usmcjdking wrote: »Tanks do not need more damage intrinsic to the role. At all.
usmcjdking wrote: »Tanks do not need more damage intrinsic to the role. At all.
We do, that's the reason nobody levels as one. If people can't do easy solo content at a reasonable pace, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the dungeon queue for tanks is empty and that the people who opt for tanking after reaching lvl50 have no clue how it's done.
Also, healers can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars, while still having enough healing skills to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation. So we have a precedent in ESO of a support role doing 5-10x of the damage a tank does. I just did some quests with a full healer gear setup (Earthgore+Kagrenac+SPC), and I basically 2-shot all non-elite overland mobs. How is that different from tanks doing the same? And in regards to PvP, as long as a healer has resources you can't kill him either, unless you gang up on him. Pretty much the same situation with tanks, except if you don't take out the healer, you won't be able to kill anyone in his group, while you can leave the tank until he is alone and just melt him down then.
So not only do we need more DPS for gameplay reasons, it would only be fair if we got it, considering what the other support role can do.
Once again spewing nonsense. Comparing "tank damage" (without specifying what you mean) of a levelling tank to a fully levelled healer while stating "can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars...... to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation". Utter garbage, apples and oranges.
So get your tank to full level and gear, change some damage skills on their bars and run any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation. How many times do you have to be told this??
As an example I play a tank only and without changing my skills I change gear ONLY and jump into Cyrodiil or do questing without much of an issue. I can tank DLC vet dungeons no problem. Oh, by the way, I don't play a DK.
Well, I don't know how leveling a healer is, I never leveled one, but if you're implying that tanks who are leveling do the same damage as healers doing the same, we obviously play a very different game. Having to collect a 2nd set of gear just to do overland content, regardless of level, is not a reasonable answer. How many times do you have to be told this?
On my templar when I switch to all dps gear (War Maiden + Innate Axiom) with a monster set with a damage proc (Shadowrend), I can just barely do 10k dps, and only as long as I have any magicka to burn and don't actually need to block. When I run with the setup I usually used for tanking before I gave up on tanking with a templar (Vampire Cloak + Bloodthorn's Touch), I end up with 5-6k dps, again only as long as I have magicka to burn and don't have to block, and both of the sets still have offensive bonuses. If I was to respec to stam and use 1hs skills, I doubt I would be getting even that, considering my experience with the DK. And that latter setup wasn't good enough for vFL hm either.
On a DK it looks even worse. The only way I can do overland content without dying of old age is if I equip medium armor and use dw/bow. On my warden healer I can do sustained 20k dps with Winter's Revenge, Deep Fissure, Blockade, Swarm and spamming Cliff Racer/Crushing Shock, without switching gear (Earthgore+SPC+Kagrenac). All while having a healing ulti on the destro staff bar.
Enough context for you? Or was that remark just there to show that you actually don't know what you're talking about?
Back when I made my DK, I tried leveling him as tank, and equipping a bow on the back bar and putting down dots didn't help much, because stamina was low and those skills did next to no damage.
usmcjdking wrote: »Tanks do not need more damage intrinsic to the role. At all.
We do, that's the reason nobody levels as one. If people can't do easy solo content at a reasonable pace, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the dungeon queue for tanks is empty and that the people who opt for tanking after reaching lvl50 have no clue how it's done.
Also, healers can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars, while still having enough healing skills to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation. So we have a precedent in ESO of a support role doing 5-10x of the damage a tank does. I just did some quests with a full healer gear setup (Earthgore+Kagrenac+SPC), and I basically 2-shot all non-elite overland mobs. How is that different from tanks doing the same? And in regards to PvP, as long as a healer has resources you can't kill him either, unless you gang up on him. Pretty much the same situation with tanks, except if you don't take out the healer, you won't be able to kill anyone in his group, while you can leave the tank until he is alone and just melt him down then.
So not only do we need more DPS for gameplay reasons, it would only be fair if we got it, considering what the other support role can do.
