Fake PUG Roles

Mintaka5

A comment I made on https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/ in response to, "Queue as tank even tho your DPS."

Please don't. Unless you are a DPS capable of tanking and holding a boss. As a DPS sorc I have a really tough time holding high damage due to stacking shields from heavy boss attacks. I hate hate hate when a tank queue comes in and does DPS because they assume that everyone else can handle the same level of damage that a tank should. The dungeon mechanic just doesn't favor it unless everyone in the dungeon are god-like players. Do what I do have a toon for each type of role, and run what the dungeon requires and don't ruin the enjoyment of the game for other players.

smacky

idk wrote: »

The suggestion from OP is worse than the problem.

1. We have seen players abuse the system before. Back when the group leader could kick a player it often happens for absurd reasons. It still does considering a CP called player commenters here this weekend he was kicked from the start by CP300 group because he didn’t have a vMA bow.

2. Everyone has their own opinion of what a fake tank is and some are pretty extreme. It would be stupid to give players the power to ge a player banned or limit ther game play because of an oppinion.

Not to worry. Zos can see how bad this idea is. Yes. I queue up as a tank on my dps sometimes as a healer. I have mostly damage skills on my bar and tend to do most of the damage for the group.

Have a problem with GF the I really suggest forming your own group. It’s very easy.

You obviously chose to read the post in part only.

To have a reporting system where people are repeatedly reported by different people to then receive a warning that they are doing something wihch is negatively impacting others, along with some suggestions on how to fix it is in my opinion very reasonable,

2. A Tank by definition is someone who has and uses a Taunt. Continual failure to taunt bosses is a pretty straight forard definition of fake tanking, and ZoS could easily define that requirement.

3. Forming your own group is not always an option, hence the reason the dungeon finder exists. To tell someone to form their own group instead of using a function built into the game, which is being INTENTIONALLY incorrectly used by some people is absurd.

smacky

FakeFox wrote: »

How do you want to determine if someone is a "offender" or not. There are really no clearly set role requirements for tanks, healers and DDs. How do you want to define if someone is fulfilling the role "properly"?
To give a few examples:
1. A experienced DD queues as a tank and has a taunt on his bar or holds aggro without taunting but otherwise a full DPS build. Is this a reportable offence? Is he fulfilling the role worse then a new player playing standard tank build but letting taunt run out constantly and dying many times?
2. What does it take for me to be a healer, do I need to properly buff and wear support sets? Then 90% of actual healers are disqualified. However if that is not required why can't I go in with my magblade and offheal a bit with funnel? If someone dies how do you want to know it's the "fake healers" fault and that a proper healer would have saved the person?
3. But the most interesting part that never gets talked about is DD. How much DPS do you need to queue as a DD? If I am the second DD and 70% group DPS can I report you now and you get banned for not being good enough?

I think this should make very clear that such a system need clearly defined role requirement and setting those is firstly very difficult and secondly does not even solve the problem.

1. No it is not - they are using ataunt and therefore tanking. I am not suggesting that bad tanks be reported, just that fake tanks be reported.
2. to be a healer, you need to actually be healing, at least have a resto staff with some healing abilities. Coming in with a lightnint / fire staff combo is the givewaway that the healer is a fake healer.
3. 3. PLEASE READ THE ORIGINAL POST - I clearly mentioned DPS! This is about people pugging for roles they are not performing. Not because they are not great tanks / healers or dps, but because they are not actually being a tank or healer when that is what they queued as.

Salvas_Aren

smacky wrote: »

2. to be a healer, you need to actually be healing, at least have a resto staff with some healing abilities. Coming in with a lightnint / fire staff combo is the givewaway that the healer is a fake healer.

My damage healer sports a fire lightning combo. Helps me doing 15k while keeping the group alive with templer and Psijic skills in Vet dungeons.

