Animation Cancelling- the reason I don't play regularly anymore.

MashmalloMan · September 2018

It's an extra button, your already pressing buttons, press more buttons if you want the extra damage. This is such a minimal issue. ZOS put it in their game, you can play without the mechanic, but it's designed in nature to increase the amount of dmg potential 1 has. If you choose to not use it, find other ways to play instead of claiming its an exploit or that it should be removed.

It has nothing to do with elitism. This is a video game. Step back a moment and ask yourself what you are arguing about. The people who don't want to light attack weave don't need to do it, but how is it fair to ask for the removal of a core mechanic of the game. If you don't find it fun or entertaining, make a build that doesn't need it. I find it fun. I find it entertaining so I take advantage of that mechanic. This isn't street fighter, it isn't as difficult as it seems. I use a controller and can self-buff parse above 40k on a stam sorc which has almost 0 debuffs/buffs.

For example:

If I look at my parse on PTS that I got 46k with using relequen/selene/ravager/vma bow and removing light attacks (5kdps) and relequen (6.2k dps). You're left with 34k dps, give or take as well the fact that you lose uptime on some enchants (weapon skills proc enchants so not too much) maybe I'd have 28-32k dps and this is cutting out relequen. You could simply use sets that benefit less from using light attacks and buff all your skills as a whole instead.

At the end of the day, you don't need a set amount of dps for content, but you have to understand that you become weaker as a dd and even tank/healer by choosing to opt out of using light attacks. In a game where you are working with other players you are hurting other peoples experience and expecting them to carry you. Most Vet pug group tank/healers will be happy if their dps both break 20k and with my example above, you can do that. If you complete a solid rotation without light attacks and have the proper gear. You can achieve that easily.

Vet HM trials require higher dps for a reason, they are the hardest content in the game. They are built as the most challenging content requiring 12 players to coordinate together. It is even more upsetting to think someone who doesn't want to light attack would want to hinder the experience of 11 other players. So many sets in the game can be obtained from normal mode, you don't even need to set foot in a vet hm trial which is where the dps restrictions are required.

Its a contradiction to want to complete the hardest content in the game without investing your time in to making yourself strong enough to complete the hardest content in the game by avoiding a core mechanic. Pressing "light attack -> skill -> pause" is easy enough for most people. If you prefer to avoid it and pressing "skill -> pause -> skill -> pause" is somehow more interesting to you. Play that way but I don't find that more interesting.

I don't like fishing, but guess what, I want the artaeum takeaway broth recipe. Looks like I can either fish and try to get it or I go on the forums and complain for fishing to be removed. Artaeum takeaway broth is the best stam food in the game, but I'm required to do something I don't like to get it. Sound familiar? There are other options though, a similar drink - dubious cameron throne is available simply from guild shops. If I really don't feel like fishing to get what I want, I can still use the alternative.

This is a small comparison and I'm sure it can be nitpicked apart, obviously vet trials and dps requirements are different, but there is tons of options in the game for people who don't enjoy 1 aspect. Also kinda silly that food is only available through fishing, but meh, I'm fine with it. There are tons of examples like this like pvp skills required in pve or vise versa. It's game design choice to spread the player base out to try different aspects of their game they wouldn't normally try and when you think of it in that way, I respect and support the decision. In the early years of the game I avoided pvp until I realized how awesome caltrops was, tried pvp out to get the skill and soon fell in love with pvp.

Some people like fishing, some people like light attack weaving. Light attack weaving is not an exploit. PERIOD. It is in the game design and it is tied to a CD the same way skills are so you can't use a macro to avoid that CD anyway. The macro would just help you hit the CD precisely on time which is seriously not necessary. In this game you can press a skill when it's on CD and it will cast it once the CD is over. There is a very forgiving system in place.

I find quests boring so I avoid the optional ones. I find fishing boring, so I don't do it. Don't play something that doesn't make you happy. If light attacks are a core component of the game but it hinders your experience to weave them, find another ways to enjoy the game. Taking something away from other players is never the answer.

TLDR: Play your way and the way that makes you happy. There are plenty of options available. Weaving is one for increasing your dps potential and it's not as large as people lead you to believe, choose sets that compliment your playstyle. It's less of a requirement for tanks/healers. This is a community based game. Asking for a core mechanic to be removed is simply unrealistic and many like myself enjoy it. Understand ZOS's design decision.

shiningforce · September 2018

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Meh massive l2p issue OP, sounds like you have rubbish gear/rubbish rotation, rubbish everything, and you want ani cancelling gone, how about you get gone, or git gud.

This is your answer for pretty much any topic, I have read you type this so many times in so many posts, yet it holds very little merit. It also doesnt look well on you mate.

XiDiabolismiX · September 2018

The most frustrating thing to me is the fact that almost every persons argument on “animation cancelling” is that it’s an “exploit”...

Do you guys understand that with global cooldowns, animation cancelling has faded out almost completely. It use to be a way for skilled players to maximize their dps output, but that has changed and it will not increase your dps as much as you are arguing it does in today’s gameplay.

