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[Class Rep] Tanking Feedback Thread

  • ZeroXFF
    ZeroXFF
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Tanks do not need more damage intrinsic to the role. At all.

    We do, that's the reason nobody levels as one. If people can't do easy solo content at a reasonable pace, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the dungeon queue for tanks is empty and that the people who opt for tanking after reaching lvl50 have no clue how it's done.

    Also, healers can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars, while still having enough healing skills to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation. So we have a precedent in ESO of a support role doing 5-10x of the damage a tank does. I just did some quests with a full healer gear setup (Earthgore+Kagrenac+SPC), and I basically 2-shot all non-elite overland mobs. How is that different from tanks doing the same? And in regards to PvP, as long as a healer has resources you can't kill him either, unless you gang up on him. Pretty much the same situation with tanks, except if you don't take out the healer, you won't be able to kill anyone in his group, while you can leave the tank until he is alone and just melt him down then.

    So not only do we need more DPS for gameplay reasons, it would only be fair if we got it, considering what the other support role can do.
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    You established no precedent because there is no equivalency in itemization. They don't build anything alike - more importantly a tank isn't a support, despite the gear being worn. Tanks often require the most support to produce desireable results.

    More importantly the answer to "tanks need more DPS" is already in game. Because you opt to not build to do damage but to be more survivable is a choice you have made. Because you opt not to build damage in lieu on buffing your teammates is a choice you have made.

    The sets, the items and the gear are all out there, available to use for any tank that wants to do damage and more than sufficient for a vast majority of the content.

    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=76214

    That's a 9k spammable with self buffs. Your HA/HS/Bash combo will hit nearly as hard as anyone's LA/Spammable combo. You can bash weave because Maelstrom S&B is infinity sustain. You have 30khp and your heal actually heals for half of it over 5 seconds. Don't have Maelstrom? Doesn't matter, use EG instead of Blood Spawn. If you can't do damage with that then it's a straight up learn-how-to-let-the-RMB-go issue.

    I mean what do you propose? A 50% damage increase to skills base damage and then nuking their scaling coefficient so DPSers don't get a 100% net damage increase? Why, what purpose would that serve other than to help people (tanks, specifically) level in the overland? Are we then going to increase Healing by 50% and Effective HP by 50% across the board?

    Is there a problem with tanks not doing enough DPS in trials? You're posing a problem that is already answered and latently suggesting dramatic gamechanging.workarounds to avoid shopping on the guild trader for an hour.
    Edited by usmcjdking on July 25, 2018 5:13AM
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  • SquareSausage
    SquareSausage
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    Playing a tank is a conscious choice to sacrifice damage for survivability, if you don't get that concept then maybe tanking isn't for you.

    If you choose to quest/grind/farm in full tank gear/setup then that again is a conscious choice to gimp yourself as its not efficient. Do these people only have 1 character? Most sensible people will have a character for different roles if they are as claimed 'experienced'. Tank, healer, pvp toons, DD/farm characters etc.

    The vast majority of the game is easy solo overland content which doesnt require a full tank or any tank for that matter, therefore it holds most people will be playing as a DD at any one time which inturn is the main reason why there are so many DD in the queue for dungeons.

    A full noob to the game is not going to level as a full tank based specc, they will not even know what that is they will choose random skills all over the place. If someone comes to ESO and decides to level solely as a tank then that suggests they have an understanding of MMOs and therefore have made a conscious choice to do things the slow way.

    There we go, glad we have now cleared that up and we can actually talk about tank issues and not people being stubborn.

    Breakfast King
    PS4 EU
  • DoobZ69
    DoobZ69
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    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Tanks do not need more damage intrinsic to the role. At all.

    We do, that's the reason nobody levels as one. If people can't do easy solo content at a reasonable pace, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the dungeon queue for tanks is empty and that the people who opt for tanking after reaching lvl50 have no clue how it's done.

    Also, healers can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars, while still having enough healing skills to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation
    . So we have a precedent in ESO of a support role doing 5-10x of the damage a tank does. I just did some quests with a full healer gear setup (Earthgore+Kagrenac+SPC), and I basically 2-shot all non-elite overland mobs. How is that different from tanks doing the same? And in regards to PvP, as long as a healer has resources you can't kill him either, unless you gang up on him. Pretty much the same situation with tanks, except if you don't take out the healer, you won't be able to kill anyone in his group, while you can leave the tank until he is alone and just melt him down then.

    So not only do we need more DPS for gameplay reasons, it would only be fair if we got it, considering what the other support role can do.

    Once again spewing nonsense. Comparing "tank damage" (without specifying what you mean) of a levelling tank to a fully levelled healer while stating "can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars...... to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation". Utter garbage, apples and oranges.
    So get your tank to full level and gear, change some damage skills on their bars and run any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation. How many times do you have to be told this??

