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How are magicka classes supposed to stay alive?

  • ManDraKE
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    Kinnahz wrote: »
    You can still shield up... There is just a cast time of 1 second and tbh that's really not an issue

    That will result in a huge DPS loss, and many times, you need to cast shields on a whim.

    not trying to defend the cast time in shields here but lets be honest, the only class that will really suffer this is magika sorc ( and maybe magwarden if there is someone still playing that class, not counting debuff ice tanks lol). Neither magplar, magdk or magblade really need Harness to survive. While you can play shield builds with them, they are not really mandatory and in most of the cases they are outperform by non-shields builds.
    Edited by ManDraKE on September 18, 2018 5:02AM
  • fred4
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    Kinnahz wrote: »
    You can still shield up... There is just a cast time of 1 second and tbh that's really not an issue
    You don't PvP on a light armor build.
    Edited by fred4 on September 18, 2018 5:50AM
  • _Ahala_
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    ManDraKE wrote: »
    Kinnahz wrote: »
    You can still shield up... There is just a cast time of 1 second and tbh that's really not an issue

    That will result in a huge DPS loss, and many times, you need to cast shields on a whim.

    not trying to defend the cast time in shields here but lets be honest, the only class that will really suffer this is magika sorc ( and maybe magwarden if there is someone still playing that class, not counting debuff ice tanks lol). Neither magplar, magdk or magblade really need Harness to survive. While you can play shield builds with them, they are not really mandatory and in most of the cases they are outperform by non-shields builds.

    I play a Magden in PvP and I can assure you this change will hurt like hell... I said last week “This patch will show what zos thinks of their Magden community”... I think we got our answer
  • BigBragg
    BigBragg
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    "Ice staff blocking." -Zenimax
  • lassitershawn
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    Kinnahz wrote: »
    This 'nerf' to shields and the sentiment across the board is very reminiscent of (correct me if im wrong on this one) Thieves guild patch when the time of the shields were dropped to 6s and people cried bloody murder for weeeeeeks only for Sorc to be the top PvE DPS for months there after.

    A good player will adapt and overcome, this isn't the end for sorc.

    Yea but good players generally didn't see that as a huge issue because shields don't last 6 seconds when you need them. Virtually all endgame PvEers and sane PvPers see this nerf as a huge issue.
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  • Bakkagami
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    JarlUlfric wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Dodging and blocking requires stamina and stamina regen, which magicka classes don't have.

    Magicka classes had shields before, which consumed magicka. With shields being effectively removed from the game, we are defenseless.

    Sorc - streak into ward (even if they bash the first one u have 6 seconds for the next)

    templar - purge + heal, don't use wards much anyway but cc into ward if u want

    magblade - cloak or shade both give u separation and time to ward

    warden - kinda screwed with this one since they lack a good cc or sure evasion but they have great sustained healing to help
    them not get into a bad situation
    dragonknight - so many heal options if played well/doesn't have harsh dependency on wards.

    All of the above: healing ward doesn't have a cast time so it still makes a great emergency ward.

    ps. Wards weren't removed, they just made it so spamming them doesn't all of a sudden turn u into a tank with no need to spec into survivability.

    Except that Healing Ward does diddly poo now that you can crit it. I've tested it, it's gone before you can even line something up offensively. Light Armor pvp builds are dead my dude.

    Popping the ward while standing there and continuing to try to facetank damage won't get you anywhere, you aren't a tank. This change encourages LA users to relocate more and avoid damage rather than soak it up with wards like a tank.

    That being said I'd be fine if they reverted the crit change. Introducing both at the same time was a bit heavy handed. They don't need to revert the cast time or it'll just devolve back into face tanking with 2 - 3 wards, with the only change being LA users slotting more impreg.
  • yahuhu
    yahuhu
    Use the brain. He helped humanity survive for years ...
  • haelene
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    yahuhu wrote: »
    Use the brain. He helped humanity survive for years ...

    Oh yes, my incredible intellect will sure stop PvE bosses with little to no tell from killing me with a one shot before I can get up my shield. I forgot we all have the choice to out wit them. My bad entirely.

    :|
  • MLGProPlayer
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    yahuhu wrote: »
    Use the brain. He helped humanity survive for years ...

