Zenimax in regards to nightblades

IZZEFlameLash

You've attracted all forumblades into one place like the flybait. May the best win. Good luck to you.

usmguy1234

KingJ wrote: »

Overpowered class don't you main a magsorc lmaooooooooooooooooooo

Depends on the day. I would accurately describe myself as a jack of all trades master of none.

usmguy1234

DDuke wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

@DDuke

Daus wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.

I disagree with both of those suggestions. Not being able to doesn't make sense. Your opponent can't see you, why would this mean you can't heal? Making it a channel would kill the move since it's usage is reactionary, and not always reliable.

I think the better approach would be to allow DoTs to still work on the individual that's cloaked. Why should someone spontaneously stop bleeding just because no one sees them. Doesn't make sense.

And when those DoTs currently outdamage your healing outside stealth, how is one supposed to survive if they kill you in cloak as well?


I think people really overestimate medium stamblade survivability... courtesy of the tank meta I guess where most people run tank sets & bleeds and shape expectations of how the class performs in general.

I know you suggested a dust trail while cloaked. Do you think this would be the most balanced approach?

@Daus This would be awesome actually.

It was @DDuke 's idea. I liked it as well.

Awesome idea.

Look, I'm not against making NB more difficult to play. Difficult is fun, which is why I'm a big fan of the Incap change for example.


What you get with cost increases & DoTs going through cloak though isn't difficult - it's just frustrating.

And it doesn't make NBs less "overpowered", it just makes them change to tank sets & bleeds rather than cloaks/dodge rolls & burst.


And I even agree that cloak can be frustrating to fight against.

I have a mDK I'm very fond of, I don't like spamming Volatile just to see a NB cloak again and again until I run out of magicka spamming that skill.

I know it's almost impossible to die to a Warden on stamblade.

But I also know you get hardcountered by a lot of things and if you aren't playing one of those tankblades with bleeds... well, SOL I'm afraid.


So camouflage style stealth would make it more enjoyable to play against NBs for Wardens/mDKs (well, everyone really but especially those two classes) and I know it'd make it more enjoyable to play against other NBs as well (the few that somehow escape Bombard spam) on my own.

Another thing they could do without ruining stealth oriented playstyles is making cloak have a cooldown if you get revealed prematurely by things like... Volatile Armor (or any other source of damage).

Boom, cloak abuse eradicated & doesn't mess up stamblades because you can cloak only 2-3 times in a row anyway in noCP/BGs.

Might even help them make smarter decisions in combat.

Agreed and I used increased cost as a catalyst for conversation as I wouldn't wish that on another class honestly as it's painful enough on a sorc and non-nightblade medium armor character. I honestly think the trail thing is a great idea. It's a honest mixture of survivability and counterplay in one simple change.

Joy_Division

Daus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.

I think the better approach would be to allow DoTs to still work on the individual that's cloaked. Why should someone spontaneously stop bleeding just because no one sees them. Doesn't make sense.

I agree with that and would be fine with cloak if it worked that way.

I was told this when ZOS tired to do this, cloak kept breaking and so suppressing DoTs became a way to ensure cloak worked. Unfortunate if that is the case.

Strider__Roshin

Joy_Division wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The fix for cloak is to either prevent healing while cloaked (like mist form) or to make it a bashable channel that can be interrupted if the NB isn’t CC immune.

I think the better approach would be to allow DoTs to still work on the individual that's cloaked. Why should someone spontaneously stop bleeding just because no one sees them. Doesn't make sense.

I agree with that and would be fine with cloak if it worked that way.

I was told this when ZOS tired to do this, cloak kept breaking and so suppressing DoTs became a way to ensure cloak worked. Unfortunate if that is the case.

Ah I remember that.

Strider__Roshin

I stopped using cloak the day they got rid of its purge. I'm not the sneaking type so I just used it to remove DoTs.

Minalan

Any bets the forumblades get this thread shut down by the mods?

Get it right, we are only allowed to complain about Sorcs in these forums. So... nerf sorc into the ground!

Thogard

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

People who complain about cloak don't know how to use mark / mages light / detect pots

This guy gets it why can’t the rest of you?

Because a speed / detect pot doesn’t exist
A stamina / detect pot doesn’t exist

As soon as I use a detect pot on a Stam toon I become 100% kitable.

Thankfully the vast majority of nightblades are so bad at the game that they don’t know how to kite... a skill which is absolutely necessary to learn on any other Stam class.

But we can’t balance around the “average” nightblade because the “average” nightblade is just a collection of players that were too inept to be successful on any other class.