    As an example I play a tank only and without changing my skills I change gear ONLY and jump into Cyrodiil or do questing without much of an issue. I can tank DLC vet dungeons no problem. Oh, by the way, I don't play a DK.

    Well, I don't know how leveling a healer is, I never leveled one, but if you're implying that tanks who are leveling do the same damage as healers doing the same, we obviously play a very different game. Having to collect a 2nd set of gear just to do overland content, regardless of level, is not a reasonable answer. How many times do you have to be told this?

    On my templar when I switch to all dps gear (War Maiden + Innate Axiom) with a monster set with a damage proc (Shadowrend), I can just barely do 10k dps, and only as long as I have any magicka to burn and don't actually need to block. When I run with the setup I usually used for tanking before I gave up on tanking with a templar (Vampire Cloak + Bloodthorn's Touch), I end up with 5-6k dps, again only as long as I have magicka to burn and don't have to block, and both of the sets still have offensive bonuses. If I was to respec to stam and use 1hs skills, I doubt I would be getting even that, considering my experience with the DK. And that latter setup wasn't good enough for vFL hm either.

    On a DK it looks even worse. The only way I can do overland content without dying of old age is if I equip medium armor and use dw/bow. On my warden healer I can do sustained 20k dps with Winter's Revenge, Deep Fissure, Blockade, Swarm and spamming Cliff Racer/Crushing Shock, without switching gear (Earthgore+SPC+Kagrenac). All while having a healing ulti on the destro staff bar.

    Enough context for you? Or was that remark just there to show that you actually don't know what you're talking about?

    Back when I made my DK, I tried leveling him as tank, and equipping a bow on the back bar and putting down dots didn't help much, because stamina was low and those skills did next to no damage.

    Thank you for the context. Let's break it down.
    You're >specced for HP< because you are tanking
    using >magicka based dps gear< (with some stamina buffs and a non-dps proc??)
    >wearing a dps staff< (because magicka right?)
    >using magicka skills< (because staff right?)
    and you're asking for "tanking dps buff" why?? Nothing you have in there is for tanking

    A normal dungeon tank needs to equip a 1h weapon and a shield and a taunt, that's it. Not spend a whole month farming for a second set of gear like you're suggesting. So level using DPS skills/gear and have 2/4 items in the bag for dungeons. If he/she doesn't know the fights/mechanics then more needs to be invested in tanking to survive and by the same token the DPS who equally does NOT know the fights won't be able to tank while purely invested in DPS and is thus in no way "just as equal in survivability while DPSing" as the tank.

    Once more you are asking for something contradictory. A group consists of 1 tank, 2 DPS, 1 healer for a reason. Someone needs to be able to take the big hits, someone needs to be able to heal the person who takes the big hits and someone who does the DPS. Each role invests and gives up accordingly. You're arguing that the tank gives up more than the other classes do and perhaps you are right, but that is not a tanking issue, that is a role balance issue. When a dedicated DPS can tank as much as a dedicated tank it doesn't necessarily mean tanks should now DPS as much in turn, it could mean the DPS should not be doing as much tanking.
  • ZeroXFF
    ZeroXFF
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    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    ZeroXFF wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Tanks do not need more damage intrinsic to the role. At all.

    We do, that's the reason nobody levels as one. If people can't do easy solo content at a reasonable pace, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the dungeon queue for tanks is empty and that the people who opt for tanking after reaching lvl50 have no clue how it's done.

    Also, healers can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars, while still having enough healing skills to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation
    . So we have a precedent in ESO of a support role doing 5-10x of the damage a tank does. I just did some quests with a full healer gear setup (Earthgore+Kagrenac+SPC), and I basically 2-shot all non-elite overland mobs. How is that different from tanks doing the same? And in regards to PvP, as long as a healer has resources you can't kill him either, unless you gang up on him. Pretty much the same situation with tanks, except if you don't take out the healer, you won't be able to kill anyone in his group, while you can leave the tank until he is alone and just melt him down then.

    So not only do we need more DPS for gameplay reasons, it would only be fair if we got it, considering what the other support role can do.

    Once again spewing nonsense. Comparing "tank damage" (without specifying what you mean) of a levelling tank to a fully levelled healer while stating "can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars...... to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation". Utter garbage, apples and oranges.
    So get your tank to full level and gear, change some damage skills on their bars and run any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation. How many times do you have to be told this??

    As an example I play a tank only and without changing my skills I change gear ONLY and jump into Cyrodiil or do questing without much of an issue. I can tank DLC vet dungeons no problem. Oh, by the way, I don't play a DK.

    Well, I don't know how leveling a healer is, I never leveled one, but if you're implying that tanks who are leveling do the same damage as healers doing the same, we obviously play a very different game. Having to collect a 2nd set of gear just to do overland content, regardless of level, is not a reasonable answer. How many times do you have to be told this?

