Prepare to change all those sweet enchantments [PVE]

Namarkas · July 2018

So apparently with the infused trait patch they took a look at enchantments in general
long story short: backbar weapon abilities now proc backbar enchants/poisons, rather than the frontbar ones
This is live, endless hail animation canceled with a weapon swap to front

This is PTS

Same setup
So I guess bb infused bows with enchants instead of poisons is something worth considering

For magicka this is especially interesting though, since usually you use WoE backbar with a weapon damage glyph. Since you CANNOT PROC the Berserker
glyph with weapon skills like WoE (only light/hv), we will probably need to go infused backbar with a proc damage glyph, while having berserker front barred.

Overall I think this will be a damage increase for magicka at least

but @ZOS_GinaBruno maybe state that somewhere in the natch potes please, so when this thread drowns, people know regardless.

Turelus · July 2018

Interesting. Assuming this isn't a bug it might open up some new build ideas, with that new damage buff proc from poisons set as well...

Namarkas · July 2018

Tbh I don't think it is, in my opinion it should have always been that way. I mean I lace my arrow with lethal poison, unleash a rain of arrows....
and suddenly use magic from the dagger I drew in the meantime, and the poison never touches the enemy.
ok

Aliyavana · July 2018

Double post

Aliyavana · July 2018

@alcast

Liofa · July 2018

This is not intended for sure. It was the same thing back when people thought Torug's would be BiS. It got fixed but now it is back again. Do not make build that depend on this, most likely will be fixed just like it did before.

code65536 · July 2018

Liofa wrote: »

This is not intended for sure.

Um, back bar abilities procing front-bar enchants sounds a lot more unintended. I would personally consider this to be a fix for a longstanding quirk that made no sense and hope that they would keep this change. Good riddance to that nonsense of backbar procing frontbar.

Liofa · July 2018

code65536 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

This is not intended for sure.

Um, back bar abilities procing front-bar enchants sounds a lot more unintended. I would personally consider this to be a fix for a longstanding quirk that made no sense and hope that they would keep this change. Good riddance to that nonsense of backbar procing frontbar.

It would be good for me to be honest. I rather want this to stay so I can keep Weakening with Blockade and Crusher on front bar or the other way so yea ^^ Easy enchant uptimes! But it was fixed before so I think it will probably happen again.

TheYKcid · July 2018

Namarkas wrote: »

For magicka this is especially interesting though, since usually you use WoE backbar with a weapon damage glyph. Since you CANNOT PROC the Berserker
glyph with weapon skills like WoE (only light/hv), we will probably need to go infused backbar with a proc damage glyph, while having berserker front barred.

Very interesting point!

For my mag toons on live I typically get anywhere from 55-65% uptime on the infused zerker glyph, procced when I'm on my backbar to refresh blockade.

Keeping it on the frontbar would give it an uptime boost, while the elemental damage glyph on backbar will still enjoy close to 100% uptime through being reapplied automatically by blockade.

Almost definitely gonna be a DPS increase. Keeping my fingers crossed that this is an intended change, lol.

TheYKcid · July 2018

@Namarkas

Seeing as you have PTS access and are already investigating this change, could I request a little test for you to perform, please?

To give some context, here's how this would work on live—I have a nirnhoned frontbar weapon (say, a 2H), and an infused bow backbar (with a zerker glyph):

I fire a light attack from the backbar
quickly swap-cancel
arrow impacts my target (while I am on frontbar)

In this scenario, what currently happens on live is that the arrow will "inherit" the trait of the frontbar, while still proccing the glyph that was on the backbar. The result—it procs the zerker glyph, but I only receive 348 base WD (instead of 452), and the backbar glyph goes on cooldown for 10 seconds. It behaves as if it were not infused, since it got procced on a non-infused bar.

What I would like to know on the PTS is, if one was to do this exact sequence of actions, would I get an infused zerker proc, despite being on my non-infused frontbar when the arrow hits?

I suspect that it might, seeing as the game appears to be storing information about which bar the glyph originates from.

