Animation Cancelling- the reason I don't play regularly anymore.

CyrusArya · May 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I will say, though, that those who think weaving isn’t animation canceling, then you yourself don’t understand animation canceling. Because animation canceling is so prevalent, and that term implies a type of exploit, the community has made thr euphemism for it “weaving.”

Weaving = using a skill to shorten the full animation of a light attack. The animation is canceled.

It becomes a simple time/distance problem: distance (target hp) / speed (number or attacks you can get off) = time (time to kill). The more attacks you can get off, the lower your time. Which is why on a dps parse all you really need to know how much hp the target has and the time the parse took.

So everyone arguing that weaving isn’t animation canceling, you’re just perpetuating this misinformation campaign to try and justify what IS an exploitive technique (exploit = the use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.). Logically, it makes no sense that an attack would land when the actual animation is canceled before hitting the target.

Go hit a baseball, but before your bat connects, start running for first base. Now ponder why the first baseman is scratching his head.

You can only animation cancel instant abilities. Instant. Meaning the function is to be executed the moment you press the button. Meaning you aren’t actually skipping or cancelling anything as far as mechanics are concerned. All cancelling does is remove the fluff, making for smoother more seamless gameplay.

To apply this to your logic, the batter isn’t skipping the bat hitting the ball....they just are keeping the momentum and not resetting the bat to its starting position after it connects with the ball. Do you even realize how stupid, clunky, and unintuitive baseball would be if it was played the way you are actually describing? Lmao.

Aznox · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

I'm not on about abolishing it, I am on about if the game should be balanced around it.

In the times of old we used to have trials which could be cleared by a dedicated group reasonably well without being the very top end or requiring animation cancelling.

However now ZOS is pushing AC as a mechanic and encouraging weaving to be core gameplay, this means that it's now becoming an expectation to be able to do that and the game can be balanced around it.

I've also been an advocate for not making it a core mechanic because it pushes people with physical disabilities away from content they might have been able to previously achieve. Feanor has pointed out there are some accessible builds however so it might just be getting this knowledge into the hands of players.

There is a place for it being in the game and letting those who do it score better, run faster and have an easier time. If ZOS tries to match the content to those people though it leaves a damn lot more of the games population behind and continues to push the gap between good players and great players.

I find your position to be a bit selfish :
- You want to be able to get 100% of the achievement in the game (vTrial HM, Speed, NoDeath, etc...)
- You want to the game to be balanced around your level / amount of effort
- Therefore you want better players than you to be left with no interesting challenge. (leaderboard alone isn't one)

Marginis · May 2018

I feel like the skill required should be in theorycrafting builds or fast reflexes and timings, not both. If you want your game to reward smart players, like most TES games, focus less on the physical techniques needed to play well and more on what skills you want to use and how you want to use them. If you want your game to reward fast players, like, say, Call of Duty, don't make it require too much mental effort beyond "equip gun, aim gun, shoot gun", and players can then focus on tactics within the fight. If you require both fast skills and high strategy, you're severely limiting the number of players who are going to be happy with how things work, AND you're going to be constantly stuck trying to balance the mental prowess and physical prowess requirement so as not to *** off either type of player.

This is the same kind of problem (one of the many problems) that Destiny had, and is the reason why a lot of players went back to other games. Even if we go back further, we can see another example in Gears of War, where certain maneuvers were eliminated in later titles, like sliding into cover while picking up weapons, or being able to shoot at the same time as roll dodging. Epic Games wanted to focus more on the strategy of the game than quick reflexes and memorizing button combos. It's asking "Is it worth picking up that weapon and being vulnerable for two seconds while I pick it up?" or "How should I approach the target, with or without cover?" rather than just relying on your ability to press certain buttons in a particular order at the right speed. You can see this in plenty of other games too (I just know Gears really well).

So my point of view, anyway, is that the game would be better off if it either A. took away vaguely glitchy or niche techniques like animation cancelling in order to focus on strategy or B. made theorycrafting and making builds more accessible and transparent, in order to focus more on skill in combat. Just my perspective though, I don't like games having their playerbase split against each other on such fundamental aspects of the game.

SmellyUnlimited · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Weaving isn’t necessarily animation cancelling. The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage. If an animation gets cancelled that’s just a byproduct because of the mechanics.

The purpose of animation cancelling is shortening the animation of a skill because this gives an advantage in itself. An example is block cancelling (don’t have to drop block and thus still receive block mitigation) or making skills connect faster (Executioner) or hiding the animation completely (Dawnbreaker).

Weaving and animation cancelling go hand in hand often but yet are distinct regarding the purpose.

You just gave an excellent argument why it IS animation canceling. “The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage.“ No one disputes the fact that that’s the reason people USE animation canceling, but doesn’t address the actual issue: it’s exploiting the GCD to get an edge.

Gprime31 · May 2018

Is this someone important?? Why do these people announce they are leaving, like anyone cares, try bless hear it’s good lol

SmellyUnlimited · May 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I will say, though, that those who think weaving isn’t animation canceling, then you yourself don’t understand animation canceling. Because animation canceling is so prevalent, and that term implies a type of exploit, the community has made thr euphemism for it “weaving.”

Weaving = using a skill to shorten the full animation of a light attack. The animation is canceled.

It becomes a simple time/distance problem: distance (target hp) / speed (number or attacks you can get off) = time (time to kill). The more attacks you can get off, the lower your time. Which is why on a dps parse all you really need to know how much hp the target has and the time the parse took.

So everyone arguing that weaving isn’t animation canceling, you’re just perpetuating this misinformation campaign to try and justify what IS an exploitive technique (exploit = the use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.). Logically, it makes no sense that an attack would land when the actual animation is canceled before hitting the target.

Go hit a baseball, but before your bat connects, start running for first base. Now ponder why the first baseman is scratching his head.

You can only animation cancel instant abilities. Instant. Meaning the function is to be executed the moment you press the button. Meaning you aren’t actually skipping or cancelling anything as far as mechanics are concerned. All cancelling does is remove the fluff, making for smoother more seamless gameplay.

