Maintenance for the week of January 5:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
Zenimax in regards to nightblades
-
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭I keep inner light on my bar. It pulls Nightblades right out of stealth in addition to the other benefits. I think it works great for me... One of my guildies prefers detect pots even on his sorc, and seems to get an unusual amount of pleasure of taking down Nightblades. I am not currently running any stam classes, but I think evil/camp hunter works too. Maybe try out one of these abilities if you are frequently getting killed by Nightblades. It’s fun revealing them and killing them.0 -
Azurya✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
aha, overpowered class, LoL
why don´t you ask to delete it from the game entirly?1 -
shinikaze✭✭✭The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
I disagree with both of those suggestions. Not being able to heal doesn't make sense. Your opponent can't see you, why would this mean you can't heal? Making it a channel would kill the move since it's usage is reactionary, and not always reliable.
I think the better approach would be to allow DoTs to still work on the individual that's cloaked. Why should someone spontaneously stop bleeding just because no one sees them. Doesn't make sense.
I've always thought this way, and I don't mind taking dots so long as my cloak is still up. Same for sorcerers, why would a shield absorb a bleed/ burn/ poison. Shield should protect from incoming damage not these kinds1 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
I disagree with both of those suggestions. Not being able to heal doesn't make sense. Your opponent can't see you, why would this mean you can't heal? Making it a channel would kill the move since it's usage is reactionary, and not always reliable.
I think the better approach would be to allow DoTs to still work on the individual that's cloaked. Why should someone spontaneously stop bleeding just because no one sees them. Doesn't make sense.
I've always thought this way, and I don't mind taking dots so long as my cloak is still up. Same for sorcerers, why would a shield absorb a bleed/ burn/ poison. Shield should protect from incoming damage not these kinds
Better yet how can someone just disappear when you set them on fire?Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.1 -
Killset✭✭✭✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »
Because a speed / detect pot doesn’t exist
A stamina / detect pot doesn’t exist
As soon as I use a detect pot on a Stam toon I become 100% kitable.
Thankfully the vast majority of nightblades are so bad at the game that they don’t know how to kite... a skill which is absolutely necessary to learn on any other Stam class.
But we can’t balance around the “average” nightblade because the “average” nightblade is just a collection of players that were too inept to be successful on any other class.
We need to balance as if the person playing the NB was actually a good player on other classes too. It’s a far fetched idea, I know, but there are a few examples out there.
So that brings me back to detect pots. If you use a detect pot, you will lose the fight against an equal or even a less skilled opponent. Why? Because all of the “counters” to cloak are, themselves, easily countered when the person on the sNB has at least a small grasp on how to actually play the game.
Do you lose to NB 1v1 a lot?
4 -
Priyasekarssk✭✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Nope. Decrease damage output on par with other classes. NB damage output is far above other classes. Atleast 30 percent more. All vet trials are NBs. Other classes are getting kicked.Edited by Priyasekarssk on July 11, 2018 3:37PM1 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭Priyasekarssk wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Nope. Decrease damage output on par with other classes. NB damage output is far above other classes. Atleast 30 percent more. All vet trials are NBs. Other classes are getting kicked.
Definitely but for the sake of pvp, I feel that these skills are over performing the most.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »
Because a speed / detect pot doesn’t exist
A stamina / detect pot doesn’t exist
As soon as I use a detect pot on a Stam toon I become 100% kitable.
Thankfully the vast majority of nightblades are so bad at the game that they don’t know how to kite... a skill which is absolutely necessary to learn on any other Stam class.
But we can’t balance around the “average” nightblade because the “average” nightblade is just a collection of players that were too inept to be successful on any other class.
We need to balance as if the person playing the NB was actually a good player on other classes too. It’s a far fetched idea, I know, but there are a few examples out there.
So that brings me back to detect pots. If you use a detect pot, you will lose the fight against an equal or even a less skilled opponent. Why? Because all of the “counters” to cloak are, themselves, easily countered when the person on the sNB has at least a small grasp on how to actually play the game.
Guess why they are so bad at kiting... cuz they don't have to with their Cloak. And agreed on these supposed 'counters' being easily countered by those with any idea on how to play the game.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
to remove skill and satisfaction from killing a skillful player
StamBlades take no skill to play lmao. Anyone can hop on one and do good.
Also didn’t know that spamming cloak and hiding until a Zerg Comes to help you Xv1 is skillful??
Id say this entire game is easy to play regardless of class. Its just knowledge of mechanics/builds.
The rest of the skill comes from how you perform in open world in my opinion. I wont die in cryodill ganking people for sometimes entire play sessions. While ill see bad nb's go 1 for 1 every gank.
The whole game gas become homogenized anyway. Theres only a few players who actually make unique builds and try to break the meta.PS4 NA DC0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...
Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.
Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).
I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.
Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.
In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).
Lets be realistic "breaking the cloak" is not one sided thing that can be looked at only as doom of nb and the moment after which he's definietly dead. This is the issue with cloak that makes that ability sometimes extremly strong and sometimes underpowered that it hugely depends oh how that cloak was broken and what happened after. There are builds that can break cloak pretty effectively but cant do anything with revealed stamblade since he'll avoid most of their dmg while keeping dmg pressure on them. It's not like Shadow Image ability cant help when cloak fails. Huge benefit that stamblade have over magblade is that even after cloak is broken he can still avoid lot of dmg by roll dodging since he can build up very high stamina recovery because minor berserk and 20% dmg debuff from incap compensate max stamina/wep dmg he sacrifices to get more stam regen. Stamblade can also easily remove snares without sacrificong any parts of his build for that and can get major expedition as a passive which extremly boost both his cloaking and escaping possibilities. All of that without making any special sacrifices , stamblade is just getting it passively. When You have build that can dissapear from fight on demand that build should not have extreme mobility or extreme burst dmg given passively.
Other stamina classes have class defining defenses. Problem is that on other classes (maybe except stamden) that defenses comes with cost and are not creating extremly stong connections with base game mechanics that basicly makes that class defining ability no brainer in many scenarios and doesnt require sacrifices from user to be very effective.