    On my templar when I switch to all dps gear (War Maiden + Innate Axiom) with a monster set with a damage proc (Shadowrend), I can just barely do 10k dps, and only as long as I have any magicka to burn and don't actually need to block. When I run with the setup I usually used for tanking before I gave up on tanking with a templar (Vampire Cloak + Bloodthorn's Touch), I end up with 5-6k dps, again only as long as I have magicka to burn and don't have to block, and both of the sets still have offensive bonuses. If I was to respec to stam and use 1hs skills, I doubt I would be getting even that, considering my experience with the DK. And that latter setup wasn't good enough for vFL hm either.

    On a DK it looks even worse. The only way I can do overland content without dying of old age is if I equip medium armor and use dw/bow. On my warden healer I can do sustained 20k dps with Winter's Revenge, Deep Fissure, Blockade, Swarm and spamming Cliff Racer/Crushing Shock, without switching gear (Earthgore+SPC+Kagrenac). All while having a healing ulti on the destro staff bar.

    Enough context for you? Or was that remark just there to show that you actually don't know what you're talking about?

    Back when I made my DK, I tried leveling him as tank, and equipping a bow on the back bar and putting down dots didn't help much, because stamina was low and those skills did next to no damage.

    Thank you for the context. Let's break it down.
    You're >specced for HP< because you are tanking
    using >magicka based dps gear< (with some stamina buffs and a non-dps proc??)
    >wearing a dps staff< (because magicka right?)
    >using magicka skills< (because staff right?)
    and you're asking for "tanking dps buff" why?? Nothing you have in there is for tanking

    A normal dungeon tank needs to equip a 1h weapon and a shield and a taunt, that's it. Not spend a whole month farming for a second set of gear like you're suggesting. So level using DPS skills/gear and have 2/4 items in the bag for dungeons. If he/she doesn't know the fights/mechanics then more needs to be invested in tanking to survive and by the same token the DPS who equally does NOT know the fights won't be able to tank while purely invested in DPS and is thus in no way "just as equal in survivability while DPSing" as the tank.

    Once more you are asking for something contradictory. A group consists of 1 tank, 2 DPS, 1 healer for a reason. Someone needs to be able to take the big hits, someone needs to be able to heal the person who takes the big hits and someone who does the DPS. Each role invests and gives up accordingly. You're arguing that the tank gives up more than the other classes do and perhaps you are right, but that is not a tanking issue, that is a role balance issue. When a dedicated DPS can tank as much as a dedicated tank it doesn't necessarily mean tanks should now DPS as much in turn, it could mean the DPS should not be doing as much tanking.

    Ok, let's break it down for you...
    1. Attributes split between mag and HP because Templars have no heals that scale with max. HP (and since recently they are the only class without such a heal, now that NBs got one, but that's a topic for a class discussion, just mentioning it for context), so I have to go mag to ever hope to survive if the healer is busy or dead.
    2. Magicka based heavy armor DPS gear, because it's more effective with a mag tank. A stam buff because well, I still have to use 1hs and block, regardless of the way I go with my build if I still want to call myself a tank, and the monster set is chosen so that I can drop Low Slash to save stamina on an already low stam build, and it does do some damage, so yeah, it is a damage proc.
    3. Wearing ice staff on back bar, 1hs front bar.
    4. Yep, magicka skills, because I have 31k magicka with the setup you're commenting on.
    Asking for tank DPS buffs/DPS HP scaling because then I wouldn't need to make such weird builds just to be able to quest, I would be able to just go with my normal full tank setup.

    You really have a talent for missing the point.

    Someone needs to be able to take the big hits, someone needs to be able to heal the person who takes the big hits and someone who does the DPS
    And all of them have to be able to have an enjoyable experience while questing, regardless of what they do in groups, because that's literally the content that is supposed to be accessible for everyone. But you're fighting me on this, because you'd rather have tanks be the only ones to suffer or jump through hoops to be able to do it at the same pace as a lvl20 DD or healer. Why would you even try to justify something like that?

    And regardless of whether DDs can tank or not, that won't help tanks with questing. Besides, where the hell did I use DD survival as an argument for tank DPS? Your rant about that is not addressing anything I said. I used heal DPS as an argument for tank DPS. And if, as you suggest, DDs didn't have the survival that they do, leave tank damage at a level where they can't kill a mudcrab before the heat death of the universe, who would be able to do things like vMA at all? Healers? Good joke. The game isn't designed for what you imagine would be ideal.

    And don't twist my words, I'm not saying tanks should be doing as much DPS as DDs, I'm saying they should do about as much as healers without switching gear if we go by the very logic you describe with who chooses to do what in a group. Currently they do 1/2 of a healer's damage, but only when they strip their tanking ability to the bare bones, while healers can run with 100% healing gear for that ratio to be true.
    Edited by ZeroXFF on July 26, 2018 7:05AM
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    Guys the lack of tanks is not because they do poor DPS whilst levelling, it's because 60% of classes are not desired/fun/etc in that role. Anyone <could> level as DPS, and switch to tank at a later point, but they don't. Why? Too much emphasis on points/raid leaders only wanting DK/warden etc No other tanks are desired, so if you <love> your day 1 templar you are out of luck in that role.

