Bleeds Are Overpowered

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2018

milllaurie wrote: »

Last time I checked theres this skill called Purge available to ALL CLASSES. You can find it under "Alliance war" - "Support". It not only removes 2 negative effects for you - it cleanses your group too.
I can't believe people are ignoring it for most of the time.
Next time take a good look what that unkillable warden is running - oh right, that's purge.
Farmer group in a resource tower - at least one of them has purge slotted.
I could never say bleeds are op in my stamblade. On squishy toons any damage is op. But when running my dk tank I really don't like any damage that ignores my resistances, so I like to have a reliable way to cleanse myself.

For those who want to say "oh but I don't have a slot for purge" - ditch something then. Ditch shuffle, or anything it's completely up to you. Purging saves your butt. You have a tool to counter bleeds and really any dots. You can choose to use it or not.

You're a funny one, aren't you? A clueless but funny one.

1) Alliance purge is too costly for any stam build + the removal of only a few effects doesn't garantuee that bleeds or dots in general will get cleansed. What am I supposed to do, spam that 5k mag skill on a toon that has around 10-13k mag, which is also needed for other utility skills? Before you come up with "just invest more into mag" you should mind that no-cp/ BG don't grant you free 20% more resources, so even 13k mag are almost 4k investment into the off-resource, which could otherwise go into health or stamina (for better heals).

2) Deslot shuffle for purge? Yes, because only dots are a threat to medium armor builds, not any dodgeable direct damage, right? And while we're in low resist medium armor, we also drop Rally for Forward Momentum bc we need a snare removal especially bad in medium. Who needs a burst heal anyway?

3) "I could never say bleeds are op on my stamblade". No of course your nightblade doesn't suffer from any dots when he has a great way to surpress each and every dot + makes direct dmg miss with cloak.

But hey, at least you tried.

IZZEFlameLash · August 2018

milllaurie wrote: »

Last time I checked theres this skill called Purge available to ALL CLASSES. You can find it under "Alliance war" - "Support". It not only removes 2 negative effects for you - it cleanses your group too.
I can't believe people are ignoring it for most of the time.
Next time take a good look what that unkillable warden is running - oh right, that's purge.
Farmer group in a resource tower - at least one of them has purge slotted.
I could never say bleeds are op in my stamblade. On squishy toons any damage is op. But when running my dk tank I really don't like any damage that ignores my resistances, so I like to have a reliable way to cleanse myself.

For those who want to say "oh but I don't have a slot for purge" - ditch something then. Ditch shuffle, or anything it's completely up to you. Purging saves your butt. You have a tool to counter bleeds and really any dots. You can choose to use it or not.

-1/10 Rotten Bait.

But, by all means, spam purge. I like to fight someone low on resources.

Sharee · August 2018

milllaurie wrote: »

1) Alliance purge is too costly for any stam build + the removal of only a few effects doesn't garantuee that bleeds or dots in general will get cleansed.

Just to put things into perspective: i play a stamplar now who uses extended ritual, not purge, and i regularly still have to use it twice before i'm cleansed of everything, despite the spell cleansing five effects.

Trying to do it with an ability that only removes two while being more expensive is a lost cause.

olsborg · August 2018

Purge is a counter to nothing. Well if you get a cold once a month it would work.

ak_pvp · August 2018

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

Minno · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

Stigant · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

ak_pvp · August 2018

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.

They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

pieratsos · August 2018

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

Stigant · August 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

Shield and lower mitigation users aren't as effected equally bc they aren't sacrificing anything into resistance, which bleeds negate. Sure it does the same dmg, but it's by far less effective of a counter than to armor stacking builds bc of what they had to sacrifice to get that mitigation.

Waffennacht · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.
G
They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

What unblockable CCs? There's only petrify and rune cage

Edit: time stop does not count to me

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.
G
They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

What unblockable CCs? There's only petrify and rune cage

Edit: time stop does not count to me

Time stop is definitely 1 tho.. especially to permablockers who travel slow or drop block to get out

Stigant · August 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.
G
They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

What unblockable CCs? There's only petrify and rune cage

Edit: time stop does not count to me

Mass Hysteria

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

Stigant wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.
G
They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

What unblockable CCs? There's only petrify and rune cage

Edit: time stop does not count to me

Mass Hysteria

Turn undead

Minno · August 2018

Stigant wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.
G
They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

What unblockable CCs? There's only petrify and rune cage

Edit: time stop does not count to me

Mass Hysteria

I think he meant a direct cast unblockable/undodgeable CC where your target is going to accept that CC, even if he/she doesn't want to.

