Zenimax in regards to nightblades
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Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
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You don't know how the game works.What you just said is the equivalent of a stamplar using BOL or a stamsorc using Hardened Ward.Also you don't know how cloak work because the removed the ability to force a crit heal a patch or two ago.So lets me break down everything you just said.
Have you played ESO?Stamplar has Minor mending.Stamblade do not.Only healing bonus stamblades have is 3 healing receive from slotting leeching strikes.Stamblade can't use shadow disguise to force a crit heal anymore.So we just making crap up now sloting swallow soul on a stamblade shut you mouth.So I guess I can say a stamplar can slot a restro staff and heavy attack and get major and minor mending or slot BOL.I can say stupid stuff as well.
If they make dot still tick than they need to buff stamblade healing.As it is stamblade still have the worst healing out of the stamclasses.Give them minor mending or vitality and I say allow ticks to go through cloak.The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
"Worse healing out of all the other classes" - been on a stamplar? I could have sworn NB gets minor mending and another healing bonus for slotting a skill. Must be my imagination, right? Also must be my imagination that 15% dodge with heavy is possible, healing after killing a marked target, leeching strikes, minor vitality if you choose to put swallow soul on your bar, crit healing through stealth... What healing disadvantage are you talking about?
Do you play ESO my little fantasy online.
If your talking about minor mending from the new agony you dont get it from just sloting it you get it by damaging yourself and using ability that scales off of max magic spell damage and spell crit.If you using that as a argument that stamsorc can us hardened ward and stamplars can use BOL.
@Kadoin
So basically, you have no real argument against what I said and you want to buff stam NBs healing even more because you don't want to slot one to two siphoning skills, you don't want to use heavy on a class that can use it better than everyone else and still go on the offensive, and/or don't use cloak to get guaranteed crit heal, which by the way is a massive advantage over any other class. Sorry, but : NO.
1.You suggest slot offering which deals Oblivion damage to the user.Scales off of Max magica spell damage and only spell crit.For minor mending which would be offset by the oblivion damage being dealt to yourself.
1b.You suggest slotting Swallow soul as a stamblade. So next are you going to suggest for a stamplar who you said have the weakest healing out of all the stamclass to slot BOL.They don't have a burst heal I guess they can use that.
2.No one said I won't run heavy even running heavy stamblades still have less healing than other stam classes running heavy you know why they have extra boost to healing like mending.
3.You don't know how this ability works. Cloak doesn't work how you think it does.
Whatever you say. Again, excuses to demand a buff. What you don't understand is that those are examples of why what you said is outrageous. Just because you don't want to do something doesn't mean the option isn't there and you should get the buff to healing you desire, especially when it's completely unnecessary. The reason I'm bringing that up is because buffing healing the way you want will buff anyone who HAS taken those options and will make their builds even stronger.
"Stamplar has Minor mending" after using a skill that takes a slot, which apparently you don't want to have to do with NB. Don't forget stamplar also lacks much more compared to NB, but let's selectively look at a class because your argument has next to no merit otherwise. That makes a lot of sense to me. Hold on, let me put my brain back in and try to make sense of it again. Damn, now that my brains back in my head its no longer making sense.
"What you just said is the equivalent of a stamplar using BOL or a stamsorc using Hardened Ward," except for the fact that both don't have the ability to get 15% dodge in heavy armor, heal on light attack with leeching strikes and get access to heavy armor passives to increase healing? You can argue crit surge, but if you ask me leeching is superior because it doesn't require crits and you get stam back. Let's not even get into the execute that neither DK, stam sorc, nor stamplar have...wouldn't want leave the vacuum now would we?
Don't forget you can always take the other cloak that heals HP% and use invisibility pots or "stealth" like everyone else if healing is that big a problem. But that would make too much sense. With rally, vigor, and dark cloak you'd have to be an idiot that can't roll to die as an NB, just that you won't be cloaking on demand. But I understand, it's much better to demand buffs instead if tradeoffs on a class that is already one of the easiest in PvP.
You still have failed to show exactly how stam NBs have the "weakest healing in the game."0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Cloak is in a great place right now and doesnt need to be fixed, as I keep saying nightblade are supposed to be hard and elusive to catch and you want to take the theme of the class and ruin it you people just need to learn how to play. Nightblade are suppose to be hard to catch and here Is another thread wanting to remove skill and satisfaction from killing a skillful player who knows how to utilise cloak properly. So many things and mechanics break cloak its laughable and you want to make it EASIER are you for real.
Nothing more than a red herring argument. Nightblades can do fine without being able to spam cloak.
Oh yeah, they just have to slot cancer tank sets & bleeds and play in the same boring way as every other stam class.
This right here is the real issue. If every class would be in a good place with unique feel, then there would be a lot less complains about nbs and magsorcs
That's because medium armor is brutal in PvP. As others have mentioned the reason why people say Nightblades can get away with medium is solely due to cloak. If ZOS would increase the viability of medium then the toxic tanks we see in PvP would be less necessary.2 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just use unavoidable CC, burst and AoE rofl. If your group can't do that you got outplayed. If you are solo, then deal with not being able to finish a duel in reasonable time, it's been this way since years now, not a specific nb thing nor a reason to nerf nbs.pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...
Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.
Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).
I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.
Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.
In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).
Lets be realistic "breaking the cloak" is not one sided thing that can be looked at only as doom of nb and the moment after which he's definietly dead. This is the issue with cloak that makes that ability sometimes extremly strong and sometimes underpowered that it hugely depends oh how that cloak was broken and what happened after. There are builds that can break cloak pretty effectively but cant do anything with revealed stamblade since he'll avoid most of their dmg while keeping dmg pressure on them. It's not like Shadow Image ability cant help when cloak fails. Huge benefit that stamblade have over magblade is that even after cloak is broken he can still avoid lot of dmg by roll dodging since he can build up very high stamina recovery because minor berserk and 20% dmg debuff from incap compensate max stamina/wep dmg he sacrifices to get more stam regen. Stamblade can also easily remove snares without sacrificong any parts of his build for that and can get major expedition as a passive which extremly boost both his cloaking and escaping possibilities. All of that without making any special sacrifices , stamblade is just getting it passively. When You have build that can dissapear from fight on demand that build should not have extreme mobility or extreme burst dmg given passively.
Dodge roll is strong, but if you're forced into spamming it you run out of stamina just like you would on any other stam class. Outside stealth stamblade is actually significantly weaker defensively than other classes, DKs/Sorcs have far better mitigation and heals, Warden has Shimmering Shield and so on.
The only thing stamblade really has going for it is cloak and a good spammable.
But back to the topic of dodge roll, there are actually very strong counters to that these days in form of Bombard/Acid Spray, Steel Tornado, DoTs etc - some of those like Bombard/Acid Spray & Steel Tornado actually counter cloak as well.Other stamina classes have class defining defenses. Problem is that on other classes (maybe except stamden) that defenses comes with cost and are not creating extremly stong connections with base game mechanics that basicly makes that class defining ability no brainer in many scenarios and doesnt require sacrifices from user to be very effective.
Yes, other classes need stronger class defenses so they can stop crutching on broken tank sets & bleeds and play other playstyles successfully, just like NB can. I have 4 other stamina characters I'd love to make unique, fun builds for.
Stam DK might be in that spot next patch as wings will be really strong for mobility/mitigation.Nightblade have additional features for cloak. Auto crit from cloak , fact his spammable abilites stun from cloak and set enemy off ballance , more wep/spell dmg in cloak are just few of benefits other then just dissapearing from fight on demand that nightblade have. There are games where the only benefit from that playstyle is just dissapearing and it have cooldown so making stealth playstyle with spammable vanishing ability without any penalties while in it and with additional benefits for use where counters are at best mediocre and situational plus most of the time easy to avoid (even easier after new update)sounds pretty strong. Adding infinite roll dodge spam and teleporting to shade on top of it is just sometimes too much.