To apply this to your logic, the batter isn’t skipping the bat hitting the ball....they just are keeping the momentum and not resetting the bat to its starting position after it connects with the ball. Do you even realize how stupid, clunky, and unintuitive baseball would be if it was played the way you are actually describing? Lmao.

Not quite. The example you gave actually bolsters my point: it’s actually NOT keeping the momentum. Momentum = Force x Velocity; “keeping with the momentum” would in fact point to the batter’s momentum still in effect after hitting the ball. A closer approximation is the batter striking the ball, but not being required to follow through. It’s illogical, and without that follow-through force that ball would be little more than a bunt. Such is animation canceling. It’s striking but without the natural momentum that would entail, yet still generating the same force.

You can’t exploit real life that way, but you can exploit a video game where physics are determined by the programmers. So equivalent force being generated off zero momentum; that IS ‘counter-intuitive.’

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · May 2018

Gprime31 wrote: »

Is this someone important?? Why do these people announce they are leaving, like anyone cares, try bless hear it’s good lol

Good point. I guess the issue is that the unknowing will read posts like this and become discouraged and contrary to popular belief the "elites" in this game want more ppl to play with at a competitive level not fewer.

Oxalias · May 2018

My god another one of these threads. "Please remove a difficulty bar I can't achieve so all the good players can be on the same level as me" Your damage isn't going to go up if they remove it. Do I need to say anything else? Oh yes "exploit" Zos is very strict about exploits, so if it was an exploit they would have fixed it. Now if you are a low latency player, I really can't sympathise with you, as an OCE 310ping player myself. Animation cancelling is still very possible.

idk · May 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Weaving isn’t necessarily animation cancelling. The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage. If an animation gets cancelled that’s just a byproduct because of the mechanics.

The purpose of animation cancelling is shortening the animation of a skill because this gives an advantage in itself. An example is block cancelling (don’t have to drop block and thus still receive block mitigation) or making skills connect faster (Executioner) or hiding the animation completely (Dawnbreaker).

Weaving and animation cancelling go hand in hand often but yet are distinct regarding the purpose.

You just gave an excellent argument why it IS animation canceling. “The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage.“ No one disputes the fact that that’s the reason people USE animation canceling, but doesn’t address the actual issue: it’s exploiting the GCD to get an edge.

This is backwards. @SmellyUnlimited

The person you quoted has it a little backwards as well. The time to charge a light attack is minimal and the skill will fire while the animation is still occurring. It is not filling any part of a GCD as the time a light attack needs to be charged is defined in game as is the GCD for the skill.

No one is exploiting the GCD. AC cannot shorten the GCD of a skill and it start after the skill has been activated, which is after the light attack. It is the animation that is longer than the GCD and that extra length is all that is shortened.

Which is why Zos did not see a concern in changing it and blessed it as legitimate meaning it is not an exploit at all.

Seri · May 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I will say, though, that those who think weaving isn’t animation canceling, then you yourself don’t understand animation canceling. Because animation canceling is so prevalent, and that term implies a type of exploit, the community has made thr euphemism for it “weaving.”

Weaving = using a skill to shorten the full animation of a light attack. The animation is canceled.

It becomes a simple time/distance problem: distance (target hp) / speed (number or attacks you can get off) = time (time to kill). The more attacks you can get off, the lower your time. Which is why on a dps parse all you really need to know how much hp the target has and the time the parse took.

So everyone arguing that weaving isn’t animation canceling, you’re just perpetuating this misinformation campaign to try and justify what IS an exploitive technique (exploit = the use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.). Logically, it makes no sense that an attack would land when the actual animation is canceled before hitting the target.

Go hit a baseball, but before your bat connects, start running for first base. Now ponder why the first baseman is scratching his head.

I would argue that weaving does not perform what you state - ZOS made changes that the windup and strike of a light attack will still always play (I play magicka and can confirm that this still always happens with a staff - it's quick, but it does happen), even if you trigger a skill before you connect, thus no pre-strike animation is actually visually cancelled.

From this aspect with the baseball analogy, it's closer to getting ready and preparing to run the while the ball travels to you, and then running as soon as you connect, rather than waiting for a full swing through and recovery.

SmellyUnlimited · May 2018

idk wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Weaving isn’t necessarily animation cancelling. The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage. If an animation gets cancelled that’s just a byproduct because of the mechanics.

The purpose of animation cancelling is shortening the animation of a skill because this gives an advantage in itself. An example is block cancelling (don’t have to drop block and thus still receive block mitigation) or making skills connect faster (Executioner) or hiding the animation completely (Dawnbreaker).

Weaving and animation cancelling go hand in hand often but yet are distinct regarding the purpose.

You just gave an excellent argument why it IS animation canceling. “The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage.“ No one disputes the fact that that’s the reason people USE animation canceling, but doesn’t address the actual issue: it’s exploiting the GCD to get an edge.

This is backwards. @SmellyUnlimited

The person you quoted has it a little backwards as well. The time to charge a light attack is minimal and the skill will fire while the animation is still occurring. It is not filling any part of a GCD as the time a light attack needs to be charged is defined in game as is the GCD for the skill.

No one is exploiting the GCD. AC cannot shorten the GCD of a skill and it start after the skill has been activated, which is after the light attack. It is the animation that is longer than the GCD and that extra length is all that is shortened.

Which is why Zos did not see a concern in changing it and blessed it as legitimate meaning it is not an exploit at all.

So what if attack animations were changed to make them look more fluid? Would that not change your argument? If the skill fired the second the animation was done occurring, would canceling thus be impossible? This now appears to be an aesthetic problem; attack animations aren’t being portrayed correctly, and thus canceling is a side effect of this.

I do have a problem with a lot of attack animation so in th game:

1. Dual wield light attacks look clunky and much harder to work in than staff light attacks
2. 2H ^^
2. Werewolf animations are completely off. The skill connects without the wolf’s arms actually connecting on target.

