COOL Idea #9 = Mathematical Balancing of Skills!

generalmyrick · July 2018

So, here’s an idea I think would be great!
I start with the premises;
• Most people use the skills that are most effective.
• Balance is the goal.
Every 3 months, patch/dlc/chapter updates, all skills are basically looked at and the following rule is applied.
Let’s say the skill radiant oppression is used by 60% of all templars. This would result in a damage nerf of 10%.
Basically, for every % point over 50 that it is used by classes who can use it a nerf is applied.
In the long term it would lead to a lot more build diversity I think because ignored skills would automatically receive buffs and abused would receive the appropriate nerfs.

Whatcha think?

PlagueSD · July 2018

I do not like it.

Having a flat "rule" like this for skill balancing will kill this game.

EVERYONE in PvP uses rapids...You want that "nerfed"?
EVERYONE in PvP uses caltrops...You want that "nerfed"?
EVERYONE in PvP uses Rally...You want that "nerfed"?

If a skill is used by EVERYONE, it should remain as is. It's currently "balanced" because EVERYONE has access to it.

nemvar · July 2018

I do not like it.

I presume your system would somehow differentiate between the stamina and magicka versions of the classes. Even then nerfing things just because they are often used is a stupid idea.

EDIT:
Short list of class skills that will be nerfed:
Every Major Ward/Major Resolve skill except maybe Immovable (notice how this doesn't account for the NB passive)
Cloak
Streak
Igneous Shield
PotL
Surprise Attack
Hardened Ward
Curse

generalmyrick · July 2018

PlagueSD wrote: »

Having a flat "rule" like this for skill balancing will kill this game.

EVERYONE in PvP uses rapids...You want that "nerfed"?
EVERYONE in PvP uses caltrops...You want that "nerfed"?
EVERYONE in PvP uses Rally...You want that "nerfed"?

If a skill is used by EVERYONE, it should remain as is. It's currently "balanced" because EVERYONE has access to it.

common sense can be used to diff between skills like rapids and x skill.

nemvar wrote: »

I presume your system would somehow differentiate between the stamina and magicka versions of the classes. Even then nerfing things just because they are often used is a stupid idea.

if the goal was balance? what about buffing? are we focused in the wrong side of this? you wouldn't want to see a cool skill you love get a buff because its underpowered?

Vietfox · July 2018

I do not like it.

Lets all use the [removed profanity] skills so they get even more nerfed

Solariken · July 2018

I like it.

Lol this is devious but I kinda like it. Only thing is we need more skills, too many are required because there aren't enough other options.

SlippyCheeze · July 2018

Other.

If it were really this simple, it would already be done this way. The implicit assumption here is that the developers of MMOs -- not just this one, but literally all MMOs -- have never considered this, or tried it.

I can only speculate, but I'd guess that the problem comes not from individual skills, but their use in combination with other things.

So, if you find 60 percent of templars use "radiant oppression", but it is only good because <other thing> combos well with it ... that nightblades use, how does your model work?

Take that, and the very broad range of ability between the average player, and the top end players, and you end up in a situation where it is unreasonably complex to model. (Though recent developments in "deep learning" may provide a path to handling the extremely large state space and producing effective results.)

I'd also note that the "meta" is generally a "people" problem, as I have seen people in WoW argue that a spec is non-viable when it parses 0.8 percent lower than a slightly different one, across tens of thousands of runs, for both average and top-end players.

That is ... well, shall we say that a 0.8 percent DPS difference across a fight is lower than the difference that delaying one or two button presses, or one error in rotation, makes. Can't technology people out of that sort of thinking.

LordSemaj · July 2018

So basically Nightblades would self-nerf themselves over time just by playing.

Apherius · July 2018

I do not like it.

This mean they should nerf curse because nobody use the other morphs ? Simply because pet build is underperforming in pve ?

nemvar · July 2018

I do not like it.

They already did a similiar thing with crystal frags and it was dumb.

technohic · July 2018

I do not like it.

Here I though Maybe we’d put a numeric value on damage, buffs, debuff, CC, etc and make it to where you try to get regular abilities to a specific number then ultimates another.

This idea however is far worse. Do it by math and then say use common sense? Why use math to begin with if common sense was so common

CavalryPK · July 2018

I like it.

I like the idea. but I think your example is tooooo simple. but I understand what you are trying to convey. The problem is following a flat rule like that In my personal opinion could potentially kill a certain aspect of a gameplay. A change could result in groups not being able to clear a hard boss or would completely kill a pvp aspect of a certain class.

Although if your example is refined to accommodate certain restrictions .... than maybe it would be a good balancing technique.

BigBragg · July 2018

I do not like it.

A skills popularity doesn't necessarily mean that it is out of balance with gameplay.

Valen_Byte · July 2018

I think _________ would be better. (Fill in the blank.)

I think skill balance really got wonky when they changed it from scaling off wep/sp damage to scaling off max resource pool. It should be changed back. I think that would be a good start.

Valen_Byte · July 2018

I think _________ would be better. (Fill in the blank.)

PlagueSD wrote: »

Having a flat "rule" like this for skill balancing will kill this game.