There is one skill that gains special effects when attacking from stealth. One.
That and some passive that gives 200 weapon damage to my next light/heavy attack (as that is the first thing to land from stealth) doesn't really cut it.
There might be other games where the only benefit of stealth is the invisibility, but these games have one thing in common: I don't play them and I have no desire to ever play them.
There are good examples of good stealth systems, such as WoW (entire skill bar dedicated to stealth gameplay) or Blade & Soul (better, "camouflage" style stealth, lots of stealth specific skills etc), Thief in GW2 gets a lot of stealth specific abilities and so on.Well guess which class have acces to mark ? It's pretty obvious mark was created just to make nb vs nb fights even possible to exist because otherwise it would be just cloak/dodge fest between just scratching one another. As for Sload goes fact that it reveals from cloak currently is problematic but I wouldnt call iot game breaking until multiple Sload's stack. You still have shade and in proper LoS scenario You'll survive and if You are not in proper LoS scenario well You choosed fight where You are in disadventage so death shouldnt be something supprising.
NB vs NB fights are 100% possible without Piercing Mark (though I do run it as well, mostly for Major Fracture).
I'd say most of my BG kills are from spamming Bombard at NBs trying to dodge or cloak.
On a melee stamblade I just slot either det pots (I always have them hotkeyed) or alternatively Steel Tornado.
It isn't necessarily a cloak/dodge fest if you know how to build a good stamblade.
Also I think you highly overestimate NB survivability.
In this patch I've died many times to just one DoT+Sload outdamaging my Vigor and then 2-3 Skoria procs falling on me while I desperately spend the last of my stamina spamming dodge roll to avoid evaporating, unable to do anything about the damage ticking on me.
The only stamblades who don't have a problem with Sload are tank builds with Troll Kings, Impregnable & whatnot.
Are You even reading what I posted. The main issue with stamblade is that he can get away free with dodge roll penalties because he can wait it in cloak. Other stamnina classes when spamming dodge roll brainlesly are out of stamina after few dodges and then they have to come up with some other ways of defense while still taking damage. Stamblade can spam serie of 5 roll dodges in a row then use vigor go into cloak , heal up without taking any dmg and wait until the dodge roll penatly will be over when in the meantime restoring stamina easily because fact he's not taking dmg also allows him to not spend stamina. He restores stamina heals up and comes back to fight with high health and stamina level. All of that passively with half brained defensive mechanic. Ofc it's not how it always looks like buty it looks like that too many times to not see how problematic that part of stamblade playstyle is. Stamblade is weaker then other classes when he is without cloak ? This is why no cloak stamblades are wrecking people in duels left and right ? Properly geared stamblade can create enough damage pressure to push others into defense so he wont have to defend much.
Umm the only good thing stamblade have is cloak and supprise attack ? How about incap the best single target ultimate , or ambush the best gap closer , or relentess focus the best class buff and burst ability , or fear one of the best class hard CC's ?
Seriously argument about AoE's ? With major expedition and roll dodge You can get away from steel tornado range faster then before 2nd or 3rd cast of it will happen even if the enemie is spamming it while chasing You. Acid spray is even easier to avoid especially when you have shade. This types of damage You've mentioned have very low chance to do anything to stamblade if used only by one player and there is no other attackers around. If You think that this types of damage are issue then You basicly thing that anything that can touch stamblade is issue and there should be no dmg type that can deal damage to him. There always have to be damage type that ignores some strong defensive yet nightblades are always coming up with the argument that there are some dmg that can occasionaly counter them...
Here it comes... Classic argument that if stamblade is strong and other stam builds are not so others needs buff just dont touch stamblade.
As for stam DK we'll see but I wouldnt have high hopes.
Actually most of physical dmg abilities when used from stealth applies stun so I would say there is more then one.
Fact that You dont want to play games that doesnt fit You idea of stealth playstyle doesnt looks very objective.
Yes I agree other games have differently looking stealth playstyles but You forget to mention about one thing that all of them have also strong drawbacks to that playsatyles like inability to use it in combat , cooldowns , reduced healing or recovery while in it etc. ESO have no drawback builded into that playstyle at all and kinda mediocre counters that most of the time requires sacrifices from user to be effective so basicly You need to cripple Yourself just to reveal nightblade and then fight him while crippled.
Nb vs nb fight without marks is possible only if both of those nightblades wants to fight. If 1 of them will say "screw it I wont win" then fight is over with a tie.
Fact that nightblade is most played class which means there is also the most of bad players playing it which means lot of easy kills doesnt mean class is weak and that AoE's are reall hardcounters especially against people who knows what to do , and You dont have to be very good at game to know what to do.
I know it's not needed to cloak/dodge spam on stamblade however I pointed out that when someone wants he can make it extremly strong and potent defense while beeing basicly childlishly easy to use. All of that on build that have really strong and also easy to use burst.
I think I dont overestomate anything I know stamblade isnt god that will survive everything and there are encounters he'll find difficult to survive however I am just pointing out that there is 1 particular scenario where his defense becomes very strong and very easy and that type of defense is effective agaisnt too many builds to not be looked at.
I agree that Sload is stupid set. I dont want nightblade to have cloak destroyed or stealthy playstyle to be removed. I just want it to be more skill based and for it to have the middle ground between situations when it's underperforming and situations where it's clearly too strong. Detection potions and Sload are getting nerfed which is buff for cloak so it's time to look at situations where stamblade playstyle can be way too strong. I wouldnt mind to see magblades having much better use of cloak then stamblades which currently is not happening.
You say that you don't want to destroy the class while you want Cloak and dodge to share the cost increase on doderoll. Stam builds need to die while your magsorc is allowed to stack shields and mines for all of eternity. Got it.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.6 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Just use unavoidable CC, burst and AoE rofl. If your group can't do that you got outplayed. If you are solo, then deal with not being able to finish a duel in reasonable time, it's been this way since years now, not a specific nb thing nor a reason to nerf nbs.pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...
Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.
Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).
I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.
Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.
In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).
Lets be realistic "breaking the cloak" is not one sided thing that can be looked at only as doom of nb and the moment after which he's definietly dead. This is the issue with cloak that makes that ability sometimes extremly strong and sometimes underpowered that it hugely depends oh how that cloak was broken and what happened after. There are builds that can break cloak pretty effectively but cant do anything with revealed stamblade since he'll avoid most of their dmg while keeping dmg pressure on them. It's not like Shadow Image ability cant help when cloak fails. Huge benefit that stamblade have over magblade is that even after cloak is broken he can still avoid lot of dmg by roll dodging since he can build up very high stamina recovery because minor berserk and 20% dmg debuff from incap compensate max stamina/wep dmg he sacrifices to get more stam regen. Stamblade can also easily remove snares without sacrificong any parts of his build for that and can get major expedition as a passive which extremly boost both his cloaking and escaping possibilities. All of that without making any special sacrifices , stamblade is just getting it passively. When You have build that can dissapear from fight on demand that build should not have extreme mobility or extreme burst dmg given passively.
Dodge roll is strong, but if you're forced into spamming it you run out of stamina just like you would on any other stam class. Outside stealth stamblade is actually significantly weaker defensively than other classes, DKs/Sorcs have far better mitigation and heals, Warden has Shimmering Shield and so on.
The only thing stamblade really has going for it is cloak and a good spammable.