Speaking of OP un-counterable mechanics....

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

Minno wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.
G
They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

What unblockable CCs? There's only petrify and rune cage

Edit: time stop does not count to me

Mass Hysteria

I think he meant a direct cast unblockable/undodgeable CC where your target is going to accept that CC, even if he/she doesn't want to.

Speaking of OP un-counterable mechanics....

Not sure why or would matter otherwise. Only counter to fear is multiple ppl and rng. Xv1 that nb!!!

pieratsos · August 2018

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

Stigant · August 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

I originally reacted on the statement that rock paper scissors is a bad design ... from my experience with other RvR (AvA or however you want to call it) games that had that design, it works well ... and I don't agree that this approach takes away player skill.

It emphasizes the teamplay and players skill to do the right decisions and use their build (or class) to counter or focus on the right target at the right time etc.
For example a burst single target damage dealer's can be a counter to opponent team's healer and are supposed to do that so the rest of the team can pressure the test of the opponents team... Tank is usually counter to that , his job is for example peelig off the healer those baddies ... etc etc...

Rock Paper Scissors design promotes skillfull gameplay and doing right decisions at the right time from individuals to work well as a team... and against common opinion it even works in outnumbered fights... have seen it work in DAoC, WHO and couple other PvP team oriented games.

Waffennacht · August 2018

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.
G
They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

What unblockable CCs? There's only petrify and rune cage

Edit: time stop does not count to me

Mass Hysteria

Turn undead

I dunno how I forgot about fear...

But turn undead? ... No, just no

@Brutusmax1mus ... -_-;

pieratsos · August 2018

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

I originally reacted on the statement that rock paper scissors is a bad design ... from my experience with other RvR (AvA or however you want to call it) games that had that design, it works well ... and I don't agree that this approach takes away player skill.

It emphasizes the teamplay and players skill to do the right decisions and use their build (or class) to counter or focus on the right target at the right time etc.
For example a burst single target damage dealer's can be a counter to opponent team's healer and are supposed to do that so the rest of the team can pressure the test of the opponents team... Tank is usually counter to that , his job is for example peelig off the healer those baddies ... etc etc...

Rock Paper Scissors design promotes skillfull gameplay and doing right decisions at the right time from individuals to work well as a team... and against common opinion it even works in outnumbered fights... have seen it work in DAoC, WHO and couple other PvP team oriented games.

Then we have a very different definition of what rock paper scizzors means. If what you are saying is that rock paper scizzors is skillful gameplay like using the right skills as a group prioritizing targets etc then yes I agree with you. If it worked like that then u have skillful gameplay and u wouldn't actually have to balance around 1vx for example since that playstyle is built on skill so it would be self balanced.

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

Stigant · August 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

I originally reacted on the statement that rock paper scissors is a bad design ... from my experience with other RvR (AvA or however you want to call it) games that had that design, it works well ... and I don't agree that this approach takes away player skill.

It emphasizes the teamplay and players skill to do the right decisions and use their build (or class) to counter or focus on the right target at the right time etc.
For example a burst single target damage dealer's can be a counter to opponent team's healer and are supposed to do that so the rest of the team can pressure the test of the opponents team... Tank is usually counter to that , his job is for example peelig off the healer those baddies ... etc etc...

Rock Paper Scissors design promotes skillfull gameplay and doing right decisions at the right time from individuals to work well as a team... and against common opinion it even works in outnumbered fights... have seen it work in DAoC, WHO and couple other PvP team oriented games.

Then we have a very different definition of what rock paper scizzors means. If what you are saying is that rock paper scizzors is skillful gameplay like using the right skills as a group prioritizing targets etc then yes I agree with you. If it worked like that then u have skillful gameplay and u wouldn't actually have to balance around 1vx for example since that playstyle is built on skill so it would be self balanced.