We should not be defending ‘weaving’ if the above is true. We should be petitioning for a revamp of attack animations that accurately depict an attack. Weaving in essence becomes a quasi”add-on.” It’s a player created fix for poor programming. So many add-ons are player’s taking it upon themselves to optimize or rectify inadequacies in the UI. Buff timers, combat metrics, etc.

Let’s not rally behind animation canceling, and instead demand a fix for the inaccurate programming that gave rise to it.

nekura · May 2018

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

Your petulance is noted. I work in the industry and as is common you make your big hires early on, create the game and then go into maintenance. I think most know that 'anim canceling' was previously considered an exploit, and then adopted officially, because ZOS will not prioritize nor has the resources to fix what is a long-standing failure in their game.

What is relevant is that this will never be addressed - it's far too late in the game.

What do you do about it? Macro it like everyone else in the game does; do it manually to a greater effect even though it's incredibly tedious; consider finding another game.

[edit] OP : I just want to add that I refuse to recommend this game to any of my DAoC friends because of anim canceling.

/end

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO · May 2018

nekura wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

Your petulance is noted. I work in the industry and as is common you make your big hires early on, create the game and then go into maintenance. I think most know that 'anim canceling' was previously considered an exploit, and then adopted officially, because ZOS will not prioritize nor has the resources to fix what is a long-standing failure in their game.

What is relevant is that this will never be addressed - it's far too late in the game.

What do you do about it? Macro it like everyone else in the game does; do it manually to a greater effect even though it's incredibly tedious; consider finding another game.

[edit] OP : I just want to add that I refuse to recommend this game to any of my DAoC friends because of anim canceling.

/end

Macro? As in program it into your skills via your keyboard software? Dont!
Its against TOS and might ban you. Not everyone does that. Basically noone does that, at least noone who wants to keep their account. What gives you the impression that people macro that?

Yes, do it manually. Thats how you do it. Is it harder? Yes, absolutely, though with time it becomes second nature, as everything does.

Find another game? Maybe you should do that if you are not willing to put in the effort.

I don´t see how people are so appalled by the idea that you have to put in some work to get good results. How is this a new idea to you? In every sport you have to put in work to get good. How is this any different?!

Want to get good with the guitar? Practice. Want to become a better driver? Practice. Want to be a great singer? Practice.
As I said earlier, 95% of the game can be done in lazy mode without AC. Around maybe 75% of the game can even be done without a proper rotation. But if you want to do the pro stuff you got to practice, this includes anim cancelling.

Yes the system was based on an exploit. But it is not anymore. It has been adopted as a game mechanic. The creator has accepted it as that. So just move past this. Adopt it. If you dont want you you can either stay out of vet trials or quit the game.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · May 2018

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

nekura wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

Your petulance is noted. I work in the industry and as is common you make your big hires early on, create the game and then go into maintenance. I think most know that 'anim canceling' was previously considered an exploit, and then adopted officially, because ZOS will not prioritize nor has the resources to fix what is a long-standing failure in their game.

What is relevant is that this will never be addressed - it's far too late in the game.

What do you do about it? Macro it like everyone else in the game does; do it manually to a greater effect even though it's incredibly tedious; consider finding another game.

[edit] OP : I just want to add that I refuse to recommend this game to any of my DAoC friends because of anim canceling.

/end

Macro? As in program it into your skills via your keyboard software? Dont!
Its against TOS and might ban you. Not everyone does that. Basically noone does that, at least noone who wants to keep their account. What gives you the impression that people macro that?

Yes, do it manually. Thats how you do it. Is it harder? Yes, absolutely, though with time it becomes second nature, as everything does.

Find another game? Maybe you should do that if you are not willing to put in the effort.

I don´t see how people are so appalled by the idea that you have to put in some work to get good results. How is this a new idea to you? In every sport you have to put in work to get good. How is this any different?!

Want to get good with the guitar? Practice. Want to become a better driver? Practice. Want to be a great singer? Practice.
As I said earlier, 95% of the game can be done in lazy mode without AC. Around maybe 75% of the game can even be done without a proper rotation. But if you want to do the pro stuff you got to practice, this includes anim cancelling.

Yes the system was based on an exploit. But it is not anymore. It has been adopted as a game mechanic. The creator has accepted it as that. So just move past this. Adopt it. If you dont want you you can either stay out of vet trials or quit the game.

Some ppl macro a light attack in before a button press and it's easy because alot of gaming keyboards and mice come with software for it. Witch macroing you lose so much dps it's not even worth it. It's better to just relaxe and learn a rotation slowly.

Oh of the biggest reasons why I love this game is how fast paced and engaging the combat is, the same can be said for many others. op your ffighting a losing battle.

nekura · May 2018

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Macro? As in program it into your skills via your keyboard software? Dont!
Its against TOS and might ban you. Not everyone does that. Basically noone does that, at least noone who wants to keep their account. What gives you the impression that people macro that?

I'm not hating on you for not knowing, but if you watch any of the top streamers for this game they macro. It's pretty obvious when you know what to look for. LA weaves, canceling with block / interrupt, heavy attacks to get resources are all considerably shorter than their animations -- those are all commonly macro'd and they won't ban you for it.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

nekura wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Macro? As in program it into your skills via your keyboard software? Dont!
Its against TOS and might ban you. Not everyone does that. Basically noone does that, at least noone who wants to keep their account. What gives you the impression that people macro that?

I'm not hating on you for not knowing, but if you watch any of the top streamers for this game they macro. It's pretty obvious when you know what to look for. LA weaves, canceling with block / interrupt, heavy attacks to get resources are all considerably shorter than their animations -- those are all commonly macro'd and they won't ban you for it.

You realize Block cancelling is only good, well, if you need to block, right? Otherwise, it servers no purpose.

And you can't shorten a heavy attack and still get resources. It has to be a full.

Shorten it, it becomes a medium, and no resource return (again, zero purpose unless restarting your rotation).

nekura · May 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You realize Block cancelling is only good, well, if you need to block, right? Otherwise, it servers no purpose.

