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Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap
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RodneyRegis✭✭✭✭✭I hate fake tanks as much as the next player (especially those who won't stand still!) Bit surely the point is that without them the queue for DD would be interminably longer? The cause needs fixing, not the symptom. Either the system needs an overhaul, or there needs to be a much greater incentive for people to level and play proper tanks.0 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭RodneyRegis wrote: »I hate fake tanks as much as the next player (especially those who won't stand still!) Bit surely the point is that without them the queue for DD would be interminably longer? The cause needs fixing, not the symptom. Either the system needs an overhaul, or there needs to be a much greater incentive for people to level and play proper tanks.
there never is enough insensitive,
I main tank, and have mained it since ff14
ff14 has the same issue with lack of tanks, and "fake" tanks. That game has clear cut jobs with clear cut roles. It has a 3 different types of tanks and healers. they added SO MUCH stuff to get people tom play tank, such as roulette with "in need" bonuses which rewards keep growing. Making the classes easier to play.
People don't play tank because of the responsibility, and people are quick the blame the tank for a run going south.
People don't want to he responsible of holding aggro.threat, enmity on mobs on top of needing to output high dps.
the only way for ppl to play tank, is remove the responsibility. just to put this more into perspective, ff14 has a high dps tank that is fun to play they made it super easy for this job ti pump out high numbers, and made it easy to hold enemies attention. yet only 10% of the community world wide only play tank.
SE tried making a much requested job into a tank, and this didn't increase the tank numbers.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.1 -
craftycarper73✭✭✭✭✭whats worse is the tank who doesnt keep still, now keep in mind im not talking about the top tier tanks who know there roll really really well and perform it top notch, im on about the tank who when you drop a destro ulti, liquid lightening, blockade and Ilambris procs and the tank moves the target out of the damage, i just leave the group at that point, whats the point in me putting out a load of damage if the tank cant hold the target.
And these are "proper" tanks.
I queue as a tank in normal dungeons on sorc, slot pets that generally tank the boss for me, yes there are times that it wont work, but the boss is normally gone in normal dungeons before you get a chance to tank anyway.Born, Bred & Made in Manchester UK, RIP 22 Angels. 22/05/2017
PC-EU
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That this is the place. We should give something back.
Always remember. Never forget. Forever Manchester.0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭RodneyRegis wrote: »I hate fake tanks as much as the next player (especially those who won't stand still!) Bit surely the point is that without them the queue for DD would be interminably longer? The cause needs fixing, not the symptom. Either the system needs an overhaul, or there needs to be a much greater incentive for people to level and play proper tanks.
The cause is two fold though.
1. Boss fights being designed around the trinity.
2. The community's obsession with the trinity."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭People who say they tank by sheer dps, don’t know how aggro works in this game. It’s not based on your dps, but damage timing. If you got aggro and you wanted it that was luck, not skill.
Taunting is the only reliable way to have aggro.
The game could actually check this. It knows when mobs are taunted obviously. It’s only on bosses that this is the biggest issue. Yeah on packs it helps, but it’s not 100% required.
What if the game tracks the tank and gives them helpful prompts. Say it says after a minute “you have not taunted this boss, it would help your team if you did”.
Then It checks again, if the boss is tauntable and you refuse to taunt the game knows. Maybe more prompts before suggesting if you don’t taunt you will no longer be allowed to queue as tank.
No player action needed. The game can do it all. And before somone says we like no tank in our groups, only do it in pugs.Edited by Guppet on August 22, 2018 9:34AM0 -
heartburnkid✭✭✭Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
If you don't enjoy tanking on this game then simply don't play as a tank. Problem solved. That's not a reason for someone to lie about their role and steal that spot from an actual tank. This isn't to mention they are cutting in line in front of other honest DPS characters - which isn't fair either.1 -
heartburnkid✭✭✭heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
If you don't enjoy tanking on this game then simply don't play as a tank. Problem solved. That's not a reason for someone to lie about their role and steal that spot from an actual tank. This isn't to mention they are cutting in line in front of other honest DPS characters - which isn't fair either.
