Bleed Adjustment for PVP

Rukzadlithau

Bleeds ignore resistances and thus are the 2. most effective source of PVP damage, only being mitigated by Minor/Major Protection (and other % based mitigation) and partially by Critical Resistance. Only Oblivion damage is stronger.

With the adjustments to damage shields, so that they are now takeing resistances into account, already overperformant bleeds will yet again be too commonly (ab)used in PVP.

I think a 33% damage reduction to skill/passive applied bleeds should keep them in check and would keep them „special“ due to their resistance ignoring nature.

/e
The chance to apply passive bleeds could be slightly increased to make up for the „nerf“.

Buzo wrote: »

Twin Slashes tooltip is still too high for an almost unmitigateable source of damage. Bleed damage on it should be reduced. Rending Slashes should lose the snare and have it’s burst damage component increased. Bloodcraze should apply Minor Life Steal ontop of it‘s heal.

The damage loss from Twin Slashes bleed can be moved to the burst component (mitigateable damage) of the Rending Slashes morph, to not affect PvE dps where Npc‘s usually are penetrated to 0 anyways.

leepalmer95

If you nerf they by 40% the fact they igmore armour is pointless, better off using other dots.


I like bleeds as they counter the crappy heavy armour meta we have.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Rukzadlithau

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If you nerf they by 40% the fact they igmore armour is pointless, better off using other dots.


I like bleeds as they counter the crappy heavy armour meta we have.

How exactly is using other dot‘s better against builds that specifically build on resistances for example? And let‘s say it gets reduced by 33% a 9000 Bloodcraze tooltip will now deal ~6000 damage and can still be elevated to 10500 by the flat increase from Master DW.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Bleeds are mainly used by heavy armor builds with high damage.

idk

The first issue with reducing the damage of bleeds is it makes those same skills pretty useless in PvE. There is that half of the game.

So the answer is to only reduce their damage in PvP. To that, it is clear Zos does not want to create different rules for skills in PvP vs PvE. They have stated that much very clearly.

Rukzadlithau

idk wrote: »

The first issue with reducing the damage of bleeds is it makes those same skills pretty useless in PvE. There is that half of the game.

So the answer is to only reduce their damage in PvP. To that, it is clear Zos does not want to create different rules for skills in PvP vs PvE. They have stated that much very clearly.

Again, the targetted reductions puts this nowhere near „uselessness“ wether in PVE and especially not in PVP. The potential DPS loss in PVE could be dampened by furtherly increasing the direct damage portion on the Twin Slashes morph for example.

GreenSoup2HoT

I would just remove the bleed from axes and battle axes and change it to something else. Give it crit damage. Then we have an option to kill light armor targets. We shouldnt have 2 weapon types designed to kill tanks.

Crixus8000

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If you nerf they by 40% the fact they igmore armour is pointless, better off using other dots.


I like bleeds as they counter the crappy heavy armour meta we have.

We have heavy armor meta because there is so much overpowered damage like bleeds in pvp right now (and medium could do with losing the stealth passive and getting someone decent tbh) And they counter everything, it's not like they are doing 0 damage to me if i go medium, at least in heavy I get some extra healing recieved to counter them a small bit more.

And the funny thing is that bleeds work best in tanky heavy armor setups, because their damage is so stupidly strong and also basically free that people can focus on survivability, be very tanky and still get huge damage/sustain from using bleeds.

idk

Buzo wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The first issue with reducing the damage of bleeds is it makes those same skills pretty useless in PvE. There is that half of the game.

So the answer is to only reduce their damage in PvP. To that, it is clear Zos does not want to create different rules for skills in PvP vs PvE. They have stated that much very clearly.

Again, the targetted reductions puts this nowhere near „uselessness“ wether in PVE and especially not in PVP. The potential DPS loss in PVE could be dampened by furtherly increasing the direct damage portion on the Twin Slashes morph for example.

It is easy to say your suggestion would not make bleed skills useless in PvE but that does not make it so. In PvE DPS is based on total damage per action and reducing that number by a decent percentage for any skill reduces it's effectiveness.

