Bleed Adjustment for PVP

Bitmun

Minno wrote: »

The only change would be buff Impen traits a tad so less people don't have to ride the trans/impreg wave (or add crit resistance to battlespirit for the newer players/older players looking for build freedom).

Otherwise, you all have entirely too little crit resists+percentage based mitigation and not enough hots.

This! Cool idea!

IlCanis_LupuslI

Buzo wrote: »

Bleeds ignore resistances and thus are the 2. most effective source of PVP damage, only being mitigated by Minor/Major Protection (and other % based mitigation) and partially by Critical Resistance. Only Oblivion damage is stronger.

With the adjustments to damage shields, so that they are now takeing resistances into account, already overperformant bleeds will yet again be too commonly (ab)used in PVP.

I think a 33% damage reduction to skill/passive applied bleeds should keep them in check and would keep them „special“ due to their resistance ignoring nature.

/e
The chance to apply passive bleeds could be slightly increased to make up for the „nerf“.

Buzo wrote: »

Twin Slashes tooltip is still too high for an almost unmitigateable source of damage. Bleed damage on it should be reduced. Rending Slashes should lose the snare and have it’s burst damage component increased. Bloodcraze should apply Minor Life Steal ontop of it‘s heal.

The damage loss from Twin Slashes bleed can be moved to the burst component (mitigateable damage) of the Rending Slashes morph, to not affect PvE dps where Npc‘s usually are penetrated to 0 anyways.

Bleed builds = Very good im duells or for Xvs1ing but crap for Open world where your burst window is much more limited....
Only people who are posing in Alikir and Auridon use them, in open world burst is king not DoTs..

Skander

Pve mobs don't have resistences right?

Just get bleeds to not go trought them then.

Fixed for pvp and pve

Mihael

what really makes bleed build over the top is the master duel wield axes there is no reason why someone wearing 2 heavy armor sets should be able to do a ton of damage with a simple heavy attack into a blood craze, either adjust them or nerf them but people should not be rewarded for playing such a lazy play style.

Ragnarock41

Mihael wrote: »

what really makes bleed build over the top is the master duel wield axes there is no reason why someone wearing 2 heavy armor sets should be able to do a ton of damage with a simple heavy attack into a blood craze, either adjust them or nerf them but people should not be rewarded for playing such a lazy play style.

master dw bonus equals to so little of the total bleed damage.If an extra dot was a problem, vMA 2h would also be a problem.

Kanar

Mihael wrote: »

what really makes bleed build over the top is the master duel wield axes there is no reason why someone wearing 2 heavy armor sets should be able to do a ton of damage with a simple heavy attack into a blood craze, either adjust them or nerf them but people should not be rewarded for playing such a lazy play style.

At least HA, blood craze requires targetting to hit. If you want to nerf over performing, no-skill combos then take a look at shalks, spin2win, dbos + hurricane (oops all those skills will proc axe bleeds too).

dagonbeer

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

what really makes bleed build over the top is the master duel wield axes there is no reason why someone wearing 2 heavy armor sets should be able to do a ton of damage with a simple heavy attack into a blood craze, either adjust them or nerf them but people should not be rewarded for playing such a lazy play style.

master dw bonus equals to so little of the total bleed damage.If an extra dot was a problem, vMA 2h would also be a problem.

On a HA user (particularly before they get their fury stacks up, or if 7th/veiled haven't procc'ed) master dw pretty much doubles the damage from rending slashes. Since it ignores resistances and can crit, it's the strongest proc set out there, and there's no counterplay. VMA 2h is a joke compared to it.

Ragnarock41

dagonbeer wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

what really makes bleed build over the top is the master duel wield axes there is no reason why someone wearing 2 heavy armor sets should be able to do a ton of damage with a simple heavy attack into a blood craze, either adjust them or nerf them but people should not be rewarded for playing such a lazy play style.

master dw bonus equals to so little of the total bleed damage.If an extra dot was a problem, vMA 2h would also be a problem.

On a HA user (particularly before they get their fury stacks up, or if 7th/veiled haven't procc'ed) master dw pretty much doubles the damage from rending slashes. Since it ignores resistances and can crit, it's the strongest proc set out there, and there's no counterplay. VMA 2h is a joke compared to it.

