is useless. Any decent nb can escape in 5s and recloak.

Lord_Eomer

If this nerf goes live, Good Luck hunting gankers!

NobleX35

This was a good change. I main a stamplar, but I also play a nightblade. I pretty much play exclusively solo when on my nightblade and I get marked all the time. This skill was drastically overperforming because it negated the core defense skill of the class for far too long of a duration. This skill should have a shorter duration than detect pots because it has no cooldown or downtime like detect pots.

I will say that I think the secondary effects of this skill should be relooked at because nightblades already get major fracture from their spammable, so that debuff is basically rendered useless. If it provided some other effect or debuff, then that could help keep the skill relevant.

Kolache

It's crazy to think that if 30 seconds was broken imbalanced for this long that NBs somehow managed to thrive despite it. Maybe all NBs are just really good

Arthalion1

Kolache wrote: »

It's crazy to think that if 30 seconds was broken imbalanced for this long that NBs somehow managed to thrive despite it. Maybe all NBs are just really good

Exactly. It's been 30s for four years. Suddenly it needs a nerf to 5s? I think we need some middle ground here, if they insist on changing it.

NyassaV

I have mixed feelings about the change since I often feel like I need mark to deal with crappy zergling snipers while I'm trying to already fight 3+ people

usmguy1234

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Arthalion1 wrote: »

I was very surprised to read in the patch notes that the stealth detection element of piercing mark is being reduced from 30 seconds to 5 seconds.

There are several reasons why I consider this change to be unwarranted:

1. From my experience (as a nightblade), I would not say this skill is overly utilised and certainly won't be after this patch.

2. Cloak is one of the most complained about skills in the game, so to essentially remove the only hard counter seems like an odd decision- I appreciate it is not being removed, but given the cost of the ability it cannot be justified for a 5 second duration.

3. Very few nightblades are using this ability for major breach, so it will be redundant. We have surprise attack for major breach.

4. Does anyone even complain about this ability? Only the person using mark can see the target. How was it considered overpowered?

5. Finally, it is a huge reduction. I could accept say 15 seconds, but 5 seconds really is overkill.

Please keep in mind this is coming from someone who has mainly played nightblade from launch.

Am I missing something?

This isn't a soft counter like things should be this is a hard counter.

This is a 'use this skill and negate your class defence skill for 30s from 60m away' skill

Use one of the many counters to cloak, there are plenty. This skill shouldn't be a slot it and counter a class completely. Now it's a soft counter.

Loads of people use this skill, usually the zergings nb's surrounds by 20 people who then proceed to chase down the 1 nb across the map.

At least it's just a skill.... sorcs are having an entire dlc released to do exactly that.

knighting68

[comment removed] I misunderstood the change.

Arthalion1

knighting68 wrote: »

So everyone is focused on the stealth detect, but fail to mention that it also provides Major Breach and Major Fracture for 30 seconds which can really help in a fight. And no, not every NB uses Surprise Attack in order to get Major Breach.

My guess is that they did this to soften the blow on the damage shield nerf, which IMO is very understandable and fair. For example, I would place a 30 second mark on a Sorc, then wait for the exact moment their shield drops to gank them while they have resistances reduced over 5,000+. However, with the mark only lasting 5 seconds, it's not going to work.

Fracture still lasts 30s only detect is 5s

knighting68

Arthalion1 wrote: »

knighting68 wrote: »

So everyone is focused on the stealth detect, but fail to mention that it also provides Major Breach and Major Fracture for 30 seconds which can really help in a fight. And no, not every NB uses Surprise Attack in order to get Major Breach.

My guess is that they did this to soften the blow on the damage shield nerf, which IMO is very understandable and fair. For example, I would place a 30 second mark on a Sorc, then wait for the exact moment their shield drops to gank them while they have resistances reduced over 5,000+. However, with the mark only lasting 5 seconds, it's not going to work.

Fracture still lasts 30s only detect is 5s

Well crap, my bad. Thanks for not calling me an idiot, which I deserve.

Footfalls

I was disappointed with this piercing mark nerf, the one skill that could genuinely counter cloak.

If anything, they should buff the other cloak countering skills (magelight and evil hunter) to last 10 seconds vs cloak. Their current duration and radius are not nearly long enough to stop a nightblade from just walking away.