Nightblade have additional features for cloak. Auto crit from cloak , fact his spammable abilites stun from cloak and set enemy off ballance , more wep/spell dmg in cloak are just few of benefits other then just dissapearing from fight on demand that nightblade have. There are games where the only benefit from that playstyle is just dissapearing and it have cooldown so making stealth playstyle with spammable vanishing ability without any penalties while in it and with additional benefits for use where counters are at best mediocre and situational plus most of the time easy to avoid (even easier after new update)sounds pretty strong. Adding infinite roll dodge spam and teleporting to shade on top of it is just sometimes too much.
Well guess which class have acces to mark ? It's pretty obvious mark was created just to make nb vs nb fights even possible to exist because otherwise it would be just cloak/dodge fest between just scratching one another. As for Sload goes fact that it reveals from cloak currently is problematic but I wouldnt call iot game breaking until multiple Sload's stack. You still have shade and in proper LoS scenario You'll survive and if You are not in proper LoS scenario well You choosed fight where You are in disadventage so death shouldnt be something supprising.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...
Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.
Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).
I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.
Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.
In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).
Lets be realistic "breaking the cloak" is not one sided thing that can be looked at only as doom of nb and the moment after which he's definietly dead. This is the issue with cloak that makes that ability sometimes extremly strong and sometimes underpowered that it hugely depends oh how that cloak was broken and what happened after. There are builds that can break cloak pretty effectively but cant do anything with revealed stamblade since he'll avoid most of their dmg while keeping dmg pressure on them. It's not like Shadow Image ability cant help when cloak fails. Huge benefit that stamblade have over magblade is that even after cloak is broken he can still avoid lot of dmg by roll dodging since he can build up very high stamina recovery because minor berserk and 20% dmg debuff from incap compensate max stamina/wep dmg he sacrifices to get more stam regen. Stamblade can also easily remove snares without sacrificong any parts of his build for that and can get major expedition as a passive which extremly boost both his cloaking and escaping possibilities. All of that without making any special sacrifices , stamblade is just getting it passively. When You have build that can dissapear from fight on demand that build should not have extreme mobility or extreme burst dmg given passively.
Dodge roll is strong, but if you're forced into spamming it you run out of stamina just like you would on any other stam class. Outside stealth stamblade is actually significantly weaker defensively than other classes, DKs/Sorcs have far better mitigation and heals, Warden has Shimmering Shield and so on.
The only thing stamblade really has going for it is cloak and a good spammable.
But back to the topic of dodge roll, there are actually very strong counters to that these days in form of Bombard/Acid Spray, Steel Tornado, DoTs etc - some of those like Bombard/Acid Spray & Steel Tornado actually counter cloak as well.Other stamina classes have class defining defenses. Problem is that on other classes (maybe except stamden) that defenses comes with cost and are not creating extremly stong connections with base game mechanics that basicly makes that class defining ability no brainer in many scenarios and doesnt require sacrifices from user to be very effective.
Yes, other classes need stronger class defenses so they can stop crutching on broken tank sets & bleeds and play other playstyles successfully, just like NB can. I have 4 other stamina characters I'd love to make unique, fun builds for.
Stam DK might be in that spot next patch as wings will be really strong for mobility/mitigation.Nightblade have additional features for cloak. Auto crit from cloak , fact his spammable abilites stun from cloak and set enemy off ballance , more wep/spell dmg in cloak are just few of benefits other then just dissapearing from fight on demand that nightblade have. There are games where the only benefit from that playstyle is just dissapearing and it have cooldown so making stealth playstyle with spammable vanishing ability without any penalties while in it and with additional benefits for use where counters are at best mediocre and situational plus most of the time easy to avoid (even easier after new update)sounds pretty strong. Adding infinite roll dodge spam and teleporting to shade on top of it is just sometimes too much.
There is one skill that gains special effects when attacking from stealth. One.
That and some passive that gives 200 weapon damage to my next light/heavy attack (as that is the first thing to land from stealth) doesn't really cut it.
There might be other games where the only benefit of stealth is the invisibility, but these games have one thing in common: I don't play them and I have no desire to ever play them.
There are good examples of good stealth systems, such as WoW (entire skill bar dedicated to stealth gameplay) or Blade & Soul (better, "camouflage" style stealth, lots of stealth specific skills etc), Thief in GW2 gets a lot of stealth specific abilities and so on.Well guess which class have acces to mark ? It's pretty obvious mark was created just to make nb vs nb fights even possible to exist because otherwise it would be just cloak/dodge fest between just scratching one another. As for Sload goes fact that it reveals from cloak currently is problematic but I wouldnt call iot game breaking until multiple Sload's stack. You still have shade and in proper LoS scenario You'll survive and if You are not in proper LoS scenario well You choosed fight where You are in disadventage so death shouldnt be something supprising.
NB vs NB fights are 100% possible without Piercing Mark (though I do run it as well, mostly for Major Fracture).
I'd say most of my BG kills are from spamming Bombard at NBs trying to dodge or cloak.
On a melee stamblade I just slot either det pots (I always have them hotkeyed) or alternatively Steel Tornado.
It isn't necessarily a cloak/dodge fest if you know how to build a good stamblade.
Also I think you highly overestimate NB survivability.
In this patch I've died many times to just one DoT+Sload outdamaging my Vigor and then 2-3 Skoria procs falling on me while I desperately spend the last of my stamina spamming dodge roll to avoid evaporating, unable to do anything about the damage ticking on me.
The only stamblades who don't have a problem with Sload are tank builds with Troll Kings, Impregnable & whatnot.0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Let's not exaggerate pls lol. Ofc, NB is BiS PVE class, there will always be one. This is in the PVP forum discussing PVP balance tho, so it's irrelevant.Priyasekarssk wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Nope. Decrease damage output on par with other classes. NB damage output is far above other classes. Atleast 30 percent more. All vet trials are NBs. Other classes are getting kicked.
On a related note: sNB is entirely without an AOE toolkit (Power Extract
). Stam Warden, Stam Sorc, Stam Plar far outshine NB for any kind of group play. I raid once a week in a medium sized raid group and the only accepted role for sNB is "full support." This means stack regen and follow the group around spamming Maneuvers for snare removal lol. Even then the consensus is, a Stamden would be better-- timed burst and AOE fracture.
edit: as I reread this^ I realize how few people actually PVP in organized/optimized groups, so this my not even be relevant to anyone here either. sNB is OP at zerg surfing and the ol' peace-out-- indisputable.
Edited by kadar on July 11, 2018 6:23PM1 -
davey1107✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think your complaints about cloak are a bit misplaced, but not entirely.