But back to the topic of dodge roll, there are actually very strong counters to that these days in form of Bombard/Acid Spray, Steel Tornado, DoTs etc - some of those like Bombard/Acid Spray & Steel Tornado actually counter cloak as well.Other stamina classes have class defining defenses. Problem is that on other classes (maybe except stamden) that defenses comes with cost and are not creating extremly stong connections with base game mechanics that basicly makes that class defining ability no brainer in many scenarios and doesnt require sacrifices from user to be very effective.
Yes, other classes need stronger class defenses so they can stop crutching on broken tank sets & bleeds and play other playstyles successfully, just like NB can. I have 4 other stamina characters I'd love to make unique, fun builds for.
Stam DK might be in that spot next patch as wings will be really strong for mobility/mitigation.Nightblade have additional features for cloak. Auto crit from cloak , fact his spammable abilites stun from cloak and set enemy off ballance , more wep/spell dmg in cloak are just few of benefits other then just dissapearing from fight on demand that nightblade have. There are games where the only benefit from that playstyle is just dissapearing and it have cooldown so making stealth playstyle with spammable vanishing ability without any penalties while in it and with additional benefits for use where counters are at best mediocre and situational plus most of the time easy to avoid (even easier after new update)sounds pretty strong. Adding infinite roll dodge spam and teleporting to shade on top of it is just sometimes too much.
There is one skill that gains special effects when attacking from stealth. One.
That and some passive that gives 200 weapon damage to my next light/heavy attack (as that is the first thing to land from stealth) doesn't really cut it.
There might be other games where the only benefit of stealth is the invisibility, but these games have one thing in common: I don't play them and I have no desire to ever play them.
There are good examples of good stealth systems, such as WoW (entire skill bar dedicated to stealth gameplay) or Blade & Soul (better, "camouflage" style stealth, lots of stealth specific skills etc), Thief in GW2 gets a lot of stealth specific abilities and so on.Well guess which class have acces to mark ? It's pretty obvious mark was created just to make nb vs nb fights even possible to exist because otherwise it would be just cloak/dodge fest between just scratching one another. As for Sload goes fact that it reveals from cloak currently is problematic but I wouldnt call iot game breaking until multiple Sload's stack. You still have shade and in proper LoS scenario You'll survive and if You are not in proper LoS scenario well You choosed fight where You are in disadventage so death shouldnt be something supprising.
NB vs NB fights are 100% possible without Piercing Mark (though I do run it as well, mostly for Major Fracture).
I'd say most of my BG kills are from spamming Bombard at NBs trying to dodge or cloak.
On a melee stamblade I just slot either det pots (I always have them hotkeyed) or alternatively Steel Tornado.
It isn't necessarily a cloak/dodge fest if you know how to build a good stamblade.
Also I think you highly overestimate NB survivability.
In this patch I've died many times to just one DoT+Sload outdamaging my Vigor and then 2-3 Skoria procs falling on me while I desperately spend the last of my stamina spamming dodge roll to avoid evaporating, unable to do anything about the damage ticking on me.
The only stamblades who don't have a problem with Sload are tank builds with Troll Kings, Impregnable & whatnot.
Are You even reading what I posted. The main issue with stamblade is that he can get away free with dodge roll penalties because he can wait it in cloak. Other stamnina classes when spamming dodge roll brainlesly are out of stamina after few dodges and then they have to come up with some other ways of defense while still taking damage. Stamblade can spam serie of 5 roll dodges in a row then use vigor go into cloak , heal up without taking any dmg and wait until the dodge roll penatly will be over when in the meantime restoring stamina easily because fact he's not taking dmg also allows him to not spend stamina. He restores stamina heals up and comes back to fight with high health and stamina level. All of that passively with half brained defensive mechanic. Ofc it's not how it always looks like buty it looks like that too many times to not see how problematic that part of stamblade playstyle is. Stamblade is weaker then other classes when he is without cloak ? This is why no cloak stamblades are wrecking people in duels left and right ? Properly geared stamblade can create enough damage pressure to push others into defense so he wont have to defend much.
Umm the only good thing stamblade have is cloak and supprise attack ? How about incap the best single target ultimate , or ambush the best gap closer , or relentess focus the best class buff and burst ability , or fear one of the best class hard CC's ?
Seriously argument about AoE's ? With major expedition and roll dodge You can get away from steel tornado range faster then before 2nd or 3rd cast of it will happen even if the enemie is spamming it while chasing You. Acid spray is even easier to avoid especially when you have shade. This types of damage You've mentioned have very low chance to do anything to stamblade if used only by one player and there is no other attackers around. If You think that this types of damage are issue then You basicly thing that anything that can touch stamblade is issue and there should be no dmg type that can deal damage to him. There always have to be damage type that ignores some strong defensive yet nightblades are always coming up with the argument that there are some dmg that can occasionaly counter them...
Here it comes... Classic argument that if stamblade is strong and other stam builds are not so others needs buff just dont touch stamblade.
As for stam DK we'll see but I wouldnt have high hopes.
Actually most of physical dmg abilities when used from stealth applies stun so I would say there is more then one.
Fact that You dont want to play games that doesnt fit You idea of stealth playstyle doesnt looks very objective.
Yes I agree other games have differently looking stealth playstyles but You forget to mention about one thing that all of them have also strong drawbacks to that playsatyles like inability to use it in combat , cooldowns , reduced healing or recovery while in it etc. ESO have no drawback builded into that playstyle at all and kinda mediocre counters that most of the time requires sacrifices from user to be effective so basicly You need to cripple Yourself just to reveal nightblade and then fight him while crippled.
Nb vs nb fight without marks is possible only if both of those nightblades wants to fight. If 1 of them will say "screw it I wont win" then fight is over with a tie.
Fact that nightblade is most played class which means there is also the most of bad players playing it which means lot of easy kills doesnt mean class is weak and that AoE's are reall hardcounters especially against people who knows what to do , and You dont have to be very good at game to know what to do.
I know it's not needed to cloak/dodge spam on stamblade however I pointed out that when someone wants he can make it extremly strong and potent defense while beeing basicly childlishly easy to use. All of that on build that have really strong and also easy to use burst.
I think I dont overestomate anything I know stamblade isnt god that will survive everything and there are encounters he'll find difficult to survive however I am just pointing out that there is 1 particular scenario where his defense becomes very strong and very easy and that type of defense is effective agaisnt too many builds to not be looked at.
I agree that Sload is stupid set. I dont want nightblade to have cloak destroyed or stealthy playstyle to be removed. I just want it to be more skill based and for it to have the middle ground between situations when it's underperforming and situations where it's clearly too strong. Detection potions and Sload are getting nerfed which is buff for cloak so it's time to look at situations where stamblade playstyle can be way too strong. I wouldnt mind to see magblades having much better use of cloak then stamblades which currently is not happening.
You say that you don't want to destroy the class while you want Cloak and dodge to share the cost increase on doderoll. Stam builds need to die while your magsorc is allowed to stack shields and mines for all of eternity. Got it.
If only people would understand what they read this forum would be much more constructive...
I never mentioned I want cloak and dodge to share cost increase , that is purely Your assumption taken out of nowhere. What I said is that currently connection of dodge roll and cloak is too strong and gives too much. As for me wanting buffs for "my magsorc" that is kinda hilarious statement since I play every build in PvP more or less , magsorc is not my main and I also see few things that could be nerfed on magsorc.
If You dont understand what You read then atleast dont make incorrect assumptions.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Holy... wall of text.
Let me address a couple of points I feel are worth bringing up, as I don't have time to go through them all:pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...
Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.
Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).
I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.
Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.
In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).