There are however techniques to maximize your dps that are quite simple:

1.) bar swapping. Literally just press the bar swap button after you cast the last skill on your current bar.. this is extremely easy to do and if you are unable to do this then you need to practice more instead of complaining.

2.) light attacking between every skill, otherwise known as weaving. This is an intended feature since the inception of the game (light, medium, heavy attacks). You just press the light attack button and a skill of your preference directly after.

I promise you that those two very simple and easily achievable techniques will net you more dps than performing a bunch of old, outdated “animation cancelling” techniques such as block cancelling, etc..

I also notice that some of you are using the handicap argument, and I’m sorry, but that is just not enough of a reason to change an entire games core mechanics to cater to your needs. It sounds harsh but it is what it is. Find a different game that you can play to the best of your ability due to your situation.

Stigant · September 2018

I like those entertaining threads like this ... always reminds me of some PvE casual guildies, conplaining about that in our voice while block canceling their jabs to block some big hit from a monster or bash canceling their tornado spam to interrupt the healing NPC in dungeon, not to mention swap canceling their caltrops toss, explaining how it's the reason why they don't PvP because of this exploit.

Would very much like to see them one day locked into their animation and complaining how clunky the combat is since the mechanics was 'fixed

Wake up people ...

Edit: typos

shiningforce · September 2018

ah well

ZeroXFF · September 2018

I'll say the same thing I said in any thread about it... Put LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works right now (at least until Murkmire) and Mend Wounds. Adjust the gear and skills that assume you'll be weaving to assume you'll use them as a spammable. And shorten all long animations to match the GCD to make block cancelling unnecessary in a DPS rotation when you don't actually have to block (Endless Hail would be the biggest offender here). Make bar swap have no cooldown and make it a client side action, since skills are on the GCD anyways and having bar swap client side would make the game more responsive too, make it feel more "fast paced" which is what the pro-animation cancelling people argue for. Keep the rest as is (block cancelling to block, roll cancelling to get out of red etc) since it won't affect actual DPS output, but is necessary to keep the game responsive.

This would really make the game feel less broken, while still keeping it as quick and responsive as it is now. This really is the best solution to the problem.

TL;DR:
1. Put light attacks on the same GCD as skills and treat them as spammables when designing around them.
2. Shorten long animations to make animation cancelling not affect DPS output.
3. Make bar swap a client side action to preserve (and enhance) the fast pace feeling.

Volckodav · September 2018

mocap wrote: »

dude, you don't even try it, right?
press skill, then press a light attack, then press another skill, then light attack. It's ridiculously simple.

depends on your ping, for unlucky guys like me that have +250 ping as average (with bigger spike) this is simply not working.
LA or skills do not fire at all lot of time.

After not an excuse, you can always find workaround, in that case for example bar sap still work good for animation cancelling, bash a litle less but still good.

So not criticism but just to pint out that this is not as easy for everyone as it should be, really, unfortunately.

Rungar · September 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I'll say the same thing I said in any thread about it... Put LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works right now (at least until Murkmire) and Mend Wounds. Adjust the gear and skills that assume you'll be weaving to assume you'll use them as a spammable. And shorten all long animations to match the GCD to make block cancelling unnecessary in a DPS rotation when you don't actually have to block (Endless Hail would be the biggest offender here). Make bar swap have no cooldown and make it a client side action, since skills are on the GCD anyways and having bar swap client side would make the game more responsive too, make it feel more "fast paced" which is what the pro-animation cancelling people argue for. Keep the rest as is (block cancelling to block, roll cancelling to get out of red etc) since it won't affect actual DPS output, but is necessary to keep the game responsive.

This would really make the game feel less broken, while still keeping it as quick and responsive as it is now. This really is the best solution to the problem.

TL;DR:
1. Put light attacks on the same GCD as skills and treat them as spammables when designing around them.
2. Shorten long animations to make animation cancelling not affect DPS output.
3. Make bar swap a client side action to preserve (and enhance) the fast pace feeling.

the only thing i would add is to give us different kinds of unique light attacks to choose from that have useful effects. Not as strong as skills since they are free but useful to all classes and roles.

qbit · September 2018

What's really fun to me is when I run up on a single bad guy and do most of my magsorc rotation with weapon previously holstered. Thanks to lag, all of the skills fire at once and dude's health goes from 100 to 0 instantly. Then he just kind of stands there for a second, lurches forward and falls backwards. Since I never stopped running toward him, I'm there just in time to loot his corpse before it hits the ground. That's fun combat right there.

Animation canceling is good. And it's cosmetic. AoE effects are ticking damage way before they ever display on the ground, for example.

qbit · September 2018

XiDiabolismiX wrote: »

The most frustrating thing to me is the fact that almost every persons argument on “animation cancelling” is that it’s an “exploit”...

Do you guys understand that with global cooldowns, animation cancelling has faded out almost completely. It use to be a way for skilled players to maximize their dps output, but that has changed and it will not increase your dps as much as you are arguing it does in today’s gameplay.