There are tons of counters for pulling NBs out of cloak, and they're available to any player at the cost of one bar slot. That's not a bad deal when we consider that the best counters for shield-spammers are sets; being forced into a 5-piece set as a hard counter is a far bigger sacrifice than a slot for an ability that reveals. Players could do more of what I do...when it's time to hunt a NB I quickly change out a skill for magelight. It's a bit cumbersome and doesn't work in a quick surprise battle, but about 80% of the time I'm not hurt by taking five seconds to skill-flip.
They could also take the radiant magelight morph instead of inner light. I get it...inner light's max magic feature is pretty OP. But if you want to hunt blades, then you probably need to sacrifice the max magic for the radius. I've used both, and radiant's 10 meters makes it like 4,000x more likely you'll find your night blade.
ZOS could also fix hunter so that stam builds have a decent reveal skill...it's always been utterly useless and could/should work more like magelight.
Proposed nerf
Where there is a legitimate complaint is that magblades can perma-cloak. This is a bit OP...I'd put it right below sorc's shield-spamming in terms of unfairness and annoyance.
But cost changes would entirely disrupt stamblade play, where cloak costs are set really well. Reducing magblades to the number of cloaks as a sorc can streak would destroy the stamblade class. What might work is a change that gives cloak both a magic and stam path. The morphs could function identical, just use different resources. The costs could then be set to offer night blades a more consistent number of cloaks between the two.
Still...I'm not entirely sold. The magic builds I fight these days are "shield, shield, shield, shield, double shield, shield, shield, shield..." Cloak is just the nightblade variant of that.2 -
Swimguy✭✭✭lol only bad nightblades spam cloak so if you have that much trouble than you also suck. if you think cloak is OP what about shields?
only thing that 100% counters shields is oblivion damage (little to zero other than sloads).
Cloak can be 100% removed and disabled with potions and skills (somewhat prevalent)
magsorcs still have healing they have streak they have ranged unblockable and undodgable cc and loads and loads of burst damage. I get gap closers are busted and super spammable... that needs a fix. but why are shields so loaded with defensive capabilities with 0 counter PLAY, I can BUILD my character to combat them but i will be playing the exact same way.
Cloaks have counter play= good/balanced because players can use their SKILL and game KNOWLEDGE to counter it up to 100%.
shields have counter build= this is not healthy because there is no counter play the most effective and consistent way to fight a shielded player is to run oblivion damage, thus sacrificing another aspect (this is called counter BUILD). This gives shielded users an edge not only because of the massive value it brings to the table ( crit/resistance debuff immune) but because shields scale with mana mag classes can run high mana, neglecting spell damage and put just enough into regen/cost reduction to sustain.
just because you run full divines and someone crits you for 10k doesnt mean theyre op it means your build sucks and shields are overpowered
4 -
H4RDFOX✭✭✭Thunderknuckles wrote: »Stop it with the nerfs to an assassin class. A class that originally was designed TO KILL YOU IN CYRO!!!!! What class do you use? What ability do you spam? How do you play defensively, offensively?
Cloak offers a crit strike (shadowy disguise), or a heal/minor protection (Dark cloak) with the speed of other abilities/passives in place. What other ability performs adequately if not better than cloak? Many! Streak stuns, and causes damage, puts you further away at cast. Cloak does not do that. Cloak can be broken, hence the minor protection to dark cloak, because it was an issue many patches ago. You can streak away, and gain massive amounts of distance. You cannot with cloak, you have to find a location and remain crouched so you stealth. So AOE's break stealth, detect pots/poisons. You have many approaches to counter a nightblade. People are pitchforking nerfs to an assassin class, and that is uncalled for. It is a L2P issue, there is not getting around that. I don't always survive engagements as a NB, and I do. Just the same as a sorc you can streak and stun, and streak, then streak again and cast shields. You can't cast anything in stealth that bubbles you, or heals you. They are both viable, and they are not equal. Anyone who wants a nerf to cloak, and NBs in general seem like they are the ones who don't want to die to an assassin class, and want to duel, and feel powerful when they win. I might as well call nerfs to a tanking class for tanking too much, or a healing class for healing too much.
Fox, logic and common sense are all but useless here. At least as long as people only reason emotionally. You're right. The ones calling for nerfs all the time are usually the ones who just don't like being beaten.....ever...by anything.
Stealth is just not good game design, at least not in the environment PvP has in ESO. It's either incredibly powerful or totally useless. Btw, assassin class doesn't mean you should have carte blanche no matter what you do. But a lot of forum NBs seem to have the opinion that an assassin class must mean being untouchable. Yes, there are skills and potions that prevent stealth. They all have their issues, and just add to the dichotomy.
As for Streak - the massive amount of distance is 15m for one streak cast. Every gap closer has 22m. And if you don't run one now every speed pot will outrun streak (or just mount up when the Sorc is stuck in combat for a trillion years).
They aren't untouchable. Streak can be recast to gain instant distance however much magicka you have, cloak is casted and breaks often, and continues to leave you in the same area.
EDIT: If you are spamming an ability that is helping you destroy the enemy, or survive, then it needs a nerf asap. So stam players who cast rally, and vigor should have those ability's cost increased. They have increased speeds, increased damage, and heals.Edited by H4RDFOX on July 12, 2018 12:04AM#NoEasyProps0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...
Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.
Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).
I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.
Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.
In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).
Lets be realistic "breaking the cloak" is not one sided thing that can be looked at only as doom of nb and the moment after which he's definietly dead. This is the issue with cloak that makes that ability sometimes extremly strong and sometimes underpowered that it hugely depends oh how that cloak was broken and what happened after. There are builds that can break cloak pretty effectively but cant do anything with revealed stamblade since he'll avoid most of their dmg while keeping dmg pressure on them. It's not like Shadow Image ability cant help when cloak fails. Huge benefit that stamblade have over magblade is that even after cloak is broken he can still avoid lot of dmg by roll dodging since he can build up very high stamina recovery because minor berserk and 20% dmg debuff from incap compensate max stamina/wep dmg he sacrifices to get more stam regen. Stamblade can also easily remove snares without sacrificong any parts of his build for that and can get major expedition as a passive which extremly boost both his cloaking and escaping possibilities. All of that without making any special sacrifices , stamblade is just getting it passively. When You have build that can dissapear from fight on demand that build should not have extreme mobility or extreme burst dmg given passively.