Lets be realistic "breaking the cloak" is not one sided thing that can be looked at only as doom of nb and the moment after which he's definietly dead. This is the issue with cloak that makes that ability sometimes extremly strong and sometimes underpowered that it hugely depends oh how that cloak was broken and what happened after. There are builds that can break cloak pretty effectively but cant do anything with revealed stamblade since he'll avoid most of their dmg while keeping dmg pressure on them. It's not like Shadow Image ability cant help when cloak fails. Huge benefit that stamblade have over magblade is that even after cloak is broken he can still avoid lot of dmg by roll dodging since he can build up very high stamina recovery because minor berserk and 20% dmg debuff from incap compensate max stamina/wep dmg he sacrifices to get more stam regen. Stamblade can also easily remove snares without sacrificong any parts of his build for that and can get major expedition as a passive which extremly boost both his cloaking and escaping possibilities. All of that without making any special sacrifices , stamblade is just getting it passively. When You have build that can dissapear from fight on demand that build should not have extreme mobility or extreme burst dmg given passively.
Dodge roll is strong, but if you're forced into spamming it you run out of stamina just like you would on any other stam class. Outside stealth stamblade is actually significantly weaker defensively than other classes, DKs/Sorcs have far better mitigation and heals, Warden has Shimmering Shield and so on.
The only thing stamblade really has going for it is cloak and a good spammable.
But back to the topic of dodge roll, there are actually very strong counters to that these days in form of Bombard/Acid Spray, Steel Tornado, DoTs etc - some of those like Bombard/Acid Spray & Steel Tornado actually counter cloak as well.Other stamina classes have class defining defenses. Problem is that on other classes (maybe except stamden) that defenses comes with cost and are not creating extremly stong connections with base game mechanics that basicly makes that class defining ability no brainer in many scenarios and doesnt require sacrifices from user to be very effective.
Yes, other classes need stronger class defenses so they can stop crutching on broken tank sets & bleeds and play other playstyles successfully, just like NB can. I have 4 other stamina characters I'd love to make unique, fun builds for.
Stam DK might be in that spot next patch as wings will be really strong for mobility/mitigation.Nightblade have additional features for cloak. Auto crit from cloak , fact his spammable abilites stun from cloak and set enemy off ballance , more wep/spell dmg in cloak are just few of benefits other then just dissapearing from fight on demand that nightblade have. There are games where the only benefit from that playstyle is just dissapearing and it have cooldown so making stealth playstyle with spammable vanishing ability without any penalties while in it and with additional benefits for use where counters are at best mediocre and situational plus most of the time easy to avoid (even easier after new update)sounds pretty strong. Adding infinite roll dodge spam and teleporting to shade on top of it is just sometimes too much.
There is one skill that gains special effects when attacking from stealth. One.
That and some passive that gives 200 weapon damage to my next light/heavy attack (as that is the first thing to land from stealth) doesn't really cut it.
There might be other games where the only benefit of stealth is the invisibility, but these games have one thing in common: I don't play them and I have no desire to ever play them.
There are good examples of good stealth systems, such as WoW (entire skill bar dedicated to stealth gameplay) or Blade & Soul (better, "camouflage" style stealth, lots of stealth specific skills etc), Thief in GW2 gets a lot of stealth specific abilities and so on.Well guess which class have acces to mark ? It's pretty obvious mark was created just to make nb vs nb fights even possible to exist because otherwise it would be just cloak/dodge fest between just scratching one another. As for Sload goes fact that it reveals from cloak currently is problematic but I wouldnt call iot game breaking until multiple Sload's stack. You still have shade and in proper LoS scenario You'll survive and if You are not in proper LoS scenario well You choosed fight where You are in disadventage so death shouldnt be something supprising.
NB vs NB fights are 100% possible without Piercing Mark (though I do run it as well, mostly for Major Fracture).
I'd say most of my BG kills are from spamming Bombard at NBs trying to dodge or cloak.
On a melee stamblade I just slot either det pots (I always have them hotkeyed) or alternatively Steel Tornado.
It isn't necessarily a cloak/dodge fest if you know how to build a good stamblade.
Also I think you highly overestimate NB survivability.
In this patch I've died many times to just one DoT+Sload outdamaging my Vigor and then 2-3 Skoria procs falling on me while I desperately spend the last of my stamina spamming dodge roll to avoid evaporating, unable to do anything about the damage ticking on me.
The only stamblades who don't have a problem with Sload are tank builds with Troll Kings, Impregnable & whatnot.
Are You even reading what I posted. The main issue with stamblade is that he can get away free with dodge roll penalties because he can wait it in cloak. Other stamnina classes when spamming dodge roll brainlesly are out of stamina after few dodges and then they have to come up with some other ways of defense while still taking damage. Stamblade can spam serie of 5 roll dodges in a row then use vigor go into cloak , heal up without taking any dmg and wait until the dodge roll penatly will be over when in the meantime restoring stamina easily because fact he's not taking dmg also allows him to not spend stamina. He restores stamina heals up and comes back to fight with high health and stamina level. All of that passively with half brained defensive mechanic. Ofc it's not how it always looks like buty it looks like that too many times to not see how problematic that part of stamblade playstyle is. Stamblade is weaker then other classes when he is without cloak ? This is why no cloak stamblades are wrecking people in duels left and right ? Properly geared stamblade can create enough damage pressure to push others into defense so he wont have to defend much.
I read what you posted. What I'm referring to is a scenario where you're countering a stamblade's cloak with hardcounter (Piercing Mark/det pot) or AoE, preventing them from utilizing it to reset the dodge roll cost modifier.
In those scenarios, the visible NB is much more vulnerable than other classes with better mitigation/healing passives & skills.
The reason why no cloak stamblade works in duels largely has to do with their offensive capability, Incap in particular. More on that next...Umm the only good thing stamblade have is cloak and supprise attack ? How about incap the best single target ultimate , or ambush the best gap closer , or relentess focus the best class buff and burst ability , or fear one of the best class hard CC's ?
Incap got deservedly tuned down on PTS and now requires much, much more skill to utilize effectively. In terms of power level it is now on par with DBOS.
Ambush isn't the best gap closer, it's not even a good one. It used to be.
Damage has been nerfed repeatedly patch after patch, Incap doesn't get Empowered anymore by it & they removed the best part of the skill (cloak->ambush+SA combo) in Summerset by making it break cloak when cast.
Best gap closer in the game (by a wide margin) is Empowering Chains.
As for Fear... there's 3 class hard CCs in the game and Fear is the worst of them.
Rune Cage>Fossilize>Fear.
I agree on Relentless Focus though.Yes I agree other games have differently looking stealth playstyles but You forget to mention about one thing that all of them have also strong drawbacks to that playsatyles like inability to use it in combat , cooldowns , reduced healing or recovery while in it etc. ESO have no drawback builded into that playstyle at all and kinda mediocre counters that most of the time requires sacrifices from user to be effective so basicly You need to cripple Yourself just to reveal nightblade and then fight him while crippled.
Nb vs nb fight without marks is possible only if both of those nightblades wants to fight. If 1 of them will say "screw it I wont win" then fight is over with a tie.
You don't need to cripple yourself to reveal a nightblade, not on most classes.
Stam sorc for example can keep Hurricane up on top of a stamblade to prevent them from cloaking. Spin2win with Steel Tornado just to be extra safe...
On my bowblade I can spam Bombard (10k tooltip with Hawk Eye stacks) on another stamblade and there's not much they can do about it (they can't dodge it and they can't cloak it).
There's very slim chances they can escape as they're snared as well by the Bombard & I can easily keep up with them on a 7 medium character. The only way they can fight this build is by going on the offense, being in melee range & sidestepping the Bombards so they miss (the cone is narrow & much easier to avoid near the caster).
