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Fake PUG Roles
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smacky✭✭✭ValueDrift wrote: »To be honest, if we require similar standards from DPS as from healers and tanks, then half the DPS I see in Normal dungeons are fake DPS, with their single target DPS being around 5K and AoE non-existent. But of course we know that no one would actually queue as fake DPS, since DPS has the longest queu times.
So these people who look like fake DPS aren't actually fake DPS, they simply aren't very good at the game. The same is then probably true of many fake healers and fake tanks. At least the fake tanks I see often have tank-levels of HP, so maybe they just don't know they are supposed to taunt the bosses.
And yes, I agree with what someone said above, fake tanks usually also have no DPS. Which also supports my agument that many of these people aren't intentionally queuing for the wrong role, they just can't play any role well.
What ZoS could do about this is add some kind of dungeon tutorial, that teaches the different roles, and requires passing a test for that role in order to queu for that role. Untill test is passed, random dungeon finder can't be used. Then every healer will know how to heal, every tank knows what a taunt is and every DPS can reach some reasonable minimum requirement of DPS.
I agree with your general point of view, hoewever we are encountering tanks who do not have a Taunt.
So while in principle on the DPS side you are spot on, if these people were using a taunt, I would accept that as tanking. Fake Tank = No Taunt.0 -
smacky✭✭✭The_Sadist wrote: »I honestly can't say I've ever seen a fake healer before, though as a Magicka Sorc I have shields and self heals for days so I could have overlooked them, but legitimate fake tanks are a serious annoyance. That being said I'm a hypocrite, as I often queue as a tank for dungeons I'm grinding in order to speed up runs. That being said, I slot a taunt, control the boss, mostly self sustain and I've never had a complaint before (or a wipe for that matter). If someone queues as a tank for a difficult dungeon and doesn't adjust their build accordingly I often see how we go with trash and the first boss before asking the player. I personally don't mind a competent fake tank who doesn't drag the boss around, a fake healer seems like you're just asking for trouble though.
Don;t sell yourself short. You are not a hypocrite if you have a taunt. That is the definition of tanking for the purpose of the game. If you use a taunt, and queue as a tank, I don;t have a problem running a dungeon with you.1 -
Salvas_Aren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So you would prefer a dungeon run in 30 mins with all roles present over a run in 15 mins with 3 DDs and no death?0 -
smacky✭✭✭No dungeon in this game needs a healer? Why this horse getting the beat down again.
Really? So you can do Vet Scalecaller, Vet WGT, Vet RoM without a healer, please post a link to a video of these, I would love to see your tactics.
This isn't beating a dead horse, it is a fact you need a healer for certain sdungeons.
Any Vet HM Dungeon needs a healer, even Crypt of Hearts or Banished Cells.0 -
smacky✭✭✭Salvas_Aren wrote: »So you would prefer a dungeon run in 30 mins with all roles present over a run in 15 mins with 3 DDs and no death?
If you actually read my original post, I referenced SCP as an example. A speed run on that in Vet is to do it in under 1.5 hours.
My point is, I would rather be able to DPS instead of the boss deciding I am the tank, because somebody intentionally queued incorrectly.
If you want to run a premade group (mentioned in my OP) then go for your life with 4 dps faking tank and heals if you like.
But go and get the new dungeons with a fake tank, sorry but you are not getting past some of those bosses.0 -
LordSarevok✭✭✭✭No dungeon in this game needs a healer? Why this horse getting the beat down again.
Really? So you can do Vet Scalecaller, Vet WGT, Vet RoM without a healer, please post a link to a video of these, I would love to see your tactics.
This isn't beating a dead horse, it is a fact you need a healer for certain sdungeons.
Any Vet HM Dungeon needs a healer, even Crypt of Hearts or Banished Cells.
LOL! My first no death on vWGT was 3 dps and my tank.... I run most of my vet dungeons with no healer. Now, some of the Vet DLC ones I can't run without a healer. It's called vigor, damage shields, potions, and battle roar.0 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
You should try something else. Fungal Grotto I can be boring after a while.Salvas_Aren wrote: »So you would prefer a dungeon run in 30 mins with all roles present over a run in 15 mins with 3 DDs and no death?"Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.0 -
Salvas_Aren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People should be smart enough to fakepug for dungeons that are doable so.
I would never fakepug for vets, even those which work fine that way. However, pugging for normals as 1+1+2 is a pain.
You mentioned a 2 level reporting system for fake roles. Would be interesting if they implemented it, can`t wait to see all these fake DDs getting banned.
Edited by Salvas_Aren on August 20, 2018 1:52PM0 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
I have been lectured several times for doing too much damage. Other ppl were complaining they can't do anything. In fact, when I level a new char and one guy like you wanna show off, I vote kick. And it usually passes. Not everyone wanna get carried.LordSarevok wrote: »In most, if not all cases I pull more dps than both other "dps" in the group and probably tank better than most. So you would vote to kick me?"Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The suggestion from OP is worse than the problem.
