Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap

barney2525

Jeremy wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you don't want to group with absolute tools that don't perform their roles properly or even at all, why are you pugging? Find a few guilds. Get social and find some friends that play at similar times and run it with people you know. Don't expect the group finder to work magic. Look at the pool of players it has to work with.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people who queue as tanks to actually be tanks.

Inexperienced or even bad players I don't mind dealing with. I expect that when I pug and that's fine. But having to deal with players who purposely lie about their role for quicker queue times is a different matter.

At the very least, the system could deny queing as a tank if you have less than 30k HP. (or some other reasonable number)

Sange13

Best cure for fake tanks is to be a real tank yourself.

"You can't change others, but you can change yourself."

Vaelen

Here is a real possible solution to fake tanks, fake dps, and fake healers:


Rift has just a system in place that does not allow a player to queue up if they do not have the recommended tanking stats, dps stats, or healer stats in order to perform each role. They have different tiers of dungeons that require different tiers of stats to perform each role.

Etienne_et_Isabeau

Agenericname wrote: »

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

Stupid question, but......

What about a Role Skill Line? The skill line selected locks the character's role.

Can you elaborate?

It would be nearly impossible to verify if someone is actually a tank. However, if the game had skill lines specific to roles, then players with low skills in these lines could be restricted from entering certain dungeons in their prescribed role.

You must have n points in Tank skill line to enter Dungeon [blank] as a tank......

Something along those lines. If someone wanted to DPS, but selected the tank skill line to enter dungeons, that character would be severely handicapped in terms of DPS, because most of the benefits to DPS would be in the DPS skill line.

Vaelen

Also the support role in Rift is unique, kind of like the support roles in GW2 as there aren't really any minimum required stats, just requires a certain support build.

Vaelen

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

Stupid question, but......

What about a Role Skill Line? The skill line selected locks the character's role.

Can you elaborate?

It would be nearly impossible to verify if someone is actually a tank. However, if the game had skill lines specific to roles, then players with low skills in these lines could be restricted from entering certain dungeons in their prescribed role.

You must have n points in Tank skill line to enter Dungeon [blank] as a tank......

Something along those lines. If someone wanted to DPS, but selected the tank skill line to enter dungeons, that character would be severely handicapped in terms of DPS, because most of the benefits to DPS would be in the DPS skill line.

Rift has that type of LFG system in place. How can the devs in Rift figure out how to require each tank to slot a taunt and have a minimum amount of health pool and defense stats, but ZOS can't figure out how to implement the same type of system in LFG?

Etienne_et_Isabeau

VaranisArano wrote: »

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

Stupid question, but......

What about a Role Skill Line? The skill line selected locks the character's role.

My main character is a tank in PVE and a healer in PVP. I just swap gear and if needed, CP.

There are legitimate ways to fill more than one role. For a normal dungeon, the only change I make to my DDs when I tank is that I equip a taunt, sword and board, and a crowd control skill.

The question is how to weed out the fake tanks. Yes, some people can fill more than one role. But others can't. And if people join a group as a tank, but can't fill that role, it can negatively affect the group.

How do we weed out the fake tanks? Or fake healers? If skill lines specific to roles were introduced, access to dungeons could be restricted based on ranks in this skill line. This wouldn't prohibit players from playing other roles in PvP and PvE, just limit players from queuing for certain dungeons/trials.

Vaelen

Tank role: should require minimum amount of resistance, health, and a taunt slotted on a bar.

DPS role: Should require minimum amount of stamina + physical damage + physical pen or magicka + spell damage + spell pen and/or crit chance % + crit damage % and damage skills slotted on a bar.

Healer role: should require minimum amount of magicka or stamina ( I guess you could technically heal with vigor in small groups), magicka or stamina recovery, and healing skills slotted on a bar.

testd4n1

Vaelen wrote: »

Tank role: should require minimum amount of resistance, health, and a taunt slotted on a bar.

DPS role: Should require minimum amount of stamina + physical damage + physical pen or magicka + spell damage + spell pen and/or crit chance % + crit damage % and damage skills slotted on a bar.

Healer role: should require minimum amount of magicka or stamina ( I guess you could technically heal with vigor in small groups), magicka or stamina recovery, and healing skills slotted on a bar.