And you can't shorten a heavy attack and still get resources. It has to be a full.

Shorten it, it becomes a medium, and no resource return (again, zero purpose unless restarting your rotation).

1) Anim canceling with block really has nothing to do with blocking. You are only blocking for milliseconds.

2) I'm assuming you've never seen this, or else you wouldn't be misinformed.

evoniee · May 2018

I can weave in every skill i cast.
With 400 ping, no joke.
The other reason dps still low is :
Real enemy is move and attack back, is not a non moving dummy.
Did not have best possible gear (all gold, has best enhancement and trait) and not reach max CP yet.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2018

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

I'm not on about abolishing it, I am on about if the game should be balanced around it.

In the times of old we used to have trials which could be cleared by a dedicated group reasonably well without being the very top end or requiring animation cancelling.

However now ZOS is pushing AC as a mechanic and encouraging weaving to be core gameplay, this means that it's now becoming an expectation to be able to do that and the game can be balanced around it.

I've also been an advocate for not making it a core mechanic because it pushes people with physical disabilities away from content they might have been able to previously achieve. Feanor has pointed out there are some accessible builds however so it might just be getting this knowledge into the hands of players.

There is a place for it being in the game and letting those who do it score better, run faster and have an easier time. If ZOS tries to match the content to those people though it leaves a damn lot more of the games population behind and continues to push the gap between good players and great players.

And this is where we differ. I fully acknowledge you point and agree to it to some degree. I´d just not pull the line at Score runs but some point before that. At DLC Trials. This is where a high degree of skill is needed. And this should be for the dedicated players who put in the effort, meaning players who learn how to weave/AC, whatever you want to call it.

You rightly say that ZOS now has AC as an expectation. And I agree that starting with (vet) DLC Trials (excluding Craglorn), weaving is important. But given how long ago weaving/AC was "introduced", I dont see why people still oppose it.

To the physical disabilities part. This is true and I feel bad for arguing about this point, however the game should not be designed about a minority. Since these degrees of disabilities vary even a fast paced rotation with no weaving can pose a challenge to some. One might argue that the general gameplay pace could be toned down so we would have near full inclusion, however the overwhelming majority of players prefers a face paced playstyle. Many many complained about the heavy attack meta from Morrowind because it was slowing down the game pace. So you have to make a wager between including the minority or maddening your majority. So I´m going with barring some players from playing the very endgame content.

It is also true that a very long time ago we did content without the need to weave. However - as with scaling in homestead and resource management in Morrowind - things changed. So treat this as one of those game changers. And like I said, 95% of the game are accessible without weaving. The only thing not doable are DLC vet trials and certain vet dungeons on HM. Questing, dungeon, even most vet dungeons, all normal trials including some vet trials... everything can be done without weaving.

I dont want the game to be "dumbed down" (I was really looking for a non-insulting way to phrase this) because people don´t manage to click a light attack before using a skill.

Would you be more okay with weaving if there was an ingame help article and a section in the tutorial about it? Because right now the only way to learn about it is to actively look for ways to increase dps, meaning asking guilds/reading guides which should definitely be handled way better. It is definitely an advanced mechanic, thats why I don´t see it in the "first 10 minutes of the game basic tutorial", however at some point (maybe around lvl 15- weapon swap) there could be a quest where this concept is introduced in form of a quest. I definitely would like to see that and it would be a good way to bridge the gap from good to great players.

(Edited for clarity, to clean up some horrible grammar and put in the part about disabilities)

ZOS will NEVER put in any explanations about weaving (the kind of weaving where you clip the LA animation and actually gain dps) or animation cancelling because the core concept is ridiculous from a game design standpoint. What game is going to advocate clipping their own animations to push your damage numbers up? That'd be like Nintendo making tutorials about how to bomb jump and hop-run in the old Zelda games.

Can you imagine the backlash in the general gaming community that such a tutorial would create? You know, where things like animation cancelling don't exist outside of fighting games? I tried explaining animation cancelling to my gaming friends who don't play ESO and they said it sounded like literal cancer mixed with art-ism (spelled that wrong, you get the idea).

The fact that they've acknowledged the "mechanic" at all is deeply troubling and the fact that they've started tuning content around it is equally troubling.

idk · May 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Weaving isn’t necessarily animation cancelling. The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage. If an animation gets cancelled that’s just a byproduct because of the mechanics.

The purpose of animation cancelling is shortening the animation of a skill because this gives an advantage in itself. An example is block cancelling (don’t have to drop block and thus still receive block mitigation) or making skills connect faster (Executioner) or hiding the animation completely (Dawnbreaker).

Weaving and animation cancelling go hand in hand often but yet are distinct regarding the purpose.

You just gave an excellent argument why it IS animation canceling. “The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage.“ No one disputes the fact that that’s the reason people USE animation canceling, but doesn’t address the actual issue: it’s exploiting the GCD to get an edge.

This is backwards. @SmellyUnlimited

The person you quoted has it a little backwards as well. The time to charge a light attack is minimal and the skill will fire while the animation is still occurring. It is not filling any part of a GCD as the time a light attack needs to be charged is defined in game as is the GCD for the skill.

No one is exploiting the GCD. AC cannot shorten the GCD of a skill and it start after the skill has been activated, which is after the light attack. It is the animation that is longer than the GCD and that extra length is all that is shortened.

Which is why Zos did not see a concern in changing it and blessed it as legitimate meaning it is not an exploit at all.

So what if attack animations were changed to make them look more fluid? Would that not change your argument? If the skill fired the second the animation was done occurring, would canceling thus be impossible? This now appears to be an aesthetic problem; attack animations aren’t being portrayed correctly, and thus canceling is a side effect of this.

I do have a problem with a lot of attack animation so in th game:

1. Dual wield light attacks look clunky and much harder to work in than staff light attacks
2. 2H ^^
2. Werewolf animations are completely off. The skill connects without the wolf’s arms actually connecting on target.