You are speaking of a 33-40% reduction in damage which is very significant and would likely make any skill unworthy of being used in PvE, let alone bleeds.

crazy_catman21

Bleeds aren’t even op, master daggers make them over the top.

brandonv516

Bleeds are an issue. A heavy armor stamina build can make themselves just as tank-like as the tanks they are trying to take down but the bleeds will win the fight.

Once the bleeds do their magic along with a bit of burst, it's Steel Tornado for the finish.

Seen this play out a hundred times the same way. These builds have it good right now but their time will come.

leepalmer95

brandonv516 wrote: »

Bleeds are an issue. A heavy armor stamina build can make themselves just as tank-like as the tanks they are trying to take down but the bleeds will win the fight.

Once the bleeds do their magic along with a bit of burst, it's Steel Tornado for the finish.

Seen this play out a hundred times the same way. These builds have it good right now but their time will come.

Well if they're heavy armour i'd consider them a tank anyway.

Could just change bleeds to do bonus dmg vs armour types then? I'm sure zos can do some calculations and change the bonus dmg to heavy to be about the same as it is currently.@Buzo

Or even just give the bleeds flat out % pen

Nerftheforums

Instead of making bleeds *** and ask for nerfs, why not ask for a change? Rather, let's have bleed ignore a % of armour so that they deal more damage to HA builds and less to medium/light armor builds.

Rukzadlithau

crazy_catman21 wrote: »

Bleeds aren’t even op, master daggers make them over the top.

@crazy_catman21
In PVP it‘s the axes.
Twin Slashes tooltip is too strong already, Master DW just makes it absurd with a flat increase. The base tooltip of the skill and the passives is what pushes it from powerful to overpowered. Master DW should push this from good to powerful, as it‘s hard to aquire and would keep it‘s special place in build utilisation. A 33% tooltip reduction still keeps Bleeds a good and unique, easy and efficent option in PVP.

idk wrote: »

It is easy to say your suggestion would not make bleed skills useless in PvE but that does not make it so. In PvE DPS is based on total damage per action and reducing that number by a decent percentage for any skill reduces it's effectiveness.

You are speaking of a 33-40% reduction in damage which is very significant and would likely make any skill unworthy of being used in PvE, let alone bleeds.

@idk
Yep this damage „per action“ totally can‘t be substitued, by increasing the direct damage portion of Rending Slashes. Reducing the bleed from 9000 to 6000 damage and moving these 3000 damage to the burst component of the skill is not possible.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Well if they're heavy armour i'd consider them a tank anyway.

Could just change bleeds to do bonus dmg vs armour types then? I'm sure zos can do some calculations and change the bonus dmg to heavy to be about the same as it is currently.@Buzo

Or even just give the bleeds flat out % pen

@leepalmer95
Your points are non constructive.
Make bleeds punish one armor type more than others in an explicit way is the worst of „design“ choices.

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Instead of making bleeds *** and ask for nerfs, why not ask for a change? Rather, let's have bleed ignore a % of armour so that they deal more damage to HA builds and less to medium/light armor builds.

@Nerftheforums
Because this can already be simulated with dot‘s and maces. Bleed having it‘s unique nature is a good thing and creates build diversity. The problem is the tooltips of Twin Slashes / Twin Blade & Blunt / Heavy Weapons.

Rukzadlithau

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I would just remove the bleed from axes and battle axes and change it to something else. Give it crit damage. Then we have an option to kill light armor targets. We shouldnt have 2 weapon types designed to kill tanks.

@GreenSoup2HoT
Good proposal, but Twin Slashes tooltip is still too high for an almost unmitigateable source of damage. Bleed damage on it should be reduced. Rending Slashes should lose the snare and have it’s burst damage component increased. Bloodcraze should apply Minor Life Steal ontop of it‘s heal.

Zoal_AUG

who gives a "adds word here" about shields

antihero727

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Instead of making bleeds *** and ask for nerfs, why not ask for a change? Rather, let's have bleed ignore a % of armour so that they deal more damage to HA builds and less to medium/light armor builds.