Won't work in a 'play as you want' game like ESO.

Vaelen

testd4n1 wrote: »

Vaelen wrote: »

Tank role: should require minimum amount of resistance, health, and a taunt slotted on a bar.

DPS role: Should require minimum amount of stamina + physical damage + physical pen or magicka + spell damage + spell pen and/or crit chance % + crit damage % and damage skills slotted on a bar.

Healer role: should require minimum amount of magicka or stamina ( I guess you could technically heal with vigor in small groups), magicka or stamina recovery, and healing skills slotted on a bar.

Won't work in a 'play as you want' game like ESO.

ESO is not 'play as you want' anymore, that was taken away by Wrobel since Morrowind was launched. Where have you been?

testd4n1

Vaelen wrote: »

testd4n1 wrote: »

Vaelen wrote: »

Tank role: should require minimum amount of resistance, health, and a taunt slotted on a bar.

DPS role: Should require minimum amount of stamina + physical damage + physical pen or magicka + spell damage + spell pen and/or crit chance % + crit damage % and damage skills slotted on a bar.

Healer role: should require minimum amount of magicka or stamina ( I guess you could technically heal with vigor in small groups), magicka or stamina recovery, and healing skills slotted on a bar.

Won't work in a 'play as you want' game like ESO.

ESO is not 'play as you want' anymore, that was taken away by Wrobel since Morrowind was launched. Where have you been?

Playing ESO. Tanking non-DLC vet hard mode 4 mans on my dps sorc with a taunt slotted.

Agenericname

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

Stupid question, but......

What about a Role Skill Line? The skill line selected locks the character's role.

Can you elaborate?

It would be nearly impossible to verify if someone is actually a tank. However, if the game had skill lines specific to roles, then players with low skills in these lines could be restricted from entering certain dungeons in their prescribed role.

You must have n points in Tank skill line to enter Dungeon [blank] as a tank......

Something along those lines. If someone wanted to DPS, but selected the tank skill line to enter dungeons, that character would be severely handicapped in terms of DPS, because most of the benefits to DPS would be in the DPS skill line.

Okay, I think I'm tracking now.

You could probably make some sort of system that filtered the roles that you queued for. How successful it may or may not be could be debated, but it wouldn't address the underlying issue. There aren't enough tanks.

Any system like this would initially create longer queue times. It happened with the patch that eliminated queuing into multiple roles. Restricting them even further would increase that time again. It seems logical that the increase in demand and queue times would provide the incentive for the problem to correct itself, but I have some doubts about that.

I'm not particularly fond of "fake" roles, but ultimately I feel like if ZOS were going to provide any type of real solution to this that they would need to address the root cause first. Perhaps provide incentive to tanking. If we had that, then weeding out "fake" roles could be useful.

FakeFox

Vaelen wrote: »

Here is a real possible solution to fake tanks, fake dps, and fake healers:


Rift has just a system in place that does not allow a player to queue up if they do not have the recommended tanking stats, dps stats, or healer stats in order to perform each role. They have different tiers of dungeons that require different tiers of stats to perform each role.

As ZOS seems to have no clue of their own meta this could only go wrong. Wearing Alkosh? That's a DD Set, can't tank! Infal on a healer, are you insane? Queue as DPS!
And in ESO "Support" would be the euphemism for "too bad to queue for a actual role."
Apart from that what stops me from queuing in some random tank gear and switching ones in a dungeon?

Jhalin

Unless you’re in a vet dungeon, there’s no point to having a full tank since they just slows down the run

Slot a taunt and just hold still, and now you’re all the tank a normal dungeon needs. “Fake tank” no longer an issue

Azuramoonstar

swayx wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

there never is enough insensitive,

I main tank, and have mained it since ff14

ff14 has the same issue with lack of tanks, and "fake" tanks. That game has clear cut jobs with clear cut roles. It has a 3 different types of tanks and healers. they added SO MUCH stuff to get people tom play tank, such as roulette with "in need" bonuses which rewards keep growing. Making the classes easier to play.