    So what you're saying is I need to get a degree in computer science and apply for a job at ZOS so I can fix their broken game? Sounds reasonable.
  • swirve
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    Its partly a l2p issue... if you know mechanics then you shouldnt need shields in most parts of trials and especially with a semi competent healer.
    Edited by swirve on September 18, 2018 7:06AM
  • MLGProPlayer
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Kinnahz wrote: »
    You can still shield up... There is just a cast time of 1 second and tbh that's really not an issue
    You don't PvP on a light armor build.

    Or PvE.

    It must be great when all you do is overland questing and normal dungeons. You don't get stressed over game-breaking nerfs and the like.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 18, 2018 7:05AM
  • ccmedaddy
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    Minno wrote: »
    Alaztor91 wrote: »
    This is a buff if you use iceheart. Seriously.

    Or any other free shield set lol
    I might actually try the Combat Physician + Spector's Eye combo lmao
  • craftycarper73
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    Elder Farming/Crafting/Housing Online
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  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    ManDraKE wrote: »
    Kinnahz wrote: »
    You can still shield up... There is just a cast time of 1 second and tbh that's really not an issue

    That will result in a huge DPS loss, and many times, you need to cast shields on a whim.

    not trying to defend the cast time in shields here but lets be honest, the only class that will really suffer this is magika sorc ( and maybe magwarden if there is someone still playing that class, not counting debuff ice tanks lol). Neither magplar, magdk or magblade really need Harness to survive. While you can play shield builds with them, they are not really mandatory and in most of the cases they are outperform by non-shields builds.

    There is no such thing as a "shield build". You slot harness magicka to mitigate damage in certain fights. It's mandatory on every magicka class for endgame content.
  • Silver_Strider
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    Are we talking PvE or PvP?

    In PvP, y'all screwed. Maybe invest into some tri-stat enchants and make some builds with Ice Staves to try your luck with that.

    In PvE, it's really no different than the current state of Stamina builds in end game, which is to say end game is going to be dead AF unless people start making some serious sacrifices elsewhere. I'm talking DPS actually needing to invest into Health, Healers dropping Warhorn for Barrier with Gossamer on top for extra protection, Warden/Templar/NB DPS using Northern Storm/Nova/Veil as their go to ultimates just to survive, Tanks running Bone Shield being outright required, Circle of Protection being used liberally, etc. etc. etc.

    It will be glorious anarchy once Murkmire hits and I'm actually looking forward to how the game will shift as a result.
    No, I do not support the 1 second cast time. I felt the rest of the changes to shields were fair and good enough to balance them out. I do however, look forward to how the meta will adapt to these changes should they go live, if it doesn't outright kill the end game community that is.
    Argonian forever
  • Gnozo
    Gnozo
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    Welcome to Magplars world

    Ehm sorry what? When you get 1 second cast time to Breath of life we can Talk again.
  • MLGProPlayer
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    In PvE, it's really no different than the current state of Stamina builds in end game, which is to say end game is going to be dead AF unless people start making some serious sacrifices elsewhere. I'm talking DPS actually needing to invest into Health, Healers dropping Warhorn for Barrier with Gossamer on top for extra protection, Warden/Templar/NB DPS using Northern Storm/Nova/Veil as their go to ultimates just to survive, Tanks running Bone Shield being outright required, Circle of Protection being used liberally, etc. etc. etc.

    Magicka classes can only block or dodge twice before running out of stamina. And with no stamina regen, it takes a while to regenerate. Magicka classes were explicitly designed by ZOS to use shields for damage mitigation. They simply cannot rely on block/dodge.

    Putting points into stamina results in a HUGE DPS loss. Swapping out 10k magicka for 10k stamina, for example, would be the equivalent of around 1k spell damage. This would put magicka DPS at under 30k.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 18, 2018 7:41AM
  • Silver_Strider
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    In PvE, it's really no different than the current state of Stamina builds in end game, which is to say end game is going to be dead AF unless people start making some serious sacrifices elsewhere. I'm talking DPS actually needing to invest into Health, Healers dropping Warhorn for Barrier with Gossamer on top for extra protection, Warden/Templar/NB DPS using Northern Storm/Nova/Veil as their go to ultimates just to survive, Tanks running Bone Shield being outright required, Circle of Protection being used liberally, etc. etc. etc.