Other stamblades are by far the easiest opponents to kill for me right now and I'm not saying this to make a point about them being weak or anything, that's just how it is for my build. I know there are other builds that struggle against them.I agree that Sload is stupid set. I dont want nightblade to have cloak destroyed or stealthy playstyle to be removed. I just want it to be more skill based and for it to have the middle ground between situations when it's underperforming and situations where it's clearly too strong. Detection potions and Sload are getting nerfed which is buff for cloak so it's time to look at situations where stamblade playstyle can be way too strong. I wouldnt mind to see magblades having much better use of cloak then stamblades which currently is not happening.
Well, I can agree with that.
Stealth should be a lot more skill based than what it currently is. The hardcounters to it as well.
Det pot change certainly helps in some ways (i.e. I can avoid engaging people with det pot up & can avoid wasting magicka on cloaks when I know someone has it up), but it's still a hardcounter to stealth. Same with Piercing Mark.
Detect pots or AoEs are not hardcounters for cloak used on stamblade. Softcounters at best. Mobility and lot of other tools stambblade have like shade , fear etc allows still for pretty easy dealing with someone who used detect potion or someone who's spamming AoE. the only situation when it can be an issue is when You're outnumbered but every build should have issue then. If You choosed proper areafor fight You can still do well agaisnt multiple opponents even if they have AoE spammers or detect pot users and if You didnt You'll died because of mistakes You've made which sounds fair but somehow many stamblades thinks it's unfair. As for mark goes yes it's hardcounter for cloak but like I mentioned earlier it's nightblade skill so we end up with nightblade having hardcounter on other nigthblade so at the end they'll just both fight without cloak so that doesnt change much if there is not a group attacking one target but as I've mentioned earlier nightblades are not ment to be god they are ment to die also when hardcountered and the problem is many times they dont.
If You think that incap loosing guaranteed stun is a nerf that brings this ulti in line with others You're very mistaken. First of all nightblades most of the time plays with lower health builds then others so it's highly possible You'l still get stun in manmy scenarios simple because same dmg dealt to Your health will take more percentage of it then to enemies health. Major defile , high damage and 20% dmg increase are still putting this ultimate way ahead the others when it comes to single target fights. Also I really like how You shuffle arguments between current and after update stages of the game depends which one matches Your theories more.
Ambush is still one of the best gap closers. Still have no minimal range and when change to empower may not be the best it's still some buff to dmg. On paper empowering chain may look better but in reality this ability is still clunky and wierd sometimes. Ambush feel much more responsive. You'll definietly see higher percentage of stamblades using ambush then mag dk's using empowering chain.
As for fear yes I know it's one of three best gap closers that's why i said one of the best. When it's stunning potential may be covered sometimes by others lets not forget it's not the only thing it's doing. It applies very effective slow and minor maim plus this is the only stun between the ones You've mentioned that doesnt require targeting and is AoE which enables much higher defensive features then rune cage or fossilize would give which people many times forget , that fear is partially defensive skill and allows escaping stamblade to just pop the fear and cloak to effectively run away from enemies since they'll have to break free and deal with snare before continuuing the chase. I wont even mention about how annoying breaking free from this ability sometimes can be.
Yes hurricane is counter for cloak but shade is counter for hurricane and just hurricane+steel tornado spam wont do much to stamblade. Also giving 1 weak example of build that have some natural mediocre counter is not disproving my point that most of the builds will have to cripple themselves to effectively reveal nb because this is what's happening right now outside of zergs.
That excatly proves the point that most of stamblades are newbies that have no idea what to do. If single target is just spamming bombard and they're dying from it it's just them beeing bad. There si so many scenarios I could come up with how to avoid bombard spammer it would take too much space in this already long post.
Detect potions is not hardcounter to stealth since they lowered duration of it. It's mediocre counter that requires someone to cripple himself by not using other usefull potion just to have 15 second chance once every 45 seconbds to fight with nightblade.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Detect pots or AoEs are not hardcounters for cloak used on stamblade. Softcounters at best. Mobility and lot of other tools stambblade have like shade , fear etc allows still for pretty easy dealing with someone who used detect potion or someone who's spamming AoE. the only situation when it can be an issue is when You're outnumbered but every build should have issue then. If You choosed proper areafor fight You can still do well agaisnt multiple opponents even if they have AoE spammers or detect pot users and if You didnt You'll died because of mistakes You've made which sounds fair but somehow many stamblades thinks it's unfair. As for mark goes yes it's hardcounter for cloak but like I mentioned earlier it's nightblade skill so we end up with nightblade having hardcounter on other nigthblade so at the end they'll just both fight without cloak so that doesnt change much if there is not a group attacking one target but as I've mentioned earlier nightblades are not ment to be god they are ment to die also when hardcountered and the problem is many times they dont.
AoEs aren't, you're right - they can be reasonably played around by kiting. Det pot though? It's a 20m detection radius - that's a hardcounter vs any melee stamblade's cloak (you can argue bow builds aren't fully countered by it - that's ok).
Yes, you can still use skills like Shadow Image to cloak, but that says more about the power of Shadow Image (and the cheesy LoS kiting) than Cloak.
One could just as well use Shadow Image, port to the other freaking side of the map & sprint or sneak away. It has nothing to do with cloak.If You think that incap loosing guaranteed stun is a nerf that brings this ulti in line with others You're very mistaken. First of all nightblades most of the time plays with lower health builds then others so it's highly possible You'l still get stun in manmy scenarios simple because same dmg dealt to Your health will take more percentage of it then to enemies health. Major defile , high damage and 20% dmg increase are still putting this ultimate way ahead the others when it comes to single target fights. Also I really like how You shuffle arguments between current and after update stages of the game depends which one matches Your theories more.
You are mistaken.
Incap on PTS works like it used to years ago when it only stunned if you were below target's health percentage. This means it doesn't matter if you have 20k/20k health & target has 30k/30k, you're both at 100% and no stun occurs.
If you open up on a target you usually lead with a light attack weave or debuff people with Surprise Attack first, this means you're almost always above target's health percentage.
This means people can't just Incap->Relentless and get easy kills on pugs - they have to weave in additional stun as well (i.e. Fear or Cloak->SA).
It also means some NB who isn't being focused can't just jump into a fight and instantly stun+defile+burst you while you're fighting someone else.Ambush is still one of the best gap closers. Still have no minimal range and when change to empower may not be the best it's still some buff to dmg. On paper empowering chain may look better but in reality this ability is still clunky and wierd sometimes. Ambush feel much more responsive. You'll definietly see higher percentage of stamblades using ambush then mag dk's using empowering chain.
The reason you see more NBs using Ambush than mDKs using Empowering Chains is simple: most people don't know how to build their characters.
I stuck with Ambush for a looong time on my melee stamblade (I have two NBs, one bow build and one melee) - it was on my bar continuously from 2014-Summerset mainly for one reason: stealth mobility.
But as they removed the cloak->ambush interaction in Summerset, it really is no longer worth using. You're better off closing distances in cloak than using a gap closer that makes you visible (and thus vulnerable).
The only place where I'd see Ambush worth slotting is a NB build that doesn't use cloak at all and needs some form of gap closer to prevent being kited.
And even so, you'd be better off slotting Crit Rush (200 stam cheaper+more burst damage) or Stampede (200 stam cheaper+more utility).As for fear yes I know it's one of three best gap closers that's why i said one of the best. When it's stunning potential may be covered sometimes by others lets not forget it's not the only thing it's doing. It applies very effective slow and minor maim plus this is the only stun between the ones You've mentioned that doesnt require targeting and is AoE which enables much higher defensive features then rune cage or fossilize would give which people many times forget , that fear is partially defensive skill and allows escaping stamblade to just pop the fear and cloak to effectively run away from enemies since they'll have to break free and deal with snare before continuuing the chase. I wont even mention about how annoying breaking free from this ability sometimes can be.