I never have an issue getting into a dungeon as a tank though, it insta-pops. No ‘spot taking’ issues here.....0 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
Tanking in this game is much more involved than most MMO’s. It doesn’t need simplifying. No AOE taunts or AOE grabs. It would be even more boring then.
I guess it’s a case of you enjoy it and understand it or not. I level to level 10 then get to max by tanking (actual tanking) random instances. I love it and have Done that with DK, Templar and now Wardon at 42. Heck my main NB only tanks these days.
I just don’t think the game goes a good job of teaching people how to tank.
Tanks interact with mechanics far more than anyone else, they experience the content more than anyone. It’s not even challenging once your comfortable with it.
They just need to sell the concept better.0 -
swayx✭✭Azuramoonstar wrote: »there never is enough insensitive,
I main tank, and have mained it since ff14
ff14 has the same issue with lack of tanks, and "fake" tanks. That game has clear cut jobs with clear cut roles. It has a 3 different types of tanks and healers. they added SO MUCH stuff to get people tom play tank, such as roulette with "in need" bonuses which rewards keep growing. Making the classes easier to play.
People don't play tank because of the responsibility, and people are quick the blame the tank for a run going south.
People don't want to he responsible of holding aggro.threat, enmity on mobs on top of needing to output high dps.
the only way for ppl to play tank, is remove the responsibility. just to put this more into perspective, ff14 has a high dps tank that is fun to play they made it super easy for this job ti pump out high numbers, and made it easy to hold enemies attention. yet only 10% of the community world wide only play tank.
SE tried making a much requested job into a tank, and this didn't increase the tank numbers.
I guess you have a point. Responsibility sure is a fact why people dont play as a tank. They simply dont have enough confidence. But that works for like every MMO.
I guess, especially in ESO, its more about the use of tanks in everything else but raids/ dungeons. I mean ESO has so much solo content and its very comfortable to play with everything else but guess what: tanks. So for what kind of reason you should start play a tank? Except you are in a good guild and you want to play endgame content or realize somewhen that you dont need full tank specc to fullfill nearly everything beside raids. I mean its kinda boring and tiring to play solo content with a tank. In my opinion thats the reason in this dps and solo content focused game.
If you could just switch without much effort, there would be more "real" tanks i guess. Rift for example had this very great idea to have up to 5 Builds with one character. You could change ure role by one click, so nearly everyone was able to heal/ dps/ tank or support. And the game introduced this system very well so everybody knew about that possibility. I mean ofcourse, by getting every skyshard i can play a magplar as tank, heal and dps. But thats quite awkward and wont work for everything.
Its about the gameplay and the gameplay wont change so the problem cant be solved
Just make a tank yourself if u want to play pledges with a random group. I mean even as dps you only need some gear and skills for it to work.
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Thrain✭✭✭✭heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
Tanking sucks?
When your entire team dies and you are the last man standing, all enemies just beating the crap out of you, you dont even think about dying and save your whole group from a wipe....i woldnt say that this sucks
If you dont like to be the tank then ok its youre decision
But i hope for you that you got as much dps+sustain that it doesnt matter for your group if they got no tankEdited by Thrain on August 22, 2018 11:35AM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I always vote to kick fake dds because it’s important to not reward selfish behavior. And the only reason someone would queue as a fake dd is because they are very little impressive with their dps and dont think they would fit another role better.
Just saying.
I'm not sure you are saying what you think you are saying.
If a DD can't reach the DPS needed to fulfill their role in the dungeon, AKA can't or won't do their job, sure, kick them.
If a tank won't taunt or otherwise hold aggro on the boss, AKA can't or won't do their job...
A. In a normal dungeon, I just passive agressively say "Tank, would you like to slot a taunt?" as I deal with boss aggro while keeping the group healed.
B. In a vet dungeon, that fake tank had better have amazing DPS and the dungeon not need an actual tank, or I'll agree to a votekick in an instant.