It only adds a flat value to it, that does not mean ''double damage''. Though yes, It adds a considerable amount to the total damage.
This is how some builds reach like 3k blood craze ticks.
Its only the strongest proc set only because bleeds in general ignore resistances fix that and it wouldn't be a problem at all.

Zelos

This is not only a pvp issue thats why zos will not change it likely. That would hit PvE in a big way making stamina even more less viable and more groups will just choose Magicka dps over stamina dps.

Ragnarock41

Zelos wrote: »

This is not only a pvp issue thats why zos will not change it likely. That would hit PvE in a big way making stamina even more less viable and more groups will just choose Magicka dps over stamina dps.

Stamina needs a buff when it comes to accessing penetration anyways. LA gets it literally for free. the nerfing of sharpened and spriggan affected stamina penetration builds in a very negative way.

usmcjdking

I think Heavy Weapons and TB&B bleeds are fine, but Twin Slashes and Cleave are not. Increase their base damage by 15-20% and make them straight physical DOTs like DW Ulti. This retains it's PVE strength (and actually should increase it for stam in general) while helping deal with some of the complete stupidity of bleeds in PVP.

Tonturri

Just make bleeds only ignore a percentage of resistances. 25-50%. ZOS really needs to stop making 100% hard counters.

IZZEFlameLash

Reducing the Master's Axe bonus to 500 would still make it useful while slightly decreasing the free proc tick from 2H and DW passives. Atm, axes are just too BiS, really making other weapon types undesirable.

NBrookus

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

This is not only a pvp issue thats why zos will not change it likely. That would hit PvE in a big way making stamina even more less viable and more groups will just choose Magicka dps over stamina dps.

Stamina needs a buff when it comes to accessing penetration anyways. LA gets it literally for free. the nerfing of sharpened and spriggan affected stamina penetration builds in a very negative way.

Virtually every player has higher spell resist, though. Penetration and resist have to be looked at together.

Ragnarock41

NBrookus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

This is not only a pvp issue thats why zos will not change it likely. That would hit PvE in a big way making stamina even more less viable and more groups will just choose Magicka dps over stamina dps.

Stamina needs a buff when it comes to accessing penetration anyways. LA gets it literally for free. the nerfing of sharpened and spriggan affected stamina penetration builds in a very negative way.

Virtually every player has higher spell resist, though. Penetration and resist have to be looked at together.

how so? as far as I know DK has a 3k spell resist passive and thats about it for the cases of having higher spell resist.

I know light armor also gives spell resist but thats a different story.

NBrookus

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

This is not only a pvp issue thats why zos will not change it likely. That would hit PvE in a big way making stamina even more less viable and more groups will just choose Magicka dps over stamina dps.

Stamina needs a buff when it comes to accessing penetration anyways. LA gets it literally for free. the nerfing of sharpened and spriggan affected stamina penetration builds in a very negative way.

Virtually every player has higher spell resist, though. Penetration and resist have to be looked at together.

how so? as far as I know DK has a 3k spell resist passive and thats about it for the cases of having higher spell resist.

I know light armor also gives spell resist but thats a different story.

Templars have a spell resist passive
Light armor has a spell resist passive
Breton has a spell resist passive
Dragonknights have a spell resist passive

"Virtually every players" was hyperbole, but as far as I know there are no racial, class or armor buffs that specifically increase physical resists only.

Savos_Saren

I propose that ZOS makes a magicka-based version of bleeds. One that ignores all spell resistance.

Currently, in order to defeat a heavy armored enemy- you can apply bleeds... but that only helps out stamina-based characters.

I bet if magicka-based players suddenly could ignore all spell resistances- you'd see a lot of bleed defenders (who are usually stamina-based players) start ranting about magicka bleeds being OP.

umagon

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I propose that ZOS makes a magicka-based version of bleeds. One that ignores all spell resistance.

Currently, in order to defeat a heavy armored enemy- you can apply bleeds... but that only helps out stamina-based characters.