1. We have seen players abuse the system before. Back when the group leader could kick a player it often happens for absurd reasons. It still does considering a CP called player commenters here this weekend he was kicked from the start by CP300 group because he didn’t have a vMA bow.
2. Everyone has their own opinion of what a fake tank is and some are pretty extreme. It would be stupid to give players the power to ge a player banned or limit ther game play because of an oppinion.
Not to worry. Zos can see how bad this idea is. Yes. I queue up as a tank on my dps sometimes as a healer. I have mostly damage skills on my bar and tend to do most of the damage for the group.
Have a problem with GF the I really suggest forming your own group. It’s very easy.Edited by idk on August 20, 2018 1:56PM0 -
Salvas_Aren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »
You should try something else. Fungal Grotto I can be boring after a while.Salvas_Aren wrote: »So you would prefer a dungeon run in 30 mins with all roles present over a run in 15 mins with 3 DDs and no death?
Who cares what is boring? If I need gear, I run that stupid dungeon for it. For armour I run normal, for weapons vet.0 -
LordSarevok✭✭✭✭jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »
I have been lectured several times for doing too much damage. Other ppl were complaining they can't do anything. In fact, when I level a new char and one guy like you wanna show off, I vote kick. And it usually passes. Not everyone wanna get carried.LordSarevok wrote: »In most, if not all cases I pull more dps than both other "dps" in the group and probably tank better than most. So you would vote to kick me?
Lol... Want to know how many times I've been voted out? Not once. You are the extreme, and I mean EXTREME minority.0 -
Odovacar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What's even worst is when you and the group call them out on it and they get super defensive and try to find a way to convince everyone to feel that *it* doesn't matter, LOL. #SAYNOTOPUGSATALLCOSTEdited by Odovacar on August 20, 2018 2:49PM0 -
MJallday✭✭✭✭✭
✭So what ZOS have done (at least on the PTS) is tried to crack a nut with a slegehammer
The situation is fine for those who are "pure dps/healer/tank" - however it falls down in 3 places.
1) when you run multi roles
2) when you have a large skew of the population leaning towards one role rather than others (dps)
3) you pidgeon hole the roles into tank, healer, dps, dps
however for "vet content" - it does make sort of sence. because you do need to be "that little bit better"
in addition it certainly doenst work in trials to have "multi roles" but i would argue in normal dungeons you can pretty much perform any role at cp750. indeed you can solo/two person most of it - which makes this a pointless change which will only exacerbate the amount of kicking going on in "normal" and/or make low level DPS that queue "honestly" wait for hours for a slot.
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majulook✭✭✭✭✭
✭last week was in 2 pugs were the "healer" had no healing ability and no restro staff, all the healler said was dont die. I was playing my magden so I slotted my restro staff and as a off healer we got through.
Wish there was some sort of check to ensure players actually had the skills and abilities they claim in the group tool.Si vis pacem, para bellum2 -
MJallday✭✭✭✭✭
✭last week was in 2 pugs were the "healer" had no healing ability and no restro staff, all the healler said was dont die. I was playing my magden so I slotted my restro staff and as a off healer we got through.
Wish there was some sort of check to ensure players actually had the skills and abilities they claim in the group tool.
and this is where it falls down... how can you check that? its impossible.
for example as a magplar you could have 5 types of heal slotted on a bar - it doesnt mean youll use any of them, and you might stick to doing DPS
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karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Vet needs to be more strict. I know the tank/ 3 DPS is a thing, but its a thing for experienced players who already know the dungeon/class etc.
Normals? You don't need a tank or healer.0 -
FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How do you want to determine if someone is a "offender" or not. There are really no clearly set role requirements for tanks, healers and DDs. How do you want to define if someone is fulfilling the role "properly"?
To give a few examples:
1. A experienced DD queues as a tank and has a taunt on his bar or holds aggro without taunting but otherwise a full DPS build. Is this a reportable offence? Is he fulfilling the role worse then a new player playing standard tank build but letting taunt run out constantly and dying many times?
2. What does it take for me to be a healer, do I need to properly buff and wear support sets? Then 90% of actual healers are disqualified. However if that is not required why can't I go in with my magblade and offheal a bit with funnel? If someone dies how do you want to know it's the "fake healers" fault and that a proper healer would have saved the person?
3. But the most interesting part that never gets talked about is DD. How much DPS do you need to queue as a DD? If I am the second DD and 70% group DPS can I report you now and you get banned for not being good enough?
I think this should make very clear that such a system need clearly defined role requirement and setting those is firstly very difficult and secondly does not even solve the problem.Edited by FakeFox on August 20, 2018 3:30PMEU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)2 -
GiggleGoat✭✭✭✭Imo this issue will never stop being a problem while the dd queues are so long. That's the meat of the issue.
Something needs to be implemented like an "idgaf" queue that will only pull from the dd pool which can be used for farming or whatever.
Peeps have had awesome ideas in the past of readjusting dungeons and difficulties to allow 3dd 1heal 1tank and a bunch of other stuff that I can't remember
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Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭In a lot of vet 4 player dungeons with a high CP group, full blown tank builds play like luggage and true healers are just topping off what's already topped off. It's a perception shared across a wide spectrum of high CP players, both those who can successfully fill a role while DPSing and those who can't.