And yet it's still the worst CC of the three hard CCs in this game. I don't even slot it on stamblade because quite frankly I rather just Cloak->Heavy+SA Stun people for a ton of burst than waste a GCD draining someone's stamina.
The snare is also nerfed to 2 seconds on PTS btw.Yes hurricane is counter for cloak but shade is counter for hurricane and just hurricane+steel tornado spam wont do much to stamblade. Also giving 1 weak example of build that have some natural mediocre counter is not disproving my point that most of the builds will have to cripple themselves to effectively reveal nb because this is what's happening right now outside of zergs.
That excatly proves the point that most of stamblades are newbies that have no idea what to do. If single target is just spamming bombard and they're dying from it it's just them beeing bad. There si so many scenarios I could come up with how to avoid bombard spammer it would take too much space in this already long post.
Yes, you do seem to have a tendency of making pretty long posts (ok, ok "hi pot, meet kettle" - I know).
Your theory seems to be that if dodge roll/cloak spamming stamblades die to abilities that counter them, they're bad.
But what if it's the other way around, that people who can't kill stamblades even with countering abilities slotted are the ones who are bad?
Well, it doesn't matter either way - it sounds to me like that part of the game is balanced when a good NB can survive bad players and a good player can kill bad NBs.Detect potions is not hardcounter to stealth since they lowered duration of it. It's mediocre counter that requires someone to cripple himself by not using other usefull potion just to have 15 second chance once every 45 seconbds to fight with nightblade.
15 seconds is more than enough to either:- Run a medium stamblade out of stamina.
- Run a medium stamblade out of health.
You should play some BGs on a stamblade to get an idea how hard sustain/survival can be (though atm it's a bit blown out of proportion due to Sload, which is getting patched).Edited by DDuke on July 12, 2018 3:28PM0 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Overpowered class don't you main a magsorc lmaooooooooooooooooooo
That's just it. usmguy1234 plays magicka sorc, or I assume he does since he defends rune cage and shield stacking with every fiber of his being.
I suspect the only reason he's bringing this up is because nightblades are the class that gives sorcs the most trouble.Edited by Kel on July 12, 2018 3:30PM2 -
rimmidimdim✭✭✭Some people in here don't understand stamblades possible healing ability. I'll make this quick. Slot swallow soul and the soul siphon ultimate. That's 14% more healing. That's not bad, and when in trouble, that ult will get you through almost anything. This is good, doesn't need a nerf. But you can do it at the cost of dropping other abilities.
There is alot of talk about cloak in here. I really don't understand it. I've mained a NB since launch, and cloak never worked for me, I have not use it in a long time. Now the heal version I do use and like. But people that talk like cloak is op? I really don't get it. It's trash. Slot an aoe, any aoe, or any counter. It's a trash skill that for me if I relied on it I was dead. Almost always. Dropping that hunk of junk of a skill made me three times a better player now than I ever was. This is seriously my honest experience and belief. CheersEdited by rimmidimdim on July 12, 2018 4:09PM0 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭Overpowered class don't you main a magsorc lmaooooooooooooooooooo
That's just it. usmguy1234 plays magicka sorc, or I assume he does since he defends rune cage and shield stacking with every fiber of his being.
I suspect the only reason he's bringing this up is because nightblades are the class that gives sorcs the most trouble.
I play all classes in pvp. If I imply the same logic, you must only play nightblades...
Regardless there are plenty of other people commenting in here that feel the same as I do... some that even play nightblade. I agreed with dduke that if nightblades left some type of trail when they cloaked that would be good enough for me. Incap will be op with or without the stun. At least it needs a cost increase to that of meteor or leap.Edited by usmguy1234 on July 12, 2018 4:16PMZaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »Overpowered class don't you main a magsorc lmaooooooooooooooooooo
That's just it. usmguy1234 plays magicka sorc, or I assume he does since he defends rune cage and shield stacking with every fiber of his being.
I suspect the only reason he's bringing this up is because nightblades are the class that gives sorcs the most trouble.
I play all classes in pvp. If I imply the same logic, you must only play nightblades...
Regardless there are plenty of other people commenting in here that feel the same as I do... some that even play nightblade. I agreed with dduke that if nightblades left some type of trail when they cloaked that would be good enough for me. Incap will be op with or without the stun. At least it needs a cost increase to that of meteor or leap.
If you can follow a nightblade with a trail, what good is cloak, exactly?
Zos will change cloak as soon as they change shield stacking....so, it's not going to happen.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »Overpowered class don't you main a magsorc lmaooooooooooooooooooo
That's just it. usmguy1234 plays magicka sorc, or I assume he does since he defends rune cage and shield stacking with every fiber of his being.
I suspect the only reason he's bringing this up is because nightblades are the class that gives sorcs the most trouble.
I play all classes in pvp. If I imply the same logic, you must only play nightblades...
Regardless there are plenty of other people commenting in here that feel the same as I do... some that even play nightblade. I agreed with dduke that if nightblades left some type of trail when they cloaked that would be good enough for me. Incap will be op with or without the stun. At least it needs a cost increase to that of meteor or leap.
If you can follow a nightblade with a trail, what good is cloak, exactly?
Zos will change cloak as soon as they change shield stacking....so, it's not going to happen.
Well, no one is saying the cloak visual cue should be blatantly obvious or that the NB should be targetable by single target abilities, so there'd be some pretty big benefits for cloaking still.
In other games I've played that "camouflage" style stealth has made the gameplay much more skill based and fun than 100% invisibility mechanics.
But that's just my experiences, maybe someone else has played those games and feels differently.Edited by DDuke on July 12, 2018 4:46PM0 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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No competitive pvp build uses swallow soul or Offering are you slow.Nothing you just said proved that NB have good healing it just prove your a PVer who zergs around the map and don't know how abilities or stat pools works.No stamblades uses those abilities you find me one build video from the last 2 years that have a person slotting those on a pvp build I will concede.
You don't know how the game works.What you just said is the equivalent of a stamplar using BOL or a stamsorc using Hardened Ward.Also you don't know how cloak work because the removed the ability to force a crit heal a patch or two ago.So lets me break down everything you just said.
Have you played ESO?Stamplar has Minor mending.Stamblade do not.Only healing bonus stamblades have is 3 healing receive from slotting leeching strikes.Stamblade can't use shadow disguise to force a crit heal anymore.So we just making crap up now sloting swallow soul on a stamblade shut you mouth.So I guess I can say a stamplar can slot a restro staff and heavy attack and get major and minor mending or slot BOL.I can say stupid stuff as well.
If they make dot still tick than they need to buff stamblade healing.As it is stamblade still have the worst healing out of the stamclasses.Give them minor mending or vitality and I say allow ticks to go through cloak.The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
"Worse healing out of all the other classes" - been on a stamplar? I could have sworn NB gets minor mending and another healing bonus for slotting a skill. Must be my imagination, right? Also must be my imagination that 15% dodge with heavy is possible, healing after killing a marked target, leeching strikes, minor vitality if you choose to put swallow soul on your bar, crit healing through stealth... What healing disadvantage are you talking about?
Do you play ESO my little fantasy online.
If your talking about minor mending from the new agony you dont get it from just sloting it you get it by damaging yourself and using ability that scales off of max magic spell damage and spell crit.If you using that as a argument that stamsorc can us hardened ward and stamplars can use BOL.
@Kadoin
So basically, you have no real argument against what I said and you want to buff stam NBs healing even more because you don't want to slot one to two siphoning skills, you don't want to use heavy on a class that can use it better than everyone else and still go on the offensive, and/or don't use cloak to get guaranteed crit heal, which by the way is a massive advantage over any other class. Sorry, but : NO.
1.You suggest slot offering which deals Oblivion damage to the user.Scales off of Max magica spell damage and only spell crit.For minor mending which would be offset by the oblivion damage being dealt to yourself.
