@aeowulf I used to tank as a templar. But my knowledge of tanking has grown so much since then that I can't honestly make a fair comparison. But I don't enjoy doing alts, so no. But that being said...

1. I have acknowledged on this thread that I think DK's do in fact have an advantage in tanking. I'm not at any point trying to deny this. They are the best tanks in the game. I think as soon as engulfing flames is fixed then Wardens will become the meta. But I think its because of "extras" that they bring, not because their pure tanking is better.

2. I think it is fair that a particular class has some advantage in a given role as I have argued in previous posts in this thread. This is part of opportunity cost when you choose classes and I think its healthy.

3. I have been 100% in support of making necessary tools to the other classes. I believe every class should have access to a reliable chain method for example, and if silver leash is significantly deficient in this, it should be fixed. That is a necessity for good tanking in a lot of content.

4. I have said that classes should be able to pin mobs down. And I've said if there are no tools available to a specific class then that needs to be remedied. It's not fair to paint me a bad guy for not knowing first hand every tool available to every class and having first hand experience of trying it. I'm FOR the other classes having the tools necessary to tank. The problem is regarding unnecessary tanking perks. Those unnecessary perks are sufficient to spur a demand in meta minded guilds, and nothing will ever change this.

5. I know that sustain is capable on other classes because I know how my play has changed as my skills have developed. I am so comfortable in stamina sustain now, that I typical run looted magicka potions. I run 565 magicka regeneration so my sustain certainly isn't from spamming igneous shields because my magicka can't handle spamming that, and the only ultimate I ever use is warhorn, so its not like I can spam that too frequently when I run ebon + Alkosh and I don't use blood spawn. So my sustain isn't from constantly proc'ing battle roar. In fact in all honesty I'm pretty lazy about using ultimates period. So I don't lean on any DK perks for sustain and I don't use stamina potions. Are you telling me I couldn't sustain on another class using a tri-stat potion? The sustain that a Dragon Knight has is fantastic training wheels to let the player learn. But at a certain point its truly not needed.

Now, let me ask you a question. And I ask it sincerely. As I sit here on my DK and listen to people at the same time scream that any and every advantage we have must be removed and or given to other classes, then at the exact same time boast how on their mistreated NB they can and have accomplished every single achievement and completed every single veteran trial tanking, is that suppose to sound fine to me? My class is inferior in every aspect of the game beside tanking. Yet I chose it because I only care about tanking. Should that sound right to me when people who can accomplish EVERYTHING demand nerfs because they aren't "viable"? What can I conclude other than that the primary driver is that they are salty, not over the actual performance, but rather where their favored class is perceived in terms of meta?

BejaProphet wrote: »

@aeowulf I used to tank as a templar. But my knowledge of tanking has grown so much since then that I can't honestly make a fair comparison. But I don't enjoy doing alts, so no. But that being said...

Now, let me ask you a question. And I ask it sincerely. As I sit here on my DK and listen to people at the same time scream that any and every advantage we have must be removed and or given to other classes, then at the exact same time boast how on their mistreated NB they can and have accomplished every single achievement and completed every single veteran trial tanking, is that suppose to sound fine to me? My class is inferior in every aspect of the game beside tanking. Yet I chose it because I only care about tanking. Should that sound right to me when people who can accomplish EVERYTHING demand nerfs because they aren't "viable"? What can I conclude other than that the primary driver is that they are salty, not over the actual performance, but rather where their favored class is perceived in terms of meta?

No, that is also wrong and you should be shouting about that, in those threads dedicated to those roles you feel your class is underperforming in.

Every class should be desired in every role. For that they need to be viable. I have even shouted about DK healers needing help in the past. Every class that is not commonly seen in vet finder in a particular role, needs looking at, and fixing. Otherwise why even bother having healer role option as a dk etc?