Great, that’s all the lag needs is more calculations. People wonder why you get 5-disconnect FPS in a bigger fight, here it is in a sweet roll. Some of these sets have almost a paragraph explaining their 5th bonus. I miss a simpler less server stressful time when we could play at 30-50fps in big fights.

NBrookus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Bleeds are an issue. A heavy armor stamina build can make themselves just as tank-like as the tanks they are trying to take down but the bleeds will win the fight.

Once the bleeds do their magic along with a bit of burst, it's Steel Tornado for the finish.

Seen this play out a hundred times the same way. These builds have it good right now but their time will come.

Well if they're heavy armour i'd consider them a tank anyway.

Could just change bleeds to do bonus dmg vs armour types then? I'm sure zos can do some calculations and change the bonus dmg to heavy to be about the same as it is currently.@Buzo

Or even just give the bleeds flat out % pen

You can build pretty tanky without heavy now, with CP and protective and the sets available. Making bleeds really only work against heavy armor would just shift the meta to tanky medium plus heavy damage set (Fury, etc.) and we're back to square one.

I'd like to see bleed damage scale to inversely physical resistance, so it actually does counter heavy tank builds but has a tradeoff. Right now there's no downside to running bleeds because they work equally effectively versus all builds.

leepalmer95

Buzo wrote: »

crazy_catman21 wrote: »

Bleeds aren’t even op, master daggers make them over the top.

@crazy_catman21
In PVP it‘s the axes.
Twin Slashes tooltip is too strong already, Master DW just makes it absurd with a flat increase. The base tooltip of the skill and the passives is what pushes it from powerful to overpowered. Master DW should push this from good to powerful, as it‘s hard to aquire and would keep it‘s special place in build utilisation. A 33% tooltip reduction still keeps Bleeds a good and unique, easy and efficent option in PVP.

idk wrote: »

It is easy to say your suggestion would not make bleed skills useless in PvE but that does not make it so. In PvE DPS is based on total damage per action and reducing that number by a decent percentage for any skill reduces it's effectiveness.

You are speaking of a 33-40% reduction in damage which is very significant and would likely make any skill unworthy of being used in PvE, let alone bleeds.

@idk
Yep this damage „per action“ totally can‘t be substitued, by increasing the direct damage portion of Rending Slashes. Reducing the bleed from 9000 to 6000 damage and moving these 3000 damage to the burst component of the skill is not possible.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Well if they're heavy armour i'd consider them a tank anyway.

Could just change bleeds to do bonus dmg vs armour types then? I'm sure zos can do some calculations and change the bonus dmg to heavy to be about the same as it is currently.@Buzo

Or even just give the bleeds flat out % pen

@leepalmer95
Your points are non constructive.
Make bleeds punish one armor type more than others in an explicit way is the worst of „design“ choices.

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Instead of making bleeds *** and ask for nerfs, why not ask for a change? Rather, let's have bleed ignore a % of armour so that they deal more damage to HA builds and less to medium/light armor builds.

@Nerftheforums
Because this can already be simulated with dot‘s and maces. Bleed having it‘s unique nature is a good thing and creates build diversity. The problem is the tooltips of Twin Slashes / Twin Blade & Blunt / Heavy Weapons.

Why not heavy doesn't have any other counter.

Minno

The only change would be buff Impen traits a tad so less people don't have to ride the trans/impreg wave (or add crit resistance to battlespirit for the newer players/older players looking for build freedom).

Otherwise, you all have entirely too little crit resists+percentage based mitigation and not enough hots.

greenmachine

The nerf cries just never stop around here. What will you all whine about when everything is nerfed beyond all recognition and we're all hitting for 1 on every attack?

leepalmer95

Minno wrote: »

The only change would be buff Impen traits a tad so less people don't have to ride the trans/impreg wave (or add crit resistance to battlespirit for the newer players/older players looking for build freedom).

Otherwise, you all have entirely too little crit resists+percentage based mitigation and not enough hots.

Yeah the game needs people to be more tanky in pvp, it's not like most people are all in heavy already and run 25-30k hp min....