Once again spewing nonsense. Comparing "tank damage" (without specifying what you mean) of a levelling tank to a fully levelled healer while stating "can easily pull 20k DPS in full healing gear by just putting some damage skills on their bars...... to be prepared for any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation". Utter garbage, apples and oranges.
So get your tank to full level and gear, change some damage skills on their bars and run any vet DLC dungeon hard mode situation. How many times do you have to be told this??
As an example I play a tank only and without changing my skills I change gear ONLY and jump into Cyrodiil or do questing without much of an issue. I can tank DLC vet dungeons no problem. Oh, by the way, I don't play a DK.
Well, I don't know how leveling a healer is, I never leveled one, but if you're implying that tanks who are leveling do the same damage as healers doing the same, we obviously play a very different game. Having to collect a 2nd set of gear just to do overland content, regardless of level, is not a reasonable answer. How many times do you have to be told this?
On my templar when I switch to all dps gear (War Maiden + Innate Axiom) with a monster set with a damage proc (Shadowrend), I can just barely do 10k dps, and only as long as I have any magicka to burn and don't actually need to block. When I run with the setup I usually used for tanking before I gave up on tanking with a templar (Vampire Cloak + Bloodthorn's Touch), I end up with 5-6k dps, again only as long as I have magicka to burn and don't have to block, and both of the sets still have offensive bonuses. If I was to respec to stam and use 1hs skills, I doubt I would be getting even that, considering my experience with the DK. And that latter setup wasn't good enough for vFL hm either.
On a DK it looks even worse. The only way I can do overland content without dying of old age is if I equip medium armor and use dw/bow. On my warden healer I can do sustained 20k dps with Winter's Revenge, Deep Fissure, Blockade, Swarm and spamming Cliff Racer/Crushing Shock, without switching gear (Earthgore+SPC+Kagrenac). All while having a healing ulti on the destro staff bar.
Enough context for you? Or was that remark just there to show that you actually don't know what you're talking about?
Back when I made my DK, I tried leveling him as tank, and equipping a bow on the back bar and putting down dots didn't help much, because stamina was low and those skills did next to no damage.
Thank you for the context. Let's break it down.
You're >specced for HP< because you are tanking
using >magicka based dps gear< (with some stamina buffs and a non-dps proc??)
>wearing a dps staff< (because magicka right?)
>using magicka skills< (because staff right?)
and you're asking for "tanking dps buff" why?? Nothing you have in there is for tanking
A normal dungeon tank needs to equip a 1h weapon and a shield and a taunt, that's it. Not spend a whole month farming for a second set of gear like you're suggesting. So level using DPS skills/gear and have 2/4 items in the bag for dungeons. If he/she doesn't know the fights/mechanics then more needs to be invested in tanking to survive and by the same token the DPS who equally does NOT know the fights won't be able to tank while purely invested in DPS and is thus in no way "just as equal in survivability while DPSing" as the tank.
Once more you are asking for something contradictory. A group consists of 1 tank, 2 DPS, 1 healer for a reason. Someone needs to be able to take the big hits, someone needs to be able to heal the person who takes the big hits and someone who does the DPS. Each role invests and gives up accordingly. You're arguing that the tank gives up more than the other classes do and perhaps you are right, but that is not a tanking issue, that is a role balance issue. When a dedicated DPS can tank as much as a dedicated tank it doesn't necessarily mean tanks should now DPS as much in turn, it could mean the DPS should not be doing as much tanking.
And all of them have to be able to have an enjoyable experience while questing, regardless of what they do in groups, because that's literally the content that is supposed to be accessible for everyone. But you're fighting me on this, because you'd rather have tanks be the only ones to suffer or jump through hoops to be able to do it at the same pace as a lvl20 DD or healer. Why would you even try to justify something like that?Someone needs to be able to take the big hits, someone needs to be able to heal the person who takes the big hits and someone who does the DPS
SquareSausage wrote: »The beauty of this game compared to others we have the ability to play however we want. Use any weapons. Any skills from our class. Any world skills too. We are not stuck into a role permanently through game mechanics.
The possibilities on how you play are endless.