There are however techniques to maximize your dps that are quite simple:

1.) bar swapping. Literally just press the bar swap button after you cast the last skill on your current bar.. this is extremely easy to do and if you are unable to do this then you need to practice more instead of complaining.

2.) light attacking between every skill, otherwise known as weaving. This is an intended feature since the inception of the game (light, medium, heavy attacks). You just press the light attack button and a skill of your preference directly after.

I promise you that those two very simple and easily achievable techniques will net you more dps than performing a bunch of old, outdated “animation cancelling” techniques such as block cancelling, etc..

I also notice that some of you are using the handicap argument, and I’m sorry, but that is just not enough of a reason to change an entire games core mechanics to cater to your needs. It sounds harsh but it is what it is. Find a different game that you can play to the best of your ability due to your situation.

Yep, yep. This. I recently learned bar swap does the trick nicely. Like I cast liquid lightning and bar swap and cast blockade. The liquid lightning has that yellow target circle that delays it slightly. Liquid lightning, bar swap, blockdade ends up hitting both AoEs at almost the same time. Follow up with haunting curse then bar swap back and start the LA and spammable weaving.

I had previously avoided bar swapping as much as possible. I didn't realize that it didn't have a cool down. Newb mistake. That rotation I just described is Alcast's magsorc rotation, but my newbness didn't realize that it was specifically designed that way. I thought all the bar swapping was just bad design and I changed a bunch of skills around to avoid the bar swaps. Oops.

idk · September 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Weaving isn’t necessarily animation cancelling. The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage. If an animation gets cancelled that’s just a byproduct because of the mechanics.

The purpose of animation cancelling is shortening the animation of a skill because this gives an advantage in itself. An example is block cancelling (don’t have to drop block and thus still receive block mitigation) or making skills connect faster (Executioner) or hiding the animation completely (Dawnbreaker).

Weaving and animation cancelling go hand in hand often but yet are distinct regarding the purpose.

You just gave an excellent argument why it IS animation canceling. “The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage.“ No one disputes the fact that that’s the reason people USE animation canceling, but doesn’t address the actual issue: it’s exploiting the GCD to get an edge.

This is backwards. @SmellyUnlimited

The person you quoted has it a little backwards as well. The time to charge a light attack is minimal and the skill will fire while the animation is still occurring. It is not filling any part of a GCD as the time a light attack needs to be charged is defined in game as is the GCD for the skill.

No one is exploiting the GCD. AC cannot shorten the GCD of a skill and it start after the skill has been activated, which is after the light attack. It is the animation that is longer than the GCD and that extra length is all that is shortened.

Which is why Zos did not see a concern in changing it and blessed it as legitimate meaning it is not an exploit at all.

So what if attack animations were changed to make them look more fluid? Would that not change your argument? If the skill fired the second the animation was done occurring, would canceling thus be impossible? This now appears to be an aesthetic problem; attack animations aren’t being portrayed correctly, and thus canceling is a side effect of this.

I do have a problem with a lot of attack animation so in th game:

1. Dual wield light attacks look clunky and much harder to work in than staff light attacks
2. 2H ^^
2. Werewolf animations are completely off. The skill connects without the wolf’s arms actually connecting on target.

We should not be defending ‘weaving’ if the above is true. We should be petitioning for a revamp of attack animations that accurately depict an attack. Weaving in essence becomes a quasi”add-on.” It’s a player created fix for poor programming. So many add-ons are player’s taking it upon themselves to optimize or rectify inadequacies in the UI. Buff timers, combat metrics, etc.

Let’s not rally behind animation canceling, and instead demand a fix for the inaccurate programming that gave rise to it.

The first sentence of yours I placed in bold does not change anything. Maybe it is how you worded it that does not convey any change in animations being longer than required for the skill.

1. not true
2. not true
3. not sure but considering the first two were not correct I expect the same is for here.

Nice post though and good try.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

I'm not on about abolishing it, I am on about if the game should be balanced around it.

In the times of old we used to have trials which could be cleared by a dedicated group reasonably well without being the very top end or requiring animation cancelling.

However now ZOS is pushing AC as a mechanic and encouraging weaving to be core gameplay, this means that it's now becoming an expectation to be able to do that and the game can be balanced around it.

I've also been an advocate for not making it a core mechanic because it pushes people with physical disabilities away from content they might have been able to previously achieve. Feanor has pointed out there are some accessible builds however so it might just be getting this knowledge into the hands of players.

There is a place for it being in the game and letting those who do it score better, run faster and have an easier time. If ZOS tries to match the content to those people though it leaves a damn lot more of the games population behind and continues to push the gap between good players and great players.

And this is where we differ. I fully acknowledge you point and agree to it to some degree. I´d just not pull the line at Score runs but some point before that. At DLC Trials. This is where a high degree of skill is needed. And this should be for the dedicated players who put in the effort, meaning players who learn how to weave/AC, whatever you want to call it.

You rightly say that ZOS now has AC as an expectation. And I agree that starting with (vet) DLC Trials (excluding Craglorn), weaving is important. But given how long ago weaving/AC was "introduced", I dont see why people still oppose it.