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

I'm talking about Rock Paper Scissors design in general... in this game there is couple things here and there that remotely resemble that idea, but it's not a core design...

And for the last time NO, rock paper scissors is not a game of luck, it's a balance philosophy that works great for team play and promotes a good skilled team play and does not work at all for 1v1 ... I played some games with this approach as a core design philosophy for balancing and they worked great...

Edit: apologies to everyone for going too far off topic. This is the last post from me about RPS balancing.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze Quoting got messy, so i'll just tag.

You said, offense should outdo defense, and that is correct. However, offense shouldn't ignore defense completely, and if it does, it should have its own downsides. More on this further.

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine. Else shieldbreaker is good and fair design.
Its a free kill in that you plop it on someone who gets countered by it, and they either run or die. You didn't win because of skill, you won because they can do next to nothing about it. That is why certain procs are free kills and certain ones aren't.

So, your last paragraph mentioned things working in different ways. Things that work in different ways, like shields that you mentioned have their up sides and their down sides. It ignores pen/crit, but it takes full pen'd damage. Bleeds has no such downside for its consistency in its damage. You would expect a defense that is universal across shields/high/low resist targets to have the down side of being weaker damage wise, but, its not.
If you look at oblivion enchants, they are universal and ignore resist so their damage is locked and is often weaker than other enchants. Then look to prismatics, super limited in scope, but very strong when used.

As it stands, bleeds are overloaded in that they are cheap and easy to use. Completely ignore a large mechanic with no downsides. And have no counterplay for the many builds. What aedaryl was alluding to, though rather nonsensical because shields are fully pen'd, is right. Bleeds aren't limited for their level of strength, you'd expect an anti tank tool not to be as strong on non tanks as its tradeoff.

In some cases, builds running LA/MA can get just as tanky as HA builds through resists/crit heals. So having a bleed that ignores the easy stacking of armor, isn't terrible to have around. I almost feel as though bleeds were intended to combat the tanky-dmg oriented armor meta we have been having for some time now, at the expense of HA tanks not the other way around.

HA tanks already have counters in dots, on target bursts unblockable CCs, AoEs etc. Why do you think that light is meta on nearly all meg builds, and the most popular spec is stamina NB in medium. Heavy by itself sucks, its only the sets in stam that makes it decent.
G
They don't need another counter. Especially not a hard counter. And if they do, for some stupid reason, need another counter, it shouldn't be nearly this strong elsewhere. Bleeds are a cascade of overpowered mechanics without any semblance of balance.

What unblockable CCs? There's only petrify and rune cage

Edit: time stop does not count to me

Mass Hysteria

Turn undead

I dunno how I forgot about fear...

But turn undead? ... No, just no

@Brutusmax1mus ... -_-;

I actually had a magden using it last night in bgs against me in capture the flag. It was unreal how unexpected it was.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

I originally reacted on the statement that rock paper scissors is a bad design ... from my experience with other RvR (AvA or however you want to call it) games that had that design, it works well ... and I don't agree that this approach takes away player skill.

It emphasizes the teamplay and players skill to do the right decisions and use their build (or class) to counter or focus on the right target at the right time etc.
For example a burst single target damage dealer's can be a counter to opponent team's healer and are supposed to do that so the rest of the team can pressure the test of the opponents team... Tank is usually counter to that , his job is for example peelig off the healer those baddies ... etc etc...

Rock Paper Scissors design promotes skillfull gameplay and doing right decisions at the right time from individuals to work well as a team... and against common opinion it even works in outnumbered fights... have seen it work in DAoC, WHO and couple other PvP team oriented games.

Then we have a very different definition of what rock paper scizzors means. If what you are saying is that rock paper scizzors is skillful gameplay like using the right skills as a group prioritizing targets etc then yes I agree with you. If it worked like that then u have skillful gameplay and u wouldn't actually have to balance around 1vx for example since that playstyle is built on skill so it would be self balanced.

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

Only if you build that way though. Every class can be very well rounded. Damage Proc sets are not rock paper scissors either. Although they can be a bit excessive. Not 1 of the builds i run is hard countered to the point i can't fight anything doing a certain skill or tactic.