Any and every advantage DK has is also fine where it is, as long as other classes also have different advantages over DK in that role. You can't have all advantages piled onto one class (for any role) and expect the other classes to be happy about it. Everything needs balancing. NB sustain was their advantage in tanking pre Morrowind, and it was removed. It decimated that role for that class. Templars were also poorly hit here.

There is one common thing between the non-played classes in tank role, and thats no tank friendly sustain. Perma-block is like training wheels. If you don't have it, it's going to hurt when you fall. Without those training wheels people will choose classes with them, and they will probably stick with them. It's another advantage some classes have.

Maybe you should dust off your templar and try some vet DLC. You will then have a better perspective of the non-meta tanks point of view.

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.

aeowulf wrote: »

There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.

This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.

DKs dont need a nerf. They are good how they are atm.
Other classes just need a buff.
The difference isnt just engulfing flames though. If we look at the NB since its my main. We dont have a good stam sustain, we dont have have a class shield to surpress dots, we dont have a class AoE root (not stun), we dont have a class chain, we dont have synergies, we dont have any group utility (even less with the CP nerf to the Tactician passive) and the list goes on.
Again tell Wrobel to buff other classes and not nerf existing classes.

To your point that there should be a class thats better than other classes. Sure. But NBs are currently the best DPS because they are the hardest to pull off. So go ahead make DKs harder to play if you still want to be the best. That would be fair.



Edit:

All classes can do all content.

This comment popped up several times in your feedback. And it rather confuses me to be honest.
If your definiton of balance is "it can do content" why are you so afraid of a DK nerf? Im sure it will still be able to do all content

I don't think that's a good idea. Homogenizing the classes makes classes... Irrelevant. Why play a DK when a nb has the same tools as a DK tank? Why play sorc if a DK can streak as well? We don't need class chains or class root, what we need is identity, and to make sure that identity is viable in endgame. If our identity is self heals, Templar / wardens will out heal us. If our resource management is the top dog (which it was back before morrowind) sorcerers and dks do it better. The question that needs to be asked if what does a non dk tank bring to the table?

Maybe Templar tanks are less mobile but their mitigation is much better than the rest?

Maybe sorc tanks bring lots of crowd control but are not as effective at single target tanking?

Maybe nb tanks should be able to do dodge tanking while managing resources, but are bad at crowd control?

Identity is important, and when you do have it, the fights in pve has to accommodate all these factors. Like maybe for a fight, a DK might suit to be an off tank while a nb is needed to dodge the attacks?

But all I see now is that in trials or even in dungeon HM, dks give the best bang for buck, while the warden is a close second. Even if its a 1% difference, there isn't any other group setup that people would be willing to experiment with.

Its really not about homogenizing, these things are a necessity. A tank needs roots, chains, group buffs. Thats also the reason why we got silver leash as a chain because tanks need those things (eventhough Silver Leash is terrible). If one class doesnt have those things everybody will play other classes. Thats also why people prefer DKs and Wardens they both have the tools.

Also NB Tanks are not really ideal for single target bosses. Like I said we have terrible sustain, Major Evasion isnt reliable like shields, we get melted by unpurgable DoTs and AoEs because you cant dodge these things and we also have no group buffs.
Major Evasion is also only 15% meaning you should dodge every 6,5 hits in theory. Thats terrible for slow but heavy hitting single target fights.

It really isnt about homogenizing, its about making other classes viable which they are not at the moment.

I have a DK Tank, and please if you want to know why we want these things, please just make yourself an Off-Meta tank and play it yourself and see all the problems other classes have. It really isnt fair and we keep getting nerfs e.g. the Tactician Passive not working with Evasion anymore.

Actually I do, I have a nb tank, sorc tank and a warden tank with the Templar on standby in case there are any positive changes to their kit.

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you meant class chains. If you mean nbs should get something akin to dk or warden, then I disagree. Again, while i agree that it is a useful tanking tool, in essence, even if it is a different animation or skill, it will still homogenize the classes.

