Fake PUG Roles

zaria

its a pain, faking work in normals at least for decent players, it does not work then the fake tank do tank damage while getting chased all over the room by boss, and yes it get more fun with fake healer and tank

On the other hand, did direfrost on my stamblade, checked the normal dungeons I did not have quest for
Smooth run.
That until I came to the last boss saw the health and how it increased then HM was activated.
it was veteran, manged to die once, mostly of shock I think, rest was smooth.
Forever since I did that dungeon, yes I should reacted that the bosses had to much health

mocap

i rarely see any fake tanks in dungeons and if i do, then mostly in normals, where you don't need it anyway (outside of DLC ofcuz).

All i want when i see fake tank is that group DPS must be 90-100k, not less.

starkerealm

ghwaite wrote: »

It is frustrating but only really have an issue when it is a fake tank.

Fake healers can be frustrating as well. If everything runs by the numbers, it's not a problem. But, most of the time, the whole team will suffer because of that.

starkerealm

KnightVI wrote: »

I get annoyed when I see someone queue as a fake healer or tank just to skip the queue times. Only one way to describe those kind of people. Selfish.

What annoys me more however, is people starting a vote kick before we've even started! Im CP 575 and I still occasionally get vote kicked as a DPS instantly on loading in. So then I have to wait for a 20minute timer to finish because apparently I abandoned the activity!!

As if that somehow means I must be bad at the game. I've seen many CP750 who were awful at the game, and I easily pull 30k+ DPS on a solo test dummy. Elitist pricks.

No, they're idiots who don't understand the game at all. They ground their CP in Skyreach on the idea that bigger numbers mean the game will be easier for them, without any comprehension of how the game actually functions.

Strider__Roshin

You think that's bad? It's rare that I don't get a fake DPS.

Malamar1229

This is really only an "issue" for vet DLC dungeons....with the exception to wolfhunter dungeons I have queued as healer and tank as a dps and completed everyone with competent players as dps. You dont need tank and heals for normal dungeons.

You know the reason for fake tanks has to do with not wanting to wait in queue for 45 mins just to complete dailies for the purpose of leveling undaunted, right? My suggestion....dont make the undaunted grind so tedious. Or change undaunted mettle to give 1%/2% increased dmg against dungeon/trails mobs. Then, as a pvp player, I wont feel compelled to run randoms on all my alts just to maximize stats.

Merlin13KAGL

• Do your [removed profanity] role.
• Don't *** the queue.
• Role certification (historical proof after so many runs, not just gear, skills, or stats) would effectively eliminate this.

Qbiken

smacky wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Another one of these threads? In my experience this is not nearly as problematic as people claim. Got a fake-/bad tank? Block or dodge roll boss heavy attacks. Got a fake/bad healer? Heal/shield yourself. Sure it’s a slight DPS loss having to modify your playstyle to make up for others, but you don’t need to be so dependent on random strangers performing their role well.

Obviously you have never done Vet Scalecaller

No one in their right mind think you should queue for a role you can´t perform on veteran difficulty (and with a few exceptions of 2-3 DLC dungeons on normal), and neither do I. But when I do a random normal for the daily experience boost I can´t be bothered what roles other people are queuing as.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

LordSarevok wrote: »

Normal dungeons, barring the DLCs, do not need a tank. They are for fun, casual play, and are for players to learn the mechanics before moving on the harder content which often DOES require a tank. When you queue in a random, you need to understand that you are sharing the queue with other players who may or may not have the same expectations as you, and you do NOT get to dictate how everyone else plays the game.

If you think you're supposed to start out of the gate as a tank, then by all means, do so to your own detriment (hint: you're not). If you are demanding that someone fills the tank roll to fulfill your dungeon role-play fantasy, then you need to be more pleasant so you can make friends who will see to your exacting needs. Otherwise, learn to share with the other kids and calm down.

PS. If I happen to fake queue in as a tank so that I can actually run the dungeon (probably just need gear farmed and/or felt like being social with new players), then you and your "I need a tank in a normal dungeon" self should feel lucky, because I will definitely be carrying you through there, and quickly.

There are, honestly, so many wrongthings here.

Normal dungeons are not meant for casual play. They are meant for non CP players (they cannot queue up for veteran) and CP players who cannot handle a veteran dungeon. There are several design flaws in the game that force elite players into beginners' content:

• You get the same random XP bonus yo uget in a veteran.
• You get holidays' drops.
• You can improve gear, so it's faster and easier to farm lower quality items.
• You can trade items.