To the physical disabilities part. This is true and I feel bad for arguing about this point, however the game should not be designed about a minority. Since these degrees of disabilities vary even a fast paced rotation with no weaving can pose a challenge to some. One might argue that the general gameplay pace could be toned down so we would have near full inclusion, however the overwhelming majority of players prefers a face paced playstyle. Many many complained about the heavy attack meta from Morrowind because it was slowing down the game pace. So you have to make a wager between including the minority or maddening your majority. So I´m going with barring some players from playing the very endgame content.

It is also true that a very long time ago we did content without the need to weave. However - as with scaling in homestead and resource management in Morrowind - things changed. So treat this as one of those game changers. And like I said, 95% of the game are accessible without weaving. The only thing not doable are DLC vet trials and certain vet dungeons on HM. Questing, dungeon, even most vet dungeons, all normal trials including some vet trials... everything can be done without weaving.

I dont want the game to be "dumbed down" (I was really looking for a non-insulting way to phrase this) because people don´t manage to click a light attack before using a skill.

Would you be more okay with weaving if there was an ingame help article and a section in the tutorial about it? Because right now the only way to learn about it is to actively look for ways to increase dps, meaning asking guilds/reading guides which should definitely be handled way better. It is definitely an advanced mechanic, thats why I don´t see it in the "first 10 minutes of the game basic tutorial", however at some point (maybe around lvl 15- weapon swap) there could be a quest where this concept is introduced in form of a quest. I definitely would like to see that and it would be a good way to bridge the gap from good to great players.

(Edited for clarity, to clean up some horrible grammar and put in the part about disabilities)

ZOS will NEVER put in any explanations about weaving (the kind of weaving where you clip the LA animation and actually gain dps) or animation cancelling because the core concept is ridiculous from a game design standpoint. What game is going to advocate clipping their own animations to push your damage numbers up? That'd be like Nintendo making tutorials about how to bomb jump and hop-run in the old Zelda games.

Can you imagine the backlash in the general gaming community that such a tutorial would create? You know, where things like animation cancelling don't exist outside of fighting games? I tried explaining animation cancelling to my gaming friends who don't play ESO and they said it sounded like literal cancer mixed with art-ism (spelled that wrong, you get the idea).

The fact that they've acknowledged the "mechanic" at all is deeply troubling and the fact that they've started tuning content around it is equally troubling.

The explanation is rather simple.

1. Skills have a required GCD that must complete for the skill to fire and this is not tied to the animation.
2. Being able to block, and more at full speed is required for playing this game. Being locked in an animation would be deadly.

As a result we may block at any time. If the GCD, or longer required time for activated abilities, has passed the skill fired, If not the skill does not fire.

That is why it persists.

Many games have simplistic defense mechanisms such as percentage shield and dodge chance build in. Their damage is more cartoonish in that it is merely move out of red and the healer can keep you up. ESO is not very forgiving on damage. Most players that die died because they messed up, not because of the healers.

Well, you’ve stated it’s not true, so thus I guess I have no argument. Never mind the fact that I stated those bullet points were from my own observations; I’ll try and remember to run my impressions by you before I start to think of them.

Also, your post is the best support for mine. You even said that the “additional” portion of the attack was what was being canceled; ergo, if there was NOT an additional portion, and instead the attack exactly as the motion should prescribe, there would be no ‘fluff.’ Which, if you’re following along, would mean there is nothing to cancel.

But by all means, make your cogent argument of “no!”

Putting words into my mouth to change my statement does not actually help yours. I never said a portion of the attack was being canceled.

I clearly stated a portion of the animation was being canceled, not the attack. As stated already, each attack has a required time that must pass for it to fire. A GCD of 1 second is what is required. Very simply stated.

I am not suggesting your opinion that weaving light attacks is challenging for you with some weapons. All of us have room for improvement, every single one of us. Fortunately Zos added DPS dummies for such practice.

Saying my argument was not cogent does not fly when it is merely because you are changing what I said to try to suit your purposes.

Regardless if you agree or not, fact is AC will not be leaving the game soon. That much is very clear.

EmEm_Oh · September 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

What’s with the rise I complaints about animation cancelling? You do not need to be good at it to do well. Most people are prevented from high end ac by latency anyway and plenty of AU and Asia players on NA complete all endgame content on vet HM. Just go through your rotation and light attack weave and don’t worry about it. Anyone should still be able to easily pull over 20-25k dps without animation cancelling as long as you know your build and CP and most importantly your rotation. And that’s enough dps for any content if you have a good group and know your mechanics.

A very good post. Thank-you.

SugaComa · September 2018

Aznox wrote: »

Left click, keyboard 1, Left click, keyboard 2, Left click, keyboard 3, Left click, keyboard 4, Left click, Keyboard R
Bar swap
Left click, keyboard 1, ...

It is THAT simple.

I mean, you could put a ten years old on you computer chair and coach him to achieve a basic rotation within 30 minutes.

Now of course the quality and speed of execution is going to differ with experience and training, but is there any interesting game where this isn't true ?

