Bleed Adjustment for PVP

Minno · September 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

The_Camper wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

The_Camper wrote: »

the BLEED damage on twin slashes is affected by battle spirit and is being reduced by the target resistances. Every single skill that has BLEED damage written on it is being affected by battle spirit and resistances.

The BLEED is not reduced by resistances. Every damage except Oblivion is „mitigated“ by Battle Spirit. What BLEED does and why it‘s problematic in PVP for several patches now and alarming for the upcoming patch, is explained in my first post.

Bleed damage on every single skill, including rending slashes, is being mitigated by Resistances. Only bleed damage that ignores resistances are the PASSIVE bleeds. (twin blade and blunt bleed, heavy weapons bleed)

and you go ahead and ask for nerfs to twin slash bleed damage assuming it ignores resistances. Please be informed a bit more. This is what's wrong with the community. Cries for nerfs on things that are not even problems themselves

You are wrong. Go test.

lol that's because he is seeing the initial hit and thinking "OMG BLEEDS MITIGATED BY ARMOR, RIP". But the initial hit might be the only thing mitigated (because it's not a bleed, but the dot is a bleed).

JPcrazysquirrel3 · September 2018

idk wrote: »

The first issue with reducing the damage of bleeds is it makes those same skills pretty useless in PvE. There is that half of the game.

So the answer is to only reduce their damage in PvP. To that, it is clear Zos does not want to create different rules for skills in PvP vs PvE. They have stated that much very clearly.

Exactly this.

PvE exists too.

Just because you don't like something in PvP doesn't mean it is automatically broken and needs nerfed. Because as of right now, those nerfs affect both PvEers and PvPers.

Maybe, when this game is close to it's death, ZOS will finally implement a distinction between skills in PvE content, vs those same skills in PvP content.

sneakymitchell · September 2018

Buzo wrote: »

Bleeds ignore resistances and thus are the 2. most effective source of PVP damage, only being mitigated by Minor/Major Protection (and other % based mitigation) and partially by Critical Resistance. Only Oblivion damage is stronger.

With the adjustments to damage shields, so that they are now takeing resistances into account, already overperformant bleeds will yet again be too commonly (ab)used in PVP.

I think a 33 - 40% damage reduction to skill/passive applied bleeds should keep them in check and would keep them „special“ due to their resistance ignoring nature.

So what stam can’t get penetration like magic users in light so bleed is needed.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

They could just add add mitigation depending on armour types like someone said.

15% light
10% medium.

kaithuzar · September 2018

My vote is to delete bleeds & heavy armor from the game so they can both stop screwing over light & medium users.

kaithuzar · September 2018

Stigant wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Well if they're heavy armour i'd consider them a tank anyway.

Could just change bleeds to do bonus dmg vs armour types then? I'm sure zos can do some calculations and change the bonus dmg to heavy to be about the same as it is currently.@Buzo

Or even just give the bleeds flat out % pen

@leepalmer95
Your points are non constructive.
Make bleeds punish one armor type more than others in an explicit way is the worst of „design“ choices.

Yet bleeds already do exactly that. Ignoring all resistances actually punishes HA builds the most since that's what they chose to build for. Obviously bleeds are meant to be the counter to that. It just so happens that ZOS failed terribly in the big picture design choices and gave HA better healing received and HP recovery, so they don't have as much trouble dealig with them as they should.

I'm going to repeat myself here by saying that in every other MMO I played the counter to tank was as effective against every other class/role as against tanks themselves, and that's the way it should be ... if someone builds/chooses class to withstand high amounts of damage, why should someone else be able to deal with it better? If there is a counter to a tank in form of damage bypassing his armor, it should work as well against everyone else, with maybe one exception being healers, having an ability to deal with it better.

When you bleed, you bleed untill stopped, it does not really matter what are you wearing.

Of course it matters what you’re wearing, band-aids stop bleeding

usmcjdking · September 2018

Impen should offer bleed damage reduction as well as oblivion damage reduction.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

Impen should offer bleed damage reduction as well as oblivion damage reduction.

Sure man lets make reduce bleeds and buff heavy.