Post-Murkmire patch I foresee people complaining that cloak is too powerful (because you nerfed its counters) and as a result cloak getting nerfed in Q1 2019, which is something I absolutely don't want because I like how powerful and fun cloak is to use. My general opinion is that cloak should remain a powerful skill, but it should have viable counters as well.

Arthalion1

Footfalls wrote: »

I was disappointed with this piercing mark nerf, the one skill that could genuinely counter cloak.

If anything, they should buff the other cloak countering skills (magelight and evil hunter) to last 10 seconds vs cloak. Their current duration and radius are not nearly long enough to stop a nightblade from just walking away.

Post-Murkmire patch I foresee people complaining that cloak is too powerful (because you nerfed its counters) and as a result cloak getting nerfed in Q1 2019, which is something I absolutely don't want because I like how powerful and fun cloak is to use. My general opinion is that cloak should remain a powerful skill, but it should have viable counters as well.

Nail on the head. My thoughts entirely.

mr_wazzabi

Mark stealth detection needs to last 10s minimum.
5s is only enough to catch nooby nb's.

templesus

Just give cloak a cool down, problem solved.

MisterBigglesworth

templesus wrote: »

Just give cloak a cool down, problem solved.

A lot of problems in this game would be solved with cooldowns. That's why most MMOs have them.

RedRook

It needed a change, 30 seconds is crazy.

Reducing it to five seconds is a typical smash-it-to-bits "adjustment" from ZOS. This is a buff if you sell detect pots.

At least they left the PVE morph alone, some credit for that.

technohic

I thought it was going to be accompanied with other tools being made better to detect stealth in exchange for the hard counter. Seems it was not.

evoniee

if no aoe stamnb vs no aoe magnb fight eachother using mark, the chance magnb can cleanse it is high, so this nerf is welcome for stamnb

waitwhat

As a stamblade partisan, I would support reverting this nerf and extending the duration of magelight and camo hunter's reveal to 15 seconds.

Xsorus

I mean; I play a Nightblade a ton like I said...this goes to 5 seconds, You remove one of the few things in the game that actually a counter to me ..Its not like it was on multiple classes either; it was on other Nightblades.

waitwhat

Xsorus wrote: »

I mean; I play a Nightblade a ton like I said...this goes to 5 seconds, You remove one of the few things in the game that actually a counter to me ..Its not like it was on multiple classes either; it was on other Nightblades.

@Xsorus Yeah I'm reading this change as a huge--and unnecessary--buff to cloak tbh. I'm not sure why they would want to buff nightblades at the expense of other nightblades and all those other nightblades' friends. It's just puzzling, even to me.

Also, this will make the choice for Reaper's Mark much more easy, which is a much more dangerous morph in even semi-competent hands.

leepalmer95

waitwhat wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I mean; I play a Nightblade a ton like I said...this goes to 5 seconds, You remove one of the few things in the game that actually a counter to me ..Its not like it was on multiple classes either; it was on other Nightblades.

@Xsorus Yeah I'm reading this change as a huge--and unnecessary--buff to cloak tbh. I'm not sure why they would want to buff nightblades at the expense of other nightblades and all those other nightblades' friends. It's just puzzling, even to me.

Also, this will make the choice for Reaper's Mark much more easy, which is a much more dangerous morph in even semi-competent hands.

They're nerfing a hard counter, hard counters just aren't good for the game. Which which directly negate a class's defensive skill for a long period of time isn't balanced.

5s is more than enough time to do something to the nb, dot them up, snare them, deal some dmg, call them out to others or get into aoe spamming range or just reapply mark before if runs out.

Now it's as soft counter like it should be, it still basically stop's they defensive skill but now the nb actually has a chance if the marker doesn't take advantage of it.

Xsorus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I mean; I play a Nightblade a ton like I said...this goes to 5 seconds, You remove one of the few things in the game that actually a counter to me ..Its not like it was on multiple classes either; it was on other Nightblades.

@Xsorus Yeah I'm reading this change as a huge--and unnecessary--buff to cloak tbh. I'm not sure why they would want to buff nightblades at the expense of other nightblades and all those other nightblades' friends. It's just puzzling, even to me.

Also, this will make the choice for Reaper's Mark much more easy, which is a much more dangerous morph in even semi-competent hands.