We should not be defending ‘weaving’ if the above is true. We should be petitioning for a revamp of attack animations that accurately depict an attack. Weaving in essence becomes a quasi”add-on.” It’s a player created fix for poor programming. So many add-ons are player’s taking it upon themselves to optimize or rectify inadequacies in the UI. Buff timers, combat metrics, etc.

Let’s not rally behind animation canceling, and instead demand a fix for the inaccurate programming that gave rise to it.

The first sentence of yours I placed in bold does not change anything. Maybe it is how you worded it that does not convey any change in animations being longer than required for the skill.

1. not true
2. not true
3. not sure but considering the first two were not correct I expect the same is for here.

Nice post though and good try.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

I'm not on about abolishing it, I am on about if the game should be balanced around it.

In the times of old we used to have trials which could be cleared by a dedicated group reasonably well without being the very top end or requiring animation cancelling.

However now ZOS is pushing AC as a mechanic and encouraging weaving to be core gameplay, this means that it's now becoming an expectation to be able to do that and the game can be balanced around it.

I've also been an advocate for not making it a core mechanic because it pushes people with physical disabilities away from content they might have been able to previously achieve. Feanor has pointed out there are some accessible builds however so it might just be getting this knowledge into the hands of players.

There is a place for it being in the game and letting those who do it score better, run faster and have an easier time. If ZOS tries to match the content to those people though it leaves a damn lot more of the games population behind and continues to push the gap between good players and great players.

And this is where we differ. I fully acknowledge you point and agree to it to some degree. I´d just not pull the line at Score runs but some point before that. At DLC Trials. This is where a high degree of skill is needed. And this should be for the dedicated players who put in the effort, meaning players who learn how to weave/AC, whatever you want to call it.

You rightly say that ZOS now has AC as an expectation. And I agree that starting with (vet) DLC Trials (excluding Craglorn), weaving is important. But given how long ago weaving/AC was "introduced", I dont see why people still oppose it.

To the physical disabilities part. This is true and I feel bad for arguing about this point, however the game should not be designed about a minority. Since these degrees of disabilities vary even a fast paced rotation with no weaving can pose a challenge to some. One might argue that the general gameplay pace could be toned down so we would have near full inclusion, however the overwhelming majority of players prefers a face paced playstyle. Many many complained about the heavy attack meta from Morrowind because it was slowing down the game pace. So you have to make a wager between including the minority or maddening your majority. So I´m going with barring some players from playing the very endgame content.

It is also true that a very long time ago we did content without the need to weave. However - as with scaling in homestead and resource management in Morrowind - things changed. So treat this as one of those game changers. And like I said, 95% of the game are accessible without weaving. The only thing not doable are DLC vet trials and certain vet dungeons on HM. Questing, dungeon, even most vet dungeons, all normal trials including some vet trials... everything can be done without weaving.

I dont want the game to be "dumbed down" (I was really looking for a non-insulting way to phrase this) because people don´t manage to click a light attack before using a skill.

Would you be more okay with weaving if there was an ingame help article and a section in the tutorial about it? Because right now the only way to learn about it is to actively look for ways to increase dps, meaning asking guilds/reading guides which should definitely be handled way better. It is definitely an advanced mechanic, thats why I don´t see it in the "first 10 minutes of the game basic tutorial", however at some point (maybe around lvl 15- weapon swap) there could be a quest where this concept is introduced in form of a quest. I definitely would like to see that and it would be a good way to bridge the gap from good to great players.

(Edited for clarity, to clean up some horrible grammar and put in the part about disabilities)

ZOS will NEVER put in any explanations about weaving (the kind of weaving where you clip the LA animation and actually gain dps) or animation cancelling because the core concept is ridiculous from a game design standpoint. What game is going to advocate clipping their own animations to push your damage numbers up? That'd be like Nintendo making tutorials about how to bomb jump and hop-run in the old Zelda games.

Can you imagine the backlash in the general gaming community that such a tutorial would create? You know, where things like animation cancelling don't exist outside of fighting games? I tried explaining animation cancelling to my gaming friends who don't play ESO and they said it sounded like literal cancer mixed with art-ism (spelled that wrong, you get the idea).

The fact that they've acknowledged the "mechanic" at all is deeply troubling and the fact that they've started tuning content around it is equally troubling.

The explanation is rather simple.

1. Skills have a required GCD that must complete for the skill to fire and this is not tied to the animation.
2. Being able to block, and more at full speed is required for playing this game. Being locked in an animation would be deadly.

As a result we may block at any time. If the GCD, or longer required time for activated abilities, has passed the skill fired, If not the skill does not fire.

That is why it persists.

Many games have simplistic defense mechanisms such as percentage shield and dodge chance build in. Their damage is more cartoonish in that it is merely move out of red and the healer can keep you up. ESO is not very forgiving on damage. Most players that die died because they messed up, not because of the healers.

geøstigma · May 2018

Animation canceling is what eventually gets embraced and acknowledged as 'skill' in pretty much every multiplayer game and as much as I don't like it, sadly it is how it is and I don't think anyone knows how or even bothers to figure out how to fix that.

People say it's what separates 'pro' from the average player but I honestly see it as breaking and abusing the unintended consequences of an imperfect game mechanic. However...
Given how slow the combat system feels to me and how we only get to use 12 skills in total by pressing a single button during the encounter, I don't really mind this 'weaving'.

Still, I'm completely unaware if there is anything other than weaving that actually consists of animation canceling and further abuse of the combat system...

Aurielle · May 2018

nekura wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

Your petulance is noted. I work in the industry and as is common you make your big hires early on, create the game and then go into maintenance. I think most know that 'anim canceling' was previously considered an exploit, and then adopted officially, because ZOS will not prioritize nor has the resources to fix what is a long-standing failure in their game.

What is relevant is that this will never be addressed - it's far too late in the game.

What do you do about it? Macro it like everyone else in the game does; do it manually to a greater effect even though it's incredibly tedious; consider finding another game.

[edit] OP : I just want to add that I refuse to recommend this game to any of my DAoC friends because of anim canceling.