Dodge roll is strong, but if you're forced into spamming it you run out of stamina just like you would on any other stam class. Outside stealth stamblade is actually significantly weaker defensively than other classes, DKs/Sorcs have far better mitigation and heals, Warden has Shimmering Shield and so on.
The only thing stamblade really has going for it is cloak and a good spammable.
But back to the topic of dodge roll, there are actually very strong counters to that these days in form of Bombard/Acid Spray, Steel Tornado, DoTs etc - some of those like Bombard/Acid Spray & Steel Tornado actually counter cloak as well.Other stamina classes have class defining defenses. Problem is that on other classes (maybe except stamden) that defenses comes with cost and are not creating extremly stong connections with base game mechanics that basicly makes that class defining ability no brainer in many scenarios and doesnt require sacrifices from user to be very effective.
Yes, other classes need stronger class defenses so they can stop crutching on broken tank sets & bleeds and play other playstyles successfully, just like NB can. I have 4 other stamina characters I'd love to make unique, fun builds for.
Stam DK might be in that spot next patch as wings will be really strong for mobility/mitigation.Nightblade have additional features for cloak. Auto crit from cloak , fact his spammable abilites stun from cloak and set enemy off ballance , more wep/spell dmg in cloak are just few of benefits other then just dissapearing from fight on demand that nightblade have. There are games where the only benefit from that playstyle is just dissapearing and it have cooldown so making stealth playstyle with spammable vanishing ability without any penalties while in it and with additional benefits for use where counters are at best mediocre and situational plus most of the time easy to avoid (even easier after new update)sounds pretty strong. Adding infinite roll dodge spam and teleporting to shade on top of it is just sometimes too much.
There is one skill that gains special effects when attacking from stealth. One.
That and some passive that gives 200 weapon damage to my next light/heavy attack (as that is the first thing to land from stealth) doesn't really cut it.
There might be other games where the only benefit of stealth is the invisibility, but these games have one thing in common: I don't play them and I have no desire to ever play them.
There are good examples of good stealth systems, such as WoW (entire skill bar dedicated to stealth gameplay) or Blade & Soul (better, "camouflage" style stealth, lots of stealth specific skills etc), Thief in GW2 gets a lot of stealth specific abilities and so on.Well guess which class have acces to mark ? It's pretty obvious mark was created just to make nb vs nb fights even possible to exist because otherwise it would be just cloak/dodge fest between just scratching one another. As for Sload goes fact that it reveals from cloak currently is problematic but I wouldnt call iot game breaking until multiple Sload's stack. You still have shade and in proper LoS scenario You'll survive and if You are not in proper LoS scenario well You choosed fight where You are in disadventage so death shouldnt be something supprising.
NB vs NB fights are 100% possible without Piercing Mark (though I do run it as well, mostly for Major Fracture).
I'd say most of my BG kills are from spamming Bombard at NBs trying to dodge or cloak.
On a melee stamblade I just slot either det pots (I always have them hotkeyed) or alternatively Steel Tornado.
It isn't necessarily a cloak/dodge fest if you know how to build a good stamblade.
Also I think you highly overestimate NB survivability.
In this patch I've died many times to just one DoT+Sload outdamaging my Vigor and then 2-3 Skoria procs falling on me while I desperately spend the last of my stamina spamming dodge roll to avoid evaporating, unable to do anything about the damage ticking on me.
The only stamblades who don't have a problem with Sload are tank builds with Troll Kings, Impregnable & whatnot.
Are You even reading what I posted. The main issue with stamblade is that he can get away free with dodge roll penalties because he can wait it in cloak. Other stamnina classes when spamming dodge roll brainlesly are out of stamina after few dodges and then they have to come up with some other ways of defense while still taking damage. Stamblade can spam serie of 5 roll dodges in a row then use vigor go into cloak , heal up without taking any dmg and wait until the dodge roll penatly will be over when in the meantime restoring stamina easily because fact he's not taking dmg also allows him to not spend stamina. He restores stamina heals up and comes back to fight with high health and stamina level. All of that passively with half brained defensive mechanic. Ofc it's not how it always looks like buty it looks like that too many times to not see how problematic that part of stamblade playstyle is. Stamblade is weaker then other classes when he is without cloak ? This is why no cloak stamblades are wrecking people in duels left and right ? Properly geared stamblade can create enough damage pressure to push others into defense so he wont have to defend much.
Umm the only good thing stamblade have is cloak and supprise attack ? How about incap the best single target ultimate , or ambush the best gap closer , or relentess focus the best class buff and burst ability , or fear one of the best class hard CC's ?
Seriously argument about AoE's ? With major expedition and roll dodge You can get away from steel tornado range faster then before 2nd or 3rd cast of it will happen even if the enemie is spamming it while chasing You. Acid spray is even easier to avoid especially when you have shade. This types of damage You've mentioned have very low chance to do anything to stamblade if used only by one player and there is no other attackers around. If You think that this types of damage are issue then You basicly thing that anything that can touch stamblade is issue and there should be no dmg type that can deal damage to him. There always have to be damage type that ignores some strong defensive yet nightblades are always coming up with the argument that there are some dmg that can occasionaly counter them...
Here it comes... Classic argument that if stamblade is strong and other stam builds are not so others needs buff just dont touch stamblade.
As for stam DK we'll see but I wouldnt have high hopes.
Actually most of physical dmg abilities when used from stealth applies stun so I would say there is more then one.
Fact that You dont want to play games that doesnt fit You idea of stealth playstyle doesnt looks very objective.
Yes I agree other games have differently looking stealth playstyles but You forget to mention about one thing that all of them have also strong drawbacks to that playsatyles like inability to use it in combat , cooldowns , reduced healing or recovery while in it etc. ESO have no drawback builded into that playstyle at all and kinda mediocre counters that most of the time requires sacrifices from user to be effective so basicly You need to cripple Yourself just to reveal nightblade and then fight him while crippled.
Nb vs nb fight without marks is possible only if both of those nightblades wants to fight. If 1 of them will say "screw it I wont win" then fight is over with a tie.
Fact that nightblade is most played class which means there is also the most of bad players playing it which means lot of easy kills doesnt mean class is weak and that AoE's are reall hardcounters especially against people who knows what to do , and You dont have to be very good at game to know what to do.
I know it's not needed to cloak/dodge spam on stamblade however I pointed out that when someone wants he can make it extremly strong and potent defense while beeing basicly childlishly easy to use. All of that on build that have really strong and also easy to use burst.