The game is designed so that at least one player must be tank, one a healer and two damage dealers. This is the standard defined by the game itself. As such, I do not need to tell you or any other bored kid that I do expect a tank, since that is what the game defines as normal. You should state your deviated desire to run ahead and pull everything without a healer and tank instead, since that is no what the game was designed for.

Players are getting stronger, but content difficulty does not change. A year ago many people were struggling with City of Ash 2. Now yo ucan PUG vMOL.

On the other hand, macho man, if you can solo it on normal (you are carrying everyone), just solo it.

I see a lot of under age bored kids in-game who just need to show off because adult content freely available on the Internet is not enough to keep them entertained. And real life require social skills that go eyond what you need to do in the Sims. ESO pays the price of this cancer. Now more than ever, since elementary and high school are closed.

idk

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

• Do your F'n role.
• Don't *** the queue.
• Role certification (historical proof after so many runs, not just gear, skills, or stats) would effectively eliminate this.

As pointed out earlier it takes one skill and no special gear to tank. Dps can heal with one or two heals.

What kind of certification is required to ensure someone has those few skills unlocked

If that’s not enough then we better start talking about the certification for damage dealers.

Navras

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

• Do your F'n role.
• Don't *** the queue.
• Role certification (historical proof after so many runs, not just gear, skills, or stats) would effectively eliminate this.

This.
Rate the player, don't report him. We live in the social era so "be social".

Back in my World of Warcraft pug days, I used to join pugs using a social website called "OpenRaid" who offered calendar, activities' organization and a rating system to be fulfilled after each run.

Bad rating = no more pugs buddy (or no more good groups)

It should be awesome to have something similar in ESO and it might encourage people to play decently and offer a better experience to anyone else.

Meld777

Of course a simple "mark as fake" feature that would ban a person from queuing for a while could be abused, but not if you combine it with checks.

Let's say a tank can only be marked as "fake tank" if he doesn't cast taunt on bosses. Example: You engage the first boss and kill him (or wipe to him). From this moment on, the party dropdown of the tank has a second option next to "vote to kick", which is called "kick as fake". If the tank isn't kicked and taunts the boss that comes after, the option disappears again, i.e. it only appears after a kill/wipe of a boss that has not been taunted by the tank a single time.

For a healer, the "kick as fake" should show up when less than ~33% of the group heals come from the healer (during the whole dungeon run), i.e. extremely low HPS proportion of all group healing that takes place. For comparison: Even for a terribad healer, spamming mutagen or healing ward during a whole run with 3 mag NBs, the healer would probably still have 80%+ group heals.

Since the additional "role check" prevents abuse, 2 (instead of 3) votes should be enough to kick the faker to take some power away from the fake role farmers that run with their buddy and prevent kicks this way.

Once kicked for a fake role, there should be a timeout to use the group finder, for example 6 hours, and a "probation cooldown" of, let's say, 3 days. If you get kicked again for fake role during probation, the timeout doubles and the probation time is renewed. If you continue queueing with fake role, the maximum timeout timer should be capped at 3 days.

There you go, abuse-free system that would solve all issues, while making it pretty much impossible for new/bad players to trigger a false positive, unless they are absolutely not performing their role.

When you get kicked for fake role, a window should pop up, explaining what the minimum requirements for each role are (healer should heal, tank should taunt).

What do you think?

ZeroXFF

Queued as DD on my new werewolf for nMHK yesterday. Got a proper group composition. However the tank was really bad (didn't follow mechanics even after they were explained) despite 40k+ HP and CP cap. He left after a few failed attempts on the enraging werewolf boss. So I switched to tank setup while we wait for a new tank. 3-manned the boss.

After that a new "tank" joins. Stam sorc with 16k HP. On first trash pack everything runs around, healer is kiting a bunch of mobs, you get the picture. So I switch to tank to be done with that dungeon.

So essentially I just wanted a relaxed and fun run as a WW, so I wait like everyone else in the queue for half an hour just to end up tanking the dungeon anyways. In hindsight I should have just voted to kick that ***.

Another story...
Running vet blessed crucible on magsorc. We get a "tank" stamblade. We wipe twice on last boss because she was chasing random people and group dps was abysmal because of the boss running around and us having to ress each other all the time. After I tell the "tank" to slot a taunt, he tells me about his awesome 50k dps. I point out that group dps is less than what I could do by myself if the boss stood still, and that maybe if his dps is so great, he should queue as one.