/end

Actually, it has been addressed, @nekura. Animation cancelling was a different beast entirely early on in the game. Changes were made to animation priorities circa Thieves Guild. Not everyone liked those changes:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279855/why-i-dislike-the-new-animation-prioritization-system/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245611/animation-cancelling

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269850/new-animations-are-slow-players-are-now-constrained-by-the-combat-system-instead-of-personal-skill/p1

You think animation cancelling is bad NOW? All those old videos on YouTube that people watch and complain about in the forums today are reflective of an older system that was significantly faster/more responsive. People wrongfully believe that in the current build of the game, you can die in PVP in one second without seeing a single animation that you can react to "because animation cancelling." More animations are forced to play out with the animation priority system than these players realize. The ONLY animations I don't see in my current setup are the recovery animations of my light attacks, and the recovery animation of Volatile Familiar. I see everything else. My animation cancelling, such as it is, has a minimal impact on my DPS.

People really need to stop watching old videos, reading old threads, and complaining about stuff that doesn't even apply to the current build of the game...

Seri · June 2018

nekura wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You realize Block cancelling is only good, well, if you need to block, right? Otherwise, it servers no purpose.

And you can't shorten a heavy attack and still get resources. It has to be a full.

Shorten it, it becomes a medium, and no resource return (again, zero purpose unless restarting your rotation).

1) Anim canceling with block really has nothing to do with blocking. You are only blocking for milliseconds.

And? You still can't go any quicker than the GCD and are forced to wait out the time of the block animation (I know some instances abort the block animation before it finishes moving to the 'block' stance, but there's still the 'reset' and still no GCD bypass.

nekura wrote: »

2) I'm assuming you've never seen this, or else you wouldn't be misinformed.

I don't see how you can use that argument that a heavy attack can be shortened? If you know your weapon, you can know roughly how long is required to get a resource restore. As long as you let go after that minimum period, you can use a skill, barswap, or block to weave in and 'cancel' the followthrough/recovery part of the animation.

The 'top streamers' have been playing a long time - they are very well aware of game mechanics. I don't stream, nor do I macro, and it's second nature for me to LA weave every skill, and block or barswap a few of the longer animated items (warhorn, barrier, dawnbreaker, wall of elements) through habit.

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO · June 2018

nekura wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Macro? As in program it into your skills via your keyboard software? Dont!
Its against TOS and might ban you. Not everyone does that. Basically noone does that, at least noone who wants to keep their account. What gives you the impression that people macro that?

I'm not hating on you for not knowing, but if you watch any of the top streamers for this game they macro. It's pretty obvious when you know what to look for. LA weaves, canceling with block / interrupt, heavy attacks to get resources are all considerably shorter than their animations -- those are all commonly macro'd and they won't ban you for it.

Ummm... no... if have seen people like Alcast and Gilliamtherogue say things like: "I messed up some weaves there" which indicates they are doing it manually. They just have gotten very very good given the time they play and do dummy parses for their theorycrafting. If I were to do 4 to 6 hours of dummy parses for several day to test new sets in serveral combinations I´d be hell of good in clipping and weaving as well.
These guys simply are that good. No macros. Macros are using 3rd party software to improve your performance in the game. No way in hell ZOS will let that be.

But I have to admit, just by a quick google I could not find a statement from ZOS that explicitly says macros are forbidden.
But why would they, its all in their TOS:

"You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax."

Sure some people use macros but usually not the pros because they wont risk their accounts. If you want to risk yours feel free to do so. All I can say its against ZOS TOS so they legally have the right to ban you for it.

nekura · June 2018

Seri wrote: »

I don't see how you can use that argument that a heavy attack can be shortened? If you know your weapon, you can know roughly how long is required to get a resource restore. As long as you let go after that minimum period, you can use a skill, barswap, or block to weave in and 'cancel' the followthrough/recovery part of the animation.

Take Bow for example: 1600ms to full heavy... that's full damage gained from heavy as well as the resource restore. You can potentially hold it until 2400ms where you will accrue neither additional damage or additional resources restored. So, 800ms you are standing there holding HA. Your walk speed is reduced as is your ability to LoS or use other skills. (e:) You also open yourself up longer to be interrupted.

The same goes for all other weapons. This is both an increase in DPS and tactical advantage in PvP.

The homie that did these tests macro'd down to 100ms increments to find these results.

If you don't think PvPers, who will do most anything for an advantage, are not macro'ing on a mass scale than we are not playing the same game. ZOS did this to themselves with poor game design.

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Ummm... no... if have seen people like Alcast and Gilliamtherogue say things like: "I messed up some weaves there" which indicates they are doing it manually. They just have gotten very very good given the time they play and do dummy parses for their theorycrafting. If I were to do 4 to 6 hours of dummy parses for several day to test new sets in serveral combinations I´d be hell of good in clipping and weaving as well.
These guys simply are that good. No macros. Macros are using 3rd party software to improve your performance in the game. No way in hell ZOS will let that be.

Sure some people use macros but usually not the pros because they wont risk their accounts. If you want to risk yours feel free to do so. All I can say its against ZOS TOS so they legally have the right to ban you for it.

I don't care about PvE'ers... at all. Watch the try-hard PvP'ers on Twitch. Most of them are macro'ing, but it's not like it really gives you an advantage. The absolute worst that could be considered an exploit would be LA>Skill>Bash, all three of those will go off in the same GCD. The most common macros are LA>Skill or Skill>Block.

ZOS is already more lenient with cheaters than most games. They have given out suspensions (not bans) for CE. Yes, macro'ing is against the TOS, but they just don't and will not ban for it. They won't even ban all of the bots in PvE.

idk · June 2018

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

nekura wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Macro? As in program it into your skills via your keyboard software? Dont!
Its against TOS and might ban you. Not everyone does that. Basically noone does that, at least noone who wants to keep their account. What gives you the impression that people macro that?