    Want more tanks? 'Fix' the reason people don't change roles to them and stop making changes that remove viability from some classes - e.g. Morrowind & sap tanks/tankplars. Or at least don't let them go live. The warnings were there on PTS.
  • Narvuntien
    Narvuntien
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    You don't only quest whille leveling.. you quest all the time.

    So if your tank can't quest you'll just never log into that character unless someone, perhaps a guildmate, specifically asks for a tank. You don't bother with dailies you wont pick up someone from zone chat because you aren't on your tank character.. because you can't play them, they are merely a tool you need sometimes to help someone.

    You don't get attached to your tank, they are a character, its an RPG, not a mechanical game, you either form character because you are a role player and you build it from the top down or they form character through doing the quests and you making choices and you from the "feels" you get from using their abilities.

    I think the feels for tanks being, a tool, a set meta following goal that if you don't follow the meta set up straight up doesn't work. There is not enough wiggle room for creativity.

    Yeah yeah I know you can complete a lot of content off meta, but even healers have a lot more options on playing the way they want than a tank does. And as noted playing meta isn't even about being an unkillable rock that a tank power fantasy should be... its about how close to the line of death you can to give your group maximum damage.

    There is a break between the role play of being a tank and the mechanical process of being a tank that is an issue in an RPG.
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    My story
    The first year and half I played as a DK tank and even earned the Tamriel Hero achievement name with it, so I did a lot of quest. Then I got bored and started playing other toons as dps and I quickly learned that it was a lot more fun than playing as a tank. What took me 1 ½ years took me 6 months or less with a dps character to earn Tamriel Hero achievement.

    My personal opinion is a little more dps based on health would not hurt for PVE. I know this would be breaking in PVP so it would have to managed with trial and error. But taking 15 -30 seconds to kill something with tank vs. 3-5 seconds on a dps is to wide of a margin.

    I know the argument is not level a tank but a dps then change to dps, but nowhere is this told or even implicated in the game. In order for the game to continue to attract and keep new players as tanks I think a little more enjoyment overall would help the class in general.
  • ZOS_JesC
    ZOS_JesC
    admin
    Greetings, we've removed several baiting comments that were derailing the thread. This is a friendly reminder to keep all comments on topic with the thread, constructive, and civil. Thank you.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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  • SquareSausage
    SquareSausage
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    The beauty of this game compared to others we have the ability to play however we want. Use any weapons. Any skills from our class. Any world skills too. We are not stuck into a role permanently through game mechanics.

    The possibilities on how you play are endless.
    If someone decides to play one build for all content then that's up to them but if they feel they aren't performing as well as other builds because of their rigorous adherement to that one build then that is a player problem and not a role problem.

    Essentially some may call it a L2P problem.
    Breakfast King
    PS4 EU
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    The beauty of this game compared to others we have the ability to play however we want. Use any weapons. Any skills from our class. Any world skills too. We are not stuck into a role permanently through game mechanics.

    The possibilities on how you play are endless.
    If someone decides to play one build for all content then that's up to them but if they feel they aren't performing as well as other builds because of their rigorous adherement to that one build then that is a player problem and not a role problem.

    Essentially some may call it a L2P problem.

    Yep, and I love ESO for that reason, but it's only valid up to a point. That point is around the area of being happy to change gear/skills but not class. Some classes are significantly better at some roles than other classes and have dominated certain aspects of ESO for years, DK tanking, templar healing etc. L2P may well be an answer, but it's only an answer if the entire group/trial are willing to L2P with the non meta class in question.

    The whole levelling/DPS thing is borderline a distraction in my eyes, a distraction away from actual tanking issues. Easily resolved by swapping gear/mentality.
  • dipstik
    dipstik
    Soul Shriven
    so i made a magsorc just the other day and i was blown away. my lvl 1 sorc can crit for almost 12k whereas the highest number ive even seen from my dk cp 400 tank is 5k.

    and... leveling is actually fun... who knew that being able to kill stuff in a reasonable amount of time in a video game was good game design.

    since i cant kill stuff (in a reasonable amount of time) on my tank when i solo quest (unless i respec/reslot/regear to a dps... which means i am no longer a tank) means that it is not fun and, in theory, bad game design is at fault.

    the designers are asking us about our experiences tanking is so they can modify/augment their game design to make the game more fair/fun.

    unless they are doing it for some other reason... in which case im in the wrong thread.

