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Sorc - Frags becoming a Class Spammable, Blast becoming the old CFrags Proc?

  • Avran_Sylt
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    @gepe87

    The spammable doesn't need HP restore, you'd get that from the Blood Magic Passive.

    I'm gonna argue that Shards gives the impression of smaller, and Blast larger. Shards becomes the Instant at base.

    @Amdar_Godkiller @Tannus15

    You say that no class needs a spammable, but then go right around and contradict yourselves...
    "Overload is your Spammable"
    "Use the Psijic One"

    So, are spammables necessary? Does it not make sense for a class to have at least one it it's toolkit?

    The *** point isn't to have it be the only choice of spammable, but to have a spammable unique in function to that class. To fit Thematically, if not applying a unique twist.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on August 1, 2018 10:58AM
  • Amdar_Godkiller
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @gepe87

    The spammable doesn't need HP restore, you'd get that from the Blood Magic Passive.

    I'm gonna argue that Shards gives the impression of smaller, and Blast larger. Shards becomes the Instant at base.

    @Amdar_Godkiller @Tannus15

    You say that no class needs a spammable, but then go right around and contradict yourselves...
    "Overload is your Spammable"
    "Use the Psijic One"

    So, are spammables necessary? Does it not make sense for a class to have at least one it it's toolkit?

    The *** point isn't to have it be the only choice of spammable, but to have a spammable unique in function to that class. To fit Thematically, if not applying a unique twist.

    Spammables aren't a necessary part of any classes unique toolkit anymore than hard ccs (warden), executes (dragonknights), gap closers (warden), or stamina heals (all non-wardens) are because these things exist in other skill lines.

    Sorc has too many good things currently. A better-than-the-generic-destro-spammable option would be ludicrous.
  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    I like it
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @gepe87

    The spammable doesn't need HP restore, you'd get that from the Blood Magic Passive.

    I'm gonna argue that Shards gives the impression of smaller, and Blast larger. Shards becomes the Instant at base.

    @Amdar_Godkiller @Tannus15

    You say that no class needs a spammable, but then go right around and contradict yourselves...
    "Overload is your Spammable"
    "Use the Psijic One"

    So, are spammables necessary? Does it not make sense for a class to have at least one it it's toolkit?

    The *** point isn't to have it be the only choice of spammable, but to have a spammable unique in function to that class. To fit Thematically, if not applying a unique twist.

    I agree with you.
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @gepe87

    The spammable doesn't need HP restore, you'd get that from the Blood Magic Passive.

    I'm gonna argue that Shards gives the impression of smaller, and Blast larger. Shards becomes the Instant at base.

    @Amdar_Godkiller @Tannus15

    You say that no class needs a spammable, but then go right around and contradict yourselves...
    "Overload is your Spammable"
    "Use the Psijic One"

    So, are spammables necessary? Does it not make sense for a class to have at least one it it's toolkit?

    The *** point isn't to have it be the only choice of spammable, but to have a spammable unique in function to that class. To fit Thematically, if not applying a unique twist.

    Spammables aren't a necessary part of any classes unique toolkit anymore than hard ccs (warden), executes (dragonknights), gap closers (warden), or stamina heals (all non-wardens) are because these things exist in other skill lines.

    Sorc has too many good things currently. A better-than-the-generic-destro-spammable option would be ludicrous.

    I doesn't have to be better, just different. a point of difference. a thing which makes the sorc feel unique.
  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
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    The absence of a thing can also make a class feel unique.
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @Amdar_Godkiller

    The thing is Sorcs aren't restricted from using an easily attained spammable...

    Standard Overworld interactions use a spammable just like every other class in the game, like elemental weapon or Force Pulse.

    They simply lack one to call their own, and have to use less while other classes have more. (NB specifically).

    They lack one that fits THEMATICALLY with the rest of their kit, or one that signifies: Hey, I'm a Sorc.

    It quite literally works to make the class feel less unique, because of how much it shares with other classes in that regard.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on August 1, 2018 11:21AM
  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @Amdar_Godkiller

    The thing is Sorcs aren't restricted from using an easily attained spammable...

    Standard Overworld interactions use a spammable just like every other class in the game, like elemental weapon or Force Pulse.

    They simply lack one to call their own, and have to use less while other classes have more. (NB specifically).

    They lack one that fits THEMATICALLY with the rest of their kit, or one that signifies: Hey, I'm a Sorc.

    It quite literally works to make the class feel less unique, because of how much it shares with other classes in that regard.