    Magicka classes can only block or dodge twice before running out of stamina. And with no stamina regen, it takes a while to regenerate. Magicka classes were explicitly designed by ZOS to use shields for damage mitigation. They simply cannot rely on block/dodge.

    Putting points into stamina results in a HUGE DPS loss. Swapping out 10k magicka for 10k stamina, for example, would be the equivalent of around 1k spell damage. This would put magicka DPS at under 30k.

    Fail to see how this relates to my comment at all but I'll bite. Blocking/dodging doesn't save stamina builds at all in PvE trials. Most damage is unavoidable and blocking cuts off your regen entirely and lowers your DPS already because of it. That's why I'm saying, from a PvE standpoint, drastic measures are going to be needed should these changes go live. Shields will become irrelevant and both Stamina and Magic DPS are going to have to adjust their current set ups to even be able to perform well in end game to a point that it potentially goes against absolutely EVERYTHING that we normally do. No more 64 points into your main resource; you're going to have to sacrifice some for health. No more selfish DPS builds; you'll have to use those mostly worthless support skills, like Circle of Protection, just for a chance to survive.

    These changes are devastating to the game as a whole because it alienates End Game content in such a way that it requires specialized builds just to stand a chance and will make or break end game PvE as we know it.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on September 20, 2018 10:28AM
    Argonian forever
  • aetherial_heavenn
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    Having a healer..

    1. Healers use shields too in hard trials content.
    2. Mag can,t sustain indefinate block and dodge roll forever.
    3. The cast time for high ping players will mean insta death.
    4. And none of this fixes the problem of healers being unnnecessary....because one shots gonna one shot and high dps is still going to bipass mechanics on normal and some vet. My healer is carried thru vet wgt. My dps don't even need to deal with the portals. WE just burn stuff down. Including second last boss. DPS doesn't even have to slot shields, just pop vigour. My role is debuff and boost dps in most non trial content.
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  • fred4
    fred4
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    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Popping the ward while standing there and continuing to try to facetank damage won't get you anywhere, you aren't a tank. This change encourages LA users to relocate more and avoid damage rather than soak it up with wards like a tank.
    A very simplistic viewpoint. Relocating doesn't stop ranged damage. If you are talking about dodge rolling, which actually avoids damage, no way. That's a medium armor playstyle. Light armor builds do not have the stamina sustain for that, nor for sprinting.

    IMO the cast time makes shields unworkable, not to mention that anything with a cast time sucks from an enjoyment perspective. I don't play sorc, by the way. I'm talking about magblade, magplar, magden. Now look where magplar is at today, in PvP. You can play it with Dampen Magic, but if you don't, you need to spec heavily into mitigation. Honor the Dead is a reactive heal. You need to be tanky, so you are not backed into a corner spamming it every other second. That's what I'm afraid we'll end up with. Healing Ward may be a little better, but it is also a reactive heal at the end of the day. RIP light armor.

    The crit and resistance changes mean that both crit and penetration will matter against shields. I don't know what to make of that. It should reduce the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the game, which could be a good thing. My gut feeling is that shields will need a slight buff to go along with these changes, or stamblades will rip light armor builds to pieces. I hope they've done the math on that. Light armor builds will all want to get Major Ward / Resolve. Armor Master may become popular.
    Edited by fred4 on September 18, 2018 8:31AM
  • Maryal
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    Dodging and blocking requires stamina and stamina regen, which magicka classes don't have.

    Magicka classes had shields before, which consumed magicka. With shields being effectively removed from the game, we are defenseless.

    Guess magica builds will have to do what stamina build do ... make sure your build to have both resources. Welcome to the club!
  • haelene
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    Maryal wrote: »
    Dodging and blocking requires stamina and stamina regen, which magicka classes don't have.

    Magicka classes had shields before, which consumed magicka. With shields being effectively removed from the game, we are defenseless.

    Guess magica builds will have to do what stamina build do ... make sure your build to have both resources. Welcome to the club!

    Stamina doesn't have to build for magicka....? Or am I out of the loop. I haven't played a stam character in a while.
  • Maryal
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    Well, yeah, there are plenty of builds that do ... but it depends on if/how often you want to use cloak, refreshing path, shadow image, etc.
    Edited by Maryal on September 18, 2018 8:36AM
  • haelene
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    Maryal wrote: »
    Well, yeah, some builds do ... depends on if/how often you want to use cloak, refreshing path, shadow image, etc.