Its essential because the fights makes it so. What happened to bringing all the melee mobs to the range ones? To range taunt Los? To

Again it's about group setup. Now I'm not talking about tip top, high end, leader boards numbers. But for the majority, the fights can be done with 30-40k dps. Which can allow perhaps a Stam dk or mag dk dps to slot chains for the group? Is it a dps loss? Sure it is. But it's for the benefit of the group. You do have at least 8 other dps to make up for that drop in dps.

It also sucks that ZoS has decided to lump pvp and pve skills and gear all in one. This makes strong cc, like perhaps a 5s aoe snare abit too powerful in pvp. Or defile to be a niche effect in pve while in pvp its so strong. It's things like this that makes it hard to balance not for equality, but for all the roles available.

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.

aeowulf wrote: »

There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.

This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.

DKs dont need a nerf. They are good how they are atm.
Other classes just need a buff.
The difference isnt just engulfing flames though. If we look at the NB since its my main. We dont have a good stam sustain, we dont have have a class shield to surpress dots, we dont have a class AoE root (not stun), we dont have a class chain, we dont have synergies, we dont have any group utility (even less with the CP nerf to the Tactician passive) and the list goes on.
Again tell Wrobel to buff other classes and not nerf existing classes.

To your point that there should be a class thats better than other classes. Sure. But NBs are currently the best DPS because they are the hardest to pull off. So go ahead make DKs harder to play if you still want to be the best. That would be fair.



Edit:

All classes can do all content.

This comment popped up several times in your feedback. And it rather confuses me to be honest.
If your definiton of balance is "it can do content" why are you so afraid of a DK nerf? Im sure it will still be able to do all content

I don't think that's a good idea. Homogenizing the classes makes classes... Irrelevant. Why play a DK when a nb has the same tools as a DK tank? Why play sorc if a DK can streak as well? We don't need class chains or class root, what we need is identity, and to make sure that identity is viable in endgame. If our identity is self heals, Templar / wardens will out heal us. If our resource management is the top dog (which it was back before morrowind) sorcerers and dks do it better. The question that needs to be asked if what does a non dk tank bring to the table?

Maybe Templar tanks are less mobile but their mitigation is much better than the rest?

Maybe sorc tanks bring lots of crowd control but are not as effective at single target tanking?

Maybe nb tanks should be able to do dodge tanking while managing resources, but are bad at crowd control?

Identity is important, and when you do have it, the fights in pve has to accommodate all these factors. Like maybe for a fight, a DK might suit to be an off tank while a nb is needed to dodge the attacks?

But all I see now is that in trials or even in dungeon HM, dks give the best bang for buck, while the warden is a close second. Even if its a 1% difference, there isn't any other group setup that people would be willing to experiment with.

Its really not about homogenizing, these things are a necessity. A tank needs roots, chains, group buffs. Thats also the reason why we got silver leash as a chain because tanks need those things (eventhough Silver Leash is terrible). If one class doesnt have those things everybody will play other classes. Thats also why people prefer DKs and Wardens they both have the tools.

Also NB Tanks are not really ideal for single target bosses. Like I said we have terrible sustain, Major Evasion isnt reliable like shields, we get melted by unpurgable DoTs and AoEs because you cant dodge these things and we also have no group buffs.
Major Evasion is also only 15% meaning you should dodge every 6,5 hits in theory. Thats terrible for slow but heavy hitting single target fights.

It really isnt about homogenizing, its about making other classes viable which they are not at the moment.

I have a DK Tank, and please if you want to know why we want these things, please just make yourself an Off-Meta tank and play it yourself and see all the problems other classes have. It really isnt fair and we keep getting nerfs e.g. the Tactician Passive not working with Evasion anymore.

Actually I do, I have a nb tank, sorc tank and a warden tank with the Templar on standby in case there are any positive changes to their kit.

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you meant class chains. If you mean nbs should get something akin to dk or warden, then I disagree. Again, while i agree that it is a useful tanking tool, in essence, even if it is a different animation, it will still homogenize the classes.