EVERYONE in PvP uses rapids...You want that "nerfed"?
EVERYONE in PvP uses caltrops...You want that "nerfed"?
EVERYONE in PvP uses Rally...You want that "nerfed"?

If a skill is used by EVERYONE, it should remain as is. It's currently "balanced" because EVERYONE has access to it.

Those are skills that every Stam based build uses, and yes, they should all be nerfed. Even rapids, make it so you can only use it while mounted. Caltrops should not do as much damage as they do, and Rally alone can out heal most magic based builds. Ther is a reason all of the top players are stam based, its because stam builds are way out of the realm of "balance" 1v1 stam builds can out heal AND out damage magic builds, even sorcs.

josiahva · July 2018

I do not like it.

Nerfs are almost never the answer. When will people learn this?

ZOS_Ragnar · July 2018

We have removed some posts from this thread that were overly hostile and baiting. While we do not expect everyone to agree with the ideas and suggestions they encounter on the forum we do expect you to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Just because someone has a different point of view than your own is not a reason to insult them and disrupt a thread. If you do not have any constructive feedback to offer on a subject, feel free to move on to a thread that better suits your interests.

generalmyrick · July 2018

common sense can be used to diff between skills like rapids and x skill.

G1Countdown · July 2018

I do not like it.

I thought I read about WOW doing a mathematical balancing just recently and they boinked their servers badly with bugs galore. Matter of fact, I think I recall it undoing bug fixes so it reintroduced old bugs too. I wouldn't want to have something like that happen in ESO.

zaria · July 2018

I do not like it.

Valen_Byte wrote: »

PlagueSD wrote: »

Having a flat "rule" like this for skill balancing will kill this game.

EVERYONE in PvP uses rapids...You want that "nerfed"?
EVERYONE in PvP uses caltrops...You want that "nerfed"?
EVERYONE in PvP uses Rally...You want that "nerfed"?

If a skill is used by EVERYONE, it should remain as is. It's currently "balanced" because EVERYONE has access to it.

Those are skills that every Stam based build uses, and yes, they should all be nerfed. Even rapids, make it so you can only use it while mounted. Caltrops should not do as much damage as they do, and Rally alone can out heal most magic based builds. Ther is a reason all of the top players are stam based, its because stam builds are way out of the realm of "balance" 1v1 stam builds can out heal AND out damage magic builds, even sorcs.

Stamina has an smaller toolchest since most class skills are magic so weapon skills are far more important making all stamina classes so similar.
Note also that some skills are designed for roles, pvp, DD, healer or tank.
You also ignores that pve is larger than pvp, counting skills will also count all the causal so snipe get nerfed

DedEmbryonicCell19 · July 2018

Other.

At this point they my as well make every ability and skill in the game do exactly the same thing ..

Tucker3711 · July 2018

I do not like it.

TOO MUCH MATH! Math is BAD!!!

Shadow-Fighter · July 2018

Please stop with nerfs !!!

Avran_Sylt · July 2018

I do not like it.

That doesn't consider that some skills will/won't be used because of their looks.

Or because it's the only skill of that type available (IE cloak).

It also assumes that everyone chooses skills for the exact same reason.

It doesn't consider that PvP and PvE populations variances could skew the data.

There's a lot that it doesn't consider, and it makes a lot of assumptions.

generalmyrick · July 2018

Shadow-Fighter wrote: »

Please stop with nerfs !!!

balancing means nerfs and buffs! :-)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

That doesn't consider that some skills will/won't be used because of their looks.

Or because it's the only skill of that type available (IE cloak).

It also assumes that everyone chooses skills for the exact same reason.

It doesn't consider that PvP and PvE populations variances could skew the data.

There's a lot that it doesn't consider, and it makes a lot of assumptions.

its a poll on a forum! lets make it work! :-)

Danksta · July 2018

What constitutes a skill being 'used' by a specific player? If I use it one just to test it out because that skill may have been changed since the last patch?

Shadow-Fighter · July 2018

Big failure was removing soft caps

After that, the game can't be balanced.
The gap between average and top level players is far too big

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · July 2018

I do not like it.

I'm pretty sure ZOS has some internal undisclosed means to flash out skills that are to OP. that being said having mandatory blanket requirements to buff and debuff in certain percentages to me seems like a really lazy way to do business. The game would need to be far more cookie cutter for that to work out well imo.

generalmyrick · July 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure ZOS has some internal undisclosed means to flash out skills that are to OP. that being said having mandatory blanket requirements to buff and debuff in certain percentages to me seems like a really lazy way to do business. The game would need to be far more cookie cutter for that to work out well imo.

true. sometimes lazy is more efficient!

Gnortranermara · July 2018

I do not like it.

Terrible idea. Skill "balance" is not a matter of public opinion and trends, but an objective measurement of damage-to-cost ratio and other factors like buffs and special effects attached to the skills. Skills do need to be adjusted for balance, but not based on popularity.

WaltherCarraway · July 2018

I do not like it.

No whey

The Elder Scrolls Online

COOL Idea #9 = Mathematical Balancing of Skills!

COOL Idea #9 = Mathematical Balancing of Skills! 128 votes