Try that on a controller with arthrtic hands

SugaComa · September 2018

Marshall1289 wrote: »

It's an extra button, your already pressing buttons, press more buttons if you want the extra damage. This is such a minimal issue. ZOS put it in their game, you can play without the mechanic, but it's designed in nature to increase the amount of dmg potential 1 has. If you choose to not use it, find other ways to play instead of claiming its an exploit or that it should be removed.

It has nothing to do with elitism. This is a video game. Step back a moment and ask yourself what you are arguing about. The people who don't want to light attack weave don't need to do it, but how is it fair to ask for the removal of a core mechanic of the game. If you don't find it fun or entertaining, make a build that doesn't need it. I find it fun. I find it entertaining so I take advantage of that mechanic. This isn't street fighter, it isn't as difficult as it seems. I use a controller and can self-buff parse above 40k on a stam sorc which has almost 0 debuffs/buffs.

For example:

If I look at my parse on PTS that I got 46k with using relequen/selene/ravager/vma bow and removing light attacks (5kdps) and relequen (6.2k dps). You're left with 34k dps, give or take as well the fact that you lose uptime on some enchants (weapon skills proc enchants so not too much) maybe I'd have 28-32k dps and this is cutting out relequen. You could simply use sets that benefit less from using light attacks and buff all your skills as a whole instead.

At the end of the day, you don't need a set amount of dps for content, but you have to understand that you become weaker as a dd and even tank/healer by choosing to opt out of using light attacks. In a game where you are working with other players you are hurting other peoples experience and expecting them to carry you. Most Vet pug group tank/healers will be happy if their dps both break 20k and with my example above, you can do that. If you complete a solid rotation without light attacks and have the proper gear. You can achieve that easily.

Vet HM trials require higher dps for a reason, they are the hardest content in the game. They are built as the most challenging content requiring 12 players to coordinate together. It is even more upsetting to think someone who doesn't want to light attack would want to hinder the experience of 11 other players. So many sets in the game can be obtained from normal mode, you don't even need to set foot in a vet hm trial which is where the dps restrictions are required.

Its a contradiction to want to complete the hardest content in the game without investing your time in to making yourself strong enough to complete the hardest content in the game by avoiding a core mechanic. Pressing "light attack -> skill -> pause" is easy enough for most people. If you prefer to avoid it and pressing "skill -> pause -> skill -> pause" is somehow more interesting to you. Play that way but I don't find that more interesting.

I don't like fishing, but guess what, I want the artaeum takeaway broth recipe. Looks like I can either fish and try to get it or I go on the forums and complain for fishing to be removed. Artaeum takeaway broth is the best stam food in the game, but I'm required to do something I don't like to get it. Sound familiar? There are other options though, a similar drink - dubious cameron throne is available simply from guild shops. If I really don't feel like fishing to get what I want, I can still use the alternative.

This is a small comparison and I'm sure it can be nitpicked apart, obviously vet trials and dps requirements are different, but there is tons of options in the game for people who don't enjoy 1 aspect. Also kinda silly that food is only available through fishing, but meh, I'm fine with it. There are tons of examples like this like pvp skills required in pve or vise versa. It's game design choice to spread the player base out to try different aspects of their game they wouldn't normally try and when you think of it in that way, I respect and support the decision. In the early years of the game I avoided pvp until I realized how awesome caltrops was, tried pvp out to get the skill and soon fell in love with pvp.

Some people like fishing, some people like light attack weaving. Light attack weaving is not an exploit. PERIOD. It is in the game design and it is tied to a CD the same way skills are so you can't use a macro to avoid that CD anyway. The macro would just help you hit the CD precisely on time which is seriously not necessary. In this game you can press a skill when it's on CD and it will cast it once the CD is over. There is a very forgiving system in place.

I find quests boring so I avoid the optional ones. I find fishing boring, so I don't do it. Don't play something that doesn't make you happy. If light attacks are a core component of the game but it hinders your experience to weave them, find another ways to enjoy the game. Taking something away from other players is never the answer.

TLDR: Play your way and the way that makes you happy. There are plenty of options available. Weaving is one for increasing your dps potential and it's not as large as people lead you to believe, choose sets that compliment your playstyle. It's less of a requirement for tanks/healers. This is a community based game. Asking for a core mechanic to be removed is simply unrealistic and many like myself enjoy it. Understand ZOS's design decision.

I agree with about 90% of what your saying ... But truth is animation cancelling and light attack weave are two different things ...

Doing one well leads to the other with greater DPS...the problem lies in that raid groups are asking for him vet trial level DPS just to do normal trials and it's not right having these behind artificial stall walls

By that it's not lack of DPS preventing completion of trials ... It's elitism of groups asking for impossible DPS for some of us that's not actually required for content, cos most raid teams are relient on high DPS to subvert actual mechanics

Sounds dumb but there are two vet dungeons I've not done as every group I have tried with are just DPS racing ... I've had freinds try to "carry" me through it but given up with the DPS isn't high enough

Yet equally I've done some vet dungeons they haven't done ... Cos the game punishes them for to much DPS and forces them to play the mechanics ... But they can't master the mechanics

This in its self is wrong ...