After a couple insults from this "tank" we try again. The boss ends up on me most of the time. We complete it that time because the boss stuck to me most of the time and I was pulling my vMA moves with dodge rolling the heavy attacks and shielding everything else.

After that he of course tells everyone how he is so awesome and did most of the damage with no regard for the fact that I was busy shielding and dodging to keep his sorry *** alive.

So the moral of the story is, when I queue as DD, I want to do damage, not tank, and I expect the same of everyone else.

And @ everyone defending the fake role practice... If you want to run with a non-standard group composition, YOU should be the one making a group without the LFG tool, not people who are actually using it as intended.

paulychan

Every single person I meet and start running with in eso wants to queue up as fake tanks and heals. You can steamroll it, they say. I can solo this, they say. Then, it’s sccalecaller peak with 4 dps. At an average of 7k dps each(I swear it’s true) and no clue how to burn thru the mechanics. Time wasted. Or it’s cradle of shadows normal and the team wipes 30 times before even seeing the boss. Or DSC 2...
It’s not a game issue, not a community issue. It’s just entitled, selfish jerks wasting people’s time

LordSarevok

Daus wrote: »

You think that's bad? It's rare that I don't get a fake DPS.

I agree. On my dps characters I might see a fake tank or healer 1/10 times... maybe. But no matter what char I play I see fake dps 5/10 times easily.

LordSarevok

It's very easy to complain about the fake tanks in this game, but remember one thing, damage dealers probably out number pure tanks/healers by a wide margin. Want to know why? What is the basic principle of this game, to kill mobs and or complete quests (usually requires killing)? Try playing a pure trials tank or healer in a solo manner. I's not fun. When I am collecting resource nodes on my tank, I avoid even the skeevers because its a long fight. I can't solo quest without having to fully change gear/CP to be able to reasonably complete them. On the other hand I can jump on my mag sorc and steamroll pretty much anything. I love my tank, and it is my main, but outside of challenging trials/dlc dungeons, he is u.s.e.l.e.s.s.

So tldr: There are a shortage of tanks/healers because we suck at 90% of the game. Dps characters can either solo or group dps 90% of the game. That's why you see such an overwhelming amount of the population who are dps, and why it takes forever to queue as one. That's why they cheat the system.

LordSarevok

Maybe we would see more support classes if they changed how our skills work? Like maybe as a tank our aggro builds a dot that gets stronger to kill mobs, or reflective damage that scales up the longer you get beat on? What if a healer targets a mob with a heal, make it do damage, or a similar reflect system? And if you are worried about end game activities being easier in that case, raise the hp of the mobs, or make them reflect immune.

Edit: to add last sentence.

LordSarevok

I guess what I am saying is you are trying to put a band-aid on a slashed artery. The root problem lies with the fact that we see a shortage of support characters due to them being useless most of the time. If they had more usefulness we would see the player population rise and queue times would lower quite a bit for dps chars, reducing the "fake" issues by quite a bit.

Edit: Spelling

kargen27

Personally I don't think there is much that can be done because there is a shortage of tanks in the game. When you kick a fake tank you end up with two bad choices. Try to three man the dungeon or wait around for what can be a good long time for another tank. I guess there is a third option, ask in guild chat if someone can come in and bail the group out. Any sort of report and punish system opens itself up to abuse. We all know there are elites out there that might report a tank for not gathering the trash or for being the wrong race. We also know there are a few people that will report just for the hell of it. Same goes but to a lessor extent with healers.

The one thing I do is refuse to run dungeons with guild members that I know are signing up for fake roles. One came in on a fake tank even though I told him he shouldn't do it. After first fight I told him he needed to log off that character and get his tank before we continue. He agreed and everything went well from there.

With preformed groups we bring in fake tanks all the time just to fill the roles but we all know it is happening and are able to deal with that. With a PUG there is a chance one or more players are going to need a real tank or healer. To many people assume because they don't need a tank/healer others will not either and of course we get the players that really do not care. They just want to get to the front of the line. It is a problem but I'm not sure it is a problem that can be fixed other than by the playing community.