So running a build like full damage snipe who gets marked and dies to the other nightblade is a tradeoff they choose, not bad design. That opens up for great group game play as well, where you can have your weaknesses covered and essentially provide more worth than if you were solo. That's good design if you're trying to differentiate between classes and builds.

Minno · August 2018

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

I originally reacted on the statement that rock paper scissors is a bad design ... from my experience with other RvR (AvA or however you want to call it) games that had that design, it works well ... and I don't agree that this approach takes away player skill.

It emphasizes the teamplay and players skill to do the right decisions and use their build (or class) to counter or focus on the right target at the right time etc.
For example a burst single target damage dealer's can be a counter to opponent team's healer and are supposed to do that so the rest of the team can pressure the test of the opponents team... Tank is usually counter to that , his job is for example peelig off the healer those baddies ... etc etc...

Rock Paper Scissors design promotes skillfull gameplay and doing right decisions at the right time from individuals to work well as a team... and against common opinion it even works in outnumbered fights... have seen it work in DAoC, WHO and couple other PvP team oriented games.

Then we have a very different definition of what rock paper scizzors means. If what you are saying is that rock paper scizzors is skillful gameplay like using the right skills as a group prioritizing targets etc then yes I agree with you. If it worked like that then u have skillful gameplay and u wouldn't actually have to balance around 1vx for example since that playstyle is built on skill so it would be self balanced.

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

Only if you build that way though. Every class can be very well rounded. Damage Proc sets are not rock paper scissors either. Although they can be a bit excessive. Not 1 of the builds i run is hard countered to the point i can't fight anything doing a certain skill or tactic.

So running a build like full damage snipe who gets marked and dies to the other nightblade is a tradeoff they choose, not bad design. That opens up for great group game play as well, where you can have your weaknesses covered and essentially provide more worth than if you were solo. That's good design if you're trying to differentiate between classes and builds.

Honestly, idk why proc sets just cost resources on their cast. For a "resources are important" design intent, they sure have come up with ways to ignore it lol.

pieratsos · August 2018

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

I originally reacted on the statement that rock paper scissors is a bad design ... from my experience with other RvR (AvA or however you want to call it) games that had that design, it works well ... and I don't agree that this approach takes away player skill.

It emphasizes the teamplay and players skill to do the right decisions and use their build (or class) to counter or focus on the right target at the right time etc.
For example a burst single target damage dealer's can be a counter to opponent team's healer and are supposed to do that so the rest of the team can pressure the test of the opponents team... Tank is usually counter to that , his job is for example peelig off the healer those baddies ... etc etc...

Rock Paper Scissors design promotes skillfull gameplay and doing right decisions at the right time from individuals to work well as a team... and against common opinion it even works in outnumbered fights... have seen it work in DAoC, WHO and couple other PvP team oriented games.

Then we have a very different definition of what rock paper scizzors means. If what you are saying is that rock paper scizzors is skillful gameplay like using the right skills as a group prioritizing targets etc then yes I agree with you. If it worked like that then u have skillful gameplay and u wouldn't actually have to balance around 1vx for example since that playstyle is built on skill so it would be self balanced.

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

I'm talking about Rock Paper Scissors design in general... in this game there is couple things here and there that remotely resemble that idea, but it's not a core design...

And for the last time NO, rock paper scissors is not a game of luck, it's a balance philosophy that works great for team play and promotes a good skilled team play and does not work at all for 1v1 ... I played some games with this approach as a core design philosophy for balancing and they worked great...

Edit: apologies to everyone for going too far off topic. This is the last post from me about RPS balancing.

What do u mean no. It wasn't a question or a debate. I just told you what people mean when they say rock paper scizzors (in this game).

The person you responded to clearly stated rock paper scizzors gameplay is horrible cause someone shouldn't win just because his build happened to counter his opponents build. It's clear what he meant when he said rock paper scizzors. Whether you have a different definition of what rock paper scizzors means is kinda irrelevant. It's what he meant that is the point of the discussion. And what he meant has nothing to do with skillful gameplay prioritizing targets and team play.