I think I dont overestomate anything I know stamblade isnt god that will survive everything and there are encounters he'll find difficult to survive however I am just pointing out that there is 1 particular scenario where his defense becomes very strong and very easy and that type of defense is effective agaisnt too many builds to not be looked at.
I agree that Sload is stupid set. I dont want nightblade to have cloak destroyed or stealthy playstyle to be removed. I just want it to be more skill based and for it to have the middle ground between situations when it's underperforming and situations where it's clearly too strong. Detection potions and Sload are getting nerfed which is buff for cloak so it's time to look at situations where stamblade playstyle can be way too strong. I wouldnt mind to see magblades having much better use of cloak then stamblades which currently is not happening.
2 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...
Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.
Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).
I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.
Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.
In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).
Lets be realistic "breaking the cloak" is not one sided thing that can be looked at only as doom of nb and the moment after which he's definietly dead. This is the issue with cloak that makes that ability sometimes extremly strong and sometimes underpowered that it hugely depends oh how that cloak was broken and what happened after. There are builds that can break cloak pretty effectively but cant do anything with revealed stamblade since he'll avoid most of their dmg while keeping dmg pressure on them. It's not like Shadow Image ability cant help when cloak fails. Huge benefit that stamblade have over magblade is that even after cloak is broken he can still avoid lot of dmg by roll dodging since he can build up very high stamina recovery because minor berserk and 20% dmg debuff from incap compensate max stamina/wep dmg he sacrifices to get more stam regen. Stamblade can also easily remove snares without sacrificong any parts of his build for that and can get major expedition as a passive which extremly boost both his cloaking and escaping possibilities. All of that without making any special sacrifices , stamblade is just getting it passively. When You have build that can dissapear from fight on demand that build should not have extreme mobility or extreme burst dmg given passively.
Dodge roll is strong, but if you're forced into spamming it you run out of stamina just like you would on any other stam class. Outside stealth stamblade is actually significantly weaker defensively than other classes, DKs/Sorcs have far better mitigation and heals, Warden has Shimmering Shield and so on.
The only thing stamblade really has going for it is cloak and a good spammable.
But back to the topic of dodge roll, there are actually very strong counters to that these days in form of Bombard/Acid Spray, Steel Tornado, DoTs etc - some of those like Bombard/Acid Spray & Steel Tornado actually counter cloak as well.Other stamina classes have class defining defenses. Problem is that on other classes (maybe except stamden) that defenses comes with cost and are not creating extremly stong connections with base game mechanics that basicly makes that class defining ability no brainer in many scenarios and doesnt require sacrifices from user to be very effective.
Yes, other classes need stronger class defenses so they can stop crutching on broken tank sets & bleeds and play other playstyles successfully, just like NB can. I have 4 other stamina characters I'd love to make unique, fun builds for.
Stam DK might be in that spot next patch as wings will be really strong for mobility/mitigation.Nightblade have additional features for cloak. Auto crit from cloak , fact his spammable abilites stun from cloak and set enemy off ballance , more wep/spell dmg in cloak are just few of benefits other then just dissapearing from fight on demand that nightblade have. There are games where the only benefit from that playstyle is just dissapearing and it have cooldown so making stealth playstyle with spammable vanishing ability without any penalties while in it and with additional benefits for use where counters are at best mediocre and situational plus most of the time easy to avoid (even easier after new update)sounds pretty strong. Adding infinite roll dodge spam and teleporting to shade on top of it is just sometimes too much.
There is one skill that gains special effects when attacking from stealth. One.
That and some passive that gives 200 weapon damage to my next light/heavy attack (as that is the first thing to land from stealth) doesn't really cut it.
There might be other games where the only benefit of stealth is the invisibility, but these games have one thing in common: I don't play them and I have no desire to ever play them.
There are good examples of good stealth systems, such as WoW (entire skill bar dedicated to stealth gameplay) or Blade & Soul (better, "camouflage" style stealth, lots of stealth specific skills etc), Thief in GW2 gets a lot of stealth specific abilities and so on.Well guess which class have acces to mark ? It's pretty obvious mark was created just to make nb vs nb fights even possible to exist because otherwise it would be just cloak/dodge fest between just scratching one another. As for Sload goes fact that it reveals from cloak currently is problematic but I wouldnt call iot game breaking until multiple Sload's stack. You still have shade and in proper LoS scenario You'll survive and if You are not in proper LoS scenario well You choosed fight where You are in disadventage so death shouldnt be something supprising.
NB vs NB fights are 100% possible without Piercing Mark (though I do run it as well, mostly for Major Fracture).
I'd say most of my BG kills are from spamming Bombard at NBs trying to dodge or cloak.
On a melee stamblade I just slot either det pots (I always have them hotkeyed) or alternatively Steel Tornado.
It isn't necessarily a cloak/dodge fest if you know how to build a good stamblade.
Also I think you highly overestimate NB survivability.
In this patch I've died many times to just one DoT+Sload outdamaging my Vigor and then 2-3 Skoria procs falling on me while I desperately spend the last of my stamina spamming dodge roll to avoid evaporating, unable to do anything about the damage ticking on me.
The only stamblades who don't have a problem with Sload are tank builds with Troll Kings, Impregnable & whatnot.
Are You even reading what I posted. The main issue with stamblade is that he can get away free with dodge roll penalties because he can wait it in cloak. Other stamnina classes when spamming dodge roll brainlesly are out of stamina after few dodges and then they have to come up with some other ways of defense while still taking damage. Stamblade can spam serie of 5 roll dodges in a row then use vigor go into cloak , heal up without taking any dmg and wait until the dodge roll penatly will be over when in the meantime restoring stamina easily because fact he's not taking dmg also allows him to not spend stamina. He restores stamina heals up and comes back to fight with high health and stamina level. All of that passively with half brained defensive mechanic. Ofc it's not how it always looks like buty it looks like that too many times to not see how problematic that part of stamblade playstyle is. Stamblade is weaker then other classes when he is without cloak ? This is why no cloak stamblades are wrecking people in duels left and right ? Properly geared stamblade can create enough damage pressure to push others into defense so he wont have to defend much.
Umm the only good thing stamblade have is cloak and supprise attack ? How about incap the best single target ultimate , or ambush the best gap closer , or relentess focus the best class buff and burst ability , or fear one of the best class hard CC's ?