I bet if magicka-based players suddenly could ignore all spell resistances- you'd see a lot of bleed defenders (who are usually stamina-based players) start ranting about magicka bleeds being OP.

Magicka already has that with oblivion damage. I am not taking sides just saying it already exists. Knight slayer for example is magicka set, just not used much.

Feanor

umagon wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I propose that ZOS makes a magicka-based version of bleeds. One that ignores all spell resistance.

Currently, in order to defeat a heavy armored enemy- you can apply bleeds... but that only helps out stamina-based characters.

I bet if magicka-based players suddenly could ignore all spell resistances- you'd see a lot of bleed defenders (who are usually stamina-based players) start ranting about magicka bleeds being OP.

Magicka already has that with oblivion damage. I am not taking sides just saying it already exists. Knight slayer for example is magicka set, just not used much.

Well. 8% of max health as damage cap and a fully charged heavy attack are pretty severe restrictions which make Knight Slayer quite suboptimal. If you had an Oblivion damage DoT that ticks for 2k to 3k per second you’d pretty much see everyone in flames about it.

umagon

Feanor wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I propose that ZOS makes a magicka-based version of bleeds. One that ignores all spell resistance.

Currently, in order to defeat a heavy armored enemy- you can apply bleeds... but that only helps out stamina-based characters.

I bet if magicka-based players suddenly could ignore all spell resistances- you'd see a lot of bleed defenders (who are usually stamina-based players) start ranting about magicka bleeds being OP.

Magicka already has that with oblivion damage. I am not taking sides just saying it already exists. Knight slayer for example is magicka set, just not used much.

Well. 8% of max health as damage cap and a fully charged heavy attack are pretty severe restrictions which make Knight Slayer quite suboptimal. If you had an Oblivion damage DoT that ticks for 2k to 3k per second you’d pretty much see everyone in flames about it.

Knight slayer is designed like all others sets to work injunction with other sets. It’s only “suboptimal” in builds that don’t complement it. Oblivion damage can’t be avoided. Bleed's damage can be lowered by champ points, damage reduction modifiers like major protection and critical resistance.

Nicko_Lps

Bleeds are fine.

Shields was OP and we took a good care of it.


I vote for 2x stronger bleeds now that cyrodiil will be full of wardentanks in murk.

Savos_Saren

umagon wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I propose that ZOS makes a magicka-based version of bleeds. One that ignores all spell resistance.

Currently, in order to defeat a heavy armored enemy- you can apply bleeds... but that only helps out stamina-based characters.

I bet if magicka-based players suddenly could ignore all spell resistances- you'd see a lot of bleed defenders (who are usually stamina-based players) start ranting about magicka bleeds being OP.

Magicka already has that with oblivion damage. I am not taking sides just saying it already exists. Knight slayer for example is magicka set, just not used much.

@umagon
That's actually a common misconception. Oblivion Damage is not the magicka-based version of a bleed.

Bleeds ignore all physical resistance.
Oblivion damage is unmitigated damage.
Nothing ignores all spell resistance.

So, we're constantly stuck in a conundrum where stamina-based characters can run bleeds and oblivion damage to take out tankier enemies. Whereas magicka-based characters cannot run their version of "bleeds" and oblivion damage.

Also, there are both magicka and stamina based sets that deal oblivion damage. Knightslayer (magic), Shieldbreaker (stamina) and Sload (magic or stamina).

umagon

Savos_Saren wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I propose that ZOS makes a magicka-based version of bleeds. One that ignores all spell resistance.

Currently, in order to defeat a heavy armored enemy- you can apply bleeds... but that only helps out stamina-based characters.

I bet if magicka-based players suddenly could ignore all spell resistances- you'd see a lot of bleed defenders (who are usually stamina-based players) start ranting about magicka bleeds being OP.

Magicka already has that with oblivion damage. I am not taking sides just saying it already exists. Knight slayer for example is magicka set, just not used much.

@umagon
That's actually a common misconception. Oblivion Damage is not the magicka-based version of a bleed.

Bleeds ignore all physical resistance.
Oblivion damage is unmitigated damage.
Nothing ignores all spell resistance.