I'm not hating on you for not knowing, but if you watch any of the top streamers for this game they macro. It's pretty obvious when you know what to look for. LA weaves, canceling with block / interrupt, heavy attacks to get resources are all considerably shorter than their animations -- those are all commonly macro'd and they won't ban you for it.

Ummm... no... if have seen people like Alcast and Gilliamtherogue say things like: "I messed up some weaves there" which indicates they are doing it manually. They just have gotten very very good given the time they play and do dummy parses for their theorycrafting. If I were to do 4 to 6 hours of dummy parses for several day to test new sets in serveral combinations I´d be hell of good in clipping and weaving as well.
These guys simply are that good. No macros. Macros are using 3rd party software to improve your performance in the game. No way in hell ZOS will let that be.

But I have to admit, just by a quick google I could not find a statement from ZOS that explicitly says macros are forbidden.
But why would they, its all in their TOS:

"You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax."

Sure some people use macros but usually not the pros because they wont risk their accounts. If you want to risk yours feel free to do so. All I can say its against ZOS TOS so they legally have the right to ban you for it.

This is correct. Besides, unless a steamer specifically says they use macros to fight, gets stuck in a macro (probably embarrassing) or you see them create a macro, one does not know they are using them.

and I agree that some lesser skilled players probably have used marcros but it is a risk they take since there are some instances that one can tell a macro was used.

SmellyUnlimited · June 2018

idk wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Weaving isn’t necessarily animation cancelling. The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage. If an animation gets cancelled that’s just a byproduct because of the mechanics.

The purpose of animation cancelling is shortening the animation of a skill because this gives an advantage in itself. An example is block cancelling (don’t have to drop block and thus still receive block mitigation) or making skills connect faster (Executioner) or hiding the animation completely (Dawnbreaker).

Weaving and animation cancelling go hand in hand often but yet are distinct regarding the purpose.

You just gave an excellent argument why it IS animation canceling. “The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage.“ No one disputes the fact that that’s the reason people USE animation canceling, but doesn’t address the actual issue: it’s exploiting the GCD to get an edge.

This is backwards. @SmellyUnlimited

The person you quoted has it a little backwards as well. The time to charge a light attack is minimal and the skill will fire while the animation is still occurring. It is not filling any part of a GCD as the time a light attack needs to be charged is defined in game as is the GCD for the skill.

No one is exploiting the GCD. AC cannot shorten the GCD of a skill and it start after the skill has been activated, which is after the light attack. It is the animation that is longer than the GCD and that extra length is all that is shortened.

Which is why Zos did not see a concern in changing it and blessed it as legitimate meaning it is not an exploit at all.

So what if attack animations were changed to make them look more fluid? Would that not change your argument? If the skill fired the second the animation was done occurring, would canceling thus be impossible? This now appears to be an aesthetic problem; attack animations aren’t being portrayed correctly, and thus canceling is a side effect of this.

I do have a problem with a lot of attack animation so in th game:

1. Dual wield light attacks look clunky and much harder to work in than staff light attacks
2. 2H ^^
2. Werewolf animations are completely off. The skill connects without the wolf’s arms actually connecting on target.

We should not be defending ‘weaving’ if the above is true. We should be petitioning for a revamp of attack animations that accurately depict an attack. Weaving in essence becomes a quasi”add-on.” It’s a player created fix for poor programming. So many add-ons are player’s taking it upon themselves to optimize or rectify inadequacies in the UI. Buff timers, combat metrics, etc.

Let’s not rally behind animation canceling, and instead demand a fix for the inaccurate programming that gave rise to it.

The first sentence of yours I placed in bold does not change anything. Maybe it is how you worded it that does not convey any change in animations being longer than required for the skill.

1. not true
2. not true
3. not sure but considering the first two were not correct I expect the same is for here.

Nice post though and good try.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

I'm not on about abolishing it, I am on about if the game should be balanced around it.

In the times of old we used to have trials which could be cleared by a dedicated group reasonably well without being the very top end or requiring animation cancelling.

However now ZOS is pushing AC as a mechanic and encouraging weaving to be core gameplay, this means that it's now becoming an expectation to be able to do that and the game can be balanced around it.

I've also been an advocate for not making it a core mechanic because it pushes people with physical disabilities away from content they might have been able to previously achieve. Feanor has pointed out there are some accessible builds however so it might just be getting this knowledge into the hands of players.

There is a place for it being in the game and letting those who do it score better, run faster and have an easier time. If ZOS tries to match the content to those people though it leaves a damn lot more of the games population behind and continues to push the gap between good players and great players.

And this is where we differ. I fully acknowledge you point and agree to it to some degree. I´d just not pull the line at Score runs but some point before that. At DLC Trials. This is where a high degree of skill is needed. And this should be for the dedicated players who put in the effort, meaning players who learn how to weave/AC, whatever you want to call it.

You rightly say that ZOS now has AC as an expectation. And I agree that starting with (vet) DLC Trials (excluding Craglorn), weaving is important. But given how long ago weaving/AC was "introduced", I dont see why people still oppose it.

To the physical disabilities part. This is true and I feel bad for arguing about this point, however the game should not be designed about a minority. Since these degrees of disabilities vary even a fast paced rotation with no weaving can pose a challenge to some. One might argue that the general gameplay pace could be toned down so we would have near full inclusion, however the overwhelming majority of players prefers a face paced playstyle. Many many complained about the heavy attack meta from Morrowind because it was slowing down the game pace. So you have to make a wager between including the minority or maddening your majority. So I´m going with barring some players from playing the very endgame content.

It is also true that a very long time ago we did content without the need to weave. However - as with scaling in homestead and resource management in Morrowind - things changed. So treat this as one of those game changers. And like I said, 95% of the game are accessible without weaving. The only thing not doable are DLC vet trials and certain vet dungeons on HM. Questing, dungeon, even most vet dungeons, all normal trials including some vet trials... everything can be done without weaving.

I dont want the game to be "dumbed down" (I was really looking for a non-insulting way to phrase this) because people don´t manage to click a light attack before using a skill.