DMuehlhausen

Thrain wrote: »

e1team wrote: »

Thing is fakes think its totally ok and if something goes wrong, its never their fault. Yesterday I was pugging (as a sorc healer), think it was nSpindleclutch II, and we got two DDs below 50, me at cp300 and a cp780 fake tank. Before we even reached first boss, he rushed ahead, out of heal range, pulled all the trash and, sure enough, got insta gibbed. Then he's like "we don't have a healer or what?" "No" I say "we don't have a tank". Then him: "Who needs tank on normal?"... gee...

Cp 780 and dies in spindledutch 2?



If someone join a dungeon as fake tank then he should be able to solo this dungeon otherwhise he shouldnt even try it instead blaming it on the healer

To a point he's right. If everyone would have been moving together you don't need tanks, and almost not even healers on normal.

josiahva

smacky wrote: »

It used t be occasionally that you would queue for a a random normal dungeon, and get a Fake Tank or Healer (ie: DPS queuing as a role they cannot perform).

In the last week I have encountered no less than 12 Fake Tanks - Typically Pet Scors queud as Tanks (No Ice Staff) and at least 20 Healers who were not healers.

Since I spend up tp 40 minutes queuing for a dungeon, to then get Scalecaller Peak with a fake tank and/or healer means it simply cannot be done, especially on Vet.
Can we have some kind of reporting system, where if someobody is a repeat offender, they are warned, then perhaps sanctioned in some way.

Possible Options:
1. Disable the role they are "abusing"
2 .Temporary ban from the game 3 days or so.

DPS is something that is imossible to monitor, but it is also the easiest class to replace almost instantly, where we have to wait for tanks and healers.

In pre-fromed groups, prevent the ability to report (as it would be discussed before entering the dungeon)

This is something which affects other players gameplay, and if we leave the dungeon, we have 15 minute penalty to queue again.

Simply kick them if they arent performing their role...thats what the kick button is for.

I have no problem pugging vet DLC dungeons with an 85%+ successful completion rate.

Ashtaris

pdblake wrote: »

Could it just be down to ignorance?

My main character is a magicka sorceror. I use light armour, destruction staff, have a couple of crafted sets geared towards magicka regen and boost, use Deadric Summoning and Storm Calling.

I have no idea what role I would be in a group or even what my DPS is (or how to find out), which is why I play solo most of the time (being only level 38 has something to do with that too).

With the vast resources of the internet, ignorance is not an option. Here is a dungeon guide put out by ZOS:

ESO Dungeon Guide: The Basics

Many of the things I have learned from this game has come from reading the forums, reddit posts, watching YouTube/Twitch streams, and other internet resources along with my own in-game experience. Plus it helped greatly when I joined a guild and could ask questions without being put down in zone chat. Guilds are a great resource of experienced players.

EDIT: BTW @ZOS_GinaBruno, the dungeon guide above needs a bit of updating being a year old now

CyberSkooma

Guys, you'll never stop this from happening. It happens in every MMO ever. Find people to fill your group manually, or accept the PUGs. It's just the way it is.

What about the "fake tanks" that think they're actually tanks but they're just bad? What about the people queuing up as DPS only hitting 4k? The healers spamming breath of life? I mean honestly, you need to consider all these things.

Don't have real friends to get together and play with? Join a guild, even a casual one, to find people to help fill roles. Very easy solution.

mattaeus01b16_ESO

3 random normals, 3 fake tanks, 3 times the party refused to kick, 3 times I found myself with a penalty to reQ, so I can then Q up and wait an hour to get into a group with a fake tank.
.
.
.
So I found myself walking away from the game in the meantime.

Starlock

kargen27 wrote: »

Personally I don't think there is much that can be done because there is a shortage of tanks in the game.

Nah, of course there is.

Be the change you want to see in the game.

-

*-*-*-

I'll confess I tend to not notice any issues with tanks... because most of the time I am the tank. As far as dungeon roles go, four of my seven characters tank in some capacity or another, while the remaining three heal in some capacity or another. I have one dedicated tank, and one dedicated healer; the rest are hybrid roles of some flavor or another. For better or worse, I was taught that my damage dealing capabilities suck, so I gave up on trying to be a damage dealer and stick to the other two roles.