You can't ban people for poor performance while playing a game. Forcing players into one role isn't going to suddenly make people hold a shield or resto staff, it's still play-as-you-want.0 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is frustrating but only really have an issue when it is a fake tank.
To me as a real tank it's just fake dps that bothers me. If i get a group with one dps that can't pull 30k I just bow out, i have like 3 tanks so i can just queue up on another while waiting out the debuff on the 1st.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American1 -
Zypheran✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I never queue in a fake roll but.... I don't complain when others do because I usually queue for 20mins as a dd but it would probably be twice this if I had to wait for a real tank!! I'm happy to take the fake tank, of ANY level, just to get into the dungeon.All my housing builds are available on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf3oJ_cxuu01HmWZJZ6KK6g?view_as=subscriber
I am happy to share the EHT save files for most of my builds.1 -
LordSarevok✭✭✭✭How do you want to determine if someone is a "offender" or not. There are really no clearly set role requirements for tanks, healers and DDs. How do you want to define if someone is fulfilling the role "properly"?
To give a few examples:
1. A experienced DD queues as a tank and has a taunt on his bar or holds aggro without taunting but otherwise a full DPS build. Is this a reportable offence? Is he fulfilling the role worse then a new player playing standard tank build but letting taunt run out constantly and dying many times?
2. What does it take for me to be a healer, do I need to properly buff and wear support sets? Then 90% of actual healers are disqualified. However if that is not required why can't I go in with my magblade and offheal a bit with funnel? If someone dies how do you want to know it's the "fake healers" fault and that a proper healer would have saved the person?
3. But the most interesting part that never gets talked about is DD. How much DPS do you need to queue as a DD? If I am the second DD and 70% group DPS can I report you now and you get banned for not being good enough?
I think this should make very clear that such a system need clearly defined role requirement and setting those is firstly very difficult and secondly does not even solve the problem.
But... But... His feelings! Good post, very on point. And nothing makes me drop out of a dungeon group faster than watching the two "Dps" light attack a trash mob for about 3k dps.
I think the only real fix is a licensing system like Gran Turismo. Want to queue as a tank? Sure! Just complete this gauntlet, keep aggro, and stay alive! Bam! License B acquired! Want to get License A? Just complete this gauntlet, keep aggro, learn to bash interrupt, chain mobs into AoE's, keep debuffs up as much as possible, and keep group members alive!
Now this won't eradicate the problem, but when you see someone after the fact not doing their job at least decently (having the licensing), you can chalk it up to willful disregard and confidently vote to kick.Edited by LordSarevok on August 20, 2018 5:12PM3 -
Malacthulhu✭✭✭✭While I dislike people quing for fake roles in dungeons, I have low expectations when pugging. The funny part is that roles matter more with randos then with friends and guildies bc you get so use to playing together. The question usually comes up does anyone want to run a tank and do we need one, same thing with healers.Xbox One Na0 -
AH93✭✭✭Fully support OPs suggestion, I've little tolerance to all the fakers who can't perform their roles.
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Smitch_59✭✭✭✭✭This is just one more reason why single-player games are far superior to MMOs. Just sayin'.By Azura, by Azura, by Azura!0 -
smacky✭✭✭LordSarevok wrote: »No dungeon in this game needs a healer? Why this horse getting the beat down again.
Really? So you can do Vet Scalecaller, Vet WGT, Vet RoM without a healer, please post a link to a video of these, I would love to see your tactics.
This isn't beating a dead horse, it is a fact you need a healer for certain sdungeons.
Any Vet HM Dungeon needs a healer, even Crypt of Hearts or Banished Cells.
LOL! My first no death on vWGT was 3 dps and my tank.... I run most of my vet dungeons with no healer. Now, some of the Vet DLC ones I can't run without a healer. It's called vigor, damage shields, potions, and battle roar.
That;s great if you are a Stam character. I am a Mag Sorc...0 -
smacky✭✭✭My thoughts: no need to being angry about wrong role in normal dungeon (because all want to take a daily reward) if you have high level player. Start to worry in the veteran dungeons and never go to DLC dungeons with randoms. Even a "correct" roles don't know what they should to do.
You make one assumption which is incorrect, and that is that I am referring to Random Normal dungeons. That is not the case,
I choose to farm a number of dungeons because I need gear. Such as WGT for a Resto and Lightning SPC staff. This is just some of the dungeons I choose to farm.
Other dungeones for supporting healing sets, such as Scalecaller for Jorvulds.
I am sorry, but these cannot be done without a tank inb a reaosnable timeframe, or at all because you wipe at certain points.
As I have said many times in this thread, to be a Tank, you need to have a Taunt.
I have seen a MagSorc Tank Scalecaller with an Ice staff for aunt, and we managed it. Slowly and painfully, but I can tell you now, that without that taunt, I would waste all my magicka shielding and healing, and do not have the stamina to continually block.0
This discussion has been closed.