Namarkas · July 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Namarkas

Seeing as you have PTS access and are already investigating this change, could I request a little test for you to perform, please?

To give some context, here's how this would work on live—I have a nirnhoned frontbar weapon (say, a 2H), and an infused bow backbar (with a zerker glyph):
I fire a light attack from the backbar

quickly swap-cancel

arrow impacts my target (while I am on frontbar)

In this scenario, what currently happens on live is that the arrow will "inherit" the trait of the frontbar, while still proccing the glyph that was on the backbar. The result—it procs the zerker glyph, but I only receive 348 base WD (instead of 452), and the backbar glyph goes on cooldown for 10 seconds. It behaves as if it were not infused, since it got procced on a non-infused bar.

What I would like to know on the PTS is, if one was to do this exact sequence of actions, would I get an infused zerker proc, despite being on my non-infused frontbar when the arrow hits?

I suspect that it might, seeing as the game appears to be storing information about which bar the glyph originates from.

To answer your question first: yes, it is as you suspected on the PTS

you get the infused effect even though it lands while you are on your frontbar (a basically naked char with 1585 wd front went to 2064 wd and was able to redo the trick directly after the glyph expired)

And secondly: wth I didn't know that the berserker glyphs had such a long cd. I always had them on backbars/offhands were I thought the decreased duration was bad luck or simply the wrong bar, and therefore normal (or I had them on infused weapons anyway). It doesn't feel like 10 secs cd, but it is definately longer than I would have thought, thanks

TheYKcid · July 2018

Thanks a bomb for the test results!

That's actually a big relief to hear. Having to wait for the backbar light attack to land before swapping feels slow and awful on live. Nice to know that I'll be able to swap-cancel it next patch.

Now I'm reeaeally hoping this is an intended change and won't be reverted!

TheYKcid · July 2018

Oops, one small detail I need to confirm, just to make sure the results are accurate.

I noticed you gained 479 instead of 452. Is this because you had the +6% WD Aedric Spear passive slotted?

Sparr0w · July 2018

When tf was this a thing?

Namarkas · July 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

Oops, one small detail I need to confirm, just to make sure the results are accurate.

I noticed you gained 479 instead of 452. Is this because you had the +6% WD Aedric Spear passive slotted?

I defo had that passive unlocked, and I didn't bother to make 100% sure that I gain no extra damage whatsoever, only 95%

. I posted that number so it was clear that it was the infused effect, bc the regular one wouldn't have been strong enough

Nifty2g · July 2018

Hopefully this isn't intended. It would cause an unnecessary nerf to torug's pact

GaunterODim · July 2018

Could we get some clarification on if this a bug or not, please? This would really be an impactful change for pve. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Avran_Sylt · July 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

Hopefully this isn't intended. It would cause an unnecessary nerf to torug's pact

@Nifty2g

How does this nerf Torug's Pact? In the sense that backbar DoTs won't reliably make use of the ICD of the enchants made by Torug's Pact? Instead causing the player to rely on good la+spammable rotation? Which is borked because that ICD is now 1.4s on the frontbar, due to the multiplicative instead of additive change made a while back?

Nifty2g · July 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Hopefully this isn't intended. It would cause an unnecessary nerf to torug's pact

@Nifty2g

How does this nerf Torug's Pact? In the sense that backbar DoTs won't reliably make use of the ICD of the enchants made by Torug's Pact? Instead causing the player to rely on good la+spammable rotation?

It's full on easy mode, especially for tanking, dont even need to think about your uptimes

ruikkarikun · August 2018

Did I understand it right, that after this changes we need Infused Bow on backbar? (instead of nirn)?

And in general Infused will be better than nirnhoned for both magicka and stamina? (PVE)

Derra · August 2018

Liofa wrote: »

This is not intended for sure. It was the same thing back when people thought Torug's would be BiS. It got fixed but now it is back again. Do not make build that depend on this, most likely will be fixed just like it did before.