They're nerfing a hard counter, hard counters just aren't good for the game. Which which directly negate a class's defensive skill for a long period of time isn't balanced.

5s is more than enough time to do something to the nb, dot them up, snare them, deal some dmg, call them out to others or get into aoe spamming range or just reapply mark before if runs out.

Now it's as soft counter like it should be, it still basically stop's they defensive skill but now the nb actually has a chance if the marker doesn't take advantage of it.

The first two things you listed are going to be useless after the change.

Dot them up - Completely negated once they enter stealth in 5 seconds

Snares - Will not work against them period cause of Forward or Shuffle

Again calling them out to others means nothing as again..they will be stealthed in 5 seconds... Your best hope is to hopefully AOE spam them..But if they're like me and run speed pots + swift with Concealed...then good lord that won't even work.

Dojohoda

I use the skill on my magblades; it's the only way to keep the stamblade revealed long enough to chase them down. It's more important since swift jewelry. Stamblades can disappear and be a mile away in a flash.

The point I am trying to make is to agree with the OP... 5 seconds is too short. If zos is determined to buff stamblades, leave it at 5, but if zos likes counterplay, make it 15 seconds.

Dr.NRG

Arthalion1 wrote: »

CeeJonesy wrote: »

its a skill spammed by zerglings who hide in a group of healers for the most part. nothing will change it will still be spammed or they will swap to flares

it's not the only counter. like I said there are flares. there's detect pots. aoe damage breaks stealth (caltrops). you can fear someone out of stealth. mark still works. also if you are on a nb and need more than 5 seconds to burst another nb you have put mark on then you need to learn the class a bit.

I was expecting some replies of this nature. I am guessing you are a nb and do not like being marked. I don't either, but it is the only reliable counter and should remain.

You will know full well that with the nb movement speed and dodge roll we can easily dodge roll and cloak away from aoes and be gone in a flash.

I can assure you I am a very competent nb, but do feel this is not a balanced change.

Only reliable counter? lol the dude just gave you a whole list of reliable counters... the reason why no one but zerglings are currently using this skill is cause its not very good and completly unnecessary. You do know only the one who marked you can see you right?
Doesnt matter if he is a NB or not he has a good point and if does play a NB he couldnt care any less about this skill, even if it would get buffed to a 1min duration;)

Besides that and also especially of that your early point made is very valid; Why nerf a skill that kinda sucks, whats the point? I would really love a good explanation for that because there are so many other skills that actually do need readjustment.

ak_pvp

It needed to happen, hard counters are bad, and 30s of one person LAing you to reveal you for their entire shitter zerg is not good design.

Arthalion1

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Only reliable counter? lol the dude just gave you a whole list of reliable counters... the reason why no one but zerglings are currently using this skill is cause its not very good and completly unnecessary. You do know only the one who marked you can see you right?
Doesnt matter if he is a NB or not he has a good point and if does play a NB he couldnt care any less about this skill, even if it would get buffed to a 1min duration;)

Besides that and also especially of that your early point made is very valid; Why nerf a skill that kinda sucks, whats the point? I would really love a good explanation for that because there are so many other skills that actually do need readjustment.

He gave me a list of supposed counters. He didn't give me a list of reliable counters. I am in favour of balance. I main nb, but I have played every class in the game.

If you're honest with yourself, when was the last time you were revealed by a flare? Or inner light? As for the suggestion people are being feared out of stealth... really? With the use of shadow image, all aoe abilities are useless against me, as I port then cloak. Even without shadow image, dodge roll and sprint will get me out of range.

As you say, this ability isn't great. I make the choice to slot it, as I find fights against other nightblades can be never ending with cloak and it really helps when outnumbered and your opponents have a nb.

The funny thing is all the people agreeing with the nerf (who hold themselves out as highly skilled players) dont use the ability. Let's face it, they're not purists. If they really thought it was op, they'd slot it.

I would say a reduction in range from 50m, to say, 28m would probably be more effective at balancing the ability if the main complaint is that you're discovered by a zerg now and then.

I play on Xbox, so perhaps things are different on pc, but I wouldn't say I get marked all that often. If I do, I've probably just secured 3 or 4 kills and that group should have the opportunity to 1. Find me or 2. Scare me off. Lol.