  • DoobZ69
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    Can't wait to start kicking 1h/shield nubs out of my runs queued as DPS. Go for it ZOS, do iiiiiiit!
  • Gralor
    Gralor
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    I‘d like to highlight one pain point that hasn’t been mentioned so far. Correct me if I’m wrong.

    While reading the [Class Reps] Meeting Notes - July 20 I noticed the following statement regarding healers:
    Healers:
    Battleground changes still don’t recognize healer contributions (medals, achievements, their own “column” on the scoresheet, etc.). ZOS says they are aware of this and changes will come

    I can’t but wonder why tanks are not being mentioned in the same way, considering they get rewarded with even less points than healers despite their quite valuable contribution to the team if played right.

    I’d like to give one example from my personal experience over the last few weeks in Battlegrounds: During the Relic Capture game mode, a tank can be assigned as a defense, while the rest of the group heads out to capture the enemies’ relics. During that time, the tank can withstand dozen attempts to be robbed of his own relic by bashing and keeping foes busy, but in the end he’ll be rewarded with literally zero points, because he didn’t kill nor healed anyone. The tank in this case contributes a lot in order for his team to potentially win this game, so I don’t see any reason for him not to be rewarded in some way. For example by getting points for each bash of an enemy who tries to steal the relic.

    A similar case is Cyrodiil: A tank standing within a keep breach or getting himself right between enemies and allies, taking the hits while allies revive each other or use the time to retreat is not being rewarded for his efforts. While both a DD who’s spamming Light Attacks and a healer who’s spamming Healing Springs will be rewarded with thousands of AP, a tank hardly gets rewarded with AP at all. Some sort of AP gain for tanks should be implemented, so all three roles in ESO are being rewarded equally in PVP, which is not the case currently. Many more players who like tanking might be enjoying PVP if that’d be the case.

    giphy.gif

    This HODOR-kind of gameplay deserves to be recognized and rewarded, because that’s what a valuable tank in PVP stands for!

    @Liofa, perhaps you can add it to the list for the next Class Rep meeting.
  • xI_The_Owl_Ix
    xI_The_Owl_Ix
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    ESO_Blash wrote: »
    I‘d like to highlight one pain point that hasn’t been mentioned so far. Correct me if I’m wrong.

    While reading the [Class Reps] Meeting Notes - July 20 I noticed the following statement regarding healers:
    Healers:
    Battleground changes still don’t recognize healer contributions (medals, achievements, their own “column” on the scoresheet, etc.). ZOS says they are aware of this and changes will come

    I can’t but wonder why tanks are not being mentioned in the same way, considering they get rewarded with even less points than healers despite their quite valuable contribution to the team if played right.

    I’d like to give one example from my personal experience over the last few weeks in Battlegrounds: During the Relic Capture game mode, a tank can be assigned as a defense, while the rest of the group heads out to capture the enemies’ relics. During that time, the tank can withstand dozen attempts to be robbed of his own relic by bashing and keeping foes busy, but in the end he’ll be rewarded with literally zero points, because he didn’t kill nor healed anyone. The tank in this case contributes a lot in order for his team to potentially win this game, so I don’t see any reason for him not to be rewarded in some way. For example by getting points for each bash of an enemy who tries to steal the relic.

    A similar case is Cyrodiil: A tank standing within a keep breach or getting himself right between enemies and allies, taking the hits while allies revive each other or use the time to retreat is not being rewarded for his efforts. While both a DD who’s spamming Light Attacks and a healer who’s spamming Healing Springs will be rewarded with thousands of AP, a tank hardly gets rewarded with AP at all. Some sort of AP gain for tanks should be implemented, so all three roles in ESO are being rewarded equally in PVP, which is not the case currently. Many more players who like tanking might be enjoying PVP if that’d be the case.

    giphy.gif

    This HODOR-kind of gameplay deserves to be recognized and rewarded, because that’s what a valuable tank in PVP stands for!

    @Liofa, perhaps you can add it to the list for the next Class Rep meeting.

    I actually kind of did, but it didnt get much attention:
    PvP/Cyrodiil
    - Theres no need to run a Tank in Cyrodiil. You barely get any AP for defending/debuffing/blocking enemy Players. I run a Minor/Major Defile Tank and I see that I help by debuffing people to the point where they cant heal themselves, but I dont benefit from it all. It feels like Im helping other players get AP instead of actually getting AP for helping.
    Suggestions:
    Make the "Guard" Skill give AP to the guarding Tank after absorbing enough damage or when the guarded Player gets a kill (but only if you absorbed damage before).
    Give AP to everyone who debuffed an enemy Player just before their death.
    Give AP to everyone who survives huge amounts of damage.