Seriously argument about AoE's ? With major expedition and roll dodge You can get away from steel tornado range faster then before 2nd or 3rd cast of it will happen even if the enemie is spamming it while chasing You. Acid spray is even easier to avoid especially when you have shade. This types of damage You've mentioned have very low chance to do anything to stamblade if used only by one player and there is no other attackers around. If You think that this types of damage are issue then You basicly thing that anything that can touch stamblade is issue and there should be no dmg type that can deal damage to him. There always have to be damage type that ignores some strong defensive yet nightblades are always coming up with the argument that there are some dmg that can occasionaly counter them...
Here it comes... Classic argument that if stamblade is strong and other stam builds are not so others needs buff just dont touch stamblade.
As for stam DK we'll see but I wouldnt have high hopes.
Actually most of physical dmg abilities when used from stealth applies stun so I would say there is more then one.
Fact that You dont want to play games that doesnt fit You idea of stealth playstyle doesnt looks very objective.
Yes I agree other games have differently looking stealth playstyles but You forget to mention about one thing that all of them have also strong drawbacks to that playsatyles like inability to use it in combat , cooldowns , reduced healing or recovery while in it etc. ESO have no drawback builded into that playstyle at all and kinda mediocre counters that most of the time requires sacrifices from user to be effective so basicly You need to cripple Yourself just to reveal nightblade and then fight him while crippled.
Nb vs nb fight without marks is possible only if both of those nightblades wants to fight. If 1 of them will say "screw it I wont win" then fight is over with a tie.
Fact that nightblade is most played class which means there is also the most of bad players playing it which means lot of easy kills doesnt mean class is weak and that AoE's are reall hardcounters especially against people who knows what to do , and You dont have to be very good at game to know what to do.
I know it's not needed to cloak/dodge spam on stamblade however I pointed out that when someone wants he can make it extremly strong and potent defense while beeing basicly childlishly easy to use. All of that on build that have really strong and also easy to use burst.
I think I dont overestomate anything I know stamblade isnt god that will survive everything and there are encounters he'll find difficult to survive however I am just pointing out that there is 1 particular scenario where his defense becomes very strong and very easy and that type of defense is effective agaisnt too many builds to not be looked at.
I agree that Sload is stupid set. I dont want nightblade to have cloak destroyed or stealthy playstyle to be removed. I just want it to be more skill based and for it to have the middle ground between situations when it's underperforming and situations where it's clearly too strong. Detection potions and Sload are getting nerfed which is buff for cloak so it's time to look at situations where stamblade playstyle can be way too strong. I wouldnt mind to see magblades having much better use of cloak then stamblades which currently is not happening.
Funnily yeah, Stamblades do make better use of Cloak than Magblades. Actually, it is both funny and sad. Lol.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.1 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
ZOS devs: 2muchsense2muchwork tldr
Why they didn't do this is beyond me tbh. Would balance it out.Edited by IZZEFlameLash on July 12, 2018 5:52AMImperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Death Stroke has reduced healing since the game came out. The fact this ability defiles isn't an issue, it's how well defile scales with Befoul CP. Please stop nerfing class abilities to make room for the increasingly bloated CP system.ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/171 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If they make dot still tick than they need to buff stamblade healing.As it is stamblade still have the worst healing out of the stamclasses.Give them minor mending or vitality and I say allow ticks to go through cloak.The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
2 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If they make dot still tick than they need to buff stamblade healing.As it is stamblade still have the worst healing out of the stamclasses.Give them minor mending or vitality and I say allow ticks to go through cloak.The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
"Worse healing out of all the other classes" - been on a stamplar? I could have sworn NB gets minor mending and another healing bonus for slotting a skill. Must be my imagination, right? Also must be my imagination that 15% dodge with heavy is possible, healing after killing a marked target, leeching strikes, minor vitality if you choose to put swallow soul on your bar, crit healing through stealth... What healing disadvantage are you talking about?0 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Have you played ESO?Stamplar has Minor mending.Stamblade do not.Only healing bonus stamblades have is 3 healing receive from slotting leeching strikes.Stamblade can't use shadow disguise to force a crit heal anymore.So we just making crap up now sloting swallow soul on a stamblade shut you mouth.So I guess I can say a stamplar can slot a restro staff and heavy attack and get major and minor mending or slot BOL.I can say stupid stuff as well.
If they make dot still tick than they need to buff stamblade healing.As it is stamblade still have the worst healing out of the stamclasses.Give them minor mending or vitality and I say allow ticks to go through cloak.The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
"Worse healing out of all the other classes" - been on a stamplar? I could have sworn NB gets minor mending and another healing bonus for slotting a skill. Must be my imagination, right? Also must be my imagination that 15% dodge with heavy is possible, healing after killing a marked target, leeching strikes, minor vitality if you choose to put swallow soul on your bar, crit healing through stealth... What healing disadvantage are you talking about?
Do you play ESO my little fantasy online.
If your talking about minor mending from the new agony you dont get it from just sloting it you get it by damaging yourself and using ability that scales off of max magic spell damage and spell crit.If you using that as a argument that stamsorc can us hardened ward and stamplars can use BOL.
@Kadoin
2 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Have you played ESO?Stamplar has Minor mending.Stamblade do not.Only healing bonus stamblades have is 3 healing receive from slotting leeching strikes.Stamblade can't use shadow disguise to force a crit heal anymore.So we just making crap up now sloting swallow soul on a stamblade shut you mouth.So I guess I can say a stamplar can slot a restro staff and heavy attack and get major and minor mending or slot BOL.I can say stupid stuff as well.
If they make dot still tick than they need to buff stamblade healing.As it is stamblade still have the worst healing out of the stamclasses.Give them minor mending or vitality and I say allow ticks to go through cloak.The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
"Worse healing out of all the other classes" - been on a stamplar? I could have sworn NB gets minor mending and another healing bonus for slotting a skill. Must be my imagination, right? Also must be my imagination that 15% dodge with heavy is possible, healing after killing a marked target, leeching strikes, minor vitality if you choose to put swallow soul on your bar, crit healing through stealth... What healing disadvantage are you talking about?
Do you play ESO my little fantasy online.
If your talking about minor mending from the new agony you dont get it from just sloting it you get it by damaging yourself and using ability that scales off of max magic spell damage and spell crit.If you using that as a argument that stamsorc can us hardened ward and stamplars can use BOL.