Also the literal point of oblivion type dmg is that it's true dmg, it deal the exact amount it says and can't be incrased or decreased.

Also impen is used enough.

Rukzadlithau · September 2018

Again, bleeds are not the counter to what heavy passively brings. It‘s the counter to the baseline protection any armor type brings and can be built with (sets like Fortified Brass, Protective/Reinforced trait). Because it ignores resistances it‘s an almost absolute source of damage. In PVP the achievable tooltips on bleed abilities / passives are too high. Special items like Master DW push it from powerful to OP. This is not a problem about Master DW, because nerfing this will ruin it‘s special place in build customisation.

Passive bleeds aren‘t make or break in PVE, proven that almost all highend stam builds use double daggers. The loss of damage from Twin Slashes bleed can be moved to it‘s MITIGATABLE burst component, so a PVE dps loss is excluded and PVP performance is brought in line.

Bleeds in PVP should have their niche and not outperform all current alternatives on Dual wield.

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

„Bleeds are okay because I use them“
- Everybody using Steel Tornado 2018

Minno · October 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Impen should offer bleed damage reduction as well as oblivion damage reduction.

Sure man lets make reduce bleeds and buff heavy.

Also the literal point of oblivion type dmg is that it's true dmg, it deal the exact amount it says and can't be incrased or decreased.

Also impen is used enough.

light armor should get oblivion dmg reduction and crit reduction with the spell resistance

Zeromaz · October 2018

They could (in theory, probably not in practice with their history) make bleed damage scale with armor they’re used against. The higher the armor, the harder the bleed hits. That way its not too OP against light and medium

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Why can one person make a post like this and achieve anything? If you can’t survive 800 dps you need to die. You are vying to destroy werewolf pvp builds and nerf both dks even farther. Do you understand this?

Dashmatt · October 2018

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Why can one person make a post like this and achieve anything? If you can’t survive 800 dps you need to die. You are vying to destroy werewolf pvp builds and nerf both dks even farther. Do you understand this?

A blanket Bleed nerf is a blanket WW nerf. But unlike most nerfs, you can’t just swap out a skill or gear slot and adapt. They would just straight-up lose damage.

If Bleeds are overperforming, the individual sources should be evaluated separately. For example, the WW bleed can’t be stacked with the axe passive, since that passive doesn’t work in WW form. Similarly it can’t be combined with Masters DW.

Not fully convinced that bleeds are actually too strong, but if they are, please don’t forget that werewolves exist.

killimandrosb16_ESO · October 2018

Dashmatt wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Why can one person make a post like this and achieve anything? If you can’t survive 800 dps you need to die. You are vying to destroy werewolf pvp builds and nerf both dks even farther. Do you understand this?

A blanket Bleed nerf is a blanket WW nerf. But unlike most nerfs, you can’t just swap out a skill or gear slot and adapt. They would just straight-up lose damage.

If Bleeds are overperforming, the individual sources should be evaluated separately. For example, the WW bleed can’t be stacked with the axe passive, since that passive doesn’t work in WW form. Similarly it can’t be combined with Masters DW.

Not fully convinced that bleeds are actually too strong, but if they are, please don’t forget that werewolves exist.

They are too strong. If you need to be convinced, dip your toes in mmr bg's.

lucky_dutch · October 2018

Bleeds need to scale with weapon power, making them slightly weaker for heavy armor builds and slightly stronger for medium armor builds.

That way they'll be a counter to heavy armor meta, not an enabler for it.

Zeromaz · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Bleeds need to scale with weapon power, making them slightly weaker for heavy armor builds and slightly stronger for medium armor builds.

That way they'll be a counter to heavy armor meta, not an enabler for it.

Psst* .... they do scale with weapon damage

lucky_dutch · October 2018

Zeromaz wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Bleeds need to scale with weapon power, making them slightly weaker for heavy armor builds and slightly stronger for medium armor builds.

That way they'll be a counter to heavy armor meta, not an enabler for it.

Psst* .... they do scale with weapon damage

A bit but it's pretty flat tbh.