    I would love to see Tanks get rewarded in PvP, right now they are useless in everything PvP related, not getting any AP for actually playing their role.
  • Starlock
    Starlock
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    I only have one main tank, but I tend to double-tip into taking with my other characters. Main things I've noticed across various classes doing tanking are these things (Psijic skill line provided a great toolbox for tanks across classes, by the way, kudos on that!):
    • I tried frost staves for a bit. It was kind of awful. I want to like this play style, but it is clunky in its current iteration. The wind up time for heavy attacks is too long, which makes it too difficult to pull aggression from multiple enemies or in a time-sensitive fashion. If I create up a more dedicated frost tank, I'm going to S&B on one of the bars to have a faster taunt (or use Inner Fire). Possible solutions to this issue include reducing the heavy attack wind up time for ice staves with a passive in the destruction tree, or giving frost staves an area taunt with a similar passive. If it's not outside the realm of possibility, I'd drop the tanking from ice staves and create a new magicka weapon type to focus on taking (either alteration or illusion could be appropriate).
    • Untauntable bosses are boo. They make you feel rather useless, you know? Though paradoxically, they can also make you feel more useful. Those moments when the boss punches a damage dealer in the face and it almost kills them? Yeah, they realize real quick how nice it is to have a tank hold aggression off them in most other situations (and a healer... haha). Plus, untauntable bosses mix things up a bit and make the game interesting. Perhaps have untauntable bosses hold up a neon sign saying "I can't be taunted - don't blame the tank for your failure to block." I jest, I jest...
  • BejaProphet
    BejaProphet
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    Starlock wrote: »
    They make you feel rather useless, you know? Though paradoxically, they can also make you feel more useful. Those moments when the boss punches a damage dealer in the face and it almost kills them? Yeah, they realize real quick how nice it is to have a tank hold aggression off them in most other situations (and a healer... haha).
    [/list]

    Haha, I love it.
  • SquareSausage
    SquareSausage
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    dipstik wrote: »
    so i made a magsorc just the other day and i was blown away. my lvl 1 sorc can crit for almost 12k whereas the highest number ive even seen from my dk cp 400 tank is 5k.

    and... leveling is actually fun... who knew that being able to kill stuff in a reasonable amount of time in a video game was good game design.

    since i cant kill stuff (in a reasonable amount of time) on my tank when i solo quest (unless i respec/reslot/regear to a dps... which means i am no longer a tank) means that it is not fun and, in theory, bad game design is at fault.

    the designers are asking us about our experiences tanking is so they can modify/augment their game design to make the game more fair/fun.

    unless they are doing it for some other reason... in which case im in the wrong thread.
    Comparing a battle levelled level 1 with CP allocated into doing more damage and using a high direct damage ability to a tank isn't a very fair test.

    The purpose of a role is really only pertinent when it comes to group situations, a tank takes the damage and holds the aggro, the healer keeps people alive and the DDs kill the boss. The DD would have a hard time staying alive against The Warrior in vHR and the Tank would have a hard time doing damage as their builds don't match their role.

    When it comes to solo then there isn't really that sense of a role anymore as you are expected to do all 3 on the one character, take damage, keep yourself alive and kill the monsters. What you are left with is then a build.
    For overland you do not need those 33k resistances, 40k+ health and all sturdy armour pieces from your tank build as the content is not hard enough to require that. So therefore you have to adjust your build accordingly to make it more fun as you say by killing things quicker.

    It can't really come as a surprise that a character with a build in high crit, weapon/spell damage and one high max stat with CP and sets designed for doing more damage is going to actually do more damage than the tank build with low crit, low weapon/spell dmg and sets and skills giving resistances and heals. To give extra damage to traditional tank skills such as 1h&s would push those characters in the realms of godmode as you need to remember ZoS deliberately try to make skills work the same in pve as pvp.

    So the solution as you already know, if you want to play on your character which you tank with then when he is in overland you would be better served changing his gear and skills to allow faster kills. I do agree with you to an extent though as characters who are tank builds have the hardest swap over as their stats are usually hybridised and don't have one high max stat but for overland that is insignificant.

    So in summary to that I would say that doing damage in overland with a tank build is not really what this thread is about as you are only really a tank when in group content (or pvp, diff matter). The options to increase your damage are already available to you. Making a 2nd character if you do not wish to change your build is a good idea and glad you are having fun in overland with your damage orientated mag sorc.
    Breakfast King
    PS4 EU
  • BejaProphet
    BejaProphet
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    In full tank gear with 59 points into health it takes me five moves (plus the lightwweaves in between) to kill an overland mob. Is that really all that bad?

    Caltrops running at them, Venom claw when I get to them, LW, talons, LW, pierce armor, LW, Heroic slash = Dead. It doesn't feel tedious to me.

    After a year of doing it, its just muscle memory and a blur. Feels like a couple seconds.
  • Liofa
    Liofa
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    Hello everyone! Here are the Notes I'll be sharing with the Devs during the meeting. They are not finalized so please take some time to read it through and let me know if you want me to consider adding something in there. Keep in mind that these Notes are the result of countless feedback from this thread, the discord channel and in-game/Discord mails/whispers. I am also happy to be notified about any typos! Thanks ^^

    Tanking Feedback

    MAJOR POINTS

    1- FROST STAFF
    Frost Staves are being used by many tanks. The problem is, it's only for utility and only on back bar. Just like the Bow for Stamina DPS, it's not really viable to be a main weapon for tanking. The difference between 1h/s and Frost Staff while being used as a main weapon is huge.