People don't play tank because of the responsibility, and people are quick the blame the tank for a run going south.
People don't want to he responsible of holding aggro.threat, enmity on mobs on top of needing to output high dps.

the only way for ppl to play tank, is remove the responsibility. just to put this more into perspective, ff14 has a high dps tank that is fun to play they made it super easy for this job ti pump out high numbers, and made it easy to hold enemies attention. yet only 10% of the community world wide only play tank.

SE tried making a much requested job into a tank, and this didn't increase the tank numbers.

I guess you have a point. Responsibility sure is a fact why people dont play as a tank. They simply dont have enough confidence. But that works for like every MMO.

I guess, especially in ESO, its more about the use of tanks in everything else but raids/ dungeons. I mean ESO has so much solo content and its very comfortable to play with everything else but guess what: tanks. So for what kind of reason you should start play a tank? Except you are in a good guild and you want to play endgame content or realize somewhen that you dont need full tank specc to fullfill nearly everything beside raids. I mean its kinda boring and tiring to play solo content with a tank. In my opinion thats the reason in this dps and solo content focused game.

If you could just switch without much effort, there would be more "real" tanks i guess. Rift for example had this very great idea to have up to 5 Builds with one character. You could change ure role by one click, so nearly everyone was able to heal/ dps/ tank or support. And the game introduced this system very well so everybody knew about that possibility. I mean ofcourse, by getting every skyshard i can play a magplar as tank, heal and dps. But thats quite awkward and wont work for everything.

Its about the gameplay and the gameplay wont change so the problem cant be solved Just make a tank yourself if u want to play pledges with a random group. I mean even as dps you only need some gear and skills for it to work.

ff14 let you play every job on 1 character. still didn't help the tank situation. I've been saying and will always say. This isn't a game issue, it is a community issue. Not everyone wants to play a tank, it has been like this for decades. If a player is not playing there role kick them. That is all you can do. No game has made people play tank, people who want to tank will tank.

Azuramoonstar

aeowulf wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I hate fake tanks as much as the next player (especially those who won't stand still!) Bit surely the point is that without them the queue for DD would be interminably longer? The cause needs fixing, not the symptom. Either the system needs an overhaul, or there needs to be a much greater incentive for people to level and play proper tanks.

So this. The cause needs fixing.

To get short queue times you need 25% tanks, 25% healers and 50% dps queuing. The queues are slow because there is a greater than 50% of players selecting the DPS role.

Why? I can see two main problems. 3/5 of classes are not desired/viable/whatever in the tank role in end game. This scales down to people assuming their 'not a DK/warden' tank is not viable/good in PUGS or they feel they may want to end game one day, so don't play tank anymore. They change role to one their class is good with as no one really wants to relearn all their motifs/recipes etc. This then compounds the problem by overloading the DPS queue, (and healer but to a lesser degree.) Impact of this could be minimised if motifs/recipes/lorebooks were account wide, but it should be fixed properly by making all roles equally viable/desired in end game.

Issue 2, fun. The standard perma-block thing is boring as... Some classes can do it, some can't. There is a huge difference here because it can be looked at as training wheels. Also being told what to wear is not fun, nor is having to try and see when you need to block among a huge amount of explosions on screen. Being able to turn off spell effects would go a long way here, and to improve performance. An ESO 'stutter' from your computer can cause death, easily. It's the only game like it i've played for a long time

And in part, you just don't know when ZoS are going to turn round and literally strip your class from a role. Morrowind removed NB/Templar tanks from ESO. NB tank was the most fun this game has seen, I feel sorry for anyone who never had the chance to play one. My only niggle with this, is PTS warned this would happen, and was ignored. A year later and you still don't see non-DK/Warden tanks in finder. Vet finder is a really good way to see what class/role combos are viable/good/fun and what isn't. I don't know why ZoS don't use completion stats of vet DLC to see what classes are lacking in what roles.

ff14 has dedicated tanks.. still most people play dps. there is nothing a dev can do to fix a player problem.

Jhalin

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I hate fake tanks as much as the next player (especially those who won't stand still!) Bit surely the point is that without them the queue for DD would be interminably longer? The cause needs fixing, not the symptom. Either the system needs an overhaul, or there needs to be a much greater incentive for people to level and play proper tanks.