LeifErickson · August 2018

I was just about to die (obviously since it's a death recap) and notice how his poison injection hits me for almost nothing even though it does considerable damage in execute while his bleed hits for way harder.

pieratsos · August 2018

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Rock paper scissors design is terrible, someone shouldn't win just because their build happens to go against mine.

I disagree... Rock Paper Scissors is a good design in every PvP game that emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play...
Then even your group composition matters, and what are you bringing into the team as a player as well. BGs and Cyrodiil are all about team play small or large scale... dueling in this game is just a additional feature imho and this game shouldn't be ever attempted to get balanced around 1v1...

ESO happens to be somewhere In the middle between trying to give you an option to have well rounded selfsustainable build and than introduces those Rock Paper Scissors sets and mechanics into the game ...

Solo/outnumbered/organized gameplay is built around player skill. You rely on skill to overcome the numbers for example. Rock paper scizzors is almost the exact opposite. It's pretty much a game of luck.

You can't say Rock paper scizzors is good for a game that emphasizes something like solo gameplay because they directly contradict each other.

I said it emphasizes Group/Team play over 1v1/solo play

Edit: please read post before quoting ... you 're basically going into an argument with someone whom you agree with

Right my bad on the solo part. Although I totally not agree with you. Not sure how you came up with that. Point still stands since outnumbered comes in group gameplay as well.

Also not sure how you came up with rock paper scizzors being good because it matters what you bring to the group as a player. If anything it seems to be the exact opposite cause that's the whole point of rock paper scizzors. It's not about the player, it's about the gear.

P. S. The devs stated multiple times that PVP is for everyone. So I'm confused as to why people keep playing that "PVP is for groups so solo should not be a part when it comes to balance" card.

I originally reacted on the statement that rock paper scissors is a bad design ... from my experience with other RvR (AvA or however you want to call it) games that had that design, it works well ... and I don't agree that this approach takes away player skill.

It emphasizes the teamplay and players skill to do the right decisions and use their build (or class) to counter or focus on the right target at the right time etc.
For example a burst single target damage dealer's can be a counter to opponent team's healer and are supposed to do that so the rest of the team can pressure the test of the opponents team... Tank is usually counter to that , his job is for example peelig off the healer those baddies ... etc etc...

Rock Paper Scissors design promotes skillfull gameplay and doing right decisions at the right time from individuals to work well as a team... and against common opinion it even works in outnumbered fights... have seen it work in DAoC, WHO and couple other PvP team oriented games.

Then we have a very different definition of what rock paper scizzors means. If what you are saying is that rock paper scizzors is skillful gameplay like using the right skills as a group prioritizing targets etc then yes I agree with you. If it worked like that then u have skillful gameplay and u wouldn't actually have to balance around 1vx for example since that playstyle is built on skill so it would be self balanced.

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

Only if you build that way though. Every class can be very well rounded. Damage Proc sets are not rock paper scissors either. Although they can be a bit excessive. Not 1 of the builds i run is hard countered to the point i can't fight anything doing a certain skill or tactic.

So running a build like full damage snipe who gets marked and dies to the other nightblade is a tradeoff they choose, not bad design. That opens up for great group game play as well, where you can have your weaknesses covered and essentially provide more worth than if you were solo. That's good design if you're trying to differentiate between classes and builds.

There is nothing good about mechanics that ignore the design of the game. Counters is one thing. That's the design of the game and that's good. Hard counters are not. Especially when they exist in a game with no actual limits (no softcaps) making them susceptible to be abused in conjuction with other things.

Sharee · August 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

You know what other game works like that?

EvE online. Try to go on their forum and tell them their gameplay isn't skilled.

I'll just go take cover

pieratsos · August 2018

Sharee wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

However this is not what we have. What we have is a mashup of one trick pony mechanics sets hard counters removing skill from the game. Rock paper scizzors means basically having a game of luck where fights are decided on whether ur build happens to counter their builds. You are not actually fighting other players but their sets. That really isn't promoting skilled gameplay.

You know what other game works like that?

EvE online. Try to go on their forum and tell them their gameplay isn't skilled.

I'll just go take cover

Cause obviously something working in one game means that it should work in every game lol.

Didn't you complain about bleeds tho? So what's ur point.