The game shoukd allow both ways to complete it ... And not reward one over the other ... But I do like punishing high DPS to force some kind of mechanic usage but not to the point they can't complete ... Unless they're way dumber than I give them credit for

SaucyMcSauceface · October 2018

SugaComa wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Left click, keyboard 1, Left click, keyboard 2, Left click, keyboard 3, Left click, keyboard 4, Left click, Keyboard R
Bar swap
Left click, keyboard 1, ...

It is THAT simple.

I mean, you could put a ten years old on you computer chair and coach him to achieve a basic rotation within 30 minutes.

Now of course the quality and speed of execution is going to differ with experience and training, but is there any interesting game where this isn't true ?

Try that on a controller with arthrtic hands

The same holds true for many things. I speak as one who has arthritic knees and hips and a background as a dancer. Arthritis limits us. That is simply the reality. I do not expect the dance industry to limit the full possible range of movement to allow me to continue at the same level that I once achieved. I accept that I am less capable than I was.
I expect that arthritis in the hands would make weaving really difficult, that does not mean that it should not be a part of the game when you can complete most content without it even if it means that you will not end up on a leaderboard.

Kikke · October 2018

SugaComa wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Left click, keyboard 1, Left click, keyboard 2, Left click, keyboard 3, Left click, keyboard 4, Left click, Keyboard R
Bar swap
Left click, keyboard 1, ...

It is THAT simple.

I mean, you could put a ten years old on you computer chair and coach him to achieve a basic rotation within 30 minutes.

Now of course the quality and speed of execution is going to differ with experience and training, but is there any interesting game where this isn't true ?

Try that on a controller with arthrtic hands

And why should the END-game be balanced around your handicap?

adeptusminor · October 2018

SugaComa wrote: »

I agree with about 90% of what your saying ... But truth is animation cancelling and light attack weave are two different things ...

Doing one well leads to the other with greater DPS...the problem lies in that raid groups are asking for him vet trial level DPS just to do normal trials and it's not right having these behind artificial stall walls

By that it's not lack of DPS preventing completion of trials ... It's elitism of groups asking for impossible DPS for some of us that's not actually required for content, cos most raid teams are relient on high DPS to subvert actual mechanics

Sounds dumb but there are two vet dungeons I've not done as every group I have tried with are just DPS racing ... I've had freinds try to "carry" me through it but given up with the DPS isn't high enough

Yet equally I've done some vet dungeons they haven't done ... Cos the game punishes them for to much DPS and forces them to play the mechanics ... But they can't master the mechanics

This in its self is wrong ...

The game shoukd allow both ways to complete it ... And not reward one over the other ... But I do like punishing high DPS to force some kind of mechanic usage but not to the point they can't complete ... Unless they're way dumber than I give them credit for

I've never seen anyone on PCNA ask for HM vet dps levels (usually 35k+) to run a normal trial, ever, and I've been doing trials almost daily for over a year with many different guilds and pug groups, countless pug groups. The thing is though, a group can have whatever requirements they want for people to run with them, it's their group so their rules. While I find it hard to believe you have experienced people running normal trials requiring 35k+ dps to join them, because at that point you might as well do vet and get the plunder, if you actually have you need to find better groups.

SHADOW2KK · October 2018

shiningforce wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Meh massive l2p issue OP, sounds like you have rubbish gear/rubbish rotation, rubbish everything, and you want ani cancelling gone, how about you get gone, or git gud.

This is your answer for pretty much any topic, I have read you type this so many times in so many posts, yet it holds very little merit. It also doesnt look well on you mate.

Well if the shoe fits....

I am not interested in how it looks, and I am not your mate.

OP has no idea, l2p is what is required, I am so tired of the game being nerfed so much over the years due to players who find things too hard, look at Doshia pre nerf, if you were there, or Molag Bal, for PvE side, or varying other examples over the years, you can go through this game blindfolded and still rek everything in a lot of the content.

The game bends over backwards to newer players, I have no problem with lesser skilled players, it is the ones who think they have a valid opinon after a new york minute and think they know what is best, or the ones who will not try to improve (if they want too), I have no problem with casual players, as long as everyone has fun in their own ways, but coming on to the forums and basically screaming for nerfs, or whatever is rubbish, and the game has suffered over the years due to it, I am not saying that all of the nerf this brigade is wrong, some things do need balanced.

Ani cancelling is not difficult to do, ZoS said it is ok, it does not matter if you cannot pull mega parses, not all content is gonna be achieveable for many people, but if you want the hard stuff conquered, then do the work to earn it, hence my harsh post earlier that you commented too.

Arciris · October 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I'll say the same thing I said in any thread about it... Put LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works right now (at least until Murkmire) and Mend Wounds. Adjust the gear and skills that assume you'll be weaving to assume you'll use them as a spammable. And shorten all long animations to match the GCD to make block cancelling unnecessary in a DPS rotation when you don't actually have to block (Endless Hail would be the biggest offender here). Make bar swap have no cooldown and make it a client side action, since skills are on the GCD anyways and having bar swap client side would make the game more responsive too, make it feel more "fast paced" which is what the pro-animation cancelling people argue for. Keep the rest as is (block cancelling to block, roll cancelling to get out of red etc) since it won't affect actual DPS output, but is necessary to keep the game responsive.