So this. The cause needs fixing.

To get short queue times you need 25% tanks, 25% healers and 50% dps queuing. The queues are slow because there is a greater than 50% of players selecting the DPS role.

Why? I can see two main problems. 3/5 of classes are not desired/viable/whatever in the tank role in end game. This scales down to people assuming their 'not a DK/warden' tank is not viable/good in PUGS or they feel they may want to end game one day, so don't play tank anymore. They change role to one their class is good with as no one really wants to relearn all their motifs/recipes etc. This then compounds the problem by overloading the DPS queue, (and healer but to a lesser degree.) Impact of this could be minimised if motifs/recipes/lorebooks were account wide, but it should be fixed properly by making all roles equally viable/desired in end game.

Issue 2, fun. The standard perma-block thing is boring as... Some classes can do it, some can't. There is a huge difference here because it can be looked at as training wheels. Also being told what to wear is not fun, nor is having to try and see when you need to block among a huge amount of explosions on screen. Being able to turn off spell effects would go a long way here, and to improve performance. An ESO 'stutter' from your computer can cause death, easily. It's the only game like it i've played for a long time

And in part, you just don't know when ZoS are going to turn round and literally strip your class from a role. Morrowind removed NB/Templar tanks from ESO. NB tank was the most fun this game has seen, I feel sorry for anyone who never had the chance to play one. My only niggle with this, is PTS warned this would happen, and was ignored. A year later and you still don't see non-DK/Warden tanks in finder. Vet finder is a really good way to see what class/role combos are viable/good/fun and what isn't. I don't know why ZoS don't use completion stats of vet DLC to see what classes are lacking in what roles.

ff14 has dedicated tanks.. still most people play dps. there is nothing a dev can do to fix a player problem.

Cool then it’s literary a completely unsolvable problem in your opinion. You aren’t going to change the entire online gamer population. If there was actually any incentive to tank, instead of active disincentives via absolute crap solo play, then there would be more players. Right now it’s not fun, it’s highly limited since Morrowind game gutting (DK/Warden or get out), and they’re not needed for anything but trials and vet content, and even then not all vet content needs them.

“Fake tanks” aka dps with a taunt being effective in lots of content in ESO actually makes it more fun to play in the role. Good players don’t need to sacrifice all their damage to do well controlling enemies

Eso101rus

Jhalin wrote: »

Unless you’re in a vet dungeon, there’s no point to having a full tank since they just slows down the run

Slot a taunt and just hold still, and now you’re all the tank a normal dungeon needs. “Fake tank” no longer an issue

Most people who have issues with fake tanks are not talking normal dungeons here, and your idea of what a tank does is really naive. A good tank will taunt main threats, it will stack adds making the dps more effective and allow the dungeon to go quicker, and it will Debuff the enemy to increase group dps. It will control the room and make the dungeon go much quicker. 1 good tank, 3 dps will do any dungeon much quicker than 4 dps chasing around kiting the boss thinking it’s a pvp training session.

Azuramoonstar

Jhalin wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I hate fake tanks as much as the next player (especially those who won't stand still!) Bit surely the point is that without them the queue for DD would be interminably longer? The cause needs fixing, not the symptom. Either the system needs an overhaul, or there needs to be a much greater incentive for people to level and play proper tanks.

So this. The cause needs fixing.

To get short queue times you need 25% tanks, 25% healers and 50% dps queuing. The queues are slow because there is a greater than 50% of players selecting the DPS role.

Why? I can see two main problems. 3/5 of classes are not desired/viable/whatever in the tank role in end game. This scales down to people assuming their 'not a DK/warden' tank is not viable/good in PUGS or they feel they may want to end game one day, so don't play tank anymore. They change role to one their class is good with as no one really wants to relearn all their motifs/recipes etc. This then compounds the problem by overloading the DPS queue, (and healer but to a lesser degree.) Impact of this could be minimised if motifs/recipes/lorebooks were account wide, but it should be fixed properly by making all roles equally viable/desired in end game.