1b.You suggest slotting Swallow soul as a stamblade. So next are you going to suggest for a stamplar who you said have the weakest healing out of all the stamclass to slot BOL.They don't have a burst heal I guess they can use that.
2.No one said I won't run heavy even running heavy stamblades still have less healing than other stam classes running heavy you know why they have extra boost to healing like mending.
3.You don't know how this ability works. Cloak doesn't work how you think it does.
Whatever you say. Again, excuses to demand a buff. What you don't understand is that those are examples of why what you said is outrageous. Just because you don't want to do something doesn't mean the option isn't there and you should get the buff to healing you desire, especially when it's completely unnecessary. The reason I'm bringing that up is because buffing healing the way you want will buff anyone who HAS taken those options and will make their builds even stronger.
"Stamplar has Minor mending" after using a skill that takes a slot, which apparently you don't want to have to do with NB. Don't forget stamplar also lacks much more compared to NB, but let's selectively look at a class because your argument has next to no merit otherwise. That makes a lot of sense to me. Hold on, let me put my brain back in and try to make sense of it again. Damn, now that my brains back in my head its no longer making sense.
"What you just said is the equivalent of a stamplar using BOL or a stamsorc using Hardened Ward," except for the fact that both don't have the ability to get 15% dodge in heavy armor, heal on light attack with leeching strikes and get access to heavy armor passives to increase healing? You can argue crit surge, but if you ask me leeching is superior because it doesn't require crits and you get stam back. Let's not even get into the execute that neither DK, stam sorc, nor stamplar have...wouldn't want leave the vacuum now would we?
Don't forget you can always take the other cloak that heals HP% and use invisibility pots or "stealth" like everyone else if healing is that big a problem. But that would make too much sense. With rally, vigor, and dark cloak you'd have to be an idiot that can't roll to die as an NB, just that you won't be cloaking on demand. But I understand, it's much better to demand buffs instead if tradeoffs on a class that is already one of the easiest in PvP.
You still have failed to show exactly how stam NBs have the "weakest healing in the game."
Can you read all you said for a stamblade to still have weaker healing than the other stam specs is to run heavy armor because they can use blur which doesn't bosst your healing.Running heavy doesn't change stamblade healing in comparison to other classes,they still have better healing bonuses.
Stamplar gets more than just minor mending from using rune focus.They get a armor buff,Minor vitality and minor protection. From passives and from the ability itself.They actually get useful bonuses for using it beside minor mending.Stamblade waste a slot using swallow soul or offering.Your argument makes no sense.
Every class class have access to heavy armor healing bonus alongside the class bonus.Having access to major evasion doesn't make their healing better.Also stamsorc have a built in execute passive.Everyone has to use 2h for rally/FM.So they get execute from 2h.
You talking about the dark cloak morph that doesn't heal for anything unless your have 30k+ health.With no healing bonus it heals for crap.
I'm sorry you don't know how the game works. Please learn before posting nonsense like this again.1 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭Boo friggin hoo cry babies. “I have to spam an aoe to bring a nightblade out of cloak or use a detect pot and lose my speed..”
Really? Too friggin bad. There are counters already in the game to cloak. Pick one and move along. Learn to play the damn class your using. Seriously. You are pathetic.3 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AoEs aren't, you're right - they can be reasonably played around by kiting. Det pot though? It's a 20m detection radius - that's a hardcounter vs any melee stamblade's cloak (you can argue bow builds aren't fully countered by it - that's ok).
Honestly 20m isn't great; you rarely catch a decent NB with one who doesn't want to get caught. Getting 20m of range is easy and it'll be worse next patch when they KNOW you have one up (and more importantly when the effect wears off.)
I'm not necessarily arguing det pots should be buffed -- they are OP versus novice nightblades -- but they also aren't all that awesome from the other side.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AoEs aren't, you're right - they can be reasonably played around by kiting. Det pot though? It's a 20m detection radius - that's a hardcounter vs any melee stamblade's cloak (you can argue bow builds aren't fully countered by it - that's ok).
Honestly 20m isn't great; you rarely catch a decent NB with one who doesn't want to get caught. Getting 20m of range is easy and it'll be worse next patch when they KNOW you have one up (and more importantly when the effect wears off.)
I'm not necessarily arguing det pots should be buffed -- they are OP versus novice nightblades -- but they also aren't all that awesome from the other side.
Depends.
You pop one up when you have stamblade in melee range & it isn't so easy to get away from that... especially if you run a gap closer/streak.
Only way really to create 20m distance quick would be Shadow Image, but then again it doesn't matter if that NB cloaks or sneaks or sprints to safety after using Shadow Image it's the same result.0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Have you played ESO?Stamplar has Minor mending.Stamblade do not.Only healing bonus stamblades have is 3 healing receive from slotting leeching strikes.Stamblade can't use shadow disguise to force a crit heal anymore.So we just making crap up now sloting swallow soul on a stamblade shut you mouth.So I guess I can say a stamplar can slot a restro staff and heavy attack and get major and minor mending or slot BOL.I can say stupid stuff as well.
If they make dot still tick than they need to buff stamblade healing.As it is stamblade still have the worst healing out of the stamclasses.Give them minor mending or vitality and I say allow ticks to go through cloak.The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
"Worse healing out of all the other classes" - been on a stamplar? I could have sworn NB gets minor mending and another healing bonus for slotting a skill. Must be my imagination, right? Also must be my imagination that 15% dodge with heavy is possible, healing after killing a marked target, leeching strikes, minor vitality if you choose to put swallow soul on your bar, crit healing through stealth... What healing disadvantage are you talking about?
Do you play ESO my little fantasy online.
If your talking about minor mending from the new agony you dont get it from just sloting it you get it by damaging yourself and using ability that scales off of max magic spell damage and spell crit.If you using that as a argument that stamsorc can us hardened ward and stamplars can use BOL.
@Kadoin
Oh buddy.usmguy1234 wrote: »Overpowered class don't you main a magsorc lmaooooooooooooooooooo
That's just it. usmguy1234 plays magicka sorc, or I assume he does since he defends rune cage and shield stacking with every fiber of his being.
I suspect the only reason he's bringing this up is because nightblades are the class that gives sorcs the most trouble.
I play all classes in pvp. If I imply the same logic, you must only play nightblades...
Regardless there are plenty of other people commenting in here that feel the same as I do... some that even play nightblade. I agreed with dduke that if nightblades left some type of trail when they cloaked that would be good enough for me. Incap will be op with or without the stun. At least it needs a cost increase to that of meteor or leap.
If you can follow a nightblade with a trail, what good is cloak, exactly?
Zos will change cloak as soon as they change shield stacking....so, it's not going to happen.
Well, no one is saying the cloak visual cue should be blatantly obvious or that the NB should be targetable by single target abilities, so there'd be some pretty big benefits for cloaking still.
In other games I've played that "camouflage" style stealth has made the gameplay much more skill based and fun than 100% invisibility mechanics.
But that's just my experiences, maybe someone else has played those games and feels differently.
The easiest way to spot a bad stamblade is to look for the ones who think a detect pot is a valid counter.
If you can’t beat someone 1v1 who has no maj expedition or maj endurance, even when you can still cause a forced miss on all ranged attacks with cloak, that’s on you.
Im really enjoying all these bad players insinuating that I’m bad but then accidentally exposing themselves in the process. Good stuff.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »Overpowered class don't you main a magsorc lmaooooooooooooooooooo
That's just it. usmguy1234 plays magicka sorc, or I assume he does since he defends rune cage and shield stacking with every fiber of his being.
I suspect the only reason he's bringing this up is because nightblades are the class that gives sorcs the most trouble.