Ah isn´t it nice when your classrep doesn´t know that zos specifically pointed out that this was intended behavior and in the patchnotes?
sry for being snarky and not looking at dates :P damn necros though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/428092/pts-patch-notes-v4-1-3#latest

General
Enchantments now remember the weapon from which they were fired. This means if you fire a bow ability and weapon swap, when that bow ability deals damage, the enchantment on your bow will fire.
Note: This was introduced in patch 4.1.0, but wanted to include it in these patch notes to clarify the intended change.

code65536 · August 2018

Derra wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

This is not intended for sure. It was the same thing back when people thought Torug's would be BiS. It got fixed but now it is back again. Do not make build that depend on this, most likely will be fixed just like it did before.

Ah isn´t it nice when your classrep doesn´t know that zos specifically pointed out that this was intended behavior and in the patchnotes?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/428092/pts-patch-notes-v4-1-3#latest

General
Enchantments now remember the weapon from which they were fired. This means if you fire a bow ability and weapon swap, when that bow ability deals damage, the enchantment on your bow will fire.
Note: This was introduced in patch 4.1.0, but wanted to include it in these patch notes to clarify the intended change.

To be fair to Liofa, he posted that before ZOS clarified that change. Note the dates in this thread. This is an old thread from early in the PTS (with IIRC a different original thread title) that got necroed.

SilverWF · August 2018

Namarkas wrote: »

For magicka this is especially interesting though, since usually you use WoE backbar with a weapon damage glyph. Since you CANNOT PROC the Berserker
glyph with weapon skills like WoE (only light/hv), we will probably need to go infused backbar with a proc damage glyph, while having berserker front barred.

Overall I think this will be a damage increase for magicka at least but @ZOS_GinaBruno maybe state that somewhere in the natch potes please, so when this thread drowns, people know regardless.

That's why I'm using vMA Inferno staff Infused with Weapon damage glyph on my backbar right now: WoE, LA, then swap.

And finally this would working as intended.

Derra · August 2018

code65536 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

This is not intended for sure. It was the same thing back when people thought Torug's would be BiS. It got fixed but now it is back again. Do not make build that depend on this, most likely will be fixed just like it did before.

Ah isn´t it nice when your classrep doesn´t know that zos specifically pointed out that this was intended behavior and in the patchnotes?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/428092/pts-patch-notes-v4-1-3#latest

General
Enchantments now remember the weapon from which they were fired. This means if you fire a bow ability and weapon swap, when that bow ability deals damage, the enchantment on your bow will fire.
Note: This was introduced in patch 4.1.0, but wanted to include it in these patch notes to clarify the intended change.

To be fair to Liofa, he posted that before ZOS clarified that change. Note the dates in this thread. This is an old thread from early in the PTS (with IIRC a different original thread title) that got necroed.

oh fak me

Namarkas · August 2018

code65536 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

This is not intended for sure. It was the same thing back when people thought Torug's would be BiS. It got fixed but now it is back again. Do not make build that depend on this, most likely will be fixed just like it did before.

Ah isn´t it nice when your classrep doesn´t know that zos specifically pointed out that this was intended behavior and in the patchnotes?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/428092/pts-patch-notes-v4-1-3#latest

General
Enchantments now remember the weapon from which they were fired. This means if you fire a bow ability and weapon swap, when that bow ability deals damage, the enchantment on your bow will fire.
Note: This was introduced in patch 4.1.0, but wanted to include it in these patch notes to clarify the intended change.

To be fair to Liofa, he posted that before ZOS clarified that change. Note the dates in this thread. This is an old thread from early in the PTS (with IIRC a different original thread title) that got necroed.

Just to clarify, thread title never got changed

Namarkas · August 2018

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Did I understand it right, that after this changes we need Infused Bow on backbar? (instead of nirn)?

And in general Infused will be better than nirnhoned for both magicka and stamina? (PVE)

Looked that way to me, simply because this way you basically have the bonus your backbar trait provides 100% active (as basically all dd setups use either hail or WoE on the backbar and try to keep it up). Of course this is not a thorough test parse, I guess there are threads somewhere that contain those.