Try again.

smacky

LordSarevok wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

How do you want to determine if someone is a "offender" or not. There are really no clearly set role requirements for tanks, healers and DDs. How do you want to define if someone is fulfilling the role "properly"?
To give a few examples:
1. A experienced DD queues as a tank and has a taunt on his bar or holds aggro without taunting but otherwise a full DPS build. Is this a reportable offence? Is he fulfilling the role worse then a new player playing standard tank build but letting taunt run out constantly and dying many times?
2. What does it take for me to be a healer, do I need to properly buff and wear support sets? Then 90% of actual healers are disqualified. However if that is not required why can't I go in with my magblade and offheal a bit with funnel? If someone dies how do you want to know it's the "fake healers" fault and that a proper healer would have saved the person?
3. But the most interesting part that never gets talked about is DD. How much DPS do you need to queue as a DD? If I am the second DD and 70% group DPS can I report you now and you get banned for not being good enough?

I think this should make very clear that such a system need clearly defined role requirement and setting those is firstly very difficult and secondly does not even solve the problem.

But... But... His feelings! Good post, very on point. And nothing makes me drop out of a dungeon group faster than watching the two "Dps" light attack a trash mob for about 3k dps.

I think the only real fix is a licensing system like Gran Turismo. Want to queue as a tank? Sure! Just complete this gauntlet, keep aggro, and stay alive! Bam! License B acquired! Want to get License A? Just complete this gauntlet, keep aggro, learn to bash interrupt, chain mobs into AoE's, keep debuffs up as much as possible, and keep group members alive!

Now this won't eradicate the problem, but when you see someone after the fact not doing their job at least decently (having the licensing), you can chalk it up to willful disregard and confidently vote to kick.

Ina sense I agree with you, that there should at least be tutorials in game on basic tanking requirements, eg, Taunt / Interrupt / Block / Shield.

The idea I am putting forward is that if you continually fake a role, you get some education on what you are doing and how it is affecting others.

I agree also that 3k dps is ridiculously low, but at CP160, you should be able to to 6-8k minimum with nothing but light attack since they increased the damage.

smacky

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

smacky wrote: »

2. to be a healer, you need to actually be healing, at least have a resto staff with some healing abilities. Coming in with a lightnint / fire staff combo is the givewaway that the healer is a fake healer.

My damage healer sports a fire lightning combo. Helps me doing 15k while keeping the group alive with templer and Psijic skills in Vet dungeons.

Try again.

So everyone in the game has summerset?

HiLyfe808

I do share your frustrations, it is annoying when your doing some vet dungeons and a fake role is making the dungeon harder then it really should be.

I was in a vet dungeon once with my healer friend, we get in the dungeon and there is another healer. I asked in chat why there was two healers and the rando healer said oh i queued as a tank and healer. So now we were stuck with two healers, it was a great experience lol.

There has to be another way to handle this problem though. I really can see a reporting system getting out of hand where people will go report happy and even if it is false and end up getting innocent people temp ban.

Best thing to do like i seen on some replies is just to vote to kick or if it gets really bad just leave. Sucks and its a waste of time to go through it but it's more of a time sink if you stay.

Salvas_Aren

smacky wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

smacky wrote: »

2. to be a healer, you need to actually be healing, at least have a resto staff with some healing abilities. Coming in with a lightnint / fire staff combo is the givewaway that the healer is a fake healer.

My damage healer sports a fire lightning combo. Helps me doing 15k while keeping the group alive with templer and Psijic skills in Vet dungeons.

Try again.

So everyone in the game has summerset?

So nobody in the game has summerset?

smacky

Xk3koax wrote: »

I do share your frustrations, it is annoying when your doing some vet dungeons and a fake role is making the dungeon harder then it really should be.

I was in a vet dungeon once with my healer friend, we get in the dungeon and there is another healer. I asked in chat why there was two healers and the rando healer said oh i queued as a tank and healer. So now we were stuck with two healers, it was a great experience lol.

There has to be another way to handle this problem though. I really can see a reporting system getting out of hand where people will go report happy and even if it is false and end up getting innocent people temp ban.

Best thing to do like i seen on some replies is just to vote to kick or if it gets really bad just leave. Sucks and its a waste of time to go through it but it's more of a time sink if you stay.