I play all classes in pvp. If I imply the same logic, you must only play nightblades...
Regardless there are plenty of other people commenting in here that feel the same as I do... some that even play nightblade. I agreed with dduke that if nightblades left some type of trail when they cloaked that would be good enough for me. Incap will be op with or without the stun. At least it needs a cost increase to that of meteor or leap.
If you can follow a nightblade with a trail, what good is cloak, exactly?
Zos will change cloak as soon as they change shield stacking....so, it's not going to happen.
Well, no one is saying the cloak visual cue should be blatantly obvious or that the NB should be targetable by single target abilities, so there'd be some pretty big benefits for cloaking still.
In other games I've played that "camouflage" style stealth has made the gameplay much more skill based and fun than 100% invisibility mechanics.
But that's just my experiences, maybe someone else has played those games and feels differently.
The easiest way to spot a bad stamblade is to look for the ones who think a detect pot is a valid counter.
If you can’t beat someone 1v1 who has no maj expedition or maj endurance, even when you can still cause a forced miss on all ranged attacks with cloak, that’s on you.
Im really enjoying all these bad players insinuating that I’m bad but then accidentally exposing themselves in the process. Good stuff.
Where have I insinuated you're bad? I've seen you play, you're not.
But you're playing a stam warden (correct me if I'm mistaken), which is the class with the toughest time dealing with stamblades as pretty much only AoE you have is shalks and you don't really have any undodgeable abilities apart from Shalks/DBOS. I don't think I've died to one in... 2-3 months on my squishy bowblade - which tells all one needs to know about how hard it is for stam wardens to kill a stamblade (as long as you can avoid the shalks).
Not sure if you've tried Steel Tornado, but I'd give that a shot. It somewhat counters both dodge roll/cloak. Other than that you're pretty much SOL as stam warden (which I think is something that needs to change).
For classes like mDK (if Empowering Chains are slotted) or Sorc though det pot is a very strong counter vs stamblade as it lets them keep dealing dmg with DoTs/burst with undodgeable abilities.Edited by DDuke on July 12, 2018 6:22PM0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Threads like this is Why PvP in ESO went from epic to sub par.Edited by Lucky28 on July 12, 2018 7:58PMInvictus2 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just think some pvp training lessons would benefit y’all more than nerfing this class. Send me you @ name and I’ll work with you.
PC NA2 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »Overpowered class don't you main a magsorc lmaooooooooooooooooooo
That's just it. usmguy1234 plays magicka sorc, or I assume he does since he defends rune cage and shield stacking with every fiber of his being.
I suspect the only reason he's bringing this up is because nightblades are the class that gives sorcs the most trouble.
I play all classes in pvp. If I imply the same logic, you must only play nightblades...
Regardless there are plenty of other people commenting in here that feel the same as I do... some that even play nightblade. I agreed with dduke that if nightblades left some type of trail when they cloaked that would be good enough for me. Incap will be op with or without the stun. At least it needs a cost increase to that of meteor or leap.
If you can follow a nightblade with a trail, what good is cloak, exactly?
Zos will change cloak as soon as they change shield stacking....so, it's not going to happen.
Well, no one is saying the cloak visual cue should be blatantly obvious or that the NB should be targetable by single target abilities, so there'd be some pretty big benefits for cloaking still.
In other games I've played that "camouflage" style stealth has made the gameplay much more skill based and fun than 100% invisibility mechanics.
But that's just my experiences, maybe someone else has played those games and feels differently.
The easiest way to spot a bad stamblade is to look for the ones who think a detect pot is a valid counter.
If you can’t beat someone 1v1 who has no maj expedition or maj endurance, even when you can still cause a forced miss on all ranged attacks with cloak, that’s on you.
Im really enjoying all these bad players insinuating that I’m bad but then accidentally exposing themselves in the process. Good stuff.
Where have I insinuated you're bad? I've seen you play, you're not.
But you're playing a stam warden (correct me if I'm mistaken), which is the class with the toughest time dealing with stamblades as pretty much only AoE you have is shalks and you don't really have any undodgeable abilities apart from Shalks/DBOS. I don't think I've died to one in... 2-3 months on my squishy bowblade - which tells all one needs to know about how hard it is for stam wardens to kill a stamblade (as long as you can avoid the shalks).
Not sure if you've tried Steel Tornado, but I'd give that a shot. It somewhat counters both dodge roll/cloak. Other than that you're pretty much SOL as stam warden (which I think is something that needs to change).
For classes like mDK (if Empowering Chains are slotted) or Sorc though det pot is a very strong counter vs stamblade as it lets them keep dealing dmg with DoTs/burst with undodgeable abilities.
Ah I quoted the wrong thread. You were not the intended “you” lol
PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »I just think some pvp training lessons would benefit y’all more than nerfing this class. Send me you @ name and I’ll work with you.
PC NA
@thogard on PC NA. What are your char names.
Come “give me lessons”Edited by Thogard on July 12, 2018 9:21PMPC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »I just think some pvp training lessons would benefit y’all more than nerfing this class. Send me you @ name and I’ll work with you.
PC NA
@thogard on PC NA. What are your char names.
Come “give me lessons” [/quote
@DUTCH_REAPER is mine. Hit me up.0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »I just think some pvp training lessons would benefit y’all more than nerfing this class. Send me you @ name and I’ll work with you.
PC NA
@thogard on PC NA. What are your char names.
Come “give me lessons”
@DUTCH_REAPER is mine. Hit me up.
account not foundEdited by Thogard on July 12, 2018 9:33PMPC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Dutch underscore Reaper
Dutch_Reaper
you are not online on PC NA atm.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭Threads like this is Why PvP in ESO went from epic to sub par.
That's the thing... If you know anything about game theory, you'll know balanced games aren't necessarily the most fun games to play. Unbalanced games are really fun (for those who abuse the overpowered aspects of the game) and not so fun for those who don't. The best games are those who have slight power fluctuations (say 10-15%) that way those who are in that top percent feel strong but not so strong that those in the lower percent don't feel the fulfillment of beating them fairly regularly. Granted this is the holy grail of gaming because of the tons of variables that go in to balance like this. And with zenimax's general ignoring of feedback from class reps and general threads like these I feel like that balance is probably never going to be reached within the life of this game.
So, this thread was mainly the result of aggravation as a result of that. Even so some good points came out of it and dduke even convinced me of a better way to balance cloakEdited by usmguy1234 on July 13, 2018 1:08AMZaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Thogard just rekt my mnb
it was GFs.
edit; stamden is strong against mNB, my issue is with sNBs that can kite indefinitely w/o stam problems.
Edited by Thogard on July 12, 2018 10:42PMPC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp3 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »Threads like this is Why PvP in ESO went from epic to sub par.
That's the thing... If you know anything about game theory, you'll know balanced games aren't necessarily the most fun games to play. Unbalanced games are really fun (for those who abuse the overpowered aspects of the game) and not so fun for those who don't. The best games are those who have slight power fluctuations (say 10-15%) that way those who are in that top percent feel strong but not so strong that those in the lower percent don't feel the fulfillment of beating them fairly regularly. Granted this is the holy grail of gaming because of the tons of variables that go in to balance like this. And with zenimax's general ignoring of feedback from class reps and general threads like these I feel like that balance is probably never going to be reached within the life of this game.
So, this thread was mainly the result of aggravation as a result of that. Even so some going points came out of it and dduke even convinced me of a better way to balance cloak
I get frustration. but people should understand by now that they're not capable of balancing the game. everything the current combat team touches turns to ash. just best not to give them any idea's and maybe that will slow them down a bit on their quest to annihilate Cyrodiil.Edited by Lucky28 on July 13, 2018 1:09AMInvictus1