Personally, I'm sure that fake tanks who refuse to slot a taunt or hold boss aggro have plenty of reasons for why they should roll into a dungeon and expect the healer or DDs to deal with boss aggro and do the tank's job for them. As that healer who often winds up with the boss aggro and thus has to tank as well as heal, I'm having a hard time seeing that as anything other than selfish.heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
DKs can pull multiple enemies. Its their Battle Standard ultimate synergy.
Simply put, ESO isn't designed for your vision of tanking. ESO is designed for the tank to be able to control and taunt only so much of the battelfield so that the DDs and the healers have to pay attention, not for complete control.
If you don't like spamming single target attacks on mobs, I suggest you stop trying to taunt everything. Taunt only the priority targets, and Crowd Control and AOE damage the rest. Your goal isn't to control everything. Its to bunch up the adds so your DDs can burn them down quickly.
I will absolutely take an actual tank who holds boss aggro over a fake tank who doesn't but has great DPS in any instance. Why? Because I can handle a slower dungeon. I find it extremely annoying to have to tank boss aggro when I'm on my healer, essentially forced to do the tank's job as well as my own because my fake tank doesn't care.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
Tanking does not suck in this game.
If I understand you correction about the taunt, it takes skill to pulls groups of mobs together in ESO. It is not a one button, grab everything, laziness as found in many other games. It is also not intended that that tanks grab everything in this game, but choose the priority targets.
Heck, with decent dps the tank does not even have time to taunt everything, but to get the melee over to the range effectively.
I can only see someone saying tanking sucks if they have yet to grasp how best to approach it in ESO>1 -
Cr4p0w3✭✭craftycarper73 wrote: »whats worse is the tank who doesnt keep still, now keep in mind im not talking about the top tier tanks who know there roll really really well and perform it top notch, im on about the tank who when you drop a destro ulti, liquid lightening, blockade and Ilambris procs and the tank moves the target out of the damage, i just leave the group at that point, whats the point in me putting out a load of damage if the tank cant hold the target.
And these are "proper" tanks.
I queue as a tank in normal dungeons on sorc, slot pets that generally tank the boss for me, yes there are times that it wont work, but the boss is normally gone in normal dungeons before you get a chance to tank anyway.
I noticed this too, then I look up on forums and discovered that Zos "simplified" the animation and effects of other players skills in your screen making totaly visible only those skills that have sinergy. So in some cases the tank could not see you dropping Ulti.
When I tank I pay extra attention on destro Ulti because the only hint I have, when the skill is not called out on group chat, is a brief sound and a pillar of fire/lightning that disapears in 1 second.
I wish that this option for simplified effects was a toggle!0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭heartburnkid wrote: »heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
If you don't enjoy tanking on this game then simply don't play as a tank. Problem solved. That's not a reason for someone to lie about their role and steal that spot from an actual tank. This isn't to mention they are cutting in line in front of other honest DPS characters - which isn't fair either.
I never have an issue getting into a dungeon as a tank though, it insta-pops. No ‘spot taking’ issues here.....
I haven't either. But that's beside the point as you are still taking a spot that should have gone to an actual tank.
And that was just part of my comment.
I also brought up the fact they are cutting in line of other damage dealers who aren't lying about their role - which isn't fair either.Edited by Jeremy on August 22, 2018 12:24PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
Tanking does not suck in this game.
I agree with you here.
Tanking is actually pretty fun on this game. At least in my opinion.0 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Tanking is about responsibility.
Considering most people playing the game are either under age kids or thirty-to-fourty years old men heavily on weed (check character/account names)... well, what do you expect?"Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »Tanking is about responsibility.
Considering most people playing the game are either under age kids or thirty-to-fourty years old men heavily on weed (check character/account names)... well, what do you expect?
lol
Maybe.
Tanks are generally under-played on every MMO I've ever participated in. I'm sure the added responsibility is probably part of it. But it's probably their lack of damage that is mostly to blame. For some reason: this newer generation of gamers is obsessed with killing fast and doing massive damage. It's one of the reasons the support class was dropped from the genre - which has really hurt the strategy elements of MMO combat as a whole. It's also why "dps race" mechanics are so heavily relied on now.Edited by Jeremy on August 22, 2018 12:46PM0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭oli.j.reillyb16_ESO wrote: »Want a real tank? Don’t use the finder - it’s really that simple.