/s

brandonv516

greenmachine wrote: »

The nerf cries just never stop around here. What will you all whine about when everything is nerfed beyond all recognition and we're all hitting for 1 on every attack?

That we should only be hitting for .5 on every attack. 1 is too OP.

greenmachine

brandonv516 wrote: »

greenmachine wrote: »

The nerf cries just never stop around here. What will you all whine about when everything is nerfed beyond all recognition and we're all hitting for 1 on every attack?

That we should only be hitting for .5 on every attack. 1 is too OP.

The nerf-mongers will bring peace to Nirn at last!

Minno

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

The only change would be buff Impen traits a tad so less people don't have to ride the trans/impreg wave (or add crit resistance to battlespirit for the newer players/older players looking for build freedom).

Otherwise, you all have entirely too little crit resists+percentage based mitigation and not enough hots.

Yeah the game needs people to be more tanky in pvp, it's not like most people are all in heavy already and run 25-30k hp min....

/s

I think the argument for impen on battlespirit is that you can move off those traits and pick up divines with dmg mundas without harming your crit resists.

And I wasn't very clear in my last statement; I meant that bleeds are fine. It's just that people aren't building enough crit resists/other mitigation into their builds to avoid the armor negating nature of bleeds.

Ender1310

Bleeds require mele so does ww. Very effective in keeps/towers humping not effective at all in open world siege. Only balance issue I can see is bgs. Probably op there. But other specs can be effective in bgs so...

Rukzadlithau

@leepalmer95

Your heavy armor trauma makes you come up with theories that drift away from „balance“. If you look for something that punishes heavy for it‘s signature - that‘s maces. Maybe you forgot different options still exist, because as of right now it‘s so comfortable for everybody to use axes.

You market bleed as a heavy armor counter, yet it‘s mainly used by heavy armor builds, and affects every armor type the same mitigation wise

The_Camper

Buzo wrote: »

Good proposal, but Twin Slashes tooltip is still too high for an almost unmitigateable source of damage. Bleed damage on it should be reduced. Rending Slashes should lose the snare and have it’s burst damage component increased. Bloodcraze should apply Minor Life Steal ontop of it‘s heal.

the BLEED damage on twin slashes is affected by battle spirit and is being reduced by the target resistances. Every single skill that has BLEED damage written on it is being affected by battle spirit and resistances.

Rukzadlithau

The_Camper wrote: »

the BLEED damage on twin slashes is affected by battle spirit and is being reduced by the target resistances. Every single skill that has BLEED damage written on it is being affected by battle spirit and resistances.

The BLEED is not reduced by resistances. Every damage except Oblivion is „mitigated“ by Battle Spirit. What BLEED does and why it‘s problematic in PVP for several patches now and alarming for the upcoming patch, is explained in my first post.

Stigant

Buzo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Well if they're heavy armour i'd consider them a tank anyway.

Could just change bleeds to do bonus dmg vs armour types then? I'm sure zos can do some calculations and change the bonus dmg to heavy to be about the same as it is currently.@Buzo

Or even just give the bleeds flat out % pen

@leepalmer95
Your points are non constructive.
Make bleeds punish one armor type more than others in an explicit way is the worst of „design“ choices.

Yet bleeds already do exactly that. Ignoring all resistances actually punishes HA builds the most since that's what they chose to build for. Obviously bleeds are meant to be the counter to that. It just so happens that ZOS failed terribly in the big picture design choices and gave HA better healing received and HP recovery, so they don't have as much trouble dealig with them as they should.

I'm going to repeat myself here by saying that in every other MMO I played the counter to tank was as effective against every other class/role as against tanks themselves, and that's the way it should be ... if someone builds/chooses class to withstand high amounts of damage, why should someone else be able to deal with it better? If there is a counter to a tank in form of damage bypassing his armor, it should work as well against everyone else, with maybe one exception being healers, having an ability to deal with it better.

When you bleed, you bleed untill stopped, it does not really matter what are you wearing.

Ragnarock41

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.