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you meant class chains. If you mean nbs should get something akin to dk or warden, then I disagree. Again, while i agree that it is a useful tanking tool, in essence, even if it is a different animation or skill, it will still homogenize the classes.

No, I was counting the issues between non DK and DK Tanks, because people were saying there is no gap or only a 1% gap. Which isnt true imo.
The changes I want to see for NB Tanks are listed in a comment above and I honestly think that these changes wouldnt make NB Tanks OP or outshine the DK, but it would still help us a lot. (At least in my opinion after tanking all the harder stuff.)

Its essential because the fights makes it so. What happened to bringing all the melee mobs to the range ones? To range taunt Los? To

That would be very situational. You cant just walk to the ads in vMoL Twins. And you also drop dedicated chainers in a score run for more DPS and the Tanks have to chain themselves. This can be done with Silver Leash but it drains your Stamina a lot. Even more if you try to chain an ad on CC cooldown or accidentaly the boss and that happens all the time because of the huge hitboxes. However most of the trials dont really need chaining anyway, dungeons however are different. In dungeons you NEED chains and roots.

Imo reducing the cost for silver leash and the damage or making it cost more stam but giving stam back on "failure" could be options to improve that skill.

Need chains? Which fight? Falk hold? I don't see any other fights that really require a pull. A range taunt probably, not chains.

You can spam shields on yourself while taunting and silver leash pull. You won't take damage and you still have stamina to block.

Range taunt, Swarm mother, shield discipline, deep thoughts. Swap monster sets when pulling the boss.

There's not much need for Warhorn in dungeons. Upping a low dps wont magically increase that dps to 40k. Just like ebon, it's efficiency is hugely reduced in four man's. It helps, but not much imo.

Honestly NB tanks were just fine and dandy before the siphoning change. Lots of fun, that's the important thing right?

My suggestion: return Siphoning Attacks to pre-Morrowind.

literally just that one is fine.

RavenSworn wrote: »

For Liofa, how about if leeching strikes were to proc on direct melee damage taken?

Hello. This was already mentioned in the Dev Meeting that Templars and Nightblades are lacking stamina sustain as tanks. We already reported that this is an issue and it is up to ZOS now. Will they make a change or not, we don't know. For now, there is something you can do to increase your sustain. You can find it here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/426435/wolfhunter-pve-tanking-discussion#latest It depends on the new enchantment system change. Definitely will help low Stamina sustain classes even though it seems like a small change.

I would also like to say that we should try getting back on topic with the "2 pain points."
Its starting to get Off-Topic imo.

RavenSworn wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Liofa Here is my biggest concern right now.

aeowulf wrote: »

There's too wide a gap right now. There will always be a meta class for tanking but it feels like if you do not play a DK you are not welcome in trials.

It really concerns me to think people don't grasp that these are two different things. (I'm giving this player's quote as an example of what I feel like we hear a lot.)

The fact that DK's are demanded in trials by players, does not mean that there is truly are huge gap between classes in performance. Dk's and warden have a small advantage which meta minded players turn into a demand. But the truth is that a class could have a mere 1% edge on another class, and in top end trials that would translate into elite players insisting on the class with that slight advantage.

The end result is that players get the impression that there is some massive gap which isn't the reality. All classes can do all content.

My one encouragement @Liofa is that you as our representative seem to grasp that the insistence on DK's is 95% due to engulfing flames. What needs to happen is to fix engulfing flames immediately!!! As a DK I am getting very concerned that all these cries for nerf are going to wreck us. Please get them to fix engulfing flames so that we don't have that advantage. When that happens the DK will no longer be demanded by meta so exclusively and the nerf target will get off our back before they begin nerfing us in unnecessary ways.

This is a DK begging you to take the engulfing flames buff away from us. Because if you don't they are going to start taking other things in a mistaken attempt to balance.