Would you be more okay with weaving if there was an ingame help article and a section in the tutorial about it? Because right now the only way to learn about it is to actively look for ways to increase dps, meaning asking guilds/reading guides which should definitely be handled way better. It is definitely an advanced mechanic, thats why I don´t see it in the "first 10 minutes of the game basic tutorial", however at some point (maybe around lvl 15- weapon swap) there could be a quest where this concept is introduced in form of a quest. I definitely would like to see that and it would be a good way to bridge the gap from good to great players.

(Edited for clarity, to clean up some horrible grammar and put in the part about disabilities)

ZOS will NEVER put in any explanations about weaving (the kind of weaving where you clip the LA animation and actually gain dps) or animation cancelling because the core concept is ridiculous from a game design standpoint. What game is going to advocate clipping their own animations to push your damage numbers up? That'd be like Nintendo making tutorials about how to bomb jump and hop-run in the old Zelda games.

Can you imagine the backlash in the general gaming community that such a tutorial would create? You know, where things like animation cancelling don't exist outside of fighting games? I tried explaining animation cancelling to my gaming friends who don't play ESO and they said it sounded like literal cancer mixed with art-ism (spelled that wrong, you get the idea).

The fact that they've acknowledged the "mechanic" at all is deeply troubling and the fact that they've started tuning content around it is equally troubling.

The explanation is rather simple.

1. Skills have a required GCD that must complete for the skill to fire and this is not tied to the animation.
2. Being able to block, and more at full speed is required for playing this game. Being locked in an animation would be deadly.

As a result we may block at any time. If the GCD, or longer required time for activated abilities, has passed the skill fired, If not the skill does not fire.

That is why it persists.

Many games have simplistic defense mechanisms such as percentage shield and dodge chance build in. Their damage is more cartoonish in that it is merely move out of red and the healer can keep you up. ESO is not very forgiving on damage. Most players that die died because they messed up, not because of the healers.

Well, you’ve stated it’s not true, so thus I guess I have no argument. Never mind the fact that I stated those bullet points were from my own observations; I’ll try and remember to run my impressions by you before I start to think of them.

Also, your post is the best support for mine. You even said that the “additional” portion of the attack was what was being canceled; ergo, if there was NOT an additional portion, and instead the attack exactly as the motion should prescribe, there would be no ‘fluff.’ Which, if you’re following along, would mean there is nothing to cancel.

But by all means, make your cogent argument of “no!”

Heimpai · June 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

What’s with the rise I complaints about animation cancelling? You do not need to be good at it to do well. Most people are prevented from high end ac by latency anyway and plenty of AU and Asia players on NA complete all endgame content on vet HM. Just go through your rotation and light attack weave and don’t worry about it. Anyone should still be able to easily pull over 20-25k dps without animation cancelling as long as you know your build and CP and most importantly your rotation. And that’s enough dps for any content if you have a good group and know your mechanics.

I would love to get to high end someday and my latency is 90-120, too bad this is basically my first mmo and I’m complete trash at it..or it might have to do with going from console to pc and constantly hitting wrong keys, either way it bothers me that no matter how hard i try I’ll never get to end game

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO · June 2018

Heimpai wrote: »

I would love to get to high end someday and my latency is 90-120, too bad this is basically my first mmo and I’m complete trash at it..or it might have to do with going from console to pc and constantly hitting wrong keys, either way it bothers me that no matter how hard i try I’ll never get to end game

If you try hard you will. Just dedicate some time to it. Get 400 cheap trash pots. Get a 3 mil and 6 mil target dummy. Most guilds have them. Block 2 hours of time away. Get your gear and skills all set with a know build, something like Alcast.

Now train the laid out rotation. Do 30 Minutes on the 3mil dummy. Have a 10 minute break. Do 20 Minutes on the 6 mil Dummy. Have 10 minutes break. Do 20 minutes on the 3 mil dummy. Have 10 minutes break. Do 20 minutes on the 6 million dummy.

This is day one. You will have gotten better. Now do the same on day two, day three and day four. Yes, this is boring as sh*t. But you will have a perfect rotation in the end. Your dps will have gone up noticably.

Seri · June 2018

nekura wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

I don't see how you can use that argument that a heavy attack can be shortened? If you know your weapon, you can know roughly how long is required to get a resource restore. As long as you let go after that minimum period, you can use a skill, barswap, or block to weave in and 'cancel' the followthrough/recovery part of the animation.

Take Bow for example: 1600ms to full heavy... that's full damage gained from heavy as well as the resource restore. You can potentially hold it until 2400ms where you will accrue neither additional damage or additional resources restored. So, 800ms you are standing there holding HA. Your walk speed is reduced as is your ability to LoS or use other skills. (e:) You also open yourself up longer to be interrupted.

The same goes for all other weapons. This is both an increase in DPS and tactical advantage in PvP.

The homie that did these tests macro'd down to 100ms increments to find these results.

If you don't think PvPers, who will do most anything for an advantage, are not macro'ing on a mass scale than we are not playing the same game. ZOS did this to themselves with poor game design.

I can only speak on my own behalf, but IMO your example still doesn't prove that macros must be being used. My experience with both an inferno staff and dual-wield is that after some time with the weapons you can tell either from sound or animation how far into the wind-up you are. For the bow, that 800ms 'extra' is a full 50% increase in time upon the point of resource restore, which is quite noticeable - something like http://www.holdthebutton.com/ can give you an idea on how much longer 2.4s feels vs 1.6s (and that's without the visual cue to help judge it).

As for your belief that the majority of the PvP community macros because of what you see with light or heavy weaving clipping, I'd disagree. There may be arguments that some people macro a block-cancel or bash-cancel (and also arguments that too many people claim cheating even if the person is not), but not that they can't tell the difference between a 1.6 and 2.4s weapon attack. I also disagree with your logic that this is a PvP specific 'issue' too, given that any tactical benefit for PvP also exists in PvE (resource return, higher DPS, tactical advantage in not being pinned to a location, etc).