    Then we should give those other classes a spammable so that in lacking one, Sorcs will feel more unique. They don't need anything more in their toolkit.
  • bardx86
    bardx86
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    SilverWF wrote: »
    Increase damage and make it insta cast and increase projectile speed and add knockback effect

    OMG yes this would be the best solution
    Elured Fury PC_NA
  • bardx86
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    nemvar wrote: »
    Frags is a mere husk of its former self. Revert it or take it out of its misery.

    This.

    Rather than meddling with Cage and back tracking - could have just left it as it was.

    I'm up for a Frag empower via Bound Aegis tho, rather (or in addition to) the block cost reduction no one's using in PVP

    Thats an intersting idea. I still think frags should be as fast a javelin tho.
    Elured Fury PC_NA
  • ezio45
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    Other
    blast as the class spam might be a good idea, leave cfag alone tho
  • Apherius
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    Other
    - Frags

    - Nobody hard cast frag in pve, same thing in PVP ( except overload sorcerer, and this is the only case):
    Crystal frag should work differently if you chose to hardcast it, use the proc later or use it instantly when it proc... reducing the cast time would be a good start. We want it to be an unique ability since it's our main skill !

    A few example below for Crystal Frag :
    • " If you damage an enemy with a frag proc THEN hard cast a frag .. this will grab the enemy "
    • If you hard cast a frag THEN use a frag proc on the same enemy, it will increase Blood magic passive effectiveness ", it mean the passive will heals you for 50/65% of your max health instead of 12% - I really like this idea, you engage the fight by hard-casting a frag ... Then you choose if you want to deal increased damage( = use the proc ) or keep it for later under 30/40% of your max health.
    • "[...] The next crystal fragment will be instant, deal 10% more damage and cost 50% less magicka, if you use 2 others skill before you use the instant crystal ... It will apply off balance to the target.

    Ofc they would need to balance this, a skill that work differently depending on how you use it would be awesome ... You hard-cast they use a frag proc ? Ok you heal yourself, you use a frag proc they hard cast ? Ok you grab the target, you want to increase your frag proc effectiveness ? Ok use 2 others skills then use the proc.
    I mean, as I said it's our main skill, so much potential !


    While spectral bow give minor berserk, crystal frag proc could apply off-balance on the boss, sorc would bring something interesting in trial ( the liquid lightning synergy for alkosh and minor prophecy are not enough ).


    Edited by Apherius on August 1, 2018 2:13PM
  • ruikkarikun
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    I like it
    STOP MAKING THREADS ABOUT SORC NERFC
  • Feanor
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @Amdar_Godkiller

    The thing is Sorcs aren't restricted from using an easily attained spammable...

    Standard Overworld interactions use a spammable just like every other class in the game, like elemental weapon or Force Pulse.

    They simply lack one to call their own, and have to use less while other classes have more. (NB specifically).

    They lack one that fits THEMATICALLY with the rest of their kit, or one that signifies: Hey, I'm a Sorc.

    It quite literally works to make the class feel less unique, because of how much it shares with other classes in that regard.

    Then we should give those other classes a spammable so that in lacking one, Sorcs will feel more unique. They don't need anything more in their toolkit.

    That’s like telling a worker he gets half the wage while working double shifts because that will make him feel special.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    Other
    Sorcs having a class spammable is counter intuitive to the classes intended gameplay. It doesn't need one, at least not one like the other classes. Sorc burst is currently not where it needs to be and what most fail to realize is that the damage on Rune Cage was more beneficial to the class than the actual CC. The biggest issue is that zerglings now use the skill too and it is very strong in a zerg context. 1v1/1vx perspective, the CC is irrelevant, but that extra 8k tooltip damage is what kills most players.

    Giving the burst class a class spammable would severely overpower the class. What the class needs is a way to either increase their burst or deal passive damage. Ideally the second route is the way to go as it maintains a moderate level of TTK, so giving the class a DoT as a "class spammable" is the best way to go. Not a strong one, but maybe one along the strength of Noxious Breath and applies Minor Breach.
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @IAVITNI

    The Range+Unblockable/dodgeable CC+ the Damage of Cage as it is now is the problem. Not solely the damage itself. Since it allows the player to line-up burst like: Curse+Wrath+Elementalweapon+Cage+Frags land in a a single GCD with absolute assurance that they will all hit if the target is not using immobility pots and off CC immunity. Regardless of what the opponent does, since the CC goes through block, and roll-dodge, at the same time.

    The spammable is intended to be used in PvE scenarios and balanced according to similar PvE spammables that it uses, like the *** spammable Sorc already uses via Elemental Weapon or Force Pulse.