So, we're constantly stuck in a conundrum where stamina-based characters can run bleeds and oblivion damage to take out tankier enemies. Whereas magicka-based characters cannot run their version of "bleeds" and oblivion damage.

Also, there are both magicka and stamina based sets that deal oblivion damage. Knightslayer (magic), Shieldbreaker (stamina) and Sload (magic or stamina).

If ignores spell resistance then it ignores spell resistance and already exists. Oblivion damage is bleed damage plus more so it serves the same function as a “spell version” of a bleed. Bleed ignores block and physical resistance. Oblivion damage ignores block, spell resistance, and everything else.

A stam player using bleeds would not need oblivion damage. Using shield breaker, slayer or sloads would comprise the damage output. Stam builds using bleeds and oblivion damage is not as effective as it sounds; because to increase one output the other suffers. And the only small advantage oblivion damage would give to those builds would be against damage reduction modifiers.

Skoomah

There are so many counters to bleeds.

Speed - Can you stack the dots fast enough as opponent speeds away?

LOS - Can you stack the dots fast enough as the opponent turns the corner for the tree or rock?

Healing - Is your dot stacking potent enough to outheal the opponents passive and burst heals?

Damage - Is your dot stacking potent enough to out damage the opponent’s direct damage burst combo?

Purge / Cloak - Did you do enough damage before the opponent cleansed all your dots or cloaks away? Did you apply enough damage before 2/5 (40%) of the PvP population cloaked, cleansed, healed to full and didnt take dot damage?

You want to have a competitive bleed build? You gotta commit to a dot style build. And if you want to get the kill, you gotta make sure your combo (more than one skill) lands.

lucky_dutch

Skoomah wrote: »

There are so many counters to bleeds.

Speed - Can you stack the dots fast enough as opponent speeds away?

LOS - Can you stack the dots fast enough as the opponent turns the corner for the tree or rock?

Healing - Is your dot stacking potent enough to outheal the opponents passive and burst heals?

Damage - Is your dot stacking potent enough to out damage the opponent’s direct damage burst combo?

Purge / Cloak - Did you do enough damage before the opponent cleansed all your dots or cloaks away? Did you apply enough damage before 2/5 (40%) of the PvP population cloaked, cleansed, healed to full and didnt take dot damage?

You want to have a competitive bleed build? You gotta commit to a dot style build. And if you want to get the kill, you gotta make sure your combo (more than one skill) lands.

Bleeds by themselves, not a problem.

Bleeds proccing Weapon enchants even when that weapon is on the back bar is genuinely game-breaking.

You can apply bleeds with DW, swap to a 2h Axe and you will have near 100% uptime on all 3 Weapon enchants. It’s outrageously OP.

Galalin

Skoomah wrote: »

There are so many counters to bleeds.

Speed - Can you stack the dots fast enough as opponent speeds away?

LOS - Can you stack the dots fast enough as the opponent turns the corner for the tree or rock?

Healing - Is your dot stacking potent enough to outheal the opponents passive and burst heals?

Damage - Is your dot stacking potent enough to out damage the opponent’s direct damage burst combo?

Purge / Cloak - Did you do enough damage before the opponent cleansed all your dots or cloaks away? Did you apply enough damage before 2/5 (40%) of the PvP population cloaked, cleansed, healed to full and didnt take dot damage?

You want to have a competitive bleed build? You gotta commit to a dot style build. And if you want to get the kill, you gotta make sure your combo (more than one skill) lands.

The funny thing is almost everything you listed is used by the bleed builds

Derra

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Heavy armor builds with high damage are the primary users of bleeds though - i´d argue that nerfing bleeds would also weaken those builds significantly.

Checkmath

Did you guys already get to the point, where you included infused weapon enchants into the math proccing from rending slashes?

dagonbeer

Well I know lots of people missed slotting dw for mag builds after ancient knowledge changes, now it'll be mandatory for everyone to run rending. Balance and counter play!

lucky_dutch

Checkmath wrote: »

Did you guys already get to the point, where you included infused weapon enchants into the math proccing from rending slashes?

I’ve tried pointing it out but most of the community are currently still in blissful ignorance as to how utterly broken that is.

Wait till they start seeing kill feeds where every other damage source is a enchant proc