@Kadoin
So basically, you have no real argument against what I said and you want to buff stam NBs healing even more because you don't want to slot one to two siphoning skills, you don't want to use heavy on a class that can use it better than everyone else and still go on the offensive, and/or don't use cloak to get guaranteed crit heal, which by the way is a massive advantage over any other class. Sorry, but : NO.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Cloak is in a great place right now and doesnt need to be fixed, as I keep saying nightblade are supposed to be hard and elusive to catch and you want to take the theme of the class and ruin it you people just need to learn how to play. Nightblade are suppose to be hard to catch and here Is another thread wanting to remove skill and satisfaction from killing a skillful player who knows how to utilise cloak properly. So many things and mechanics break cloak its laughable and you want to make it EASIER are you for real.
Nothing more than a red herring argument. Nightblades can do fine without being able to spam cloak.
Oh yeah, they just have to slot cancer tank sets & bleeds and play in the same boring way as every other stam class.
This right here is the real issue. If every class would be in a good place with unique feel, then there would be a lot less complains about nbs and magsorcs1 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You don't know how the game works.What you just said is the equivalent of a stamplar using BOL or a stamsorc using Hardened Ward.Also you don't know how cloak work because the removed the ability to force a crit heal a patch or two ago.So lets me break down everything you just said.
Have you played ESO?Stamplar has Minor mending.Stamblade do not.Only healing bonus stamblades have is 3 healing receive from slotting leeching strikes.Stamblade can't use shadow disguise to force a crit heal anymore.So we just making crap up now sloting swallow soul on a stamblade shut you mouth.So I guess I can say a stamplar can slot a restro staff and heavy attack and get major and minor mending or slot BOL.I can say stupid stuff as well.
If they make dot still tick than they need to buff stamblade healing.As it is stamblade still have the worst healing out of the stamclasses.Give them minor mending or vitality and I say allow ticks to go through cloak.The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.
Or even better: let them be invisible and make DoTs still tick. No reason why that skill should stop DoTs. All this time and ZOS still hasn't found a better fix to cloak breaking? That skill will always be overpowered as long as it does this and gives invisibility. The combat programmer(s) are definitely is smart to never show their face(s) on the forums. I can only imagine the rage and questions for them.
"Worse healing out of all the other classes" - been on a stamplar? I could have sworn NB gets minor mending and another healing bonus for slotting a skill. Must be my imagination, right? Also must be my imagination that 15% dodge with heavy is possible, healing after killing a marked target, leeching strikes, minor vitality if you choose to put swallow soul on your bar, crit healing through stealth... What healing disadvantage are you talking about?
Do you play ESO my little fantasy online.
If your talking about minor mending from the new agony you dont get it from just sloting it you get it by damaging yourself and using ability that scales off of max magic spell damage and spell crit.If you using that as a argument that stamsorc can us hardened ward and stamplars can use BOL.
@Kadoin
So basically, you have no real argument against what I said and you want to buff stam NBs healing even more because you don't want to slot one to two siphoning skills, you don't want to use heavy on a class that can use it better than everyone else and still go on the offensive, and/or don't use cloak to get guaranteed crit heal, which by the way is a massive advantage over any other class. Sorry, but : NO.
1.You suggest slot offering which deals Oblivion damage to the user.Scales off of Max magica spell damage and only spell crit.For minor mending which would be offset by the oblivion damage being dealt to yourself.
1b.You suggest slotting Swallow soul as a stamblade. So next are you going to suggest for a stamplar who you said have the weakest healing out of all the stamclass to slot BOL.They don't have a burst heal I guess they can use that.
2.No one said I won't run heavy even running heavy stamblades still have less healing than other stam classes running heavy you know why they have extra boost to healing like mending.
3.You don't know how this ability works. Cloak doesn't work how you think it does.
1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Holy... wall of text.
Let me address a couple of points I feel are worth bringing up, as I don't have time to go through them all:pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.
Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...
Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.
Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).
I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.
Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.
In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).
Lets be realistic "breaking the cloak" is not one sided thing that can be looked at only as doom of nb and the moment after which he's definietly dead. This is the issue with cloak that makes that ability sometimes extremly strong and sometimes underpowered that it hugely depends oh how that cloak was broken and what happened after. There are builds that can break cloak pretty effectively but cant do anything with revealed stamblade since he'll avoid most of their dmg while keeping dmg pressure on them. It's not like Shadow Image ability cant help when cloak fails. Huge benefit that stamblade have over magblade is that even after cloak is broken he can still avoid lot of dmg by roll dodging since he can build up very high stamina recovery because minor berserk and 20% dmg debuff from incap compensate max stamina/wep dmg he sacrifices to get more stam regen. Stamblade can also easily remove snares without sacrificong any parts of his build for that and can get major expedition as a passive which extremly boost both his cloaking and escaping possibilities. All of that without making any special sacrifices , stamblade is just getting it passively. When You have build that can dissapear from fight on demand that build should not have extreme mobility or extreme burst dmg given passively.
Dodge roll is strong, but if you're forced into spamming it you run out of stamina just like you would on any other stam class. Outside stealth stamblade is actually significantly weaker defensively than other classes, DKs/Sorcs have far better mitigation and heals, Warden has Shimmering Shield and so on.
The only thing stamblade really has going for it is cloak and a good spammable.
But back to the topic of dodge roll, there are actually very strong counters to that these days in form of Bombard/Acid Spray, Steel Tornado, DoTs etc - some of those like Bombard/Acid Spray & Steel Tornado actually counter cloak as well.Other stamina classes have class defining defenses. Problem is that on other classes (maybe except stamden) that defenses comes with cost and are not creating extremly stong connections with base game mechanics that basicly makes that class defining ability no brainer in many scenarios and doesnt require sacrifices from user to be very effective.
Yes, other classes need stronger class defenses so they can stop crutching on broken tank sets & bleeds and play other playstyles successfully, just like NB can. I have 4 other stamina characters I'd love to make unique, fun builds for.
Stam DK might be in that spot next patch as wings will be really strong for mobility/mitigation.Nightblade have additional features for cloak. Auto crit from cloak , fact his spammable abilites stun from cloak and set enemy off ballance , more wep/spell dmg in cloak are just few of benefits other then just dissapearing from fight on demand that nightblade have. There are games where the only benefit from that playstyle is just dissapearing and it have cooldown so making stealth playstyle with spammable vanishing ability without any penalties while in it and with additional benefits for use where counters are at best mediocre and situational plus most of the time easy to avoid (even easier after new update)sounds pretty strong. Adding infinite roll dodge spam and teleporting to shade on top of it is just sometimes too much.