If someone decides to play one build for all content then that's up to them but if they feel they aren't performing as well as other builds because of their rigorous adherement to that one build then that is a player problem and not a role problem.
Essentially some may call it a L2P problem.
Healers:
Battleground changes still don’t recognize healer contributions (medals, achievements, their own “column” on the scoresheet, etc.). ZOS says they are aware of this and changes will come
I‘d like to highlight one pain point that hasn’t been mentioned so far. Correct me if I’m wrong.
While reading the [Class Reps] Meeting Notes - July 20 I noticed the following statement regarding healers:Healers:
Battleground changes still don’t recognize healer contributions (medals, achievements, their own “column” on the scoresheet, etc.). ZOS says they are aware of this and changes will come
I can’t but wonder why tanks are not being mentioned in the same way, considering they get rewarded with even less points than healers despite their quite valuable contribution to the team if played right.
I’d like to give one example from my personal experience over the last few weeks in Battlegrounds: During the Relic Capture game mode, a tank can be assigned as a defense, while the rest of the group heads out to capture the enemies’ relics. During that time, the tank can withstand dozen attempts to be robbed of his own relic by bashing and keeping foes busy, but in the end he’ll be rewarded with literally zero points, because he didn’t kill nor healed anyone. The tank in this case contributes a lot in order for his team to potentially win this game, so I don’t see any reason for him not to be rewarded in some way. For example by getting points for each bash of an enemy who tries to steal the relic.
A similar case is Cyrodiil: A tank standing within a keep breach or getting himself right between enemies and allies, taking the hits while allies revive each other or use the time to retreat is not being rewarded for his efforts. While both a DD who’s spamming Light Attacks and a healer who’s spamming Healing Springs will be rewarded with thousands of AP, a tank hardly gets rewarded with AP at all. Some sort of AP gain for tanks should be implemented, so all three roles in ESO are being rewarded equally in PVP, which is not the case currently. Many more players who like tanking might be enjoying PVP if that’d be the case.
This HODOR-kind of gameplay deserves to be recognized and rewarded, because that’s what a valuable tank in PVP stands for!
@Liofa, perhaps you can add it to the list for the next Class Rep meeting.
xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »PvP/Cyrodiil
- Theres no need to run a Tank in Cyrodiil. You barely get any AP for defending/debuffing/blocking enemy Players. I run a Minor/Major Defile Tank and I see that I help by debuffing people to the point where they cant heal themselves, but I dont benefit from it all. It feels like Im helping other players get AP instead of actually getting AP for helping.
Suggestions:
Make the "Guard" Skill give AP to the guarding Tank after absorbing enough damage or when the guarded Player gets a kill (but only if you absorbed damage before).
Give AP to everyone who debuffed an enemy Player just before their death.
Give AP to everyone who survives huge amounts of damage.
They make you feel rather useless, you know? Though paradoxically, they can also make you feel more useful. Those moments when the boss punches a damage dealer in the face and it almost kills them? Yeah, they realize real quick how nice it is to have a tank hold aggression off them in most other situations (and a healer... haha).
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Comparing a battle levelled level 1 with CP allocated into doing more damage and using a high direct damage ability to a tank isn't a very fair test.so i made a magsorc just the other day and i was blown away. my lvl 1 sorc can crit for almost 12k whereas the highest number ive even seen from my dk cp 400 tank is 5k.
and... leveling is actually fun... who knew that being able to kill stuff in a reasonable amount of time in a video game was good game design.
since i cant kill stuff (in a reasonable amount of time) on my tank when i solo quest (unless i respec/reslot/regear to a dps... which means i am no longer a tank) means that it is not fun and, in theory, bad game design is at fault.
the designers are asking us about our experiences tanking is so they can modify/augment their game design to make the game more fair/fun.
unless they are doing it for some other reason... in which case im in the wrong thread.
Tanks wanting to do damage overland can just switch gear.
The problem is that this is not really clear as a good practice to beginners who may be thinking tank = heavy berserker style fighter. Plus the hassle of switching skills and CP, and that it's a gold sink that newer players may not be able to afford yet.