While I would like to agree with you, the problem is you wiat 40 mins to get into a dungeon, how long do you need to wait for another tank, and hope they actually are a tank by vote kicking?

Also if they join with a friend, you can't vote kick, and if you leave, you get the 15 minute queue penalty timer.

Eso101rus

I think having a system where people can be reported and receive bans for fake role reporting will not happen and would set a dangerous precedent. What needs to happen is people need to quit pissing around select their actual role, this would increase the speed at which you get a dungeon as the group finder queues are backed up with failing groups because some fool couldn’t be bothered waiting then has the nerve to call the rest of the group less competent. A good tank will provide debuffs, taunt, add control and maybe even group buffs and heals, this helps speed up dungeons quicker than 4 dps, and yes I think healers are more or less not needed for most content in dungeons.

PlagueSD

Thrain wrote: »

e1team wrote: »

Obviously we need an automated solution to this and not "reporting them to ZOS". It's ridiculous. Most likely class and stats check before entering dungeon. Someone already suggested that the class helper (or whatever it is called) could be used for that purpose. I'm ok with all the fake thing if fakes can carry the group through. In yesterdays example, our fake tank just melted everything granted I was spamming heals on him. But it was quick and easy.

then whats about a real tank with like 20k health but he tanks with his dmg shields?

Or my sap tank with 32k health that tanks by self healing.


I actually don't have a problem with "fake" roles (well, maybe fake DPS) because when I'm on my tank, I queue with my RL buddy (healer). I do enough damage that we can handle 2 fake DPS in normal dungeons. I don't EVER solo queue for the dungeonfinder. That's just crazy...

HiLyfe808

smacky wrote: »

while I would like to agree with you, the problem is you wiat 40 mins to get into a dungeon, how long do you need to wait for another tank, and hope they actually are a tank by vote kicking?

Also if they join with a friend, you can't vote kick, and if you leave, you get the 15 minute queue penalty timer.

I still feel the reporting system will get out of hand. I don't want see people who actually queued correctly, get temp bans because *** bags decided i didn't like they way they healed, DPS, or tanked.

Dude i'm a DD myself so like i said in my original post i feel your pain. I hate to leave have a time penalty and re-queue trust me. Whether you agree with me or not i still don't think a reporting system is the answer to this problem.

smacky

Xk3koax wrote: »

smacky wrote: »

while I would like to agree with you, the problem is you wiat 40 mins to get into a dungeon, how long do you need to wait for another tank, and hope they actually are a tank by vote kicking?

Also if they join with a friend, you can't vote kick, and if you leave, you get the 15 minute queue penalty timer.

I still feel the reporting system will get out of hand. I don't want see people who actually queued correctly, get temp bans because *** bags decided i didn't like they way they healed, DPS, or tanked.

Dude i'm a DD myself so like i said in my original post i feel your pain. I hate to leave have a time penalty and re-queue trust me. Whether you agree with me or not i still don't think a reporting system is the answer to this problem.

I can respect that, but something need to be done.

One of the reasons I suggest that 5 seperate groups would have to report someone is to avoid it being abused. Not to mention, I am not saying ban the person upfront, but rather educate them. A ban would only apply for a person who continued to do it after they were warned / educated.

3 months ago, I would not have cared, this happened 1 in 10 times at worst. Now it is closer to 3 in 5 times.
It has gotten to the point where it is ridiculous, and something needs to be done about it.

Perhaps ZOS could only allow you to queue as a tank if you have a Taunt slotted as an alternative.

p00tx

Normal dungeons, barring the DLCs, do not need a tank. They are for fun, casual play, and are for players to learn the mechanics before moving on the harder content which often DOES require a tank. When you queue in a random, you need to understand that you are sharing the queue with other players who may or may not have the same expectations as you, and you do NOT get to dictate how everyone else plays the game.

If you think you're supposed to start out of the gate as a tank, then by all means, do so to your own detriment (hint: you're not). If you are demanding that someone fills the tank roll to fulfill your dungeon role-play fantasy, then you need to be more pleasant so you can make friends who will see to your exacting needs. Otherwise, learn to share with the other kids and calm down.