Issue 2, fun. The standard perma-block thing is boring as... Some classes can do it, some can't. There is a huge difference here because it can be looked at as training wheels. Also being told what to wear is not fun, nor is having to try and see when you need to block among a huge amount of explosions on screen. Being able to turn off spell effects would go a long way here, and to improve performance. An ESO 'stutter' from your computer can cause death, easily. It's the only game like it i've played for a long time

And in part, you just don't know when ZoS are going to turn round and literally strip your class from a role. Morrowind removed NB/Templar tanks from ESO. NB tank was the most fun this game has seen, I feel sorry for anyone who never had the chance to play one. My only niggle with this, is PTS warned this would happen, and was ignored. A year later and you still don't see non-DK/Warden tanks in finder. Vet finder is a really good way to see what class/role combos are viable/good/fun and what isn't. I don't know why ZoS don't use completion stats of vet DLC to see what classes are lacking in what roles.

ff14 has dedicated tanks.. still most people play dps. there is nothing a dev can do to fix a player problem.

Cool then it’s literary a completely unsolvable problem in your opinion. You aren’t going to change the entire online gamer population. If there was actually any incentive to tank, instead of active disincentives via absolute crap solo play, then there would be more players. Right now it’s not fun, it’s highly limited since Morrowind game gutting (DK/Warden or get out), and they’re not needed for anything but trials and vet content, and even then not all vet content needs them.

“Fake tanks” aka dps with a taunt being effective in lots of content in ESO actually makes it more fun to play in the role. Good players don’t need to sacrifice all their damage to do well controlling enemies

ff14 tried to incentives people to play tank by adding the "in need" bonus which pays people with extra exp, money to tank. raising the enmity of skills making almost no need to taunt enemies, raising dps of tanks.

still didn't work on increasing players playing tank. we are talking about a role that only 10% of mmo players play since the dawn of MMO. No game has made people play tank.

ff14 has warrior a high dps tank, with lil need to use taunting to maintain aggro. still tanks are in low supply.

this is a player problem not a game problem. You can make the highest dps tank in any game, with super easy taunting and still no one will play it. It isn't about if a job can dps or not. It is about the responsibility and people blaming tanks for stuff going wrong.

I've played many mmo, dcuo, ff11 ff14 Aion terra to name a few and all have this problem. no fix each game has done, worked out.

even the director/producer of ff14 realized that no amount of intensives or adding jobs will get ppl to play tank.

Jhalin

Eso101rus wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Unless you’re in a vet dungeon, there’s no point to having a full tank since they just slows down the run

Slot a taunt and just hold still, and now you’re all the tank a normal dungeon needs. “Fake tank” no longer an issue

Most people who have issues with fake tanks are not talking normal dungeons here, and your idea of what a tank does is really naive. A good tank will taunt main threats, it will stack adds making the dps more effective and allow the dungeon to go quicker, and it will Debuff the enemy to increase group dps. It will control the room and make the dungeon go much quicker. 1 good tank, 3 dps will do any dungeon much quicker than 4 dps chasing around kiting the boss thinking it’s a pvp training session.

It sure would be helpful to specify vHM then. But still, since there is no AoE taunt, as long as they’ve got Major Fracture/Breech and Silver Leash, that’s a tank, plain and simple. Positioning is easy, blocking at the right time is easy, dropping AoEs for soft taunts is easy.

If you have a nooblet that would be crap at any role, then kick them and take over the tank role yourself. Stop complaining about the lack of tanks when most toons can do it just by changing two abilities on their bar. There’s no reason to role tanks in this game because they do nothing outside vHM/DLC dungeons and endgame raiding. The entire rest of the game may as well not exist for tank toons

swirve

Fake tanks be posting, look at fake DDs, Healers...etc... anything to deflect from them.

VaranisArano

Jhalin wrote: »

Unless you’re in a vet dungeon, there’s no point to having a full tank since they just slows down the run

Slot a taunt and just hold still, and now you’re all the tank a normal dungeon needs. “Fake tank” no longer an issue

If a fake tank in a normal dungeon would take your advice, slot a taunt and hold still, I'd be happy.

They don't. That's the problem. The boss runs all over and my healer winds up getting the job of dealing with boss aggro, holding still, AND healing.

Salvas_Aren

swirve wrote: »

Fake tanks be posting, look at fake DDs, Healers...etc... anything to deflect from them.