We need to balance as if the person playing the NB was actually a good player on other classes too. It’s a far fetched idea, I know, but there are a few examples out there.

So that brings me back to detect pots. If you use a detect pot, you will lose the fight against an equal or even a less skilled opponent. Why? Because all of the “counters” to cloak are, themselves, easily countered when the person on the sNB has at least a small grasp on how to actually play the game.

Strider__Roshin

Minalan wrote: »

Any bets the forumblades get this thread shut down by the mods?

Get it right, we are only allowed to complain about Sorcs in these forums. So... nerf sorc into the ground!

Screaming so sound?

Grimhallow

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Nope and sorry I refuse to teach reading comprehension. I'll reiterate that I'm not proposing to get rid of cloak and incap but I have a feeling you'll miss that point again.

And that one is called "ad hominem".

Sky_WK

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

You've attracted all forumblades into one place like the flybait. May the best win. Good luck to you.

This - Don't bother, especially on the forums, ZoS hasn't listened to feedback from players in years anyways.

usmguy1234

Grimick wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Nope and sorry I refuse to teach reading comprehension. I'll reiterate that I'm not proposing to get rid of cloak and incap but I have a feeling you'll miss that point again.

And that one is called "ad hominem".

And this one is called "cherry picking."

H4RDFOX

Stop it with the nerfs to an assassin class. A class that originally was designed TO KILL YOU IN CYRO!!!!! What class do you use? What ability do you spam? How do you play defensively, offensively?

Cloak offers a crit strike (shadowy disguise), or a heal/minor protection (Dark cloak) with the speed of other abilities/passives in place. What other ability performs adequately if not better than cloak? Many! Streak stuns, and causes damage, puts you further away at cast. Cloak does not do that. Cloak can be broken, hence the minor protection to dark cloak, because it was an issue many patches ago. You can streak away, and gain massive amounts of distance. You cannot with cloak, you have to find a location and remain crouched so you stealth. So AOE's break stealth, detect pots/poisons. You have many approaches to counter a nightblade. People are pitchforking nerfs to an assassin class, and that is uncalled for. It is a L2P issue, there is not getting around that. I don't always survive engagements as a NB, and I do. Just the same as a sorc you can streak and stun, and streak, then streak again and cast shields. You can't cast anything in stealth that bubbles you, or heals you. They are both viable, and they are not equal. Anyone who wants a nerf to cloak, and NBs in general seem like they are the ones who don't want to die to an assassin class, and want to duel, and feel powerful when they win. I might as well call nerfs to a tanking class for tanking too much, or a healing class for healing too much.

Juhasow

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...

Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.

ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.

Thunderknuckles

H4RDFOX wrote: »

Stop it with the nerfs to an assassin class. A class that originally was designed TO KILL YOU IN CYRO!!!!! What class do you use? What ability do you spam? How do you play defensively, offensively?

Cloak offers a crit strike (shadowy disguise), or a heal/minor protection (Dark cloak) with the speed of other abilities/passives in place. What other ability performs adequately if not better than cloak? Many! Streak stuns, and causes damage, puts you further away at cast. Cloak does not do that. Cloak can be broken, hence the minor protection to dark cloak, because it was an issue many patches ago. You can streak away, and gain massive amounts of distance. You cannot with cloak, you have to find a location and remain crouched so you stealth. So AOE's break stealth, detect pots/poisons. You have many approaches to counter a nightblade. People are pitchforking nerfs to an assassin class, and that is uncalled for. It is a L2P issue, there is not getting around that. I don't always survive engagements as a NB, and I do. Just the same as a sorc you can streak and stun, and streak, then streak again and cast shields. You can't cast anything in stealth that bubbles you, or heals you. They are both viable, and they are not equal. Anyone who wants a nerf to cloak, and NBs in general seem like they are the ones who don't want to die to an assassin class, and want to duel, and feel powerful when they win. I might as well call nerfs to a tanking class for tanking too much, or a healing class for healing too much.

Fox, logic and common sense are all but useless here. At least as long as people only reason emotionally. You're right. The ones calling for nerfs all the time are usually the ones who just don't like being beaten.....ever...by anything.

DDuke

Juhasow wrote: »

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...

Problem is not the cloak itself , problem is connection of roll dodge and cloak which allows to endless avoiding huge part of enemies attacks because when someone else would be drained out of stamina after serie of roll dodges and next roll dodge would be just too expensive for next 4 seconds , stamblade can just cloak , gain stamina back while taking no damage and healing himself plus wait until the roll dodge cost penatly ends and come back with decent amount of stamina to repeat the procces endlesly so even 3 cloaks is more then enough for stamblades to build up potent defensive.