    Sorc has spammables, but not one to call their own. <--- The *** point.
  • Apherius
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    Other
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Sorcs having a class spammable is counter intuitive to the classes intended gameplay. It doesn't need one, at least not one like the other classes. Sorc burst is currently not where it needs to be and what most fail to realize is that the damage on Rune Cage was more beneficial to the class than the actual CC. The biggest issue is that zerglings now use the skill too and it is very strong in a zerg context. 1v1/1vx perspective, the CC is irrelevant, but that extra 8k tooltip damage is what kills most players.

    Giving the burst class a class spammable would severely overpower the class. What the class needs is a way to either increase their burst or deal passive damage. Ideally the second route is the way to go as it maintains a moderate level of TTK, so giving the class a DoT as a "class spammable" is the best way to go. Not a strong one, but maybe one along the strength of Noxious Breath and applies Minor Breach.

    This extra 8K damage tooltip will be nerfed to 8K damage tooltip if the CC end naturally ( it mean you take 0 damage if you break free within 5 sec, if you don't it's a L2P issue ).

    I don't know about a sorc spammable, I feel it would make the class boring, "liquid..wall ...fragfragfragfragfrag..." + they never rework a skill 2 times, it mean we will be stuck with a boring skill.

    I would prefer them to make the skill polyvalent = it would work differently depending on how you use it, if you hard cast a frag then use a frag proc, if you use a frag proc then hard cast a frag ... If you use other skills before using the frag proc ... if you don't use the frag proc ... see the comment #41

    What you mean by " a dot as a class spammable " ? something like liquid lightning ? Maybe they could rework encase and make it a dot or something cool

    Encase: Call daedric shard from the earth under one enemy, they follow the target and deal X damage ( less than liquid ofc ) over 8/12 seconds.

    Restraining Prison: You can apply this dot to 2 target at the same times, if you use your instant crystal ( crystal proc) it will create 2 crystal ( one in each hand ) and bombard both enemy at the same times. ( pfiou, took me 15 minute to write that, very hard to explain )
    Edited by Apherius on August 1, 2018 7:49PM
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @Apherius

    Heh, so kinda like the Invoker from Dota2?

    That'd be fun.
  • Apherius
    Apherius
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    Other
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @Apherius

    Heh, so kinda like the Invoker from Dota2?

    That'd be fun.

    Never played dota2 :P I will take a look to that
    Edited by Apherius on August 1, 2018 7:49PM
  • SirDopey
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    Tannus15 wrote: »
    that would at least provide reasons to use one over the other.
    There is one issue however :

    Blood Magic - IWhen you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds.

    this passive basically means you can't have a spammable in the dark magic line. You just get too much healing for free. It's 1700 health every cast for most dps. Between this and surge sorcs would have an insane amount of self heals while putting out a lot of damage.

    Honestly I'd prefer to get a lightning damage based spammable.

    change endless fury to do significantly more damage on the initial hit, remove the execute and slightly reduce the cost. I'd probably add something else to differentiate it from other spammables. minor breach? extra damage on crit? keep the explosion damage to nearby enemies? doesn't really matter.

    Leave mages wrath alone so that sorcs can choose between the spammable or the execute.

    Wait, don't Warden's have this with cutting dive (healing from spamable)
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    I like it
    SirDopey wrote: »
    Tannus15 wrote: »
    that would at least provide reasons to use one over the other.
    There is one issue however :

    Blood Magic - IWhen you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds.

    this passive basically means you can't have a spammable in the dark magic line. You just get too much healing for free. It's 1700 health every cast for most dps. Between this and surge sorcs would have an insane amount of self heals while putting out a lot of damage.

    Honestly I'd prefer to get a lightning damage based spammable.

    change endless fury to do significantly more damage on the initial hit, remove the execute and slightly reduce the cost. I'd probably add something else to differentiate it from other spammables. minor breach? extra damage on crit? keep the explosion damage to nearby enemies? doesn't really matter.

    Leave mages wrath alone so that sorcs can choose between the spammable or the execute.

    Wait, don't Warden's have this with cutting dive (healing from spamable)

    Dive doesn't heal a Warden at all. Night Blades have it from funnel health.

    I'm just pointing out that when you have a class with the strongest shields and strong self heals with surge adding a passive 10% max health heal to a spammable might be a bit too much.

    As an amusing aside Warden's arctic wind heal is only 2% stronger than a sorc just casting crystal frag.
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @Tannus15 @SirDopey

    I think he's talking about Bond with Nature.

    I don't know if the Cliff Racer despawning technically counts or not...
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @Tannus15 @SirDopey

    Hah, yes it totally works with Cliff Racer.

    Each time the spammable animation finishes you heal for the Bond with Nature amount.