I never fakepug as tank. I fakepug as healer. I let other players faketank for me.

Thrain

swirve wrote: »

Fake tanks be posting, look at fake DDs, Healers...etc... anything to deflect from them.

Many ppl here already said that they join as fake tank for normal dungeons.

Thx Sherlock its very kind of you that you pointed out what they are doing after they confessed that they are doing it

When this thread got 16 pages you should repeat it again so nobody will miss it

Salvas_Aren

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Unless you’re in a vet dungeon, there’s no point to having a full tank since they just slows down the run

Slot a taunt and just hold still, and now you’re all the tank a normal dungeon needs. “Fake tank” no longer an issue

If a fake tank in a normal dungeon would take your advice, slot a taunt and hold still, I'd be happy.

They don't. That's the problem. The boss runs all over and my healer winds up getting the job of dealing with boss aggro, holding still, AND healing.

They do it for a reason:

Etienne_et_Isabeau

Agenericname wrote: »

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

Stupid question, but......

What about a Role Skill Line? The skill line selected locks the character's role.

Can you elaborate?

It would be nearly impossible to verify if someone is actually a tank. However, if the game had skill lines specific to roles, then players with low skills in these lines could be restricted from entering certain dungeons in their prescribed role.

You must have n points in Tank skill line to enter Dungeon [blank] as a tank......

Something along those lines. If someone wanted to DPS, but selected the tank skill line to enter dungeons, that character would be severely handicapped in terms of DPS, because most of the benefits to DPS would be in the DPS skill line.

Okay, I think I'm tracking now.

You could probably make some sort of system that filtered the roles that you queued for. How successful it may or may not be could be debated, but it wouldn't address the underlying issue. There aren't enough tanks.

Any system like this would initially create longer queue times. It happened with the patch that eliminated queuing into multiple roles. Restricting them even further would increase that time again. It seems logical that the increase in demand and queue times would provide the incentive for the problem to correct itself, but I have some doubts about that.

I'm not particularly fond of "fake" roles, but ultimately I feel like if ZOS were going to provide any type of real solution to this that they would need to address the root cause first. Perhaps provide incentive to tanking. If we had that, then weeding out "fake" roles could be useful.

I don't really see this as a problem for ZOS. It isn't something that needs to be "fixed." The biggest problem with changing things is really breaking something that wasn't broken before. We've seen this with patches.

I guess players would have to decide between longer queues or risk dealing with fake tanks.

Ender1310

Think of it as a good thing. There is a learning curve. Played with a healer and I use the term loosely who was sending a faint tickle to the back of my toons neck as healing. So hard. It's actually easier to solo cause you know your not getting g healed.

Ender1310

I qued as a tank by mistake I forgot to switch roles. I didn't try to fake it I humbly asked for forgiveness and bowed out.

Jinchuu

VaranisArano wrote: »

If a fake tank in a normal dungeon would take your advice, slot a taunt and hold still, I'd be happy.

They don't. That's the problem. The boss runs all over and my healer winds up getting the job of dealing with boss aggro, holding still, AND healing.

QFT. I don't enjoy having to fulfill two roles because XxXLeetDPSpwnzorzXxX decided to queue as a role they have no intention of filling.

peacenote

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I hate fake tanks as much as the next player (especially those who won't stand still!) Bit surely the point is that without them the queue for DD would be interminably longer? The cause needs fixing, not the symptom. Either the system needs an overhaul, or there needs to be a much greater incentive for people to level and play proper tanks.

So this. The cause needs fixing.

To get short queue times you need 25% tanks, 25% healers and 50% dps queuing. The queues are slow because there is a greater than 50% of players selecting the DPS role.

Why? I can see two main problems. 3/5 of classes are not desired/viable/whatever in the tank role in end game. This scales down to people assuming their 'not a DK/warden' tank is not viable/good in PUGS or they feel they may want to end game one day, so don't play tank anymore. They change role to one their class is good with as no one really wants to relearn all their motifs/recipes etc. This then compounds the problem by overloading the DPS queue, (and healer but to a lesser degree.) Impact of this could be minimised if motifs/recipes/lorebooks were account wide, but it should be fixed properly by making all roles equally viable/desired in end game.