Yep, until you break that cloak once or twice & the stamblade is out of magicka, stuck in dodge roll spam mode like other classes would in medium (if they actually used medium).

I think other classes should have similar class defining skills that let them play builds outside the bleed tank meta.

Juhasow wrote: »

ESO is very exceptional game in that matter because in almost every MMO rogue/assasin (or however You call it) playstyle builds have penatlies and limitations on their vanishing mechanics due to obvious fact how potent and effective those things are.

Sure, but those other MMOs also have far better benefits for using stealth, such as special skills (and entire skill bars in some games) that unlock in stealth.

In those games the counters to stealth mechanics also tend to operate on a cooldown, meaning you can play around them.
You cannot play around Piercing Mark for example (or Sloads on Live).

arkansas_ESO

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

You've attracted all forumblades into one place like the flybait. May the best win. Good luck to you.

angrily buzzes

FORUMBLADES UNITE

IZZEFlameLash

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

You've attracted all forumblades into one place like the flybait. May the best win. Good luck to you.

angrily buzzes

FORUMBLADES UNITE

*Clears throat for Nick Cage imitation* Nooooo not the forum blades aaaaaaaaaaa!

MrDenimChicken

honestly invis pots really make fights against NB's way easier. Invis isn't a big issue. Stealth is sometimes so poopy on magblades that some of the best magblades out there dont even run stealth. Whirling blades, hurricane, templar jabs, mag dk talons are all pretty much automatic stealth revealers. Pretty much the only classes that can't take a NB out of stealth are warden and sorc.

stealth is just so much boom or bust. either its amazingly strong, or its useless. A real way to make it more balanced is to give it a cooldown, but make it so stealth cant be broken given the cooldown.

kadar

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

We really don't want to be removing defile from things. ZOS did a smart thing in reducing Defile duration, not effectiveness or accessibility in this PTS build. If you've been around for a bit you remember all of the tank metas of the past. IMO the most boring thing that could possibly happen is to return to Elder Healbots online.

Feanor

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

H4RDFOX wrote: »

Stop it with the nerfs to an assassin class. A class that originally was designed TO KILL YOU IN CYRO!!!!! What class do you use? What ability do you spam? How do you play defensively, offensively?

Cloak offers a crit strike (shadowy disguise), or a heal/minor protection (Dark cloak) with the speed of other abilities/passives in place. What other ability performs adequately if not better than cloak? Many! Streak stuns, and causes damage, puts you further away at cast. Cloak does not do that. Cloak can be broken, hence the minor protection to dark cloak, because it was an issue many patches ago. You can streak away, and gain massive amounts of distance. You cannot with cloak, you have to find a location and remain crouched so you stealth. So AOE's break stealth, detect pots/poisons. You have many approaches to counter a nightblade. People are pitchforking nerfs to an assassin class, and that is uncalled for. It is a L2P issue, there is not getting around that. I don't always survive engagements as a NB, and I do. Just the same as a sorc you can streak and stun, and streak, then streak again and cast shields. You can't cast anything in stealth that bubbles you, or heals you. They are both viable, and they are not equal. Anyone who wants a nerf to cloak, and NBs in general seem like they are the ones who don't want to die to an assassin class, and want to duel, and feel powerful when they win. I might as well call nerfs to a tanking class for tanking too much, or a healing class for healing too much.

Fox, logic and common sense are all but useless here. At least as long as people only reason emotionally. You're right. The ones calling for nerfs all the time are usually the ones who just don't like being beaten.....ever...by anything.

Stealth is just not good game design, at least not in the environment PvP has in ESO. It's either incredibly powerful or totally useless. Btw, assassin class doesn't mean you should have carte blanche no matter what you do. But a lot of forum NBs seem to have the opinion that an assassin class must mean being untouchable. Yes, there are skills and potions that prevent stealth. They all have their issues, and just add to the dichotomy.

As for Streak - the massive amount of distance is 15m for one streak cast. Every gap closer has 22m. And if you don't run one now every speed pot will outrun streak (or just mount up when the Sorc is stuck in combat for a trillion years).

Vietfox

ItsNebula wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

to remove skill and satisfaction from killing a skillful player

StamBlades take no skill to play lmao. Anyone can hop on one and do good.

@ItsNebula
Are you in PC EU? With a similar username? I'm willing to show you how wrong you are

Sparr0w

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

Cloak is in a great place right now and doesnt need to be fixed, as I keep saying nightblade are supposed to be hard and elusive to catch and you want to take the theme of the class and ruin it you people just need to learn how to play. Nightblade are suppose to be hard to catch and here Is another thread wanting to remove skill and satisfaction from killing a skillful player who knows how to utilise cloak properly. So many things and mechanics break cloak its laughable and you want to make it EASIER are you for real.