    So technically Sorc is one squishy mother-effer since it doesn't have a spammable that heals them outside of using CritSurge
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on August 2, 2018 12:01AM
  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    I like it

    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @Tannus15 @SirDopey

    Hah, yes it totally works with Cliff Racer.

    Each time the spammable animation finishes you heal for the Bond with Nature amount.

    So technically Sorc is one squishy mother-effer since it doesn't have a spammable that heals them outside of using CritSurge

    I dunno, sorc shields are pretty ok and surge procs off dots unlike pretty much every other passive healing in the game.
  • Minalan
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    I like it
    We don’t really need a spammable. You need to slot a Destro skill regardless - so it might as well be force pulse.

    What we need is a proc on the base crystal shards so that we can actually use blast (cc) or frags (damage).
  • Avran_Sylt
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    @Minalan @Tannus15

    Sorcs don't need it, no.

    I think it'd be a good addition though. Especially when diversifying the skill morphs in the process.
  • Micah_Bayer
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    I like it
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    So, apparently Crystal Shards and it's morphs aren't really used by sorcs in rotations. News to me as I don't play that class. Turns out that it also doesn't have a class instant spammable. Like. Every. Other. Class. And usually uses the Destro Staff Spammable.

    Not sure if this will appease anyone, but this is my suggestion (unfortunately only benefiting MagSorc ATM):

    Take that % proc from the Current Frags. Discard it.

    Crystal Shards Slap this effect onto the base skill:
    -With this ability slotted, any excess magicka used casting abilities (includes itself) is siphoned away, and after casting 3 Magicka abilities, your next Crystal Shards cast will be empowered.
    -While Empowered, this ability becomes Instant-Cast. (Inherited by all morphs)

    Change CFrags to become Instant Cast, with reduced damage on the standard cast (in-line with other spammables) but with greater Empowered Damage (current CFrags damage)
    -By flinging smaller crystals you deal less damage, but can cast much faster. Your Empowered cast also deals more damage.
    (Likely needing a new crystal model and/or faster projectile speed)

    Remove the base stun from CBlast, keep the AoE.
    -You form more crystals while casting, and agitate them, causing them to move slower, but also to explode upon impact, dealing damage to nearby foes. The Empowered Cast Stuns the Target.
    (It keeps the current projectile speed, but has an instant cast animation).

    Majority does not like the idea. I dont like the idea
  • IAVITNI
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    Apherius wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Sorcs having a class spammable is counter intuitive to the classes intended gameplay. It doesn't need one, at least not one like the other classes. Sorc burst is currently not where it needs to be and what most fail to realize is that the damage on Rune Cage was more beneficial to the class than the actual CC. The biggest issue is that zerglings now use the skill too and it is very strong in a zerg context. 1v1/1vx perspective, the CC is irrelevant, but that extra 8k tooltip damage is what kills most players.

    Giving the burst class a class spammable would severely overpower the class. What the class needs is a way to either increase their burst or deal passive damage. Ideally the second route is the way to go as it maintains a moderate level of TTK, so giving the class a DoT as a "class spammable" is the best way to go. Not a strong one, but maybe one along the strength of Noxious Breath and applies Minor Breach.

    This extra 8K damage tooltip will be nerfed to 8K damage tooltip if the CC end naturally ( it mean you take 0 damage if you break free within 5 sec, if you don't it's a L2P issue ).

    I don't know about a sorc spammable, I feel it would make the class boring, "liquid..wall ...fragfragfragfragfrag..." + they never rework a skill 2 times, it mean we will be stuck with a boring skill.

    I would prefer them to make the skill polyvalent = it would work differently depending on how you use it, if you hard cast a frag then use a frag proc, if you use a frag proc then hard cast a frag ... If you use other skills before using the frag proc ... if you don't use the frag proc ... see the comment #41

    What you mean by " a dot as a class spammable " ? something like liquid lightning ? Maybe they could rework encase and make it a dot or something cool

    Encase: Call daedric shard from the earth under one enemy, they follow the target and deal X damage ( less than liquid ofc ) over 8/12 seconds.

    Restraining Prison: You can apply this dot to 2 target at the same times, if you use your instant crystal ( crystal proc) it will create 2 crystal ( one in each hand ) and bombard both enemy at the same times. ( pfiou, took me 15 minute to write that, very hard to explain )

    Not liquid lightning but more like venomous claw (sDK) but obviously less damage.

    What you're suggesting is too complex for ESO. No other skill works like that. At most you could make C-Frag behave differently based on the weapon equipped (Melee/Destro/Resto) Melee would stun, destro would deal more damage, resto would provide a larger heal etc.