PS. If I happen to fake queue in as a tank so that I can actually run the dungeon (probably just need gear farmed and/or felt like being social with new players), then you and your "I need a tank in a normal dungeon" self should feel lucky, because I will definitely be carrying you through there, and quickly.

smacky

p00tx wrote: »

Normal dungeons, barring the DLCs, do not need a tank. They are for fun, casual play, and are for players to learn the mechanics before moving on the harder content which often DOES require a tank. When you queue in a random, you need to understand that you are sharing the queue with other players who may or may not have the same expectations as you, and you do NOT get to dictate how everyone else plays the game.

If you think you're supposed to start out of the gate as a tank, then by all means, do so to your own detriment (hint: you're not). If you are demanding that someone fills the tank roll to fulfill your dungeon role-play fantasy, then you need to be more pleasant so you can make friends who will see to your exacting needs. Otherwise, learn to share with the other kids and calm down.

PS. If I happen to fake queue in as a tank so that I can actually run the dungeon (probably just need gear farmed and/or felt like being social with new players), then you and your "I need a tank in a normal dungeon" self should feel lucky, because I will definitely be carrying you through there, and quickly.

If you want to learn to tank ... have a TAUNT, that is all I'm asking of people. It costs you 1 skill point!
And if you did this on any DLC Dungeon you would be causing the group to fail.

idk

karekiz wrote: »

Vet needs to be more strict. I know the tank/ 3 DPS is a thing, but its a thing for experienced players who already know the dungeon/class etc.

Normals? You don't need a tank or healer.

Forming ones own group is where one can be strict.

The one rule that will always persists is if you sit back and let GF form your party then your rolling the dice on every aspect of the party sighing the level restrictions for each dungeon.

KnightVI

I get annoyed when I see someone queue as a fake healer or tank just to skip the queue times. Only one way to describe those kind of people. Selfish.

What annoys me more however, is people starting a vote kick before we've even started! Im CP 575 and I still occasionally get vote kicked as a DPS instantly on loading in. So then I have to wait for a 20minute timer to finish because apparently I abandoned the activity!!

As if that somehow means I must be bad at the game. I've seen many CP750 who were awful at the game, and I easily pull 30k+ DPS on a solo test dummy. Elitist pricks.

WrathOfInnos

Another one of these threads? In my experience this is not nearly as problematic as people claim. Got a fake/bad tank? Block or dodge roll boss heavy attacks. Got a fake/bad healer? Heal/shield yourself. Sure it’s a slight DPS loss having to modify your playstyle to make up for others, but you don’t need to be so dependent on random strangers performing their role well.

smacky

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Another one of these threads? In my experience this is not nearly as problematic as people claim. Got a fake-/bad tank? Block or dodge roll boss heavy attacks. Got a fake/bad healer? Heal/shield yourself. Sure it’s a slight DPS loss having to modify your playstyle to make up for others, but you don’t need to be so dependent on random strangers performing their role well.

Obviously you have never done Vet Scalecaller

idk

smacky wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

How do you want to determine if someone is a "offender" or not. There are really no clearly set role requirements for tanks, healers and DDs. How do you want to define if someone is fulfilling the role "properly"?
To give a few examples:
1. A experienced DD queues as a tank and has a taunt on his bar or holds aggro without taunting but otherwise a full DPS build. Is this a reportable offence? Is he fulfilling the role worse then a new player playing standard tank build but letting taunt run out constantly and dying many times?
2. What does it take for me to be a healer, do I need to properly buff and wear support sets? Then 90% of actual healers are disqualified. However if that is not required why can't I go in with my magblade and offheal a bit with funnel? If someone dies how do you want to know it's the "fake healers" fault and that a proper healer would have saved the person?
3. But the most interesting part that never gets talked about is DD. How much DPS do you need to queue as a DD? If I am the second DD and 70% group DPS can I report you now and you get banned for not being good enough?

I think this should make very clear that such a system need clearly defined role requirement and setting those is firstly very difficult and secondly does not even solve the problem.