    I've literally never come across a build that suggests you do this in PvE for dps. Ever. I'm genuinely curious where this build is, because as far as I've seen in, hybrid builds are super rare in PvE. I'm not talking about meta here, either I'm talking about general viability.

    Also - you can dodge roll, and have a stamina heal so... I'm confused why you would build it that way to begin with. Don't get me wrong, I would adore hybrids being viable - but they're just not, unless there's a magic build I don't know about. If you know it, please point me to it!
  • fred4
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    Maryal wrote: »
    Dodging and blocking requires stamina and stamina regen, which magicka classes don't have.

    Magicka classes had shields before, which consumed magicka. With shields being effectively removed from the game, we are defenseless.

    Guess magica builds will have to do what stamina build do ... make sure your build to have both resources. Welcome to the club!
    That is not a valid comparison. I run Shacklebreaker + 1 mag regen enchant on my stam DK for 800 mag regen, in PvP, so I can run wings with a half-decent uptime. That's nice, but it is not a necessity.

    I run Shacklebreaker + NB passives on my magblade for similar stam regen, just so that I can get by. The stamina is essential. If you can't break free, you are dead.
    Edited by fred4 on September 18, 2018 8:52AM
  • Mystrius_Archaion
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    In PvE, it's really no different than the current state of Stamina builds in end game, which is to say end game is going to be dead AF unless people start making some serious sacrifices elsewhere. I'm talking DPS actually needing to invest into Health, Healers dropping Warhorn for Barrier with Gossamer on top for extra protection, Warden/Templar/NB DPS using Northern Storm/Nova/Veil as their go to ultimates just to survive, Tanks running Bone Shield being outright required, Circle of Protection being used liberally, etc. etc. etc.

    Magicka classes can only block or dodge twice before running out of stamina.

    Wrong. Block is way cheaper than roll dodge. They can still block pretty often.
    The trouble is break-free and roll dodge which cost about the same, and drain way too much. Break-free still is used just as often though as they need to and they still survive.

    By the way, most of the time you can actually block for much cheaper something that would stun you and force you to break free if you miss the interrupt, so it is better to block than try and fail to interrupt because you're too far away to bash and need to break free.
    I do this often for those melee enemies that back up and send that stunning vines thing.

    People need to learn to play and stop exaggerating about the cost of things like block.

    Edit:
    Yes, block costs a lot if you keep holding it because it stops stamina regen, or magicka with frost staff and the passive, but you don't need to hold it as any character. Just block the big hit you can't avoid or would interrupt a cast and then use self-healing or cast damage shields for the rest.
    Simple as that.
    Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on September 18, 2018 9:01AM
  • ExcaliburESO
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    @MLGProPlayer
    Ez m8 u have to invest into resist and hp also dont forget most magicka classes that used (exploited all the benefits of shieldstacking) have escape skills (cloak streak) , also since ur SPS will be lower (SPS stands for shield per second) u dont need to have that much magicka sustain invest more in resist healing max hp and u will be fine yes u wont have ez pz 2 click kills but well noone except shield stacker had it. Welcome to the world of templars wardens and dk boys!
  • Gythral
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    They are now required to dualbox, with a healer on the 2nd box :wink:
    “Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
    Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
    Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy
  • fred4
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    Maryal wrote: »
    Well, yeah, there are plenty of builds that do ... but it depends on if/how often you want to use cloak, refreshing path, shadow image, etc.
    I think cloaking PvP stamblades are an untypical example of stamina builds in general. Yes they do need decent mag regen. Refreshing Path, though? As a stamblade? Fear and Shadow Image ... sure.

    I was using Fossilize and wings on stam DK for a time, which was also quite hard on mag sustain. My point would be that these are specific builds. Having played stamina first, nothing prepared me for how constrained stamina is on a magicka class. I soon learnt that I better shield and reserve my stamina exclusively for break free and Forward Momentum. It's a hard and fast rule that isn't always true, but for decent opponents who CC on cooldown, and possibly root as well, it is completely true. You might also need to dodge roll out of that meteor, regardless of shield. Not having stamina is life or death for a magicka character in a way that not having magicka, as a stamina character, just isn't.

    Anyway, where were we going with this?
  • Rex-Umbra
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    Pve its a buff pvp its more balanced. 100% into offensive should be invincible.
    Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
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