DKs dont need a nerf. They are good how they are atm.
Other classes just need a buff.
The difference isnt just engulfing flames though. If we look at the NB since its my main. We dont have a good stam sustain, we dont have have a class shield to surpress dots, we dont have a class AoE root (not stun), we dont have a class chain, we dont have synergies, we dont have any group utility (even less with the CP nerf to the Tactician passive) and the list goes on.
Again tell Wrobel to buff other classes and not nerf existing classes.

To your point that there should be a class thats better than other classes. Sure. But NBs are currently the best DPS because they are the hardest to pull off. So go ahead make DKs harder to play if you still want to be the best. That would be fair.



Edit:

All classes can do all content.

This comment popped up several times in your feedback. And it rather confuses me to be honest.
If your definiton of balance is "it can do content" why are you so afraid of a DK nerf? Im sure it will still be able to do all content

I don't think that's a good idea. Homogenizing the classes makes classes... Irrelevant. Why play a DK when a nb has the same tools as a DK tank? Why play sorc if a DK can streak as well? We don't need class chains or class root, what we need is identity, and to make sure that identity is viable in endgame. If our identity is self heals, Templar / wardens will out heal us. If our resource management is the top dog (which it was back before morrowind) sorcerers and dks do it better. The question that needs to be asked if what does a non dk tank bring to the table?

Maybe Templar tanks are less mobile but their mitigation is much better than the rest?

Maybe sorc tanks bring lots of crowd control but are not as effective at single target tanking?

Maybe nb tanks should be able to do dodge tanking while managing resources, but are bad at crowd control?

Identity is important, and when you do have it, the fights in pve has to accommodate all these factors. Like maybe for a fight, a DK might suit to be an off tank while a nb is needed to dodge the attacks?

But all I see now is that in trials or even in dungeon HM, dks give the best bang for buck, while the warden is a close second. Even if its a 1% difference, there isn't any other group setup that people would be willing to experiment with.

Its really not about homogenizing, these things are a necessity. A tank needs roots, chains, group buffs. Thats also the reason why we got silver leash as a chain because tanks need those things (eventhough Silver Leash is terrible). If one class doesnt have those things everybody will play other classes. Thats also why people prefer DKs and Wardens they both have the tools.

Also NB Tanks are not really ideal for single target bosses. Like I said we have terrible sustain, Major Evasion isnt reliable like shields, we get melted by unpurgable DoTs and AoEs because you cant dodge these things and we also have no group buffs.
Major Evasion is also only 15% meaning you should dodge every 6,5 hits in theory. Thats terrible for slow but heavy hitting single target fights.

It really isnt about homogenizing, its about making other classes viable which they are not at the moment.

I have a DK Tank, and please if you want to know why we want these things, please just make yourself an Off-Meta tank and play it yourself and see all the problems other classes have. It really isnt fair and we keep getting nerfs e.g. the Tactician Passive not working with Evasion anymore.

Actually I do, I have a nb tank, sorc tank and a warden tank with the Templar on standby in case there are any positive changes to their kit.

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you meant class chains. If you mean nbs should get something akin to dk or warden, then I disagree. Again, while i agree that it is a useful tanking tool, in essence, even if it is a different animation, it will still homogenize the classes.

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you meant class chains. If you mean nbs should get something akin to dk or warden, then I disagree. Again, while i agree that it is a useful tanking tool, in essence, even if it is a different animation or skill, it will still homogenize the classes.

No, I was counting the issues between non DK and DK Tanks, because people were saying there is no gap or only a 1% gap. Which isnt true imo.
The changes I want to see for NB Tanks are listed in a comment above and I honestly think that these changes wouldnt make NB Tanks OP or outshine the DK, but it would still help us a lot. (At least in my opinion after tanking all the harder stuff.)

Its essential because the fights makes it so. What happened to bringing all the melee mobs to the range ones? To range taunt Los? To

That would be very situational. You cant just walk to the ads in vMoL Twins. And you also drop dedicated chainers in a score run for more DPS and the Tanks have to chain themselves. This can be done with Silver Leash but it drains your Stamina a lot. Even more if you try to chain an ad on CC cooldown or accidentaly the boss and that happens all the time because of the huge hitboxes. However most of the trials dont really need chaining anyway, dungeons however are different. In dungeons you NEED chains and roots.