Most real tanks won’t dare to PUG because you are completely at the mercy of whoever you end up with. Whether that’s 5k group DPS or some CP-cap joker who thinks he’s hot stuff and makes a mess of every pull before predictably dying to the mess he’s made.
Either end of the extreme - it’s not fun - and it’s not worth my time. Besides - why should I PuG - I know my worth as a tank main and all I ever hear from you finder users is how tanks are unnecessary.
Newsflash - 3 dps + 1 tank goes way faster and smoother than 3dps + 1 healer ever does - in my experience. All I ever see in the latter is an overworked healer and even longer boss fights than the standard role setup - since you’re all taking turns to kite the boss instead of just killing it.
I don't now how many real tanks there are because I always tank. But the problem is more likely that there are just less tanks, not that tanks PUG at a lower rate than other roles. Think about it. You are saying that pugging isn't worth it for you as a tank--isn't that even moreso the case for DPS since they have to wait longer and have the risk of ending up with a fake tank?0 -
Salvas_Aren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
If you don't enjoy tanking on this game then simply don't play as a tank. Problem solved. That's not a reason for someone to lie about their role and steal that spot from an actual tank. This isn't to mention they are cutting in line in front of other honest DPS characters - which isn't fair either.
How would one steal a real tanks role when the lack of tanks is one core of the problem?
0 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Salvas_Aren wrote: »heartburnkid wrote: »Tanking sucks in this game. I have one, specced right and with the right powers, but it SUCKS.
DC universe, a trash game does tanking right. Group pulls and the like make it superior than this single taunt garbage. That, and there are so many adds that you are just spamming single target attacks make it just bland and crappy.
I’ll take a fake tank than can melt everything over a real tank doing not much of anything in any instance. Why can’t a dks chain pull like 5 adds at a time instead of one?
If you don't enjoy tanking on this game then simply don't play as a tank. Problem solved. That's not a reason for someone to lie about their role and steal that spot from an actual tank. This isn't to mention they are cutting in line in front of other honest DPS characters - which isn't fair either.
How would one steal a real tanks role when the lack of tanks is one core of the problem?
I think he worded that badly. Your not denying a tank the spot. Your denying your group the chance for a real tank. You know what he meant though.1 -
Stupid question, but......
What about a Role Skill Line? The skill line selected locks the character's role.0 -
Jinchuu✭✭✭✭Tnks and healers are in low supply because most people are selfish and stupid. They think they can be the "hero" by playing dps even though they lack the skill (and let's be honest it doesn't take much) to manage to fulfill that role properly. This is evident in any style of game with supportive classes, they are always in low supply while everyone and their mama flocks to play the damage dealers and tend to fail miserably on those whichmakes those of us who do play supportive classes wish they would just uninstall.Unless you are willing to be a mindless sycophant and/or coddle others due to their insecurities prepare to be harrased by the Orwellian enforcers on these forums. You should also try to refrain from using any words more complex than those used by a small child due to the fact that said enforcers have made it clear that their vocabulary pool is aenemic.2
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Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »Stupid question, but......
What about a Role Skill Line? The skill line selected locks the character's role.
Can you elaborate?
0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »Stupid question, but......
What about a Role Skill Line? The skill line selected locks the character's role.
My main character is a tank in PVE and a healer in PVP. I just swap gear and if needed, CP.
There are legitimate ways to fill more than one role. For a normal dungeon, the only change I make to my DDs when I tank is that I equip a taunt, sword and board, and a crowd control skill.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tnks and healers are in low supply because most people are selfish and stupid. They think they can be the "hero" by playing dps even though they lack the skill (and let's be honest it doesn't take much) to manage to fulfill that role properly. This is evident in any style of game with supportive classes, they are always in low supply while everyone and their mama flocks to play the damage dealers and tend to fail miserably on those whichmakes those of us who do play supportive classes wish they would just uninstall.