    Encase is meant to be a defensive skill. Shouldn't become offensive. That role is already taken by Mines. Daedric Tomb should be changed to drop mines periodically to emulate Eternal Hunt. That alone would actually be equivalent to a class spammable. The damage is very significant. The problem with Minefields is it is too situational and very strong in a 1v1 setting (so it can't be buffed). It also does not fit into the sorc "mobile" defence.
  • Apherius
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    Other
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Apherius wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Sorcs having a class spammable is counter intuitive to the classes intended gameplay. It doesn't need one, at least not one like the other classes. Sorc burst is currently not where it needs to be and what most fail to realize is that the damage on Rune Cage was more beneficial to the class than the actual CC. The biggest issue is that zerglings now use the skill too and it is very strong in a zerg context. 1v1/1vx perspective, the CC is irrelevant, but that extra 8k tooltip damage is what kills most players.

    Giving the burst class a class spammable would severely overpower the class. What the class needs is a way to either increase their burst or deal passive damage. Ideally the second route is the way to go as it maintains a moderate level of TTK, so giving the class a DoT as a "class spammable" is the best way to go. Not a strong one, but maybe one along the strength of Noxious Breath and applies Minor Breach.

    This extra 8K damage tooltip will be nerfed to 8K damage tooltip if the CC end naturally ( it mean you take 0 damage if you break free within 5 sec, if you don't it's a L2P issue ).

    I don't know about a sorc spammable, I feel it would make the class boring, "liquid..wall ...fragfragfragfragfrag..." + they never rework a skill 2 times, it mean we will be stuck with a boring skill.

    I would prefer them to make the skill polyvalent = it would work differently depending on how you use it, if you hard cast a frag then use a frag proc, if you use a frag proc then hard cast a frag ... If you use other skills before using the frag proc ... if you don't use the frag proc ... see the comment #41

    What you mean by " a dot as a class spammable " ? something like liquid lightning ? Maybe they could rework encase and make it a dot or something cool

    Encase: Call daedric shard from the earth under one enemy, they follow the target and deal X damage ( less than liquid ofc ) over 8/12 seconds.

    Restraining Prison: You can apply this dot to 2 target at the same times, if you use your instant crystal ( crystal proc) it will create 2 crystal ( one in each hand ) and bombard both enemy at the same times. ( pfiou, took me 15 minute to write that, very hard to explain )

    Not liquid lightning but more like venomous claw (sDK) but obviously less damage.

    What you're suggesting is too complex for ESO. No other skill works like that. At most you could make C-Frag behave differently based on the weapon equipped (Melee/Destro/Resto) Melee would stun, destro would deal more damage, resto would provide a larger heal etc.

    Encase is meant to be a defensive skill. Shouldn't become offensive. That role is already taken by Mines. Daedric Tomb should be changed to drop mines periodically to emulate Eternal Hunt. That alone would actually be equivalent to a class spammable. The damage is very significant. The problem with Minefields is it is too situational and very strong in a 1v1 setting (so it can't be buffed). It also does not fit into the sorc "mobile" defence.

    yeah i believe this would be too complex. But sorc being too easy to take in hand is one of the reason people think it should not be " that strong ". Making it more complex would reward skillful gameplay.

    I like the melee/destro/resto idea, maybe it could also be based on the range ? If you cast it melee it deal the current ammount of damage and deals up to X% more damage agaisnt enemies at longer range. ( or the contrary, increase the frag damage if you are melee and keep the current damage if you are at 41 meters.

    Edited by Apherius on August 3, 2018 8:02PM
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    Apherius wrote: »

    yeah i believe this would be too complex. But sorc being too easy to take in hand is one of the reason people think it should not be " that strong ". Making it more complex would reward skillful gameplay.

    I like the melee/destro/resto idea, maybe it could also be based on the range ? If you cast it melee it deal the current ammount of damage and deals up to X% more damage agaisnt enemies at longer range. ( or the contrary, increase the frag damage if you are melee and keep the current damage if you are at 41 meters.

    Lol. Again, I love the creativity, but that's simply to many mechanics for ESO. Ultimately ESO is meant to be a casual game, so you gotta tone down the complexity a little.

    Sorc really isn't as easy as people make it out to be. The people who think sorc is an easy class in PvP (PvE is a different story) simply play at a lower skill level.The ease of learning Sorc offensive rotations is that they are really easy to read. Unless a sorc camps Mines and runs pets, they will only get a kill if the opponent gets lazy. If I face a magsorc 1v1, with the exception of Cage, I won't die.

    Only reason I die to Cage is because all my stam classes run medium. Even then, I'm not going to be 100-0'd by a meteor combo in CP, even in double offensive medium sets.
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