Imo reducing the cost for silver leash and the damage or making it cost more stam but giving stam back on "failure" could be options to improve that skill.

Need chains? Which fight? Falk hold? I don't see any other fights that really require a pull. A range taunt probably, not chains.

You can spam shields on yourself while taunting and silver leash pull. You won't take damage and you still have stamina to block.

Range taunt, Swarm mother, shield discipline, deep thoughts. Swap monster sets when pulling the boss.

There's not much need for Warhorn in dungeons. Upping a low dps wont magically increase that dps to 40k. Just like ebon, it's efficiency is hugely reduced in four man's. It helps, but not much imo.

Not going to lie, your post is very confusing. It may be glitched.

Your job as a tank is to pull ads into a small group so the DPS can just nuke them. And since dungeons tend to have more ads you also will need to chain more if you want to be effective.

No idea what shield youre talking about since NBs dont even have a class shield? Im confused.

Swarm Mother is usually what I use in Dungeons since I dont have a root and chaining tends to be expensive, however by doing so I neglet group resistances by not slotting Lord Warden or group heals via Earthgore. While DKs for example still can equip whatever they want since they have a rather cheap/save chain and a root.

War Horn is still a must in dungeons. I usually run dungeons with at least 90k DPS. 130-140k if I run without a healer, so yes War Horn is still needed if you want to complete hardmode Scalecaller or the speedrun. Ebon is situational, if you have 14-15k mag DDs then you should definitly wear it. Otherwise Dragonguard or Torugs are still an option.

But I still dont get why you mention all these things to be honest. It wasnt even the topic, Im confused.

Yeah I think the quotes glitches out. I was responding to the one that states you need chains in dungeons.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, there's multiple ways to group up enemies as a tank. Using chains is one of them. As you've stated, swarm mother is an option. Using Los is an option. Not permablocking while chaining so you have Stam recovery up is another. The thing about shields was not just about nb, there's Templar tanks and sorc tanks as well. We can't just push the agenda for nbs. It has to be for all classes, for all tanks.

The changes has to be made with all the aspects of eso in mind as well. What about pvp? Bg? Solo play? What works really well in pve might be broken in pvp.

For @Liofa, how about if leeching strikes were to proc on direct melee damage taken?

Again, I said several times that all the other classes need a buff not only NB Tanks. But since I main a NB Tank I can only say what NB Tanks need. Im not trying to push only NB Tanks, its simply the only class I can give feedback on. I wouldnt want to speak on others behalf because I simply dont play their class.

And like I already said, the changes I want to see for NB Tanks are listed above, and imo not one of the changes would break PvP or make NBs OP. You can go ahead and read it and decide for yourself if you believe that it would break PvP.

But I dont want to derail this thread any longer and will stop posting so others can list their 2 pain points.

Integral1900 wrote: »

One thing might be to make something like the Diablo 3 wardrobe system where you would save whole setups, cp, gear, skills and all then put it in the town center. That way a player could switch between a tank and a dps. Otherwise, outside of vet group content a meta tank is just a dead charecter, no one wants to go questing with a charecter that takes so long to kill mobs

The game could seriously use a proper dual spec. Completely saved all variables (skills/morph/CP/gear) across 2 templates. Hell, they could add it as a crown store feature for 3k crowns and I'd still buy it in a heartbeat.

Integral1900 wrote: »

One problem is that a meta tank is just not appealing to most players, it’s as simple as that. The only way to reliably boost the number of proper tanks in this game is to increase their ability to do what most players seem to want to do, namely to let them do more damage, even in vet. But the pvp brigade will whine about balance again and the whole conversation goes nowhere

PVP is a real part of the game that does in fact need to be balanced, so I'm not sure its productive to call players' requests that it be balanced "whining".