This would really make the game feel less broken, while still keeping it as quick and responsive as it is now. This really is the best solution to the problem.

TL;DR:
1. Put light attacks on the same GCD as skills and treat them as spammables when designing around them.
2. Shorten long animations to make animation cancelling not affect DPS output.
3. Make bar swap a client side action to preserve (and enhance) the fast pace feeling.

This is by far the best proposal I have seen. I totally agree.

There is no reason whatsoever why damaging abilities should be on a different cooldown.
If it does damage, you need to spend a GCD for it.
Light and heavy attacks are free, can even return resources, can proc a multitude of abilities or sets, it's enough reason to use them.
Block, Roll Dodge and Bash (remove the damage but keep the off balance effect) and Bar Swap should be kept off the GCD for a fast, responsive, reactive combat and should be able to cancel any skill, at the expense of damage if necessary (trade off damage/defense)
As for animations, there is no logical reason whatsoever why those should last longer than the skill taking effect.

SugaComa · October 2018

kikkehs wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Left click, keyboard 1, Left click, keyboard 2, Left click, keyboard 3, Left click, keyboard 4, Left click, Keyboard R
Bar swap
Left click, keyboard 1, ...

It is THAT simple.

I mean, you could put a ten years old on you computer chair and coach him to achieve a basic rotation within 30 minutes.

Now of course the quality and speed of execution is going to differ with experience and training, but is there any interesting game where this isn't true ?

Try that on a controller with arthrtic hands

And why should the END-game be balanced around your handicap?

I'm not saying it should be ...

I'm saying it shouldn't prevent me from doing vet content but should prevent me from hitting leader boards with speed runs

Biro123 · October 2018

People still complain about this?

Simple answer is that its part of the game, and a skill you need to master to get better at it.

Asking for it to be removed is like asking for passing to be removed from football just because you either can't do it, or don't want to learn.

Its just as integral.

MehrunesFlagon · October 2018

dazee wrote: »

Dude I shouldn't have to exploit the way the combat system is set up to do good dps. And that's exactly what animation cancelling is. I won't do it and until ZOS fixes this exploit ESO is broken.

Weaving is entirely another thing.

How many times do we have to say it's not an exploit? Besides you do realize that block cancelling is actually a dps loss.

BuddyAces · October 2018

SugaComa wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Left click, keyboard 1, Left click, keyboard 2, Left click, keyboard 3, Left click, keyboard 4, Left click, Keyboard R
Bar swap
Left click, keyboard 1, ...

It is THAT simple.

I mean, you could put a ten years old on you computer chair and coach him to achieve a basic rotation within 30 minutes.

Now of course the quality and speed of execution is going to differ with experience and training, but is there any interesting game where this isn't true ?

Try that on a controller with arthrtic hands

And why should the END-game be balanced around your handicap?

I'm not saying it should be ...

I'm saying it shouldn't prevent me from doing vet content but should prevent me from hitting leader boards with speed runs

How much dps can you do and what vet content is it preventing you from doing? Honestly, just a serious question. If you're going to say you can only do 15k dps tops then I can guarantee you it's not your arthritis.

My wife has it in her's but she's on pc. The weaving does start to flare hers up after a while and it does impact performance.

MehrunesFlagon · October 2018

SugaComa wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Left click, keyboard 1, Left click, keyboard 2, Left click, keyboard 3, Left click, keyboard 4, Left click, Keyboard R
Bar swap
Left click, keyboard 1, ...

It is THAT simple.

I mean, you could put a ten years old on you computer chair and coach him to achieve a basic rotation within 30 minutes.

Now of course the quality and speed of execution is going to differ with experience and training, but is there any interesting game where this isn't true ?

Try that on a controller with arthrtic hands

If you want decent comparison to that.Think of older guitarists/Violinists.Surely they experience arthritis.Rhythm being the equivalent of hitting the buttons at the same time.

JumpmanLane · October 2018

mocap wrote: »

dude, you don't even try it, right?
press skill, then press light attack, then press another skill, then light attack. It's ridiculously simple.

Super easy using a controller. Some of these people crying for nerfs should probably uninstall.

McCloskey10_5_13 · October 2018

Seriously folks, a controller might solve some of the issues. Either way, your limitation is not something that should be taken into account. Should top end fighting games be made so that you can compete at the highest level with these issues? Should pistol competitions force all entrants to slow down how many shots they take per second so that you can keep up? Should call of duty cut everything to half speed because some people don't have good reaction time? Should the Boston Marathon be shortened to take into account people with bad knees who can't run that far?

How about folks with no hands whatsoever? Is it fair that the game is designed in such a way that they wouldn't even be able to complete a normal dungeon? If the entire game were designed so simply that moving with one joystick and looking at the right place with the other were how you attacked then it would certainly be more fair to them. That may seem like an absurdity, but their physical state means that they can't play any of this game. And it seems from your own reports that yours means you can only play the vast majority of it. That is truly unfortunate and you have my sympathy, but it shouldn't affect the game anymore than if you had no hands at all.