1. No it is not - they are using ataunt and therefore tanking. I am not suggesting that bad tanks be reported, just that fake tanks be reported.
2. to be a healer, you need to actually be healing, at least have a resto staff with some healing abilities. Coming in with a lightnint / fire staff combo is the givewaway that the healer is a fake healer.
3. 3. PLEASE READ THE ORIGINAL POST - I clearly mentioned DPS! This is about people pugging for roles they are not performing. Not because they are not great tanks / healers or dps, but because they are not actually being a tank or healer when that is what they queued as.

Pretty much irrelevant what your suggesting along these lines.

Someone doesn’t like the way the tank moves or their speed and they can be reposted u see your proposed system.

It doesn’t matter what your proposing. What matters is how it would be used.

Someone thinks a damage dealer is not doing enough and they get reported.

You’re suggestion is a system ripe for abuse.

WrathOfInnos

smacky wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Another one of these threads? In my experience this is not nearly as problematic as people claim. Got a fake-/bad tank? Block or dodge roll boss heavy attacks. Got a fake/bad healer? Heal/shield yourself. Sure it’s a slight DPS loss having to modify your playstyle to make up for others, but you don’t need to be so dependent on random strangers performing their role well.

Obviously you have never done Vet Scalecaller

I have the Mountain God achievement, and made most of my gold selling motifs when they were giving double drops in HM. I’ve also run vet Scalecaller many times without a tank or healer.

kathandira

smacky wrote: »

It used t be occasionally that you would queue for a a random normal dungeon, and get a Fake Tank or Healer....

I accidentally did this for the first time the other day. I felt horrible! Especially because it was a dungeon i've never done before.

I used to play on Xbox at CP 250ish, and stopped for 2 years, so there is a lot of content I didn't see (left right before Morrowwind). Now i'm back on PS4, and having a good time. I play DPS currently, but had queued up as a Tank with some friends doing an easy run with 4 DPS.

Sadly, I forgot to switch back from my Tank role, and ended up in a dungeon I hadn't done yet. Fortunately, the group was on the last boss, so I didn't have to worry too much. The thing that was really annoying is that I was rushing to type out my apologies and explanation, but it didn't come with the proper empathy I wanted to convey. I was willing to leave so they can get a real tank since I felt really bad. But they ended up telling me to just hurry up and get "carried". I got the feeling they were not very pleased with me mis-queuing and I couldn't quickly express my apologies.

Well...lesson learned, i'll be more careful in the future.

smacky

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

smacky wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Another one of these threads? In my experience this is not nearly as problematic as people claim. Got a fake-/bad tank? Block or dodge roll boss heavy attacks. Got a fake/bad healer? Heal/shield yourself. Sure it’s a slight DPS loss having to modify your playstyle to make up for others, but you don’t need to be so dependent on random strangers performing their role well.

Obviously you have never done Vet Scalecaller

I have the Mountain God achievement, and made most of my gold selling motifs when they were giving double drops in HM. I’ve also run vet Scalecaller many times without a tank or healer.

In that case I can; possibly understand how you could say a tank or healer are not required, unless you are just be argumentative.

Salvas_Aren

I've been told that this thread made people pug as faketank, just because reasons.

At least you got some result.

Mix

This is a frustrating problem. For newer players the skill advisor system SHOULD be enough to educate them on what a tank or healer (or dps) should be doing.

I don't expect anyone in LFG to be perfect, ever. I do expect them to perform the role they selected.

Tank must have a taunt (of any kind) and be able to take damage such that said tank isn't dying because they are impossible to heal.

Healer must have ...a heal! If I get a "fake" healer that isn't even trying (not that they lack skill or experience but that they haven't thrown any heals of any kind...that's not acceptable)

That being said - if you are running normal Fungal 1 and you are a max level geared dps you can totally "tank" the place by throwing the Undaunted taunt on your bar and just doing your thing, because you can probably solo the place and it will just be a big faster with 3 other people!