Issue 2, fun. The standard perma-block thing is boring as... Some classes can do it, some can't. There is a huge difference here because it can be looked at as training wheels. Also being told what to wear is not fun, nor is having to try and see when you need to block among a huge amount of explosions on screen. Being able to turn off spell effects would go a long way here, and to improve performance. An ESO 'stutter' from your computer can cause death, easily. It's the only game like it i've played for a long time

And in part, you just don't know when ZoS are going to turn round and literally strip your class from a role. Morrowind removed NB/Templar tanks from ESO. NB tank was the most fun this game has seen, I feel sorry for anyone who never had the chance to play one. My only niggle with this, is PTS warned this would happen, and was ignored. A year later and you still don't see non-DK/Warden tanks in finder. Vet finder is a really good way to see what class/role combos are viable/good/fun and what isn't. I don't know why ZoS don't use completion stats of vet DLC to see what classes are lacking in what roles.

ff14 has dedicated tanks.. still most people play dps. there is nothing a dev can do to fix a player problem.

Cool then it’s literary a completely unsolvable problem in your opinion. You aren’t going to change the entire online gamer population. If there was actually any incentive to tank, instead of active disincentives via absolute crap solo play, then there would be more players. Right now it’s not fun, it’s highly limited since Morrowind game gutting (DK/Warden or get out), and they’re not needed for anything but trials and vet content, and even then not all vet content needs them.

“Fake tanks” aka dps with a taunt being effective in lots of content in ESO actually makes it more fun to play in the role. Good players don’t need to sacrifice all their damage to do well controlling enemies

ff14 tried to incentives people to play tank by adding the "in need" bonus which pays people with extra exp, money to tank. raising the enmity of skills making almost no need to taunt enemies, raising dps of tanks.

still didn't work on increasing players playing tank. we are talking about a role that only 10% of mmo players play since the dawn of MMO. No game has made people play tank.

ff14 has warrior a high dps tank, with lil need to use taunting to maintain aggro. still tanks are in low supply.

this is a player problem not a game problem. You can make the highest dps tank in any game, with super easy taunting and still no one will play it. It isn't about if a job can dps or not. It is about the responsibility and people blaming tanks for stuff going wrong.

I've played many mmo, dcuo, ff11 ff14 Aion terra to name a few and all have this problem. no fix each game has done, worked out.

even the director/producer of ff14 realized that no amount of intensives or adding jobs will get ppl to play tank.

Good discussion. Quotes in spoiler.

1) There is a portion of players who will not play tanks (or healers) because they don't want the expectation of leading/being blamed. I avoiding tanking for a long time because I have a bad sense of direction and don't want to deal with people following me off a cliff.

For those of you in that boat, I encourage you to try. Playing different roles is fun. The ESO community seems better than most at listening to an experienced DPS or understanding that a certain role isn't always "lead" in a dungeon.

2) The issue of "absolute crap solo play".... 1000% true. My tank, which I actually love playing when I TANK, sucks to go through stories, quests, getting skill points... everything. Dual specs would go a long way with this. If not in the #1 category (which I no longer am but was for a long time), the rest of us could tank a lot more if the toon could do more than one thing. I'd tank on my main and switch back to whatever when I felt like it. But I can't even really PRACTICE being a tank until I hit max level because I can't get through content by myself on my own if I take that route. My tank was leveled in Skyreach.

There are definitely scenarios where I'd tank if my "main" could do it. I don't want to tank on my alt if I am achievement hunting. But dual specs would fix that too.

3) Dealing with this by cracking down on who can queue for what, based on specs, won't work. The community is smarter than this, and the difference between normal and vet dungeons, the difference between new and old dungeons... it will ruin people's fun. I don't think it's the answer. I can solo or duo the basic vet dungeons and it would NOT be fun if I could no longer be let in or roles were strictly enforced.

4) Efforts by ZOS to ensure all roles can tank (preferably, in my personal opinion, with class-specific abilities and not generic ones) combined with #2 would get us close to the maximum amount of tanks in the community that are possible. We will never have as many tanks as we would DPS, but I think there are ways to get us as closer.