    - Taunt: The heavy attack taunt is extremely slow and unreliable. Taunts usually need to happen in an instant. This 3 second casting time takes away from the tanks precious time and prevents the ability to get the attention of a loose enemy.

    - Debuffs: Frost Staff is nowhere near One Handed and Shield in terms of buffs and debuffs, most important being Major Fracture. While 1h/s has Minor Heroism, Minor Maim, Major Fracture and Breach on 2 skills; a Frost Staff user need to slot a lot more skills or even gear to get these. Some debuffs even require the player to be an another class.

    - Magicka Blocking: When we look at builds and skills we need on a tank setup, it is quite obvious why this passive is not taken. Most of our skills cost Magicka (all if we have no 1h/s) so using our main source of skills for blocking makes it really difficult to sustain. Most tanks don't get the passive as they want stamina to be drained while blocking on a Frost Staff. Losing the Sturdy trait and the stat enchant boosts this issue a bit more than it already is.




    2- GEAR DIVERSITY
    In ESO, most tanks are using gear that helps out their group. While some players are ok with this and some are not, the problem starts when tanks feel that they are stuck with only a few sets.

    - Alkosh and Ebon are considered to be the best for such a long time, players are exhausted that there is not much else to even consider instead of this setup. Of course there are few other sets that we all carry in our inventory but most are situational.

    - Buff and debuff sets are not giving much to the user. For example, Alkosh has absolutely no benefit to the tank player. Same with Galenwe 5 piece. Players want these kind of sets to be reworked into actual tank sets with these support bonuses on top. When we look at DPS players, they wear what they perform best with (DPS support sets such as War Machine benefit the player as well unlike Tanking support sets) while tanks are stuck with sets that they get almost no benefit from.

    - Sets that provide sustain and tankiness are not popular. Tanks want to use them but they prevent the capability to support the team. It's mostly because that they are not necessary to survive/sustain. Most common approach is "if I can survive/sustain with support sets, why would I use self sustaining ones?" Even the hardest content can be done in support sets due to how tanky we already are, even in support sets.




    3- CLASS DIVERSITY AND SKILLS
    Most non DK Tanks are frustrated that they are not welcome in a lot of content. Some players even reported that their raid leaders required them to swap to DK or won't be able to join.

    - As mentioned before, tanking in ESO became a matter of buffing and debuffing is as important as survival and sustain if not more. This is exactly what makes DK Tanks stay at the top. Not only they are the really good at survival and sustain with easy gameplay mechanics, they have the best class specific debuff (Engulfing Flames) in the game a tank can provide without sacrificing anything.

    - Even though every class has their advantages obviously but core skills that a tank need are missing from some classes. AOE Root is a common request from Templars and Nightblades, for example. Time Freeze helps but it's not the same thing as it takes time and it's more of a snare than a root. This also includes a big problem of buffs not going to 12 players but 6. Tanks cannot use their team buff skills like Igneous Weapons and Frost Cloak due to this problem.

    - Sustain in some classes are really bad. Meditate helps but it requires the player to drop block, locks in place and makes them vulnerable to many one-shots we have in several boss fights. Especially Templars are lacking a lot of stamina sustain. Their only way of restoring Stamina is a race with other Templars in the group. Nightblades have the same issue. Only skill that provides sustain while blocking requires light attacks to be at full potential which is something that conflicts with the tank playstyle. Saptanking is dead due to the changes made in Morrowind.



    MINOR POINTS
    Here are the things that players have problems with and want to see reworks.

    - The damage output is incredibly low while solo and/or doing Overland content.
    - Weapon Swapping drops the block for a split second, making the tank vulnerable to one shots.
    - Huge hitboxes make targeting very difficult.
    - There are way too many counters to tanks in PvP such as Bleeds, Oblivion damage and unblockable stuns/damage abilities.
    - A lot of AOEs don't have a telegram like Blockade and Meteor.
    - Not enough Health Scaling abilities.
    - Stand in one place and taunt/debuff fights are extremely boring and discourages players.
    - PvP Debuff sets (Durok's for example) are getting nerfed and there are less reasons to play a tank in PvP.
    - Some sets lose their 5 piece effect after bar swap if they are being used on weapons.
    - Certain playstyles are dead. Saptanking is not possible because of Morrowind changes. Damage Shield tanking is not reliable due to extremely heavy hits from many bosses in the new content. Other means of mitigation being heavily outperformed by blocking.
  • RavenSworn
    RavenSworn
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    @Liofa excellent writeup as usual. just a few comments on the notes;

    - Damage as a tank shouldnt be much of an issue. The Devs already allow us to play as a dps, tank and healer all in one character. I think the problem lies in making the changing of 'specs' easier rather than increasing damage done by tanks (though it would great if they can increase the damage output approx 15-20% more than what can be done now).
    - alot of the problems lie with the fact that both pvp and pve are intertwined. these has to be looked at since for eg increasing damage for tanks would affect pvp tremendously. likewise, it was the amazing capabilities for the Sap Tank to maintain resources while dealing damage and healing at the same time that brought upon the nerf.