My heavy impreg stam sorc's axe dot hits maybe 100-200 less than my bone pirates/spriggans stamblade's.

ezio45 · October 2018

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

ive got a suggestion on that

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Dashmatt wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Why can one person make a post like this and achieve anything? If you can’t survive 800 dps you need to die. You are vying to destroy werewolf pvp builds and nerf both dks even farther. Do you understand this?

A blanket Bleed nerf is a blanket WW nerf. But unlike most nerfs, you can’t just swap out a skill or gear slot and adapt. They would just straight-up lose damage.

If Bleeds are overperforming, the individual sources should be evaluated separately. For example, the WW bleed can’t be stacked with the axe passive, since that passive doesn’t work in WW form. Similarly it can’t be combined with Masters DW.

Not fully convinced that bleeds are actually too strong, but if they are, please don’t forget that werewolves exist.

Agreed.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

No

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Just no.

Dashmatt · October 2018

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Dashmatt wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Why can one person make a post like this and achieve anything? If you can’t survive 800 dps you need to die. You are vying to destroy werewolf pvp builds and nerf both dks even farther. Do you understand this?

A blanket Bleed nerf is a blanket WW nerf. But unlike most nerfs, you can’t just swap out a skill or gear slot and adapt. They would just straight-up lose damage.

If Bleeds are overperforming, the individual sources should be evaluated separately. For example, the WW bleed can’t be stacked with the axe passive, since that passive doesn’t work in WW form. Similarly it can’t be combined with Masters DW.

Not fully convinced that bleeds are actually too strong, but if they are, please don’t forget that werewolves exist.

They are too strong. If you need to be convinced, dip your toes in mmr bg's.

Most of my death recaps in BGs are multiple Dawnbreakers and Steel Tornado. To quote the movie Predator, “I ain’t got time to bleed.”

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Please someone just remove this guy from the game. Problem solved.

Finedaible · October 2018

Nobody cared/complained about bleeds before this PTS even though nothing has changed with them. A Blackrose weapon which had a small design flaw allowing for scaling bleeds was introduced (and has now been nerfed to deal poison) and suddenly everyone is begging for bleed nerfs left and right. Ironically people have forgotten that Sload's Semblance still exists but "OMG, bleeds! Plz Nerf!..." like wtf?

lucky_dutch · October 2018

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Please someone just remove this guy from the game. Problem solved.

We get it, you disagree. Stop spamming.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Please someone just remove this guy from the game. Problem solved.

We get it, you disagree. Stop spamming.

I don’t care just don’t touch my werewolf. 80 posts are currently speaking louder than my 3.

ezio45 · October 2018

Heres an idea, bleeds are effected by resist but all dots are reduced by battle spirit 25% instead of 50%

the other dot pvp builds are kinda weak

usmguy1234 · October 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If you nerf they by 40% the fact they igmore armour is pointless, better off using other dots.

I like bleeds as they counter the crappy heavy armour meta we have.

Until you have people in heavy with bleeds...

usmguy1234 · October 2018

Stigant wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Well if they're heavy armour i'd consider them a tank anyway.

Could just change bleeds to do bonus dmg vs armour types then? I'm sure zos can do some calculations and change the bonus dmg to heavy to be about the same as it is currently.@Buzo

Or even just give the bleeds flat out % pen

@leepalmer95
Your points are non constructive.
Make bleeds punish one armor type more than others in an explicit way is the worst of „design“ choices.

Yet bleeds already do exactly that. Ignoring all resistances actually punishes HA builds the most since that's what they chose to build for. Obviously bleeds are meant to be the counter to that. It just so happens that ZOS failed terribly in the big picture design choices and gave HA better healing received and HP recovery, so they don't have as much trouble dealig with them as they should.

I'm going to repeat myself here by saying that in every other MMO I played the counter to tank was as effective against every other class/role as against tanks themselves, and that's the way it should be ... if someone builds/chooses class to withstand high amounts of damage, why should someone else be able to deal with it better? If there is a counter to a tank in form of damage bypassing his armor, it should work as well against everyone else, with maybe one exception being healers, having an ability to deal with it better.

When you bleed, you bleed untill stopped, it does not really matter what are you wearing.

It might be useful to make bleeds more effective the higher the armor rating of the opponent you are facing. Just an idea.