There is one skill that gains special effects when attacking from stealth. One.
That and some passive that gives 200 weapon damage to my next light/heavy attack (as that is the first thing to land from stealth) doesn't really cut it.
There might be other games where the only benefit of stealth is the invisibility, but these games have one thing in common: I don't play them and I have no desire to ever play them.
There are good examples of good stealth systems, such as WoW (entire skill bar dedicated to stealth gameplay) or Blade & Soul (better, "camouflage" style stealth, lots of stealth specific skills etc), Thief in GW2 gets a lot of stealth specific abilities and so on.Well guess which class have acces to mark ? It's pretty obvious mark was created just to make nb vs nb fights even possible to exist because otherwise it would be just cloak/dodge fest between just scratching one another. As for Sload goes fact that it reveals from cloak currently is problematic but I wouldnt call iot game breaking until multiple Sload's stack. You still have shade and in proper LoS scenario You'll survive and if You are not in proper LoS scenario well You choosed fight where You are in disadventage so death shouldnt be something supprising.
NB vs NB fights are 100% possible without Piercing Mark (though I do run it as well, mostly for Major Fracture).
I'd say most of my BG kills are from spamming Bombard at NBs trying to dodge or cloak.
On a melee stamblade I just slot either det pots (I always have them hotkeyed) or alternatively Steel Tornado.
It isn't necessarily a cloak/dodge fest if you know how to build a good stamblade.
Also I think you highly overestimate NB survivability.
In this patch I've died many times to just one DoT+Sload outdamaging my Vigor and then 2-3 Skoria procs falling on me while I desperately spend the last of my stamina spamming dodge roll to avoid evaporating, unable to do anything about the damage ticking on me.
The only stamblades who don't have a problem with Sload are tank builds with Troll Kings, Impregnable & whatnot.
Are You even reading what I posted. The main issue with stamblade is that he can get away free with dodge roll penalties because he can wait it in cloak. Other stamnina classes when spamming dodge roll brainlesly are out of stamina after few dodges and then they have to come up with some other ways of defense while still taking damage. Stamblade can spam serie of 5 roll dodges in a row then use vigor go into cloak , heal up without taking any dmg and wait until the dodge roll penatly will be over when in the meantime restoring stamina easily because fact he's not taking dmg also allows him to not spend stamina. He restores stamina heals up and comes back to fight with high health and stamina level. All of that passively with half brained defensive mechanic. Ofc it's not how it always looks like buty it looks like that too many times to not see how problematic that part of stamblade playstyle is. Stamblade is weaker then other classes when he is without cloak ? This is why no cloak stamblades are wrecking people in duels left and right ? Properly geared stamblade can create enough damage pressure to push others into defense so he wont have to defend much.
I read what you posted. What I'm referring to is a scenario where you're countering a stamblade's cloak with hardcounter (Piercing Mark/det pot) or AoE, preventing them from utilizing it to reset the dodge roll cost modifier.
In those scenarios, the visible NB is much more vulnerable than other classes with better mitigation/healing passives & skills.
The reason why no cloak stamblade works in duels largely has to do with their offensive capability, Incap in particular. More on that next...Umm the only good thing stamblade have is cloak and supprise attack ? How about incap the best single target ultimate , or ambush the best gap closer , or relentess focus the best class buff and burst ability , or fear one of the best class hard CC's ?
Incap got deservedly tuned down on PTS and now requires much, much more skill to utilize effectively. In terms of power level it is now on par with DBOS.
Ambush isn't the best gap closer, it's not even a good one. It used to be.
Damage has been nerfed repeatedly patch after patch, Incap doesn't get Empowered anymore by it & they removed the best part of the skill (cloak->ambush+SA combo) in Summerset by making it break cloak when cast.
Best gap closer in the game (by a wide margin) is Empowering Chains.
As for Fear... there's 3 class hard CCs in the game and Fear is the worst of them.
Rune Cage>Fossilize>Fear.
I agree on Relentless Focus though.Yes I agree other games have differently looking stealth playstyles but You forget to mention about one thing that all of them have also strong drawbacks to that playsatyles like inability to use it in combat , cooldowns , reduced healing or recovery while in it etc. ESO have no drawback builded into that playstyle at all and kinda mediocre counters that most of the time requires sacrifices from user to be effective so basicly You need to cripple Yourself just to reveal nightblade and then fight him while crippled.
Nb vs nb fight without marks is possible only if both of those nightblades wants to fight. If 1 of them will say "screw it I wont win" then fight is over with a tie.
You don't need to cripple yourself to reveal a nightblade, not on most classes.
Stam sorc for example can keep Hurricane up on top of a stamblade to prevent them from cloaking. Spin2win with Steel Tornado just to be extra safe...
On my bowblade I can spam Bombard (10k tooltip with Hawk Eye stacks) on another stamblade and there's not much they can do about it (they can't dodge it and they can't cloak it).
There's very slim chances they can escape as they're snared as well by the Bombard & I can easily keep up with them on a 7 medium character. The only way they can fight this build is by going on the offense, being in melee range & sidestepping the Bombards so they miss (the cone is narrow & much easier to avoid near the caster).
Other stamblades are by far the easiest opponents to kill for me right now and I'm not saying this to make a point about them being weak or anything, that's just how it is for my build. I know there are other builds that struggle against them.I agree that Sload is stupid set. I dont want nightblade to have cloak destroyed or stealthy playstyle to be removed. I just want it to be more skill based and for it to have the middle ground between situations when it's underperforming and situations where it's clearly too strong. Detection potions and Sload are getting nerfed which is buff for cloak so it's time to look at situations where stamblade playstyle can be way too strong. I wouldnt mind to see magblades having much better use of cloak then stamblades which currently is not happening.
Well, I can agree with that.
Stealth should be a lot more skill based than what it currently is. The hardcounters to it as well.
Det pot change certainly helps in some ways (i.e. I can avoid engaging people with det pot up & can avoid wasting magicka on cloaks when I know someone has it up), but it's still a hardcounter to stealth. Same with Piercing Mark.1