@kathandira I almost did that yesterday for my random vet, I have never hit the cancel button so fast/hard. I had previously been "tank" for an easy dungeon with guildmates.

kathandira

Mix wrote: »

@kathandira I almost did that yesterday for my random vet, I have never hit the cancel button so fast/hard. I had previously been "tank" for an easy dungeon with guildmates.

Indeed. I was beyond embarrassed. Fortunately, it was just a normal dungeon, and the rest of the team likely didn't even need me there since I only do around 7k DPS atm.

(Just hit 160 recently and am researching a StamDK DPS Setup)

remilafo

[quote="smacky;d-431603"
Possible Options:
1. Disable the role they are "abusing"
2 .Temporary ban from the game 3 days or so.
[/quote]

You really don't want this, you haven't thought about it enough. This would literally kill the dungeon queue system for everyone.

As a player that can solo most content even the vet dungeons, my suggestions is rather than sticking to the trinity of classic mmo playstyle make yourself a Solo build suitable for vMA and bring it into a dungeon. Do any role.

If four people do this then, no healer, no dps and no tanks are needed.

Itacira

Other Fake PUG Roles :
- Ceramicist
- Gardener
- Dentist
- Janitor

FakeFox

smacky wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

How do you want to determine if someone is a "offender" or not. There are really no clearly set role requirements for tanks, healers and DDs. How do you want to define if someone is fulfilling the role "properly"?
To give a few examples:
1. A experienced DD queues as a tank and has a taunt on his bar or holds aggro without taunting but otherwise a full DPS build. Is this a reportable offence? Is he fulfilling the role worse then a new player playing standard tank build but letting taunt run out constantly and dying many times?
2. What does it take for me to be a healer, do I need to properly buff and wear support sets? Then 90% of actual healers are disqualified. However if that is not required why can't I go in with my magblade and offheal a bit with funnel? If someone dies how do you want to know it's the "fake healers" fault and that a proper healer would have saved the person?
3. But the most interesting part that never gets talked about is DD. How much DPS do you need to queue as a DD? If I am the second DD and 70% group DPS can I report you now and you get banned for not being good enough?

I think this should make very clear that such a system need clearly defined role requirement and setting those is firstly very difficult and secondly does not even solve the problem.

1. No it is not - they are using ataunt and therefore tanking. I am not suggesting that bad tanks be reported, just that fake tanks be reported.
2. to be a healer, you need to actually be healing, at least have a resto staff with some healing abilities. Coming in with a lightnint / fire staff combo is the givewaway that the healer is a fake healer.
3. 3. PLEASE READ THE ORIGINAL POST - I clearly mentioned DPS! This is about people pugging for roles they are not performing. Not because they are not great tanks / healers or dps, but because they are not actually being a tank or healer when that is what they queued as.

What you are presenting here is absolutely no basis for a system like you suggest. You define roles by factors that don't work out. If someone is very weak they might not be performing the role they are queuing for in exactly the same way someone does who queues intentionally for the wrong role. The decisive factors you name here do not necessarily describe the function of a role. Tanking does not necessarily equal having a taunt and healing does not equal having a healing staff. I never said that you did not mention DPS by the way. I just said that this point is mostly not mentioned or dismissed like in your case. Probably because most players making "fake role" threads are frustrated DDs. But whatever. The point is DD is actually the easiest to monitor as they are the only role that is simply defined by a single number, namely DPS.
But I'm actually curious how you want to decide if someone is not fulfilling the role out of bad intent or by simply being a bad player. Clearly you can't let the players decide as this would not be objective. Even if you require multiple reports, this system can still be abused. So do you want ZOS to collect data on every single dungeon run and have a staff member look through it and decide if someone gets reported?

Tsar_Gekkou

I spent 2 weeks trying to farm a Jorvuld's lightning staff. You wouldn't believe the amount of fake tanks and dps with sword and boards that I came across. And then the 15-minute queue timer makes sure that if you get into a failure of a group, you either have to sit on your thumbs in the dungeon, or sit on your thumbs after leaving. I don't think anything can be done about these people, as it's just how the community is. You either play with friends, or suffer the consequences.