    Other than that, Im all for it.
    Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.


    Of Wolf and Raven
    Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!
  • Liofa
    Liofa
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    @RavenSworn

    Hello! I feel the same about the damage part but there were too many feedback about this topic so I included it in there. The reason it's under Minor Points is because there are way too many people who are against the damage topic too. It's still a concern of some players so it's there. It's not necessarily asking for a damage buff since our job is not making suggestions but more to identify and prioterize problems. Minor Point list is basically things that are not the worst problems and the problems community is divided on. After this point, if ZOS wants to do something about it, they will take some action and maybe introduce a system that let's us swap gear/skills/CP, setup in general, in a quick way and be done with it. We don't know. Again, it was coming from a big amount of players so it's there :)
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    Tanks wanting to do damage overland can just switch gear.

    The problem is that this is not really clear as a good practice to beginners who may be thinking tank = heavy berserker style fighter. Plus the hassle of switching skills and CP, and that it's a gold sink that newer players may not be able to afford yet.
  • RavenSworn
    RavenSworn
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    Tanks wanting to do damage overland can just switch gear.

    The problem is that this is not really clear as a good practice to beginners who may be thinking tank = heavy berserker style fighter. Plus the hassle of switching skills and CP, and that it's a gold sink that newer players may not be able to afford yet.

    thats why i thought an easier way to switch specs or cp points, with a preset build would be a better choice for tanks who wanted to at least level up with a different setup than a complete tank.
    Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.


    Of Wolf and Raven
    Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!
  • SquareSausage
    SquareSausage
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    On board with the easier set up switching, but that goes for all classes and roles. Its Especially more noticeably a pain for us console plebs>

    A simple premade selection loadout would be ideal, could even have it housed on the emote or quick slot wheel which automatically changes your gear (which is in your bag) and bar set ups. CP and skill morphs is the sticking point as those are locked behind a gold paywall at the moment, but maybe they could be significantly reduced, and scale from level so new players pay a couple gold and CP160+ pay 1000g per loadout flip flop.



    Breakfast King
    PS4 EU
  • munster1404
    munster1404
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    I actually do all the quests on my tank. And I don't find overland stuff that agonisingly slow. You kill trash mobs like 20 seconds slower than DDs. Does it really matter? I take 8 mins maybe 10mins to down a WB. Besides slightly numb fingers, I don't find it tedious at all. Perhaps it's just me, I prefer staying still, taking the big hits rather than zipping around seeing big damage numbers flash on the screen. My main concern is sustain issue plaguing most tanks which has at least been partially addressed by Meditate from Psijic skill line.

    It would make things easier though if the devs remove the cost associated with CP and Skill line redistribution.
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    It's only slow if you've played an optimised DD. If you know no better you just assume the game is 'slow to kill things' The only bad thing is questing and seeing how fast an optimised DD can kill things. I think it's actually more a case of DPS being far too high on some toons. Back when tanks were doing 5k and DD were @ 20k - 15k was not a problem. Now the gap can be closer to ten times which is way too big, really. Don't care though, it's not a 'tanking' issue in my eyes. Just means prospective tanks get more practice, which is not a bad thing anyway.
  • Narvuntien
    Narvuntien
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    So I picked up Summerset when it was on sale over the weekend and my tank wants Psijic skill line which means.. I am questing on my tank... my fully speced pve tank who has no damage....

    To play dps.... what do I even wear? my tank is hybrid... most points in hp I have 0 skill points available to me I don't really have any damage abilities :/... I guess reflecting light and power of the light but those two skills have opposite scaling.

    Perhaps its the same issue as there is for hybird dps, tanks are typically hybrids so even if we put damage on we don't do a lot.

    As a side note with the restoring focus changes last patch I am over capped on spell resist :'( when standing in it .. I can't use Torug's pact set on my tank without waste...
    Edited by Narvuntien on August 16, 2018 5:02AM
  • Vajrak
    Vajrak
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    Make the last skill in the S&B line (not the ult) actually do damage/a potential spammable would fix most of the issue.
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    no, remove all forms of multiplicative damage scaling, and bring in diminishing returns. Mitigation already has 'diminishing returns', so the other areas should have. It will also bring in a lot more diversity as min-maxing will have reduced effectiveness. People than might consider equipping alternate skills/gear.
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