Whoever at ZOS said ani-canceling wasn't intended was a fool. Somewhere, someone made the call that skills would prioritize over light attacks, though the light attack damage had already counted because they are "instant". When some coder somewhere in the basement then asked what they wanted done with the rest of the animation, someone somewhere decided to have it cancel. They decided the animation should be cancelled. And if I'm not mistaken, the light attack animation doesn't even cancel anymore, it just fast forwards through the rest of the animation. So it Definitely shouldn't be called ani-cancelling, even if it may have been once.

This game is seriously not fast paced. Fighting games count out their animations and inputs frame by frame they are so fast. Any change to the light attack system would have to go one of two ways in order to make it so skills would not "prioritize" over instant light attacks:

Add light attacks to the global cooldown- this is a TERRIBLE idea. This will make light attacks completely irrelevant, as you would either use a skill in its place or use a heavy to regain resources, and it would make the game feel sluggish and unresponsive, which it already does, to the point that this game would start bleeding players more accustomed to any other video game which would be faster paced at that point. You have to realize, even if you aren't weaving, for the most part when you hit light attack, you are able to light attack, whether or not you are then going to cancel with a skill, which makes the game feel responsive. Having to wait a second to do ANYTHING would ruin the game even for the casuals who aren't trying to light attack weave, but simply spam light attack while fighting because they are trying to fight a monster, and they want to hit it with their sword. If they have to wait a second every time they try to hit a monster with their sword, they don't play ESO anymore.

The only other way I already mentioned would be frame counts for every attack and skill with windows where you could bail on the move, and other windows where you were committed, which is the system used in most fighting games. Your character is nice and responsive unless you go for that powerful uppercut and miss it! Now you are committed for the rest of the frames of that move and open to attack, even unable to block. But we are talking tenths of a second, and there is time to cancel the move BEFORE you commit to it in order to react to changing conditions. Unfortunately, if anyone has ever played a fighting game online, you know these tolerances are so tight that it makes even a 1 on 1 fight on a 2D plane a laggy nightmare. There is no feasible way this could be implemented in this game with today's technology, not to mention an entirely new element of balance which would be how many frames each move takes, and at what point you are committed.

The animations don't even matter. Stop thinking of them as part of the combat system because the two are not tied together. The combat system allows you to light attack once per second (some say 0.6), and cast a skill once per second. Forget the animations, they are just the pretty things that happen to make the game look cool in the mean time. Whether they play out or not is irrelevant to the fight.

And stop trying to cut the pace of this game in half because you aren't able to find someone who will help you complete the hardest content in the game. Get better friends. I don't know where you find these people, because most of the end game community I've met have been very helpful and even willing to carry people along within reason. There's enough people in this thread alone complaining that if you all got together you could make a guild with your own rules, help other people in similar situations, and probably complete all of the content eventually. Why don't we try that easier solution before we ruin this game.

idk · October 2018

The OP has moved on. Hopefully to a game he could grasp a little better. Time for us to let this thread die.

OrphanHelgen · October 2018

Go werewolf bloodmoon problem solved. No weapon swap, no animation cancle.

MehrunesFlagon · October 2018

Arciris wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I'll say the same thing I said in any thread about it... Put LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works right now (at least until Murkmire) and Mend Wounds. Adjust the gear and skills that assume you'll be weaving to assume you'll use them as a spammable. And shorten all long animations to match the GCD to make block cancelling unnecessary in a DPS rotation when you don't actually have to block (Endless Hail would be the biggest offender here). Make bar swap have no cooldown and make it a client side action, since skills are on the GCD anyways and having bar swap client side would make the game more responsive too, make it feel more "fast paced" which is what the pro-animation cancelling people argue for. Keep the rest as is (block cancelling to block, roll cancelling to get out of red etc) since it won't affect actual DPS output, but is necessary to keep the game responsive.

This would really make the game feel less broken, while still keeping it as quick and responsive as it is now. This really is the best solution to the problem.

TL;DR:
1. Put light attacks on the same GCD as skills and treat them as spammables when designing around them.
2. Shorten long animations to make animation cancelling not affect DPS output.
3. Make bar swap a client side action to preserve (and enhance) the fast pace feeling.

This is by far the best proposal I have seen. I totally agree.

There is no reason whatsoever why damaging abilities should be on a different cooldown.
If it does damage, you need to spend a GCD for it.
Light and heavy attacks are free, can even return resources, can proc a multitude of abilities or sets, it's enough reason to use them.
Block, Roll Dodge and Bash (remove the damage but keep the off balance effect) and Bar Swap should be kept off the GCD for a fast, responsive, reactive combat and should be able to cancel any skill, at the expense of damage if necessary (trade off damage/defense)
As for animations, there is no logical reason whatsoever why those should last longer than the skill taking effect.

Number 1 is actually the worst idea.We don't need to slow down combat.

adeptusminor · October 2018

Animation cancelling killed my loved ones