Nothing more than a red herring argument. Nightblades can do fine without being able to spam cloak.

Sorcs can do fine without being able to spam shields.

Gprime31

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

You really have that much trouble with Nightblade s?? It’s a l2p issue

Gprime31

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

H4RDFOX wrote: »

Stop it with the nerfs to an assassin class. A class that originally was designed TO KILL YOU IN CYRO!!!!! What class do you use? What ability do you spam? How do you play defensively, offensively?

Cloak offers a crit strike (shadowy disguise), or a heal/minor protection (Dark cloak) with the speed of other abilities/passives in place. What other ability performs adequately if not better than cloak? Many! Streak stuns, and causes damage, puts you further away at cast. Cloak does not do that. Cloak can be broken, hence the minor protection to dark cloak, because it was an issue many patches ago. You can streak away, and gain massive amounts of distance. You cannot with cloak, you have to find a location and remain crouched so you stealth. So AOE's break stealth, detect pots/poisons. You have many approaches to counter a nightblade. People are pitchforking nerfs to an assassin class, and that is uncalled for. It is a L2P issue, there is not getting around that. I don't always survive engagements as a NB, and I do. Just the same as a sorc you can streak and stun, and streak, then streak again and cast shields. You can't cast anything in stealth that bubbles you, or heals you. They are both viable, and they are not equal. Anyone who wants a nerf to cloak, and NBs in general seem like they are the ones who don't want to die to an assassin class, and want to duel, and feel powerful when they win. I might as well call nerfs to a tanking class for tanking too much, or a healing class for healing too much.

Fox, logic and common sense are all but useless here. At least as long as people only reason emotionally. You're right. The ones calling for nerfs all the time are usually the ones who just don't like being beaten.....ever...by anything.

So true^

usmguy1234

Thogard wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

People who complain about cloak don't know how to use mark / mages light / detect pots

This guy gets it why can’t the rest of you?

Because a speed / detect pot doesn’t exist
A stamina / detect pot doesn’t exist

As soon as I use a detect pot on a Stam toon I become 100% kitable.

Thankfully the vast majority of nightblades are so bad at the game that they don’t know how to kite... a skill which is absolutely necessary to learn on any other Stam class.

But we can’t balance around the “average” nightblade because the “average” nightblade is just a collection of players that were too inept to be successful on any other class.

We need to balance as if the person playing the NB was actually a good player on other classes too. It’s a far fetched idea, I know, but there are a few examples out there.

So that brings me back to detect pots. If you use a detect pot, you will lose the fight against an equal or even a less skilled opponent. Why? Because all of the “counters” to cloak are, themselves, easily countered when the person on the sNB has at least a small grasp on how to actually play the game.

This 100%. It's because the counters to cloak are less efficient than the counters to the counter.

lazerlaz

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

Why not just have them delete nightblades altogether and also make block and BOL have the same increase in cost per use like you recommended for cloak?

Thank baby Jesus you don't get to make any decisions.

usmguy1234

lazerlaz wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

Why not just have them delete nightblades altogether and also make block and BOL have the same increase in cost per use like you recommended for cloak?

Thank baby Jesus you don't get to make any decisions.

Like I've said in previous comments it was more of a catalyst to get the conversation started. @DDuke Had a great idea to make a "trail" from the nightblade when they enter stealth.

jaime1982

ItsNebula wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

to remove skill and satisfaction from killing a skillful player

StamBlades take no skill to play lmao. Anyone can hop on one and do good.

Also didn’t know that spamming cloak and hiding until a Zerg Comes to help you Xv1 is skillful??

Anyone can hop on one and do good is hardly the case lol.

ItsNebula

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Zenimax while you are balancing nightblades can you please remove the defile from incap and make cloak increase in cost per use as streak does? I feel this will really be a step in the right direction of balancing this overpowered class.

Most stamblade builds can only use 3x cloak before running out of magicka, i dont see any reason to increase the cost of cloak...

To make the skill actually take skill to use instead of cloaking after your fail gank and running away while spamming cloak.

Most good NBs hardly even pop cloak, and if they do it’s usually to juke the enemy, get a free second or two of vigor without taking damage and to land fhat crit with your next skill.

Most TrashBlades just spam tf outta cloak, call for help in zone then comeback after the Zerg arrives.

NB (stam) is the ONLY class anyone that’s half decent at PvP can just hop on and be half good at. I never PvPd on a sNB until about 4-5 days ago and I’m already able to do small 1vXs on it (1v3-4)