Honestly, my main complaints as someone who mainly does tanking and healing are:

• Folks who run around like their pants are on fire. When I'm healing, this just makes my job harder than it needs to be. Sometimes I appreciate the challenge, but other times I want to yell "can you stand still for two seconds?! You're not standing in red!" It's especially unacceptable if the tank does this. My standards for tanking are low. They are basically "if you have aggro, stand still and block (unless mechanics require otherwise)." I'm on a healer... I've got you.
• Folks who run ahead and pull all the aggro when they aren't the tank. If they can handle it fine, though it's still mildly annoying in a "why am I even in this group" sort of way. When they then proceed to die and whine about the tank or healer "not doing their job?" Yeah, if you want to Leroy Jenkins through the dungeon, the screw up is on you... not your team. If I'm in a bad mood, I might just "forget" to taunt the boss off you or heal you for the remainder of the dungeon if you don't knock it off.

ruikkarikun

Let's talk about normal. Only NORMAL AGAIN.

For example I need to farm set, but there is no one from guild or zone to help. This is broken system then. They should make all versions of dungeons for solo one man also, so problem will be solved in 50-70% cases.

Otherwise we have what we have now.

Amadis001

EvilCroc wrote: »

Community needs to cultivate zero-tolerance behavior against fake-role players.
Yesterday I started kick-vote on fake tank and the first question in chat was "why kick?"
I left after vote-kick was failed and I'm going to do this any time I will see fake role. Start vote-kick and leave after fail. Any role of mine. Any dungeon, even fungal 1 normal.
No matter how hard it will be to play dungeons with such attitude.

That. Vote to kick, leave if the vote fails. That's the only way for me to stay chill in the face of fake tanks and healers everywhere. People who want to play that way are welcome to go in as a group and do their thing. But if I'm grouped with you, I expect the common courtesy of people trying to do the roles they signed up for.

kargen27

Starlock wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Personally I don't think there is much that can be done because there is a shortage of tanks in the game.

Nah, of course there is.

Be the change you want to see in the game.

-

*-*-*-

I'll confess I tend to not notice any issues with tanks... because most of the time I am the tank. As far as dungeon roles go, four of my seven characters tank in some capacity or another, while the remaining three heal in some capacity or another. I have one dedicated tank, and one dedicated healer; the rest are hybrid roles of some flavor or another. For better or worse, I was taught that my damage dealing capabilities suck, so I gave up on trying to be a damage dealer and stick to the other two roles.

Honestly, my main complaints as someone who mainly does tanking and healing are:

• Folks who run around like their pants are on fire. When I'm healing, this just makes my job harder than it needs to be. Sometimes I appreciate the challenge, but other times I want to yell "can you stand still for two seconds?! You're not standing in red!" It's especially unacceptable if the tank does this. My standards for tanking are low. They are basically "if you have aggro, stand still and block (unless mechanics require otherwise)." I'm on a healer... I've got you.
• Folks who run ahead and pull all the aggro when they aren't the tank. If they can handle it fine, though it's still mildly annoying in a "why am I even in this group" sort of way. When they then proceed to die and whine about the tank or healer "not doing their job?" Yeah, if you want to Leroy Jenkins through the dungeon, the screw up is on you... not your team. If I'm in a bad mood, I might just "forget" to taunt the boss off you or heal you for the remainder of the dungeon if you don't knock it off.

Did you not read my message to the end? I concluded with the answer being left to us players.

Kurat

Everybody needs to stop this reporting, kicking or banning crap. When I queue as DD I rather get some fake tank or healer after 40 min than wait for 2 hours for real one. At least I get a chance to try to complete the dungeon. And usually we can unless it's vet dlc one.
I have to admit I queue as fake tank myself sometimes but only for normals.
The problem is not the people it's the game. Other than trials and vet dlc dungeons playing as tank is boring af. There's simply no content for tanks that's why there's shortage. Please add some activities for tanks and a lot more people would play them and dungeon finder times will come down. Why can't there be some world bosses for example that would require a real tank to complete due to mechanic or 1 shot etc. Or some dvelves designed for tanks only or, some kind a special survival arena like vMA except no killing, save some NPC or guide them throu, keep em alive etc. Maybe some tank only acheivements, titles or skins. Why not even implement similar medal system like in Battlegrounds or more xp for damage absorbed, anything. There are so many things they could do to make tanks more attractive.

SteveCampsOut

Lamiai wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

How about running these dungeons with your friends and guildies, instead of banning random people for such a stupid reason

Does it really needed to be said that not everyone joins guilds, has friends playing or just doesn't want to guild up?

Those are choices you make.