I completely agree with your main point, though: tanking would be considerably more popular (and appealing to beginners) if it involved more damage and less of the slow-paced, resource-obsessed style that has dominated this game since Morrowind.

I don't think moving tanking in this direction would necessarily create imbalance in PVP. The style of tanking that most matches what we're talking about, NB sap tanking, existed for years without making nightblades overpowered in Cyrodiil (they might have been overpowered, but not for the reasons that made sap tanking possible). What's instructive about sap tanking is that a sap tank didn't do all that much damage, not really. But it was an extremely active style of tanking, one that required you to be more or less constantly casting damaging skills in order to keep your health and resources and ally buffs up (while selectively, intelligently blocking the big hits).

The trick that kept this from unbalancing PVP, again, is that a sap tank didn't actually deal all that much damage. (It was potent as a group support build in Cyrodiil, but that's exactly what a tank should be there.) But it made players feel strong as tanks, in ways that the current resource-management-simulator meta doesn't come close to doing. I'd love to see changes to all classes, and tanking mechanics in general, that made this kind of active, brawler-style tanking a more viable option for all classes.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Harbinger_GR wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

One thing might be to make something like the Diablo 3 wardrobe system where you would save whole setups, cp, gear, skills and all then put it in the town center. That way a player could switch between a tank and a dps. Otherwise, outside of vet group content a meta tank is just a dead charecter, no one wants to go questing with a charecter that takes so long to kill mobs

The game could seriously use a proper dual spec. Completely saved all variables (skills/morph/CP/gear) across 2 templates. Hell, they could add it as a crown store feature for 3k crowns and I'd still buy it in a heartbeat.

That's still not going to change the fact that nobody would level as a tank. You would still need 2 different gear setups that nobody would make/collect before lvl50/CP160. Increasing the DPS of pure tanks is really the only thing that will address that problem. Sure, it would be nice to have such an option, but it's not really solving anything except for the people who want to have different morphs for PvP/PvE. Switching gear is all that is needed for a char to go from a full tank to a passable DD if you spent the time to collect enough skill points. And if it's hidden behind a paywall, it's going to be even less helpful.

You're absulutely correct. Dual spec is more of a QOL than a solution. I mentioned it because like someone said, the more you invest into tanking the more you stray from DPSing.

Of course tanks should be doing more damage. Like I said, playing as a tank on overland content feels like waiting for paint to dry.

I_B_Squishy wrote: »

@Liofa what do you think of a high damage health based AOE taunt that new tanks can level with? Also making frost staff wall of elements a taunt? Both can be health based like the warden AOEs

Health based damage abilities sound good but AOE taunts do not. I already mentioned AOE taunts during the first meeting as a pain point since it was a big percentage of the feedback from tanks. The reply was that fights are designed in a way that not all adds need to be taunted and the small ones are not dangerous to other group members. They have no intention of implementing AOE taunts to the game. Of course I don't remember the exact words but the answer was something similar to this.

On the other hand, Health Based attacks sound good and encourages the tank gameplay in early game.

Health as a cost would be difficult I would think, and would introduce another problem tanks would complain about. As well as putting extra coding on the devs.

Scaling damage from health is already in game with the warden winter's embrace line-gripping shards and arctic blast scale off health. I haven't gotten on a practice dummy yet to record dps but I think top single target damage using those two skills and light attacks is about 10-15k..........on my warden tank in vet dungeons I max health at about 62k. It's not the best damage but decent enough to feel somewhat productive.

The bottlenecks are the very limited magicka pool and heavy armor not having penetration but for short fights it's adequate.

Harbinger_GR wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

On the other hand, Health Based attacks sound good and encourages the tank gameplay in early game.

Did you discuss about it? Anything specific you can share?

No. Due to low amount of feedback on this topic, I didn't include it as a pain point.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Tanks do not need more damage intrinsic to the role. At all.

Why not? Unless you're referring to PvP content.