So people are selfish and stupid because they play the role they prefer or find most enjoyable? Got you...0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tnks and healers are in low supply because most people are selfish and stupid. They think they can be the "hero" by playing dps even though they lack the skill (and let's be honest it doesn't take much) to manage to fulfill that role properly. This is evident in any style of game with supportive classes, they are always in low supply while everyone and their mama flocks to play the damage dealers and tend to fail miserably on those whichmakes those of us who do play supportive classes wish they would just uninstall.
Personally I find "fake" tanks to be a bigger turn off than low DPS when I'm healing. It's pretty rare that I PUG as a healer anymore. I'd rather just wait the extra time and go as DD.
Edited by Agenericname on August 22, 2018 1:51PM1 -
Jinchuu✭✭✭✭
So people are selfish and stupid because they play the role they prefer or find most enjoyable? Got you...
Reading comprehension is dead I guess. If you enjoy being an anchor to anyone unfornate enough to get put on a team with you then yes you are selfish and stupid.
Unless you are willing to be a mindless sycophant and/or coddle others due to their insecurities prepare to be harrased by the Orwellian enforcers on these forums. You should also try to refrain from using any words more complex than those used by a small child due to the fact that said enforcers have made it clear that their vocabulary pool is aenemic.1 -
aeowulf✭✭✭✭✭RodneyRegis wrote: »I hate fake tanks as much as the next player (especially those who won't stand still!) Bit surely the point is that without them the queue for DD would be interminably longer? The cause needs fixing, not the symptom. Either the system needs an overhaul, or there needs to be a much greater incentive for people to level and play proper tanks.
So this. The cause needs fixing.
To get short queue times you need 25% tanks, 25% healers and 50% dps queuing. The queues are slow because there is a greater than 50% of players selecting the DPS role.
Why? I can see two main problems. 3/5 of classes are not desired/viable/whatever in the tank role in end game. This scales down to people assuming their 'not a DK/warden' tank is not viable/good in PUGS or they feel they may want to end game one day, so don't play tank anymore. They change role to one their class is good with as no one really wants to relearn all their motifs/recipes etc. This then compounds the problem by overloading the DPS queue, (and healer but to a lesser degree.) Impact of this could be minimised if motifs/recipes/lorebooks were account wide, but it should be fixed properly by making all roles equally viable/desired in end game.
Issue 2, fun. The standard perma-block thing is boring as... Some classes can do it, some can't. There is a huge difference here because it can be looked at as training wheels. Also being told what to wear is not fun, nor is having to try and see when you need to block among a huge amount of explosions on screen. Being able to turn off spell effects would go a long way here, and to improve performance. An ESO 'stutter' from your computer can cause death, easily. It's the only game like it i've played for a long time
And in part, you just don't know when ZoS are going to turn round and literally strip your class from a role. Morrowind removed NB/Templar tanks from ESO. NB tank was the most fun this game has seen, I feel sorry for anyone who never had the chance to play one. My only niggle with this, is PTS warned this would happen, and was ignored. A year later and you still don't see non-DK/Warden tanks in finder. Vet finder is a really good way to see what class/role combos are viable/good/fun and what isn't. I don't know why ZoS don't use completion stats of vet DLC to see what classes are lacking in what roles.
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barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »Queing roles is a pain in many MMOs. There unfortunately will always be those players who que as tank or healer even though they are truly just a dps toon as a way to bypass long que times. It gets worse of course because so many players will come to the forums and claim that they run everything with just dps toons (there is a big difference between well geared experienced groups who can go all dps and puggers who are undergeared, low CP and un-experienced)
It would be nice if the new level advisor tool could somehow be used to determine if a player is geared/set up for a tank/healer role (of course this would cause its own forum mass protest topic)
under geared, inexperienced... sounds like there should be a progression of dungeons/trials etc.
Complete 10 first tier to be able to get into tier 2. Complete 10 tier 2 to get into the top dungeons/trials whatever.
That way they learn and get themselves groomed to be able to be productive at the highest level.0